Psych and military policies

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TexasPhysician

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I'm starting to run across teenagers and young adults wishing to join the military after psych treatment for depression, bipolar, etc. Apparently there are recruiters in my neck of the woods that tells these young adults to stop taking all psych meds and to not bring the topic up again.

Is there a list somewhere of drugs not approved by the military? Will they not accept stable patients on medications? The recruiters don't seem to understand the policy themselves, and my google search failed me.

Does anyone have experience with this?

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in high school i had a good friend taking an SSRI and wanting to join the army. the recruiter told him he had to be off of it for a year before joining. they then kind of encouraged him to not bring it up and say he'd been off of it already.
 
TexasPhysician-

It varies a little by branch, but not much. For most of them, you can't join on psychotropics. If you're already in and are diagnosed with a psych disorder by a military psychiatrist, they can retain you on meds for some disorders, but you're generally ineligible to join on psych meds.

Here are a few of the standards for the commonly seen diagnoses for the Army. They might vary a little by branch, but you'll get the rough idea if people inquire:
  • ADHD: you can join with a past diagnosis as long as you can demonstrate successful academics off meds for 12 months.
  • Psychosis: current or any past history of any psychosis-related disorder will keep you from joining.
  • Mood disorders: current ones disqualify you. If you were under outpatient care for over 6 months or ever under inpatient care, you're disqualified.
  • Anxiety disorders: current or history of any of them (including PTSD) is disqualifying.
  • Personality disorders: disqualifying.
  • Eating disorders: If they lasted longer than 3 months and occured after age 13yo, it's disquallifying.
  • Suicide: gesture or attempt is disqualifying
  • ETOH/drugs: current or history of abuse/dependence is disqualifying

For any of these, recruiters can apply for a waiver, but unless someone brings with them an incredibly in-demand skillset (e.g.: fluent in Arabic/Chinese, physician, lawyer, etc.), odds are they won't have a shot. And some of these (like psychosis and whatnot) aren't waiverable for anyone.

TP- if you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me.
 
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in high school i had a good friend taking an SSRI and wanting to join the army. the recruiter told him he had to be off of it for a year before joining. they then kind of encouraged him to not bring it up and say he'd been off of it already.
Some recruiters do that. If the applicant lies and gets caught, the recruiter gets a slap on the wrist (literally, sometimes just a stern talking-to). The applicant potentially gets a dishonorable discharge that follows them around for the rest of their life and makes them all but unemployable for many jobs (e.g.: some jobs in law enforcement, education, federal work, etc.).
 
good to know the specifics. im surprised by personality disorders.
 
There have been a couple of pretty publicized courses lately that have been really troubling. Some folks have reported being drummed out of the Army with diagnoses of Personality Disorder instead of what sound like possibly Adjustment Disorder, PTSD, or just plain old behavioral issues. As Personality Disorder by nature are not acquired during military service, it is an unreported prior condition and therefore the individual is ineligible for VA benefits after being discharged.
 
I don't have extensive experience with this area but my limited experiences have been consistent with what Notdeadyet mentioned.

Not that is answers your question but the military does have a policy on suicide. If it happens, or if there's a suspected case of suicide it's investigated with a format on how to do it and decide if it's a suicide or not. I had to read all the military policies on this when I did my psychological autopsy grand rounds and presentation at the AA of Forensic sciences.
 
Wow it's really reassuring to know that military recruiters are encouraging applicants to get off their psychotropics and then join the service. That is some legit scary ****.
 
I certainly could be wrong on this because I haven't been in the military, but from what I gather from what I read and hear from friends in it, the culture of being put in the military or face prison or jail time is over. People in it see it as a honor where as before it was seen culturally, by some, as a punishment.

I'm somewhat curious as to the legal implications of refusing someone in (I'm talking existing laws on discrimination) though this is the type of thing that will continue so long as it's not challenged in courts since legislators will likely avoid the issue like the plague.
 
With that list, I'm surprised anyone gets in. We all know they take tons of people with mood d/o, personality d/o ("traits" at the very least), and ADHD, at the very least.
It's not so often that they take these people as that these things develop. Keep in mind that most common age for folks to join the military is 18yo, immediately after high school. You get a lot of folks developing their first mood disorders after that. Personalities are just starting to firmly take shape (though the folks who end up developing the ASPDs are often excluded based on arrest history). I know lots of soldiers with mood disorders, but most of them developed them while in service.

In fact, if anyone develops a predictive test for who will develop psychosis, you'll have a great friend in the Army. It's amazing how many folks develop their first break while in the Army (which isn't too surprising, when you think of it) and then are service-connected VA cases for the rest of their life.
 
Wow it's really reassuring to know that military recruiters are encouraging applicants to get off their psychotropics and then join the service. That is some legit scary ****.
In fairness, most of this is applicant-driven. Here's how it typically comes out:

Recruiter: I notice you are on Celexa.
Applicant: Yeah, I was given it for depression.
Recruiter: Do you suffer from depression now? The military can't take people currently suffering from mental illness.
Applicant: No, I'm not mentally ill. I was just sad in freshman year of high school.
Recruiter: Do you need the medication?
Applicant: No, I guess not. I'm fine now.
Recruiter: Well, if you're taking the medication, it looks like you're still mentally ill. If you don't need the medication, I'd stop taking it and then apply.

I'm sure there are times when recruiters are advising people to quit medications the applicants report that they actually need, but those are probably pretty rare.
I certainly could be wrong on this because I haven't been in the military, but from what I gather from what I read and hear from friends in it, the culture of being put in the military or face prison or jail time is over. People in it see it as a honor where as before it was seen culturally, by some, as a punishment.
Very true. The days of "jail or the military" ended not too long after the military staffed up post-vietnam. College degrees started becoming an entry-level degree but without real steps for working class or poor folks to pay for it, so the GI Bill became a great way to get money for college. It's still viewed as one of the only ways out of poverty for a lot of folks and probably rightly so. If you're a poor kid living in public housing, digging yourself out is a very uphill battle unless you're naturally smart or naturally athletic. The military will take you and give you a means out if you're willing to work hard and develop discipline. It comes at a cost, especially now, but it's an option.

More folks are getting turned away from the military than are getting in at this point. During the height of the war in Iraq, folks were getting crazy waivers for criminal and mental health history, but that's a thing of the past as the military now downsizes. I'm sure it'll all change with the next war.
 
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I'm somewhat curious as to the legal implications of refusing someone in (I'm talking existing laws on discrimination) though this is the type of thing that will continue so long as it's not challenged in courts since legislators will likely avoid the issue like the plague.
The 5th and 14th amendments aren't real keen on real-world examples of the prevention of discrimination, so it was left to legislation to do so and not all anti-discrimination laws apply at the government level. The ADA and age discrimination acts doesn't apply to federal or state governments, for instance.

The biggie for anti-discrimination is probably Title VII of the Civil Rights Act from the sixties. This is the one that stops employers from discriminating ont he basis of race, religion, gender, pregnancy, nation of origin, etc. This one does apply to federal and state governments, but not the military.

Case law established that Title VII doesn't apply to the military. The readings stated that the military is in a unique position in defending the country and has chain of command authority that can't be questioned by everyone in the chain safely. This is why the military has its own set of laws (the Uniform Code of Military Justice).

I think you're right about legislators not lining up to change this. Applying civilian laws whole hog to the military wouldn't work. A wrongful death suit for every soldier killed in combat, lawsuits against the military for violating freedom of travel for every soldier denied leave, lawsuits for violating the first amendment of soldiers punished for telling their master sergeant to F off. Wouldn't fly.

It's interesting watching the military self-regulate without civilian intervention, though. The role of women in combat has changed dramatically in the last 20 years through the military proving to itself of the utility, rather than outside forces legislating it. The repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell was being stymied by those in congress while the military ran its own studies and found it needed to be repealed ASAP and they drove it.

The military is an interesting institution to watch at work from the inside. I think of it kind of as a clydesdale. You can point it in the overall direction of travel, but don't try telling it where to place each foot. That makes for a slow-moving, unhappy, 2,000 pound workhorse that will eat you to the poorhouse regardless of how much it plows.
 
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In fairness, most of this is applicant-driven. Here's how it typically comes out:

Recruiter: I notice you are on Celexa.
Applicant: Yeah, I was given it for depression.
Recruiter: Do you suffer from depression now? The military can't take people currently suffering from mental illness.
Applicant: No, I'm not mentally ill. I was just sad in freshman year of high school.
Recruiter: Do you need the medication?
Applicant: No, I guess not. I'm fine now.
Recruiter: Well, if you're taking the medication, it looks like you're still mentally ill. If you don't need the medication, I'd stop taking it and then apply.

I'm sure there are times when recruiters are advising people to quit medications the applicants report that they actually need, but those are probably pretty rare.

.

Are you actually attempting to justify the practice of even 'suggesting' someone quit their psychotropic medication to be able to join the armed services? This is unbelievable. Here's a good idea, let's take an 18 year old who suffers from depression, take him off his medications, give him a gun, and send him to the middle east to potentially be exposed to unimaginable horrors. I can't think of a worse idea, really I'm trying, and I can't.

Military recruits get away with A LOT as it is. This is bordering on criminal if you ask me.
 
Are you actually attempting to justify the practice of even 'suggesting' someone quit their psychotropic medication to be able to join the armed services? This is unbelievable.
Nope. Re-read what I wrote. Applicants say they no longer suffer from depression. And they truly believe they don't, because they haven't seen a psychiatrist in years and keep taking the SSRI their PCP provides.

So the applicant tells the recruiter they no longer need a medication. The medication the applicant says he no longer needs will stop him from joining so the recruiter says "if you don't need it, don't take it." Neither the applicant nor the recruiter really know how the SSRI works, but then again, neither do a lot of doctors.
Here's a good idea, let's take an 18 year old who suffers from depression, take him off his medications, give him a gun, and send him to the middle east to potentially be exposed to unimaginable horrors.
I'm in the Army serving in the Reserve Corps in a mental health role, which involves a lot of work helping soldiers deal with issues of trauma after their return. I know you're just being flippant, but many folks have a very very intimate understanding of what war does to a soldier.

Your point and whopper's are great because they raise the balancing act the military has to deal with. You can't take everyone who wants to join, because many of those struggling with mental illness will have their illness exacerbated by the stresses of military training and life, let alone war. On the other hand, you can't vilify mental illness and assume that everyone slapped with a DSM diagnosis is unable to hold down a stressful job like the military and patronizingly just exclude everyone from joining. It's particularly frustrating for some when you dangle the only way out of poverty for some of these people and then pull it away from them because essentially you're saying that they can't hack it.
Military recruits get away with A LOT as it is. This is bordering on criminal if you ask me.
I think you mean recruiters. And while I understand your sentiment and though you may have a lot more experience with them than I do, my interaction with the vast majority of them are honest men and women doing a very difficult job. Upper-middle class suburban kids ain't exactly lining up in droves to go to war for their country, so the main folks who step up to the plate tend to be poor. Many of them come from tough backgrounds, which often includes stressors that lead to bad experiences with mental health and the law. Recruiters have to deal with these subtleties even though they are not lawyers or doctors so they do the best they can. Again, some recruiters lie, but most don't. Getting a caught in a lie in the military gets you in a world of trouble that you don't see as a civilian.

I serve in uniform part-time but I'm no hawk. I don't like war or what it does. Never mind this war, I'm already against the next one, thank you very much. The effects of war are exactly why I joined. But I think the stereotype of evil recruiters getting people to lie about their background is just that: stereotype. Some will fit that mold, but when you use that brush, you also paint a lot of good people in an unfair light.
 
It's not so often that they take these people as that these things develop. Keep in mind that most common age for folks to join the military is 18yo, immediately after high school. You get a lot of folks developing their first mood disorders after that. Personalities are just starting to firmly take shape (though the folks who end up developing the ASPDs are often excluded based on arrest history). I know lots of soldiers with mood disorders, but most of them developed them while in service.

In fact, if anyone develops a predictive test for who will develop psychosis, you'll have a great friend in the Army. It's amazing how many folks develop their first break while in the Army (which isn't too surprising, when you think of it) and then are service-connected VA cases for the rest of their life.

Totally true. Certainly for psychosis. Much of the other stuff, the ADHD, the mood problems, the personality traits have started to manifest by this time though.

They're certainly in a tough spot. By definition, anyone who wants to shoot other people shouldn't be allowed to, but those are a subset of the people who sign up, so what do you do?

*Disclaimer* Not trying to bash our military. I'm proud of our honorable soldiers, and what they do, and have done for us. But, the military should do a better job of monitoring or rejecting people, as this shooting, and the incident with the urinating on the dead bodies proves.
 
In fact, if anyone develops a predictive test for who will develop psychosis, you'll have a great friend in the Army

I read in a Carlat Report from about a year ago that someone developed psychological testing that could help to demonstrate if someone was in the prodrome stage of schizophrenia. The problem being is that it needed a heck of a lot more work before it was going to be released, though it's results at that time were promising.

Had my second patient that I believed as in the prodrome phase of schizophrenia unfortunately confirmed last week. The lady was diagnosed with MDD with psychotic features and discharged from the hospital and her psychosis was truly bizarre and her depression was very weak making me think it was prodrome and late-onset (she's in the late 30s.). After several discussions where I told her I couldn't tell with certainty, there really was no way to tell, that if it was MDD with psychotic features, stopping the antipsychotic should likely cause no problems and get rid of side effects she had, but if it were prodrome there would likely be hell to pay in the future, she opted to stop the antipsychotic. Four months later, she's hospitalized again for pure psychosis (UDS is negative, no prior drug abuse). It had to be the prodrome phase.

Like so many things in psychiatry it's holding the wolf by the ears. You don't want to stop the antipsychotic but you don't want to continue it either unless you're sure.
 
The biggie for anti-discrimination is probably Title VII of the Civil Rights Act from the sixties.

I'm thinking more along the lines with the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. I haven't double-checked it recently (it was required reading in forensic fellowship). I'm basing this off of memory and I'm not double-checking it this moment because I'm taking care of my infant daughter today.

It has a clause that people with disabilites are those with "a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits a major life activity."

Mental illness definitely fits that criteria. However one with disabilities are not given free-reign to do ANYTHING they want that someone without disability could do. E.g. a blind-man cannot be allowed to drive a bus, but at the same time, one cannot be discriminated against in terms of hiring or firing so long as they are able to do the job despite their disability.

So my argument is, could a guy that has mental illness but is stable on meds and has been for years be eligible for anything in the military? Even a desk job? I believe there is room for argument unless the law made a specific provision where the military doesn't count. (Does it? Again, I or someone else could double-check it).

A reality with anti-discrimination laws is that despite that it is illegal to discriminate in several instances thanks to these laws, it still happens all the time. The only way to fight it is to go to court, and most people don't opt to do that. IMHO the reality will be that those with mental illness that are denied being hired will simply just let it go and accept it instead of fighting it in court, and I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just a statement on what's really going on.
 
Are you actually attempting to justify the practice of even 'suggesting' someone quit their psychotropic medication to be able to join the armed services? This is unbelievable.

The armed forces are shooting themselves in the foot. And by 'themselves' I am referring to our solders. This ridiculous screening methodology (ie "go off your meds, and see if you're cured!") is one of the reasons why ppl on active duty have a higher rate of psychiatric illness vs the general population. Obviously it's not very 'fun' illness from the perspective of the practitioner, ie no psychosis, but as many as 10% of armed forces have serious mental health problem such as etoh dependence. It seems that's about double the prevalence of the general population

I see a lot of not true information here, but I don't feel like getting into one of those lovely online arguments, so I'll just say one thing: The selection process is such that a lot of leeway is given to the evaluators, and there very few absolute reasons for disqualification from joining the armed forces.

The military absolutely accepts people with previous suicide attempts and a hx of etoh dependance. In fact, the entire screening process for applicants is completely dependent on how desperate they are. For example, right now the air force is operating at 100% so the fact that you went to some AA meetings last year would mean you wouldn't be able to join as a specialist. But if you're a lawyer and approach the navy, they would not care as long as they deemed it a resolved issue.

To me, standards mean you keep the bar at a certain level across all people. But the armed forces change their entry requirements for a few people to meet their quotas, and in doing so they do a disservice to everyone, including the men and women they employ.
 
I read in a Carlat Report from about a year ago that someone developed psychological testing that could help to demonstrate if someone was in the prodrome stage of schizophrenia. The problem being is that it needed a heck of a lot more work before it was going to be released, though it's results at that time were promising.

Had my second patient that I believed as in the prodrome phase of schizophrenia unfortunately confirmed last week. The lady was diagnosed with MDD with psychotic features and discharged from the hospital and her psychosis was truly bizarre and her depression was very weak making me think it was prodrome and late-onset (she's in the late 30s.). After several discussions where I told her I couldn't tell with certainty, there really was no way to tell, that if it was MDD with psychotic features, stopping the antipsychotic should likely cause no problems and get rid of side effects she had, but if it were prodrome there would likely be hell to pay in the future, she opted to stop the antipsychotic. Four months later, she's hospitalized again for pure psychosis (UDS is negative, no prior drug abuse). It had to be the prodrome phase.

Like so many things in psychiatry it's holding the wolf by the ears. You don't want to stop the antipsychotic but you don't want to continue it either unless you're sure.

There is a multi-center consortium of researchers/labs attempting to prospectively follow and identify prodromal individuals, and grappling with not only diagnostic questions but questions as to when to intervene and in what way, and for how long. Much more complex questions than simply creating a psychometric test. These research groups do entire batteries and still only get moderate validity at best.

Kristin Cadenhead is a great psychiatrist I trained under who has one of these labs (runs the CARE program at UCSD), which is part of the COGS group (Harvard, Mt. Sinai, UCLA, UCSD, UColorado, UPenn, UWashington).
 
I'm thinking more along the lines with the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.
You're right that the ADA covers mental or physical disability.
So my argument is, could a guy that has mental illness but is stable on meds and has been for years be eligible for anything in the military?
Probably not. The mentally ill who are dependent on medications would be ineligible for joining for the same reason that insulin-dependent diabetics are ineligible for joining: the military evaluates someone's suitability for the military in the absence of medications. Given that the military often operates in austere environments in which they can't guarantee a steady supply of medications, any disease that requires regular medication for an individual's safety usually makes the ineligible for enlistment. That's why some of the requirements require you to demonstrate suitability without your meds.

The language of the ADA prohibits organizations from having any eligibility criteria for participation that screens out people with disabilities unless the organization can show that those requirements are necessary for the provision of the program. The military can legally screen out people with IDDM and psychosis for the same logic that the fire department can screen out people with certain physical disabilities: those disabilities render the individual unsafe for the position in environments that the individual could reasonably face in their duties.
Even a desk job? I believe there is room for argument unless the law made a specific provision where the military doesn't count. (Does it? Again, I or someone else could double-check it).
A disabled individual could apply for a desk job in the military, as a civilian. But in the military you enlist in the branch of service and need to meet basic eligibility for the branch before you need to meet specialty requirements. In other words, even the cooks and truck drivers in the Army need to be able to do a certain number of push-ups and fire a rifle safely. And there have been more than a handful of cooks and truck drivers firing at the enemy in our current war.
 
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The armed forces are shooting themselves in the foot. And by 'themselves' I am referring to our solders. This ridiculous screening methodology (ie "go off your meds, and see if you're cured!") is one of the reasons why ppl on active duty have a higher rate of psychiatric illness vs the general population.
The screening methodology doesn't seem to ridiculous to me: if you suffer from certain types of mental illness that requires regular medication for your safety in the military environment (e.g.: high stress, high stakes, etc.), you are ineligible for joining. It's because the military can't guarantee your access to that medication.

Individuals going off their medications with a doctor's supervision I have mixed feelings about. I've had more than a couple people who have been on SSRI's for 5 and 10 years because of a single short episode of uncomplicated depression that have never been trialed without their meds. Scary....
Obviously it's not very 'fun' illness from the perspective of the practitioner, ie no psychosis, but as many as 10% of armed forces have serious mental health problem such as etoh dependence. It seems that's about double the prevalence of the general population
Great article, I reference it a fair bit. Dr. Hoge is one of the biggies in PTSD research. This one is a good read.

There are two things to keep in mind when comparing the mental health problem rates of soldiers vs. the general public: 1) soldiers are not a good sampling of the general public and skew lower on the socioeconomic ladder; 2) the most dangerous thing the general public regularly does is commute to work. The former is significant because rates of trauma exposure and mental illness are higher in lower socioeconomic communities. The latter is relevant because rates of PTSD, depression, anxiety, and adjustment DO's take a big jump up after time in the military which involves frequent disruptions and exposures that civilians typically don't face.

Incidentally, I have a hunch that the prevalence for mental illness is a good bit higher than when that study was first done. There's been a lot more bodies sent to war since then, and war at a hotter tempo than when he did his surveys.
The selection process is such that a lot of leeway is given to the evaluators, and there very few absolute reasons for disqualification from joining the armed forces.
True. All of the things I mentioned above are disqualifying. Period. But applicants can file an appeal that is then judged, studied and ruled upon. Which is really as it ought to be, imho. There's the "problem child" that was determined to have ADHD when on re-evaluation it was obvious it was more disciplinary in nature. There is the person who qualified for alcohol abuse by DSM criteria, but does not have what appears to be a concerning relationship with alcohol now. A suicidal gesture that involved cutting as a means of getting a parent's attention during a divorce can be judged to not be evidence of persistent mental illness. Exceptions are made on a case by case basis.

Which is fine with me. I was first disqualified for service based on the fact that I take a daily medication. I had to file an appeal that stated that even if interrupted from this daily medication, it would not have a potential to put myself or my fellow soldiers at risk. I was DQ'd for a statin, but was given a waiver.
In fact, the entire screening process for applicants is completely dependent on how desperate they are.
You're absolutely right. When the wars were hot and heavy, waivers were approved at a much faster rate. With the military downsizing now, they are hard to come by. This has always been the way with the military. When they have trouble staffing up, they lower requirements. When they are overstaffed, they make it harder to get in. Of course that's true of most industries.
To me, standards mean you keep the bar at a certain level across all people. But the armed forces change their entry requirements for a few people to meet their quotas, and in doing so they do a disservice to everyone, including the men and women they employ.
I'm not sure if you're talking about the waivers or the requirements. Waivers are case by case and requirements don't change unless there's a crisis. Requirements were lowered a fair bit over the last 10 years, as the wars was making it very hard to keep a pipeline. You get a lot of eager beavers when a war first breaks out and enlistment numbers rise; giive it a year of what looks like a prolonged war and those numbers plumet. They raised the max age ceiling for enlistment for one thing and went softer on some of their moral clauses (dropped some minor legal offenses as disqualifying). Some would say lowering qualifications was a mistake, but the military (Army especially) was so understaffed that they didn't really have a choice. Even with lowered standards, the deployment schedules were at a tempo unheard of in the past. I know several folks with 5 deployments. You didn't see that with any regularity even during Vietnam and WWII.

The only alternative to this policy of changing enlistment requirements is to institute a draft or stay out of lengthy wars. Some folks would make the argument that doing the first would lead to the second. Fellows in Switzerland have mandatory military service and I don't see them in too many wars...
 
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Healthy discussion, all. With suicide and PTSD rates being what they are, more attention paid to service men and women coming in, going through, and coming out of the military would be a very welcome thing. We'll all be paying for it one way or the other.

If anyone's interested in taking a hands-on role in military mental health on a part-time basis, feel free to PM me. It's very rewarding. Intrinsically, if not financially.
 
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...Even with lowered standards, the deployment schedules were at a tempo unheard of in the past. I know several folks with 5 deployments. You didn't see that with any regularity even during Vietnam and WWII.

We've been fighting these two wars for 10 years now.
Active American involvement in WW2 was less than 4 years.
Main US combat troop involvement in Vietnam ran 1965-1973--8 years.

Amazing to me that this is the longest US armed conflict...
 
Amazing to me that this is the longest US armed conflict...
You ain't alone....

And VN and WWII both shared the wealth via the draft instead of calling back the same people to war again and again and again.

I can't help but think that a draft would see lots of armchair hawks with different attitudes. Easy to rattle the saber knowing folks from your zip code won't be heading to the sandbox.
 
Unless that country develops, I don't see an end in sight.

The screening methodology doesn't seem to ridiculous to me:

Interesting point. I see the reasoning behind whether or not the person needs meds or not mentality.
 
You ain't alone....

And VN and WWII both shared the wealth via the draft instead of calling back the same people to war again and again and again.

I can't help but think that a draft would see lots of armchair hawks with different attitudes. Easy to rattle the saber knowing folks from your zip code won't be heading to the sandbox.

I don't know...with the reliance on deployments of National Guard and Reserve units, there's nary a Zip Code unaffected. I've known several folks from local units deployed, including psychiatrists and other so-called "normal people". Then there's the crazy waves of pseudo-patriotism when it comes down to "The Troops defending our freedom"... (Excuse me? How does that work again? Invading a country that had nothing to do with a terrorist attack to avenge/prevent(?) terrorism, thereby killing more American soldiers than people who died on 9/11? To say nothing of "collateral damage"...) Anyway, everytime I see a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker, I want to yell back--"You want to support the troops? End the ****ing wars!"
 
Then there's the crazy waves of pseudo-patriotism when it comes down to "The Troops defending our freedom"..

Hmm, OPD, I'm starting to think you're one of those people that hate America. Do you drive a Hummer to show your support to the troops? I bet you're one of those people that believe in the myth of global warming. Maybe you're even an athiest.

(Yes I am joking).
 
Hmm, OPD, I'm starting to think you're one of those people that hate America. Do you drive a Hummer to show your support to the troops? I bet you're one of those people that believe in the myth of global warming. Maybe you're even an athiest.

Hush! You're going to reveal OPD's true identity as Walter Mondale...
 
I don't know...with the reliance on deployments of National Guard and Reserve units, there's nary a Zip Code unaffected.
I hear folks spin this for the "we're all in this together vibe" (I know that's not your intent) but I think it's mostly smokescreen. You have some docs and JAG folks who are either top-5% wage earners or well on that path and some business types that are in as officers. But at the end of the day, if you look at who makes up the 90% or 95% of people fighting the war, it's the same folks we've always had fight our wars. I think you probably have to go back to WWII to find a U.S. war fought by something resembling the populace that ultimately had them go fight it.

If this sounds bitter, it's because I write poorly. I just find it frustrating to hear all the chest beating when the folks I know back from multiple deployments are run so ragged. It's a lot easier to support prolonging a fight or looking for a new one (Iran? Really???) when at the end of the day it's not you or your brother or your sister or your child that are going to be off doing the fighting. "I know a guy at work" or "My wife's brother's cousin" doesn't really give people enough skin in the game to hesitate before pointing the gun at the next war. If you're so gung-ho about fighting a new war, enlist or send your kid. The current trigger-pullers could use a break right about now, thank you.
I've known several folks from local units deployed, including psychiatrists and other so-called "normal people".
Interesting use of "normal." Most soldiers I've met seem a lot more normal than most psychiatrists I know... ;-)
Anyway, everytime I see a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker, I want to yell back--"You want to support the troops? End the ****ing wars!"
Amen to that. This is one I like.
 
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Hush! You're going to reveal OPD's true identity as Walter Mondale...
I was thinking more of Jimmy Carter. We could use us some more of that dude... Would have loved to have had him in office in fall of 2001.
 
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I can't help but think that a draft would see lots of armchair hawks with different attitudes. Easy to rattle the saber knowing folks from your zip code won't be heading to the sandbox.

It's had to imagine a draft working well today, unless the military relaxed its standards tremendously. Probably less than 50% would meet the military's standards- due to problems like obesity, asthma, psych hx, etc. If people tried to game the system (for example, by gaining a few pounds to put them over the weight limit or get their pcp to prescribe them an SSRI) I can easily imagine only 10% of young men meeting standards.

Does anyone know the % of men who received medical deferments during the Vietnam draft era?
 
It's had to imagine a draft working well today, unless the military relaxed its standards tremendously.
Politically, the draft would go over like a lead balloon. But I actually hadn't thought of the fact that there would also be such a relatively small pool to draft from.

Obesity alone. I read an article that mentioned that 27% of Americans 17-24 would be ineligible for military service just based on height-weight standards. The military has started pouring money into fighting childhood obesity. The irony is that the military was a big driver behind getting congress to pass the national school lunch program back in the 40's because too many kids were underweight and it was worrying them.

Does anyone know the % of men who received medical deferments during the Vietnam draft era?
33% of whites vs. 25% of blacks.
 
Some recruiters do that. If the applicant lies and gets caught, the recruiter gets a slap on the wrist (literally, sometimes just a stern talking-to). The applicant potentially gets a dishonorable discharge that follows them around for the rest of their life and makes them all but unemployable for many jobs (e.g.: some jobs in law enforcement, education, federal work, etc.).


I wonder what the possible legal ramifications would be if a military recruiter told a potential recruit to discontinue an antidepressant ( as the recruit stated they were "feeling fine") , and this recruit then later committed suicide while in training. Obviously recruiters are not trained in psychiatry, and a recruit may not have the best insight into their depression at this time, particularly when their is a strong financial incentive to stop psychiatric medication.

As you say, the military has an appeal to more economically challenged populations - i.e. post # 15 ( particularly the lower paying / less skilled fields of the military). I believe an argument could be made that this sort of practice would seem to be taking advantage of such a population ( i.e. depressed poor people - quite a few out there).
 
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I wonder what the possible legal ramifications would be if a military recruiter told a potential recruit to discontinue an antidepressant ( as the recruit stated they were "feeling fine") , and this recruit then later committed suicide while in training.
Probably none. The Feres Doctrine states that the military can't be sued for Injuries done to members of the armed services. This is why you dont have several thousand lawsuits for wrongful death right about now.
 
Active American involvement in WW2 was less than 4 years.

Well...better late than never.

(only joking...sort of)

I read an article that mentioned that 27% of Americans 17-24 would be ineligible for military service just based on height-weight standards. The military has started pouring money into fighting childhood obesity. The irony is that the military was a big driver behind getting congress to pass the national school lunch program back in the 40's because too many kids were underweight and it was worrying them.

What this ironically demonstrates is that it is health that is the critical factor not height/weight ratios.

One of the driving forces behind the formation of the National Health Service (NHS) in the UK during the 1940's was experience of not being able to get enough healthy recruits to the military starting with the Boer Wars.

(other factors came into play but it was part of the policy formation process that helped the Prime Minister Bevin get his wish for an NHS)
 
Probably none. The Feres Doctrine states that the military can't be sued for Injuries done to members of the armed services. This is why you dont have several thousand lawsuits for wrongful death right about now.

Yup, you're pretty much straight up ****ed if something happens to you. This hardly diminishes my argument that the poor are taken advantage of - what a surprise.
 
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