PSA from a practicing dentist: Many of todays dental students will never pay back their loans

[Realitydentalstudent]

Maybe that's fair enough, I'm sure many people who are dental school applicants come from privileged backgrounds. I'm just saying, anyone graduating from dental school even considering the debt is going to be in a much better position than many people with graduate level education.

Yes I agree obviously getting a DDS for half a million would provide you a better net income then if you did not have one. This is an objective statement.

But is that increase in income with half a million dollars in debt really worth it for the time and effort put into getting that degree? The answer to this is completely subjective.
Your answer is "yes" but to many pre-dents the answer would be no if they only knew the impact borrowing that kind of money would have on their "dream doctor lifestyle".

That is the point of threads like this to inform, not to dissuade. If the information dissuades you then that's on you.

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[Daneosaurus]

Yes I agree obviously getting a DDS for half a million would provide you a better net income then if you did not have one. This is an objective statement.

But is that increase in income with half a million dollars in debt really worth it for the time and effort put into getting that degree? The answer to this is completely subjective.
Your answer is "yes" but to many pre-dents the answer would be no if they only knew the impact borrowing that kind of money would have on their "dream doctor lifestyle".

That is the point of threads like this to inform, not to dissuade. If the information dissuades you then that's on you.

I think you and I are in agreement. I guess I read you post more negative than you intended.

 

[y3nd0]

@Daneosaurus

I agree with what Realitydentalstudent has said. You are a special case - married with children and working very hard to make ends meet. I forget the exact average age of dental school matriculants, but it's no more than 25 years old. The majority of my classmates are around 23-24 years old, and I suspect it to be the same at many other schools. Yes, to you, making a net 35K a year is worth the 8 years of pitfire you walk through. But there are still many ignorant applicants/students
(private or state) out there that believe that upon graduation, they'd be netting 200K, and would finish paying off their loans in 4 years while still being able to roll around in their Mercedes.

I really do appreciate the PSA's that are posted up, it reminds me that life after dental school is not sunshine and rainbows, and that I'd possibly be netting around 50K despite my income being around 100K.

Good luck to you on your journey. I'm sure you will do fine!

 

[Daneosaurus]

The answer is for prospective dentists to readjust expectations. will you be able to pay off your loans eventually? yeah sure. will dentistry be as lucrative as you once thought with all the loans you carry? probably not. Will it still be a rewarding career that meets the needs of you and your family? absolutely.

How did this get missed? Great post.

 

[deleted390966]

For people who say debt is not worth it (though I agree that an education shouldn't cost this much): what other careers do you think/imagine you could have gone into?

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

For people who say debt is not worth it (though I agree that an education shouldn't cost this much): what other careers do you think/imagine you could have gone into?

If I had to pay 400k at ~7% I would have reapplied again to try to get into a state school. Or reapply with a military scholarship.

If it didn't work out the second application cycle, I would have continued in my research field or become a pharmacist or optometrist.

If I was REALLY into money. I would have done a compressed nursing degree (3 years) and done a 2 year nurse anesthesiologist program. 5 years of school with an average income of 160k which goes up to over 200k after experience.

 

[deleted390966]

l

 

[Daneosaurus]

You say in the title that many dental students will never pay back their loans. I think that is simply untrue. I'd venture a guess to say that >98% of dental students will be able to pay back their loans.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

Well, look at the Pharmacy forum: the field/market has been supersaturated & job prospect is grim.

You asked me a question, I answered it.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

You say in the title that many dental students will never pay back their loans. I think that is simply untrue. I'd venture a guess to say that >98% of dental students will be able to pay back their loans.

Yes I agree most students will be able to pay back their loans. The major problem I see is if they went with the PAYE program and are unable to pay for the tax bomb due to careless financial management.

 

[doc toothache]

Or reapply with a military scholarship.

A military scholarship is often confused with lottery money.

 

[DentalPSA]

I'm back! Sorry, I was working and spending time with family.

A few things:

1) I never meant to dissuade people from going in to dentistry, only to let you know that the current prices to attend are insane, and that you should take the 20 minutes to calculate your true cost of attendance and make your own educated decision.

2) Please stop saying $400k for private schools. At todays prices, if you are debt-financing your degree, private schools will be at least $500k by time of repayment. Public schools will be closer to 3-400k. You can't argue with basic math. This is 100% debt financed---this does not apply to people who have parents paying for cost of living, or parents paying for half of tuition, or got a scholarship, or have an uncle helping subsidize cost of equipment.

3) To those comparing the tuition to medical school...just for sake of argument- The most expensive private medical schools are 55-57k per year. Average private school tuition is around 50k per year. The cheapest in-state medical schools are as low as 16-20k per year tuition. And still, the price of medical school is too damn high.

And sorry for mentioning Penn as a top school?... back when I was applying we didn't have so many bizarre ranking charts, and Penn was considered pretty awesome as an Ivy league. I guess things have changed?

To those who care, I calculated in my 3rd or 4th post the COA at UCSF and Iowa as well, in-state.

 

[Aestheticbrah]

The irony in these threads is amazing. People who have never held a handpiece in their lives or worked 1 day as a dentist in the real world saying 1/2 million is worth it for a job they have never done.

Vs the real working dentists on dentaltown who mostly agree anything above 250k is not worth it.

But thats none of my bussiness

 

[doc toothache]

Vs the real working dentists on dentaltown who mostly agree anything above 250k is not worth it.

That pretty much eliminates about 2/3 of ds for residents and all but 2 for non residents.

 

[fellowstudent92]

That pretty much eliminates about 2/3 of ds for residents and all but 2 for non residents.

Which are the two? I'd say UConn is worth it for non-resident. COA is 260K though, not 250 K but close enough.

 

[free99]

.

 

[doc toothache]

Which are the two? I'd say UConn is worth it for non-resident. COA is 260K though, not 250 K but close enough.

Puerto Rico and Baylor. UConn may be "close enough", but would not qualify according to the dentaltown gurus.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/2014-cost-of-us-dental-education.1102338/

 

[deleted390966]

Why don't American students do this? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...t-against-tuition-fees-in-central-London.html

 

[beezey]

On average, yes. They specialize more and they get offered cush teaching positions.

But my point was that if someone isnt studying at harvard, they cant complain that they deserve IB-level income. But hell, work the same hours as an IB associate and your income will match them anyways. I dont see any dentists pulling 70-90hr weeks on a consistent basis.

Impressive that you know that before they have even graduated a class.

 

[100111]

Impressive that you know that before they have even graduated a class.

Its not hard to see where a newly established school is gonna rank vs harvard.

 

[sgv]

The irony in these threads is amazing. People who have never held a handpiece in their lives or worked 1 day as a dentist in the real world saying 1/2 million is worth it for a job they have never done.

Vs the real working dentists on dentaltown who mostly agree anything above 250k is not worth it.

But thats none of my bussiness

Seriously bro...I've met at least a dozen people who've opened up to me and say dentistry, as it is experienced in the preclinic lab, is nothing like what they expected as a predent...And they struggle to the point of feeling hopelessly incompetent which leads to their wanting to switch careers...I've met people with an art background say drilling 3D objects is nothing like they've ever done...these people either suck it up by trying their hardest only to reach the bare minimum in clinical acceptability, get past the learning curve and excel, or drop out...

the best we can do as predents is flirt with the idea of becoming a dentist but we never really know if we'll truly like doing dentistry until we sit down and practice on a mannequin for several months...and in the back of our predent minds, we've convinced ourselves that even if we end up not liking dentistry, at least we'll have an upper 90 percentile income that'll offset our perspective of dentistry as just another job, like it is for most of the population, instead of a passion. This is a risk that we all make and sometimes the results are not ideal...

tl;dr - without a healthy income to look forward to by attending a cheap school, the choice of going to dentistry or another field tips the favor to another high paying profession other than dentistry. Because it would really suck to borrow >$400,000 @ 7% interest and find out you hate dentistry. You'll have less than expected disposable income and hate what you do for 75% of your waking hours

 

[free99]

Seriously bro...I've met at least a dozen people who've opened up to me and say dentistry, as it is experienced in the preclinic lab, is nothing like what they expected as a predent...And they struggle to the point of feeling hopelessly incompetent which leads to their wanting to switch careers...I've met people with an art background say drilling 3D objects is nothing like they've ever done...these people either suck it up by trying their hardest only to reach the bare minimum in clinical acceptability, get past the learning curve and excel, or drop out...

the best we can do as predents is flirt with the idea of becoming a dentist but we never really know if we'll truly like doing dentistry until we sit down and practice on a mannequin for several months...and in the back of our predent minds, we've convinced ourselves that even if we end up not liking dentistry, at least we'll have an upper 90 percentile income that'll offset our perspective of dentistry as just another job, like it is for most of the population, instead of a passion. This is a risk that we all make and sometimes the results are not ideal...

tl;dr - without a healthy income to look forward to by attending a cheap school, the choice of going to dentistry or another field tips the favor to another high paying profession other than dentistry. Because it would really suck to borrow >$400,000 @ 7% interest and find out you hate dentistry. You'll have less than expected disposable income and hate what you do for 75% of your waking hours

Couldn't agree more with all of this. When sgv speaks... Listen.

 

[DentalFox]

If there are several of us who are taking on large amounts of debt, then wouldn't we just raise the prices to combat the debt?

 

[y3nd0]

Seriously bro...I've met at least a dozen people who've opened up to me and say dentistry, as it is experienced in the preclinic lab, is nothing like what they expected as a predent...And they struggle to the point of feeling hopelessly incompetent which leads to their wanting to switch careers...I've met people with an art background say drilling 3D objects is nothing like they've ever done...these people either suck it up by trying their hardest only to reach the bare minimum in clinical acceptability, get past the learning curve and excel, or drop out...

the best we can do as predents is flirt with the idea of becoming a dentist but we never really know if we'll truly like doing dentistry until we sit down and practice on a mannequin for several months...and in the back of our predent minds, we've convinced ourselves that even if we end up not liking dentistry, at least we'll have an upper 90 percentile income that'll offset our perspective of dentistry as just another job, like it is for most of the population, instead of a passion. This is a risk that we all make and sometimes the results are not ideal...

tl;dr - without a healthy income to look forward to by attending a cheap school, the choice of going to dentistry or another field tips the favor to another high paying profession other than dentistry. Because it would really suck to borrow >$400,000 @ 7% interest and find out you hate dentistry. You'll have less than expected disposable income and hate what you do for 75% of your waking hours

Best post I've seen you make on SDN.

 

[free99]

If there are several of us who are taking on large amounts of debt, then wouldn't we just raise the prices to combat the debt?

No. Your patients will just walk down the street to the office that charges less.

 

[Sbsox30]

Yea school is expensive, but so are the services that a dentist provides. If one accumulates such debt, they should plan on working more than the average dentist. What if I had the amount of patients to work 50+ hrs a week? One could reduce their loans pretty quickly if they have good clinical skills out of school, and had the opportunity to work 40-50+ hrs/wk. Yea you might have to work 7-5 with no lunch and even sometimes on Saturday, but it will only help you build a patient base once these older dentists begin retiring.

But then again, some people need the instant gratification of the new BMW or Mercedes right out of school

 

[HDP]

Seriously bro...I've met at least a dozen people who've opened up to me and say dentistry, as it is experienced in the preclinic lab, is nothing like what they expected as a predent...And they struggle to the point of feeling hopelessly incompetent which leads to their wanting to switch careers...I've met people with an art background say drilling 3D objects is nothing like they've ever done...these people either suck it up by trying their hardest only to reach the bare minimum in clinical acceptability, get past the learning curve and excel, or drop out...

the best we can do as predents is flirt with the idea of becoming a dentist but we never really know if we'll truly like doing dentistry until we sit down and practice on a mannequin for several months...and in the back of our predent minds, we've convinced ourselves that even if we end up not liking dentistry, at least we'll have an upper 90 percentile income that'll offset our perspective of dentistry as just another job, like it is for most of the population, instead of a passion. This is a risk that we all make and sometimes the results are not ideal...

tl;dr - without a healthy income to look forward to by attending a cheap school, the choice of going to dentistry or another field tips the favor to another high paying profession other than dentistry. Because it would really suck to borrow >$400,000 @ 7% interest and find out you hate dentistry. You'll have less than expected disposable income and hate what you do for 75% of your waking hours

Awesome post!

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

Yea school is expensive, but so are the services that a dentist provides. If one accumulates such debt, they should plan on working more than the average dentist. What if I had the amount of patients to work 50+ hrs a week? One could reduce their loans pretty quickly if they have good clinical skills out of school, and had the opportunity to work 40-50+ hrs/wk. Yea you might have to work 7-5 with no lunch and even sometimes on Saturday, but it will only help you build a patient base once these older dentists begin retiring.

But then again, some people need the instant gratification of the new BMW or Mercedes right out of school

Unfortunately dentistry is not like an office job where you can just clock in more hours as and when you want. The job market is competitive but if you do find a job that offers 40+ hrs a week and are deep in debt, then I'd say jump on it.

 

[longhornpride]

I have quite a few classmates that have undergrad debt, post bach debt, dental school debt, and then were stupid enough to pay insane amounts for a specialty. These people are looking at 700k of debt before interest. There is a reddit thread where a recent endo grad is in debt for for a million dollars of student loans.

 

[y3nd0]

I have quite a few classmates that have undergrad debt, post bach debt, dental school debt, and then were stupid enough to pay insane amounts for a specialty. These people are looking at 700k of debt before interest. There is a reddit thread where a recent endo grad is in debt for for a million dollars of student loans.

Any news/updates on your classmates? (I'm guessing the news is not good.)

Took the liberty of finding the reddit thread. It was posted 11 days ago. Here it is for anyone who was curious: http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfin..._to_pay_off_about_1_million_in_student_loans/

I think this quote says a lot: "This is so scary it should have been a Halloween post."

 

[longhornpride]

Any news/updates on your classmates? (I'm guessing the news is not good.)

Took the liberty of finding the reddit thread. It was posted 11 days ago. Here it is for anyone who was curious: http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfin..._to_pay_off_about_1_million_in_student_loans/

I think this quote says a lot: "This is so scary it should have been a Halloween post."

They all just started so we'll see in a few years. Some of them come from well off families so it's basically paid for but I know of a few that are staring 600k-700k after their residencies. That is just insane.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I'm back! Sorry, I was working and spending time with family.

A few things:

1) I never meant to dissuade people from going in to dentistry, only to let you know that the current prices to attend are insane, and that you should take the 20 minutes to calculate your true cost of attendance and make your own educated decision.

2) Please stop saying $400k for private schools. At todays prices, if you are debt-financing your degree, private schools will be at least $500k by time of repayment. Public schools will be closer to 3-400k. You can't argue with basic math. This is 100% debt financed---this does not apply to people who have parents paying for cost of living, or parents paying for half of tuition, or got a scholarship, or have an uncle helping subsidize cost of equipment.

3) To those comparing the tuition to medical school...just for sake of argument- The most expensive private medical schools are 55-57k per year. Average private school tuition is around 50k per year. The cheapest in-state medical schools are as low as 16-20k per year tuition. And still, the price of medical school is too damn high.

And sorry for mentioning Penn as a top school?... back when I was applying we didn't have so many bizarre ranking charts, and Penn was considered pretty awesome as an Ivy league. I guess things have changed?

To those who care, I calculated in my 3rd or 4th post the COA at UCSF and Iowa as well, in-state.

Heck, my state school costs estimate cost of attendance to be 65K for 4 years. thats about 260K a year not including interest!!

How much can a dentist expect to make working as a salaried position? Cuz with that amount of debt, I aint buying a practice.

But what can you do? There are so many pre dents willing to sign up for these monstrous loans without first thinking if they want a family, or even wants to travel.

 

[Toothydream]

Dec 1st has approached, I recommend reviewing these threads before making a decision!

 

[irishmom]

Our plan is to live off of what I make and use my husbands pay check to pay my loans each month. His entire paycheck. I think we can be fully paid off in 5-7 years.

 

[irishmom]

How much can a dentist expect to make working as a salaried position?

Most dentists are paid commission...usually 30-50 percent of collections. So you need to have a scheduler that knows your minimum needed each paycheck. A DDS I worked with who was a new grad was paid 30% and she knew she needed $15,000 collections every 2 weeks to make her bills and live on.

 

[Faux]

Forgive me, but are loan calculators 100% right? Don't you take out loans per year and each time you take out a loan, interest starts collecting? So isn't the value a bit off in the calculator?

 

[herkulis]

They could not care if you go bankrupt within their first 5 years. There truly needs to be an awakening so people can see what these schools are doing to you guys.

Indeed, and the worst part is that the student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcies, either. 'Wage garnishments until death shall we part', said the modern day's indentured servant.