Psychiatry a good career?

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Doc driven

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I'm motivated to be a psychiatrist and will be starting DO school. I am getting negative feedback from my family. They say the stigma is bad and the money is horibble. I honestly don't care what people think because I love the field. However, can someone please confirm that a DO psychiatrist can make some money? My family says anethesiology or radiology. Can't a good psychiatrist make a ton of money anyways? I value your wisdom and appreciate your time.

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I didn't know psychiatry had a stigma attached. I thought it was an honorable profession. And I thought the money was really good. You are the only one who is going to have to get up and go to your job every day. Not your family or anyone else.
 
I didn't know psychiatry had a stigma attached. I thought it was an honorable profession. And I thought the money was really good. You are the only one who is going to have to get up and go to your job every day. Not your family or anyone else.

I know. Thanks for the backup. I think the money can even be better than anethesiology or radiology.
 
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Tell your family to go pound sand or do some other thing more useful with their time than telling you what you should be in your early medical school career. Tell them that if they want to take your exams and get up at 4:30am to round on surgery patients as an MSIII then by all means, they can pick your specialty. Otherwise, I firmly believe they should shut their collective yaps. Jesus christ.
 
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Tell your family to go pound sand or do some other thing more useful with their time than telling you what you should be in your early medical school career. Tell them that if they want to take your exams and get up at 4:30am to round on surgery patients as an MSIII then by all means, they can pick your specialty. Otherwise, I firmly believe they should shut their collective yaps. Jesus christ.

That is what I feel like saying, but I don't think they realize there being like this. I'll just stick to my guns and do what I want. There not totally against it; there just suggesting alternatives. As of right now, psychiatry is where I am headed.
Thanks,
Doc driven
 
per hour, psychiatrists make a lot. I think that if you work hard (i.e. 50 hours a week), you should easily make $200k+ if you bill correctly. Remember that many primary care docs and surgeons work 60-70 hours per week (or even more). Yikes!
 
That is what I feel like saying, but I don't think they realize there being like this. I'll just stick to my guns and do what I want. There not totally against it; there just suggesting alternatives. As of right now, psychiatry is where I am headed.
Thanks,
Doc driven

Could be a few reasons why they're having trouble with it. a) They may just not be aware of what psychiatrists make or they're on extremely wealthy and have different standards. Psychiatrists do just fine finacially--I believe the latest # is an average of 180K after working a few years. That # increases if you subspecialize. b) There continues to be a large negative stigma attached to those with mental health diseases and that ends up reflecting on those who treat them. i.e. there continues to be a lot of misconceptions about mental illness. c) A lot a parents are very proud to tell their family and friends that they're child is in medical school. They may feel a loss of pride when they tell others their child is now going into one of the least "prestigious" fields in medicine.

Overall, you really need to ask yourself if you like psychiatry. If it is something you can see yourself doing and enjoying, then it is an outstanding field to go into. Not only can you spend your days helping others live a more satifisfying and productive life, but the hours and pay, in my opinion, are great.

Good luck. :luck:
 
I love all your responses because they have been positive. Thanks for the info! Doc driven
 
Well, there's one more side to it, actually. I am in a similar situation, in a way. I studied medicine abroad, and after passing the Steps I am starting the psychiatric residency this summer. And I really don't know if I'm excited about it or rather not. I have little interest in other fields of medicine, and psychiatry was always my destination, since the beginning of the medical school. But let me tell you, if I had to do it again, I would probably not go there.

Why? Not because of the "stigma" or monetary concerns. But because psychiatry today, as I now know it, seems to be fundamentally wrong. It is just not helping people. I mean, it is not that unusual, there are other professions that do not help people either, like advertising or politics :=), so if you only care about money, don't worry - the money is good. But if you think of becoming a psychiatrist out of your good will, and hoping to really help people - your professional life will be bumpy. You will be an outcast, because The System has different goals in mind.

So, my advice to you: try to spend at least six months to a year in a real psychiatric hospital; be a volunteer or work in some auxiliary capacity. See what is really going on, not what the media is telling you. Then you will be able to make an informed decision.

Good luck!
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skpsycho (skpsycho.wordpress.com)
 
I'm motivated to be a psychiatrist and will be starting DO school. I am getting negative feedback from my family. They say the stigma is bad and the money is horibble. I honestly don't care what people think because I love the field. However, can someone please confirm that a DO psychiatrist can make some money? My family says anethesiology or radiology. Can't a good psychiatrist make a ton of money anyways? I value your wisdom and appreciate your time.

Psychiatry is the best kept secret in medicine - but considering that 14 of my classmates are going into the field, I don't know how much of a secret it is anymore.
 
Well, there's one more side to it, actually. I am in a similar situation, in a way. I studied medicine abroad, and after passing the Steps I am starting the psychiatric residency this summer. And I really don't know if I'm excited about it or rather not. I have little interest in other fields of medicine, and psychiatry was always my destination, since the beginning of the medical school. But let me tell you, if I had to do it again, I would probably not go there.

Why? Not because of the "stigma" or monetary concerns. But because psychiatry today, as I now know it, seems to be fundamentally wrong. It is just not helping people. I mean, it is not that unusual, there are other professions that do not help people either, like advertising or politics :=), so if you only care about money, don't worry - the money is good. But if you think of becoming a psychiatrist out of your good will, and hoping to really help people - your professional life will be bumpy. You will be an outcast, because The System has different goals in mind.

So, my advice to you: try to spend at least six months to a year in a real psychiatric hospital; be a volunteer or work in some auxiliary capacity. See what is really going on, not what the media is telling you. Then you will be able to make an informed decision.

Good luck!
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skpsycho (skpsycho.wordpress.com)

Wow I don't even know where to begin.

Last I checked we live in a capitalistic society and things are done out of good will to some extent. Things have to be proven effective and there's only so much you can do for each single person. Add to that, we only have a limited number of resources. We have to do our best with what we can.

People in this country and (people in general) tend to crave excitement and money. As a result, you'll have most of the resources flowing to those in the entertainment/sports and money management businesses. People tend to not care about their health until they really need to. It's an afterthought. And they often expect for it to be taken care of by someone else.

I firmly believe that doctors among a few other notable professions (teachers, nurses, firefighters) are truly in it to help other people. Sure we and these other professions make a decent wage, but if you think anyone is in any of these fields for the money they are in it for the wrong reasons, because the money is much better else where.

I get the sense that your expectations with how much help you'd like to deliver and the point you are at are clearly not in sync. I think realistic expectations and goals are very important, especially in a sense of fulfillment.
 
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Wow I don't even know where to begin.<...>


Thanks for your reply. What you say is very reasonable, and I pretty much agree with it. What I can't establish, though, is whether you are criticizing my point or supporting it :=)

Yes, there are limitations in the resources available to take care of people's health. Although it is not the lack of resources that I am worried about. It is the way those resources are used. It is almost like asking whether $100 is enough for a meal. Not if you go to a fancy restaurant, but enough to feed a small family for a week if you cook yourself. Same thing here. A lot of money in the US health care system is wasted on unnecessary procedures and drugs, as well as the financial and legal matters not directly concerning patient care. Little attention is paid to preventive care and lifestyle education. If this is because "we live in a capitalistic society", alas. But even that was not my point.

I was specifically talking about psychiatry. In psychiatry, there are powerful financial forces promoting the excessive use of drugs, ECT and other "quick-fixes" a la short-term behavioral therapies. The mysterious depths of the human soul are pushed aside as irrelevant. The protective capabilities of critical psychological states like depression are ignored. The approach to human problems is superficial, and the vision of help is more of an immediate fix than a gradual process of reaching internal peace and psychological growth.

This is what is going on. If you're the kind of person that is okay with this philosophy, you will be very happy in psychiatry. But if not, the trouble awaits you.

So, what do you think about it?
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skpsycho (skpsycho.wordpress.com)
 
Thanks for your reply. What you say is very reasonable, and I pretty much agree with it. What I can't establish, though, is whether you are criticizing my point or supporting it :=)

Yes, there are limitations in the resources available to take care of people's health. Although it is not the lack of resources that I am worried about. It is the way those resources are used. It is almost like asking whether $100 is enough for a meal. Not if you go to a fancy restaurant, but enough to feed a small family for a week if you cook yourself. Same thing here. A lot of money in the US health care system is wasted on unnecessary procedures and drugs, as well as the financial and legal matters not directly concerning patient care. Little attention is paid to preventive care and lifestyle education. If this is because "we live in a capitalistic society", alas. But even that was not my point.

I was specifically talking about psychiatry. In psychiatry, there are powerful financial forces promoting the excessive use of drugs, ECT and other "quick-fixes" a la short-term behavioral therapies. The mysterious depths of the human soul are pushed aside as irrelevant. The protective capabilities of critical psychological states like depression are ignored. The approach to human problems is superficial, and the vision of help is more of an immediate fix than a gradual process of reaching internal peace and psychological growth.

This is what is going on. If you're the kind of person that is okay with this philosophy, you will be very happy in psychiatry. But if not, the trouble awaits you.

So, what do you think about it?
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skpsycho (skpsycho.wordpress.com)

It's not that I'm criticizing or supporting it really. There are some things you've said I agree with and others I don't.

I do agree that resources are poorly spent. I'd actually argue that the more government involvement there is in something, the more likely and the greater the degree resources will be poorly managed. Also, re: things like unnecessary procedures, drugs, and legal matters; I'd say they all stem from the same source. Medicine today (psych to a lesser extent) is dictated by the legal system and until that is fixed we will never have a properly functioning health care system. Far more resources and time are spent towards protecting against a bad outcome compared with working towards the desired outcome.

Re: Preventative care, and lifestyle education -- That's simply not what people want these days. We're in a society that wants their quick fix only to continue on with what they were doing. We're in a society that relies on band aids and not true solutions. You can only do so much about that. You can take a horse to the water but you can't force him to drink.

I mean you could just pay attention to the political campaigns of the year and see that everyone believes all their problems will be solved with some universal health care system. I've heard Barrack mention some aspects of prevention and other ramblings here and there of frivolous law suits, but until some real serious efforts are put towards those directions, things won't really change all that much.

You could literally turn to any field, and you'd see that we are in a society that lives in there here and now. Society is all about the quick fix, the quick profits, the band aids for the moment. There is very little concern as to what the future ramifications of all these decisions are.

I really think that it wouldn't matter what sector you worked in, but you'd still come to the same conclusions. At the end of the day it really comes down to what you enjoy doing and how can you set yourself up to be in a position where you get the most enjoyment and fulfillment out of it.

Not all psychiatry settings are like the one you describe, and after completing your residency you could set yourself up to be in a situation that focuses on what you'd like to achieve. While it maybe difficult, it definitely is possible. Do keep in mind that there is no perfect setting, no perfect system, no perfect place to live, etc.
 
per hour, psychiatrists make a lot. I think that if you work hard (i.e. 50 hours a week), you should easily make $200k+ if you bill correctly. Remember that many primary care docs and surgeons work 60-70 hours per week (or even more). Yikes!

Most of the psychiatrists who make $200,000+ collect cash up front ($125-$150 per half hour slot) from the patients and have the patients then try to collect out of network benefits from their insurance co.
 
Most of the psychiatrists who make $200,000+ collect cash up front ($125-$150 per half hour slot) from the patients and have the patients then try to collect out of network benefits from their insurance co.

How common is this?
 
Doc Drive,

I am a first year resident in psychiatry & many discouraged me from taking this field

Some said, you are capable of getting into any other "good" or "better" field!

I'm only 6 months into the residency programme & it's the best time of my life, I can't imagine myself being anything but a psychiatrist

It's a very good speciality, from all the points of view

All the best
 
I'm only 6 months into the residency programme & it's the best time of my life, I can't imagine myself being anything but a psychiatrist

It's a very good speciality, from all the points of view

So much so that you're prepared to go on the record that PSYCH is the best kept secret in medicine?
 
Most of the psychiatrists who make $200,000+ collect cash up front ($125-$150 per half hour slot) from the patients and have the patients then try to collect out of network benefits from their insurance co.

Actually, you can get to $200 K pretty fast in other situations.
I'm in a salaried inpt/outpt position and making that.
Many of the job offers I see being bulk-mailed right now are starting in the 180s & up as well.
 
Actually, you can get to $200 K pretty fast in other situations.
I'm in a salaried inpt/outpt position and making that.
Many of the job offers I see being bulk-mailed right now are starting in the 180s & up as well.


We have a couple of former residents making $300K and they are just into second year of their careers post residency. 180s and up as starting salary is not at all uncommon these days. And remember, this is before benefits.
 
In psychiatry, there are powerful financial forces promoting the excessive use of drugs, ECT and other "quick-fixes" a la short-term behavioral therapies.

Yes, because these treatments are effective.

The mysterious depths of the human soul are pushed aside as irrelevant. The protective capabilities of critical psychological states like depression are ignored.

What do you mean exactly? Depression isn't ignored. It's usually treated when recognized.

The approach to human problems is superficial, and the vision of help is more of an immediate fix than a gradual process of reaching internal peace and psychological growth.

When you are an attending somewhere, don't act in this manner. You can only worry about things you can control. In this case, if you want to change things, vow to not approach human problems in a superficial, but rather in a more gradual way.
 
So much so that you're prepared to go on the record that PSYCH is the best kept secret in medicine?

People, can we please keep psychiatry the best kept secret in medicine until I match somewhere next year??? Thanks.
 
I'm motivated to be a psychiatrist and will be starting DO school. I am getting negative feedback from my family. They say the stigma is bad and the money is horibble. I honestly don't care what people think because I love the field. However, can someone please confirm that a DO psychiatrist can make some money? My family says anethesiology or radiology. Can't a good psychiatrist make a ton of money anyways? I value your wisdom and appreciate your time.

In terms of earning potential, it varies widely with what market you are in. The California jail systems are extremely profitable for psychiatrists, granted they are not located in the most appealing locations, but starting salaries at some places are 400K for psychiatrists (more than starting salaries for anesthesiology), and some primary care doctors (mainly internists) have been offered 250K by the jail system.

This has become an increasing problem for some of the largest HMO's in California as they are having difficulty retaining physicians.

Also, the market for private practice in NV, AZ, and New Mexico is wide open as well as some very select areas of California.
 
JMC_MarineCorps said:
So much so that you're prepared to go on the record that PSYCH is the best kept secret in medicine?

Where did I mention psychiatry being the best kept secret in medicine?
 
OK, this thread is just to positive. Can we start talking about how psych is going to be taken over by midlevels or how neurology will replace psych or even how crappy the pay is?

I hear that their are to many psych residencies flooding the field with shrinks so it is going to be impossible for any of us to get a job in 5 years. To have a chance in hell we are going to have to all do at least 2 fellowships. Certified Registered Nurse Psych programs are popping up everywhere. :laugh: And we make less money than the Pediatricians. :smuggrin:

So run along all you wannabes. You don't want none of Psych.;)
 
OK, this thread is just to positive. Can we start talking about how psych is going to be taken over by midlevels or how neurology will replace psych or even how crappy the pay is?

I hear that their are to many psych residencies flooding the field with shrinks so it is going to be impossible for any of us to get a job in 5 years. To have a chance in hell we are going to have to all do at least 2 fellowships. Certified Registered Nurse Psych programs are popping up everywhere. :laugh: And we make less money than the Pediatricians. :smuggrin:

So run along all you wannabes. You don't want none of Psych.;)

You forgot to mention sykologist perskribng prvlges:eek:
 
OK, this thread is just to positive. Can we start talking about how psych is going to be taken over by midlevels or how neurology will replace psych or even how crappy the pay is?

I hear that their are to many psych residencies flooding the field with shrinks so it is going to be impossible for any of us to get a job in 5 years. To have a chance in hell we are going to have to all do at least 2 fellowships. Certified Registered Nurse Psych programs are popping up everywhere. :laugh: And we make less money than the Pediatricians. :smuggrin:

So run along all you wannabes. You don't want none of Psych.;)

:thumbup: Tone down the irony a little bit and they might actually believe you.... then I would give you two thumbs up.
 
I'm going to quit teasing before I dig myself into a hole.
 
We all know the only reason you gave me one :thumbup: is because you are feeling so miserable that you may end up in Psych.

(good luck tomorrow BTW)

Mmmm.. can't tell if you are joking or being serious. In retrospect, well done! :thumbup::thumbup:
 
Yes, because these treatments are effective.

This point is very difficult to argue about. What is efficiency? From whose point of view? What are the objective and subjective definitions of normality and sickness in psychiatry? You have to be very subtle when discussing these.

What do you mean exactly? Depression isn't ignored. It's usually treated when recognized.
The protective capabilities of depression, and not the depression itself, are ignored. I am sorry if my writing was a bit clumsy.

You can only worry about things you can control.
I really have a problem with this statement. I say, don't touch it until you understand the whole thing. Our position in regard to the human mind is worse than that of a monkey in a 747's cockpit. We don't understand it, but we make it a point to pull on every lever within our reach.

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)
 
I am currently a working psychiatrist in govt hospital, salaried position, get around 180K.8 to 4:30 and 4 to 5 weekend calls per year which are compensated with day offs. in private practice making 250K is quite easy. personally i have professional satisfaction when it comes to working with pt's etc. only difference from other spelities is you have to work as team with many non physicians i.e SW, psychologists, etc.overall they are ok,but at times might you feel intrusions into your professional space by no physicians. hospitals now tend to hire psychologists/SW to head department of mental health, which is quite disappointing, as they know little about medical aspects of psychiatry. but still psychiatrist is considered team leader and med schoold + residency proves it's worth when it comes to challenging situations which requires true leadership. overall excellent field, i will choose it again, if i have to, no doubt.
Good luck:thumbup:
 
The protective capabilities of depression, and not the depression itself, are ignored. I am sorry if my writing was a bit clumsy.

I'm not understanding. Can you give specific examples of how you think depression is protective? How is suicidal ideation "protective" in any way? I'm totally confused by this statement.

really have a problem with this statement. I say, don't touch it until you understand the whole thing. Our position in regard to the human mind is worse than that of a monkey in a 747's cockpit. We don't understand it, but we make it a point to pull on every lever within our reach.

How do you take "a monkey in a 747 cockpit" from my statement that you can only worry about things you can control??? I don't see the correlation. I'll give you a different example. Let's say it might rain tomorrow. You could stay up all night worrying about water falling from the sky or you could decide that you will bring an umbrella with you just in case it rains. You can control whether or not you take the umbrella with you, but you cannot control the weather. Hence, you should focus your efforts on buying an umbrella and remembering to take it with you. Does that make more sense?
 
This point is very difficult to argue about. What is efficiency? From whose point of view? What are the objective and subjective definitions of normality and sickness in psychiatry? You have to be very subtle when discussing these.

The protective capabilities of depression, and not the depression itself, are ignored. I am sorry if my writing was a bit clumsy.

I really have a problem with this statement. I say, don't touch it until you understand the whole thing. Our position in regard to the human mind is worse than that of a monkey in a 747's cockpit. We don't understand it, but we make it a point to pull on every lever within our reach.

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)

Well, friend, you say you've matched into a residency in psychiatry.
All I have to say is write us back in a year or two. Because, really, when you're dealing with psychotic patients smearing feces on the wall in the ER, there won't be a whole lot of time for you to consider the "objective and subjective definitions of normality and sickness". And go ahead and feel good about using LOTS of haloperidol, lorazepam, and diphenhydramine--(or to extend your metaphor, just get the d--m plane on the ground, whether you're a monkey or a fighter pilot!) because that particular temporizing measure isn't lining the pockets of any of those evil ol' drug companies!
 
This point is very difficult to argue about. What is efficiency? From whose point of view? What are the objective and subjective definitions of normality and sickness in psychiatry? You have to be very subtle when discussing these.

The protective capabilities of depression, and not the depression itself, are ignored. I am sorry if my writing was a bit clumsy.

I really have a problem with this statement. I say, don't touch it until you understand the whole thing. Our position in regard to the human mind is worse than that of a monkey in a 747's cockpit. We don't understand it, but we make it a point to pull on every lever within our reach.

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)

I think your logic has difficult consequences. A great many of the scientific and medical discoveries happened without first understanding the mechanism, only afterwards were we able to then abstract from it and use the developed understanding to further science. An easy example is the cowpox/smallpox vaccine.

As for psychiatry and meds, efficacy vs. placebo, side effects vs. none, I think there's many points to be made.
1. Medicine is largely a field of maintenance and doing the best with the tools we have. How many specialties actually FIX a problem. I could argue almost none, without causing their own problems. Surgery seems like a quick fix except for those lifelong adhesions and abdominal pain. Antibiotics might seem like a fix but really we're just restoring a balance temporarily, often for individuals with recurrent infections. Psych is no different. It's a field of weighing risks and benefits, and when someone comes in suicidal and says help me in some way or I'm going to end my life, and you have tools that might help --- then saying let's wait to give something to keep this person from dying until we understand every intricacy of the brain is frankly LUDICROUS and unethical, especially when there IS data that medications can help.
2. Depression is at least the 4th highest cause of disability worldwide - https://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/338/20/1475
Not attempting to use any and all means of helping individuals that are suffering is sad. And I'm not just talking about medications. I know of few psychiatrists who believe that giving medications will fix every problem in those with mental illness. There are many levels, including environmental, philosophical, and otherwise, all of which ideally we should aim to improve in some way.
3. Depression may have benefit for some people, but not all and not always. I'm very in favor of Frankl's logotherapy and recommend it often to patients, but that doesn't mean that they will have the energy, motivation, or insight to be able to utilize it properly at the time. It's a tool and a direction to maximize the state, but is not the only valid perspective on depression. It's like those arguments from the scientology community that all depressed people really need to do is just exercise. I love exercise, and I think it helps my mood for sure. But how many people in a full blown major depressive episode do you think you can motivate to exercise daily? Maybe with a multi-system approach of meds, environmental changes, psychotherapy, then they'll be functional to add in exercise, but unlikely to happen alone.
4. Antidepressants may be overprescribed or misprescribed, but I think it's inappropriate to blame psychiatrists for that. I believe it's a tool again, but that most psychiatrists use it appropriately. I think a large problem is that PCP's are often burdened trying to manage depression, much of which may not require antidepressants, and much of which is band-aiding of difficult social situations put on PCP's attempting to do whatever they can to help a patient.
5. 40% of ALL medications effects (psychiatric and otherwise) is placebo. Does that mean don't give the meds because they're only a little better than placebo? No. I'd give someone a jolt-cola enema if I believed it was a tool that would help improve their mental illness. As physicians we should be using all the tools at our disposal, including medications.

It's easy to critique psychiatry from the sidelines. And there's plenty to critique, throughout all of medicine. But work in it for a little while before you badmouth it. Either that or pick up a torch and work hard to make changes in the world, rather than just dismissing practices outright.
 
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Well, friend, you say you've matched into a residency in psychiatry.
All I have to say is write us back in a year or two. Because, really, when you're dealing with psychotic patients smearing feces on the wall in the ER, there won't be a whole lot of time for you to consider the "objective and subjective definitions of normality and sickness". And go ahead and feel good about using LOTS of haloperidol, lorazepam, and diphenhydramine--(or to extend your metaphor, just get the d--m plane on the ground, whether you're a monkey or a fighter pilot!) because that particular temporizing measure isn't lining the pockets of any of those evil ol' drug companies!

Dear colleague, there is really no need for such a patronizing tone. True, I have matched into a psychiatric residency, but it doesn't mean that I am new to psychiatry. I am a licensed psychiatrist (outside the US of A) since 2000, and for the last two years I have worked in a major US psychiatric hospital as a counselor. So I do know the realities of a psychiatrist's practice. That is precisely why I am so concerned about the whole thing.

Yes, most of the time a psychiatrist does not have the luxury of discussing philosophical matters with his patients. But it doesn't follow that he should abstain from such discussions with his colleagues ;)

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)
 
I think your logic has difficult consequences. <...>
It's easy to critique psychiatry from the sidelines. And there's plenty to critique, throughout all of medicine. But work in it for a little while before you badmouth it. Either that or pick up a torch and work hard to make changes in the world, rather than just dismissing practices outright.

Thank you for such a thoughtful response. As I've already noted in my response to OldPsychDoc, I am not at all a sideliner to psychiatry. And if badmouthing was an issue, it would hardly be worth wasting the time of the reputable people on this forum. I don't aim to change the world, however. The point of my joining this forum is to see, by way of discussing it with other people, whether I am fit for this profession in this country today.

It is quite clear to me, as a result of my life and professional experience, that many of today's psychiatry practices are wrong. (Especially if you look at things in perspective, and not from a point of view of an overworked resident being thrown feces at by the patients.) Everyday behavior is pathologized, mental issues are superficially understood, people are recklessly put on cocktails of medications with horrible side effects, the research is for-profit and therefore laughable, and psychiatrists, instead of reading Camus and Socrates, spend their free time dining with drug reps.

Exactly why it is so is of no concern to me at this time. There are always explanations. Perhaps it is because of poor infrastructure; or because the doctors are overworked; or maybe something else is the reason. But it is going on, and what I need to understand is whether there is a way around it. In other words, whether I will be able to practise within the system, but in a different fashion.

At the very least I need to ensure that I can reach at least some kind of understanding with my colleagues. So far the experiences on this forum are not very promising... :)

You make some great points that I would like to comment on.

1. Medicine is largely a field of maintenance and doing the best with the tools we have. How many specialties actually FIX a problem. I could argue almost none, without causing their own problems. Surgery seems like a quick fix except for those lifelong adhesions and abdominal pain. Antibiotics might seem like a fix but really we're just restoring a balance temporarily, often for individuals with recurrent infections. Psych is no different. It's a field of weighing risks and benefits, and when someone comes in suicidal and says help me in some way or I'm going to end my life, and you have tools that might help --- then saying let's wait to give something to keep this person from dying until we understand every intricacy of the brain is frankly LUDICROUS and unethical, especially when there IS data that medications can help.
Still, psychiatry is different. Someone with acute peritonitis requires an immediate surgery, it is the only way to save his life. Yet, someone with acute suicidal intentions does not require haloperidol or an SSRI in the same way. You can help him by providing a safe and pleasant place to be (not to be confused with a psychiatric ward), a qualified sitter, and time to recover. You can then help him deal with the problem that caused his suicidal ideas (there's always one). The reason why you do not do all this, and give the pill or electroshock instead, is because you don't have the resources, or the time, or the skills. This is, of course, the reality, and I don't deny it.

2. Depression is at least the 4th highest cause of disability worldwide - https://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/338/20/1475
Not attempting to use any and all means of helping individuals that are suffering is sad. And I'm not just talking about medications. I know of few psychiatrists who believe that giving medications will fix every problem in those with mental illness. There are many levels, including environmental, philosophical, and otherwise, all of which ideally we should aim to improve in some way.
Agree. What analyses like this one fail to realize, though, is that it is the treated depression that is the cause of the disability - because every recognized case of depression is treated nowadays, and the unrecognized cases aren't counted by statistics. It is the same type of misconception as when some people still believe that schizophrenia is the cause of the weird orofacial movements.

3. Depression may have benefit for some people, but not all and not always. I'm very in favor of Frankl's logotherapy and recommend it often to patients, but that doesn't mean that they will have the energy, motivation, or insight to be able to utilize it properly at the time. It's a tool and a direction to maximize the state, but is not the only valid perspective on depression. It's like those arguments from the scientology community that all depressed people really need to do is just exercise. I love exercise, and I think it helps my mood for sure. But how many people in a full blown major depressive episode do you think you can motivate to exercise daily? Maybe with a multi-system approach of meds, environmental changes, psychotherapy, then they'll be functional to add in exercise, but unlikely to happen alone.
You are quite right. To recommend exercise to a depressed person is no less simplistic than just prescribe a pill. Again, we must understand it in broader sense. The very image of depression in the society must become less superficial and mechanistic. Until then, you're pretty much left with the pill, because, let's face it, people don't care about environmental changes. What they need is a quick-fix to go back to work.

4. Antidepressants may be overprescribed or misprescribed, but I think it's inappropriate to blame psychiatrists for that. I believe it's a tool again, but that most psychiatrists use it appropriately. I think a large problem is that PCP's are often burdened trying to manage depression, much of which may not require antidepressants, and much of which is band-aiding of difficult social situations put on PCP's attempting to do whatever they can to help a patient.
Well, I've worked in an adolescent psych ward of an ivy-league hospital for 2 years. The velocity and thoughtlessness with which psychiatrists prescribe loads of antidepressants and atypicals for 12-13 year olds is no less than amazing. Maybe it's just my hospital (among the 10 best in the nation).
5. 40% of ALL medications effects (psychiatric and otherwise) is placebo. Does that mean don't give the meds because they're only a little better than placebo? No. I'd give someone a jolt-cola enema if I believed it was a tool that would help improve their mental illness. As physicians we should be using all the tools at our disposal, including medications.
Again, I cannot but completely agree. But, you see, in practice, for whatever reason, this phrase seems to be transformed into "all the tools at our disposal, and above all medications". And your logic about placebo is right, but psychiatric meds are no placebos. They have powerful effects apart from those that we seek, and they tend to make our patient's lives miserable sooner or later.

Please understand that I am not criticizing anybody. We all work within the constraints of the system, and we all at some point have to put our noble aspirations on the back-burner. It is more of a matter of a personal preference. For example, soldiers sometimes kill people. It is always a noble doing, and it is always for a reason. Still, I wouldn't like to be a soldier, because I think killing people - in general - is bad. So the question is, would I like to be a psychiatrist, given the current state of affairs?

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss these things.
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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)
 
...It is quite clear to me, as a result of my life and professional experience, that many of today's psychiatry practices are wrong. (Especially if you look at things in perspective, and not from a point of view of an overworked resident being thrown feces at by the patients.) Everyday behavior is pathologized, mental issues are superficially understood, people are recklessly put on cocktails of medications with horrible side effects, the research is for-profit and therefore laughable, and psychiatrists, instead of reading Camus and Socrates, spend their free time dining with drug reps. ...

The reason why you do not do all this, and give the pill or electroshock instead, is because you don't have the resources, or the time, or the skills. This is, of course, the reality, and I don't deny it.

...Please understand that I am not criticizing anybody. ... So the question is, would I like to be a psychiatrist, given the current state of affairs?

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss these things.
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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)

How are we to understand your widely drawn and inflammatory generalizations as anything but criticism? Perhaps it is a cross-cultural misunderstanding on your part, but these do not come across as a call to open dialogue! Instead you make statements which are both false and unjust, and I would frankly dispute that they truly reflect the practice of psychiatry where you claim to work. If they truly reflect the practice where you intend to do residency, you will be very unhappy there also.

However, if you can adjust your preconceived notions about the practice of psychiatry in this country today, I believe you will find places (such as in my practice, I hope), where everyday behavior is normalized, mental issues begin to be explored, people are put on the appropriate medications for their symptoms with careful concern about side effects, the research is based on carefully gathered evidence (CATIE? STAR*D? STEP-BP? Have you heard of these? Can you honestly call this "for profit and laughable"?????) , and psychiatrists are well-rounded compassionate individuals. Your definition of "reality" is quite at odds to the real world in which we practice.
 
How are we to understand your widely drawn and inflammatory generalizations as anything but criticism? Perhaps it is a cross-cultural misunderstanding on your part, but these do not come across as a call to open dialogue! Instead you make statements which are both false and unjust, and I would frankly dispute that they truly reflect the practice of psychiatry where you claim to work. If they truly reflect the practice where you intend to do residency, you will be very unhappy there also.

However, if you can adjust your preconceived notions about the practice of psychiatry in this country today, I believe you will find places (such as in my practice, I hope), where everyday behavior is normalized, mental issues begin to be explored, people are put on the appropriate medications for their symptoms with careful concern about side effects, the research is based on carefully gathered evidence (CATIE? STAR*D? STEP-BP? Have you heard of these? Can you honestly call this "for profit and laughable"?????) , and psychiatrists are well-rounded compassionate individuals. Your definition of "reality" is quite at odds to the real world in which we practice.


Sir, I am really not here to take your indignities. Please switch to the constructive and respectful mode of discussion, or else I truly do not see a point in going on.

I never said I wasn't criticizing anything, I said anybody. I am quite clearly criticizing the current psychiatry practices, of which I was a witness. But I try to do it in a non-personal manner, so as not to insult the discussion participants. You, on the other hand, have said very little in regards to my arguments, but a lot about my personality.

You must understand that your experience doesn't nullify my experience. It is a blessing to believe that the practice like yours does exist, but the practices that I describe still exist as well. Which is the rule and which is an exception? My experience is subjective, but I hope you realize that yours is too.
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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)
 
With all due respect, it's incredible to me that you claim to be a psychiatrist who is sensitive to normalized behavior, and yet you appear to have no insight into your method of discussion which reads more like a condemning diatribe and very little like a professional discussion.

There are myriad comments I could make outlining the errors in your viewpoints about clinical psychiatry. Suffice it to say that the system is nowhere near perfect. You'll find no less reprieve in family practice or internal medicine, where antibiotics and pain medications "with profound side effects" are prescribed with no indication or backing in science. Does that mean that they're absolutely not indicated? Obviously no. Controlled trials rarely generalize to "real world practice," due to inclusion/exclusion criteria and other issues. However, in general we do what it takes to get the patient better.

The condition in which you describe i.e. a "safe and pleasant place" for psyciatric patients to recover has been done - and failed miserably. Frankly, this harkens to 1700's psychiatry "asylums" where 'neurotic' i.e. psychotic, women were treated with salt baths, gardening, and "wholesome foods."
 
The condition in which you describe i.e. a "safe and pleasant place" for psyciatric patients to recover has been done - and failed miserably.

No they have not. Not all of them, anyway. The Quackers' asylums are one historical example. More recently, Satoria houses were very successful for the treatment of schizophrenia in the eighties in California, until the financing was cut off. Similar establishments are still successfully functioning in other countries.

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)
 
No they have not. Not all of them, anyway. The Quackers' asylums are one historical example. More recently, Satoria houses were very successful for the treatment of schizophrenia in the eighties in California, until the financing was cut off. Similar establishments are still successfully functioning in other countries.

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)

I think you mean soteria, as opposed to satoria, which is similar to Satori, a japanses buddhist word for that "a-ha" experience (often used in Gestalt psychology)

Soteria is an interesting and I think useful concept, but a far cry from evidence that psychosis is treatable from non-pharmacologic means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteria

As for their efficacy, the abstract below tends to indicate that they're helpful, and a good adjunct, but in no way a replacement for medication for psychosis. furthermore the research supporting the kindling belief of psychosis would tend to support medication for psychosis-- which is of course a theory, but with a decent body of evidence to support it.

Lindgren, Ingrid. Falk Hogstedt, Margareta. Cullberg, Johan.
Institution Neuropsychiatrical Assessment Team, University department of clinical psychiatry southwest, Stockholm County Council, Liljeholmstorget 7, SE-117 61 Stockholm, Sweden. [email protected]
Title Outpatient vs. comprehensive first-episode psychosis services, a 5-year follow-up of Soteria Nacka.
Source Nordic Journal of Psychiatry. 60(5):405-9, 2006.
Abstract Three years experience of an outpatient unit for first-episode psychosis showed that most of the patients at some point became hospitalized in a psychiatric ward with discontinuity in care as a consequence. Adding "need-adapted" inpatient care in the form of a small and calm crisis home guaranteed continuity in approach and treatment, as the same caregivers staffed the inpatient and outpatient parts of Soteria. Information on early signs of psychosis was given to other units of the psychiatric clinic and to general practitioners. As the organization was considerably changed from that point of time, the patients could be divided into two separate groups. The aim of the present study was to follow the patients in the two groups for 5 years, comparing the outcome. The results showed that easily accessible need-adapted treatment with integrated overnight care might be advantageous for first-episode psychotic patients. The duration of untreated psychosis was shorter and the outcome better.
------------------------

As for your experience on the adolescent ward, I think we can all acknowledge that the system is flawed and that Child/Adolescent psychiatry has more trouble than many.
1. It's way way underserved. CAPS is actually the most underserved medical specialty in the U.S. That means that often the amount of care child/adolescent psychiatrists can offer is almost more like triaging than optimal care.
2. So much of the influence on mental illness in youth is environmental, including but not at all limited to families or poor socioeconomic status (or high SES for that matter). But once they've reached the point of hospitalization, their pathology/problems have often become so deep seated it's hard to manage, as well as then just having to send them back to these terrible home/living environments. This is really a critique of Western Society, rather than psychiatry. It's like blaming prisons for having too many criminals. That's probably a really crappy analogy on many many fronts, and I don't want to get into the psych hospital-prison discussion or history either. My point is that mental illness is multifactorial, and many of those factors are too often out of our control. So meds are given in the hope that if the kid can survive psychiatrically intact for a while, they can move their way up, not down the functional path of life, and change those other factors that are contributing to their illness. If we had the power to change the entire social system-- which is a larger philosophical discussion, such as should bad parents have children, and should society allow them to knowing what will happen-- and what of the alternatives? Sterilization, which Oliver Wendell Holmes advocated for people with mental ******ation because "three generations of idiots is enough." I by no means advocate that or anything like that. But I think it's somewhat short-sighted to blame psychiatry for over-medicating individuals, even kids who are legitimately suffering and spiralling out of control when sometimes it's the only intervention we have the power to make.

I had a patient recently with mental ******ation that the power screamed at me over and over and over to keep in the hospital and change his meds to control his behavior. He probably shouldn't have been admitted in the first place, but he was acting out at home, breaking things, near violent, and had been treated on the outside with a strong cocktail to attempt to keep him calm. His perspective was that he wanted to move out to an independent living, that he hated being cooped up in the house, and that it drove him "crazy." Unfortunately no ILF would take him while he was violent at home. So I think in that situation a little extra medication is appropriate, as well as counseling him over and over and over again to try to stay calm at home and teach him ways to do that. Because sometimes medication changes behavior and allows them to get into better social situations that'll help them further in the long run.

Do these meds have side effects? Absolutely. But again in a risk/benefit analysis, I would rather gamble with giving someone a little anxiety than let someone's mental illness (depression, auditory hallucinations, disorganized thinking) get out of control and they end up dead/in jail. Once someone's in a psychiatric hospital, I think more often than not they're so impaired that the benefits of medications far outweigh the side effects.

I see tons of patients with long-term, chronic depression, without clear exacerbating factors, and no single insight or change will improve that. They end up hospitalized, and we do what we can to improve their suffering.

And for some of these people they just need a little hope. They need the expectation that they can get better, and a new medication might offer them that. Sometimes that's the only thing they'll take hope in. And who am I to deny someone hope?
 
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I think you mean soteria, as opposed to satoria, which is similar to Satori, a japanses buddhist word for that "a-ha" experience (often used in Gestalt psychology)

A rather nice Freudian-style wishful thinking on my part :) Thanks for the correction.

So Soteria houses and other similar treatments are probably effective in at least some patients. Just as medications are. But should this treatment be adjunct to medications, or may the medications be adjunct to Soteria-type treatment? Depends on how you look at it. From the socioeconomical standpoint, medications are more cost and time-effective, but from the point of view of a human being going through a psychotic episode Soteria is probably better. Because, after all, you put it very well elsewhere that in many cases our psychiatric interventions are only a means of keeping people on the verge of a more serious trouble, until they are capable of sorting things out by themselves. So both meds and Soteria could serve this purpose; the choice is based on socioeconomic factors.

But again, meds have side effects. And even though they work faster, their long-term prognosis is rather gloomy in many cases.

As for your experience on the adolescent ward, I think we can all acknowledge that the system is flawed and that Child/Adolescent psychiatry has more trouble than many. <...>
This is really a critique of Western Society, rather than psychiatry. <...>
You make an interesting point. In a way, I am criticizing Western society. Not so much criticizing it even, but just describing it the way I see it. It seems to be a rather difficult place to live... But, incidentally, eugenics and the like are not at all necessary to correct this. It is as if a teacher kept complaining that they send her only the bad pupils, and demanded constantly to take all the 'F' students away and send her new, good students, so that her class has good grades. It is nothing but a displacement of the problem; in fact, it is the teacher's job to make good students out of whatever she gets in the beginning. In the same way, it is the society's job to grow good people, so to speak. And America is, and has been, failing to do it, choosing instead to displace the blame onto the 'unfit'.

But I think it's somewhat short-sighted to blame psychiatry for over-medicating individuals, even kids who are legitimately suffering and spiralling out of control when sometimes it's the only intervention we have the power to make.
Sometimes it is, but other times it isn't. What worries me is that even though the alternatives theoretically exist, they are not so readily used. For example, I've recently witnessed an adult patient first admitted to our psychiatric ward with hallucinations. She had no psychiatric history and was known to be very bright and well-adapted. They tried every single antipsychotic on her, and with each one she grew worse, and worse, and worse. Then they decided to do ECT. After 12 treatments and the total of 2 months in the hospital she lost the ability to speak, wandered around the unit publicly masturbating, and was incontinent. In an informal conversation with the nurses I asked whether it would have been possible to just leave her alone when she came, observe her for a while and not prescribe any medications except for maybe mild sedatives. I said, if I'm a doctor and I want to make such decision, can I? They said no, because the hospital administration would not tolerate this. The hospital's profit depends on insurance payments that mostly cover medications, and so you have to prescribe something on day one. Mind you, this is the hospital in the nation's top ten.

I see tons of patients with long-term, chronic depression, without clear exacerbating factors, and no single insight or change will improve that. They end up hospitalized, and we do what we can to improve their suffering.
I remember someone say "Don't you know what an endogenous depression is? It is a depression in someone who you haven't spoken to long enough to find out why they are depressed." But it's not the point. The point is that we shouldn't take things in isolation, but must pay attention to the whole process. It is always easy to say "Well, now that I have to deal with this and that, I really have no other choice but to do this". True, but if you stop and think for a second, you might find that the current situation is the result of your earlier actions. At some point you did have a choice.

Another patient example. An extremely bright young man of my age was hospitalized to our ward. At some point in his youth he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and given antipsychotics. He developed a debilitating TD, and is now suffering from depression due to social isolation. Well, clearly there's nothing left to do but give him antidepressants, right? Right, but at this point we tend to forget that his depression is completely our fault, and continue prescribing antipsychotics to bright young people who act 'strangely'. Without even so much as waiting for 6 months before a diagnosis of schizophrenia can be officially made.

And for some of these people they just need a little hope. They need the expectation that they can get better, and a new medication might offer them that. Sometimes that's the only thing they'll take hope in. And who am I to deny someone hope?
Hope is a tricky business. You say, who am I to deny someone hope. But who am I to offer it? Max Frei said that "hope is a stupid feeling", because it implies passivity, instead of taking your life in your own hands. How do I know if and when, by offering the patients hope in the face of medications, I may be depriving them of their liberty to trust in themselves?

And why is it that many a patient whom I speak to tend to have the impression, from the conversations with their doctors, that the medicines are their only hope? I really don't mind giving meds to people who want them, despite knowing all the alternatives. What I have a problem with is expecting the patients to make an informed choice while de facto presenting them with only one option. :)

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)
 
But again, meds have side effects. And even though they work faster, their long-term prognosis is rather gloomy in many cases.
Data on this long-term prognosis? And are you acknowledging the efficacy of meds then?

Unfortunately you cannot force someone to change. You can only offer them the means to do it. If someone is absolutely determined to kill themselves, attempted and failed but still determined, then I can hospitalize them against their will for 17 days, even get a court-order forcing them to take meds while in the hospital, get counseling for their family, have family meetings, social work interventions, and all the psychotherapy offered to them, but if they don't choose to take advantage of those services and choose to kill themselves once they leave the hospital, then I cannot change that. And that happens.

I guess my question is this-- can you show me the data that the long-term prognosis is better for someone receiving other psychiatric interventions without medications, compared to those that receive the medications?

Sometimes it is, but other times it isn't. What worries me is that even though the alternatives theoretically exist, they are not so readily used. For example, I've recently witnessed an adult patient first admitted to our psychiatric ward with hallucinations. She had no psychiatric history and was known to be very bright and well-adapted. They tried every single antipsychotic on her, and with each one she grew worse, and worse, and worse. Then they decided to do ECT. After 12 treatments and the total of 2 months in the hospital she lost the ability to speak, wandered around the unit publicly masturbating, and was incontinent. In an informal conversation with the nurses I asked whether it would have been possible to just leave her alone when she came, observe her for a while and not prescribe any medications except for maybe mild sedatives. I said, if I'm a doctor and I want to make such decision, can I? They said no, because the hospital administration would not tolerate this. The hospital's profit depends on insurance payments that mostly cover medications, and so you have to prescribe something on day one. Mind you, this is the hospital in the nation's top ten.

Well since I didn't care for the girl and don't know her whole history I can't fully speak to this, but somehow I doubt it was the medications fault that she kept decompensating. Sounds like the expected course of untreated schizophrenia, actually. Hallucinations-->delusions-->disorganized thinking. Most antipsychotic effects are considered temporizing, rather than permanently effecting brain chemistry - at least from our current scientific understanding of the brain, which I acknowledge is always changing. The exception is preventing furthering of psychosis, in the kindling model. In that theory stopping any psychosis, likely even in the prodromal phase, could keep someone functional for the rest of their life and ever developing a full-blown schizophrenia. So no, we don't just let someone sit with hallucinations untreated. That being said, needing anti-psychotics temporarily doesn't mean they'll need it forever. Some easy examples are substance induced psychosis (meth, cocaine, PCP), where treating them briefly brings them down until the substance has cleared. There is some evidence that the psychiatric effects of meth can last for up to 3 years, though. Another example is depression with psychotic features, or mania. Or alcoholic hallucinosis. All legitimate illnesses where antipsychotics help and don't require lifelong therapy.

I remember someone say "Don't you know what an endogenous depression is? It is a depression in someone who you haven't spoken to long enough to find out why they are depressed." But it's not the point. The point is that we shouldn't take things in isolation, but must pay attention to the whole process. It is always easy to say "Well, now that I have to deal with this and that, I really have no other choice but to do this". True, but if you stop and think for a second, you might find that the current situation is the result of your earlier actions. At some point you did have a choice.

I don't take things in isolation. Sure the DSM, which is flawed in many ways, doesn't speak to etiology at all, but that doesn't mean in care you write an H&P saying
"HPI: Depression.
Past Psych history: Depression.
A/P Depression.
1. antidepressant"

Usually we're a little more detailed than that. If you continue to take an extremist oppositional approach to the use of medication, then you'll be dismissed the same way I dismiss biologic reductionists-- short-sighted and inflexible.

Oh, and TD is pretty rare to come on acutely. I'd look for something like a rabbit syndrome and not worry about the permanence of it. And again, risk/benefit. Risk of TD balanced against the risk of untreated psychosis.

Hope is a tricky business. You say, who am I to deny someone hope. But who am I to offer it? Max Frei said that "hope is a stupid feeling", because it implies passivity, instead of taking your life in your own hands. How do I know if and when, by offering the patients hope in the face of medications, I may be depriving them of their liberty to trust in themselves?

And why is it that many a patient whom I speak to tend to have the impression, from the conversations with their doctors, that the medicines are their only hope? I really don't mind giving meds to people who want them, despite knowing all the alternatives. What I have a problem with is expecting the patients to make an informed choice while de facto presenting them with only one option. :)

And Eschylus said "Exiles feed on hope." It's what keeps them going and trying new things despite overwhelming adversity. Hope does not imply passivity, but rather a motivation for actions in general. If I told you to be hopeful that driving down the street would make you meet your soulmate, that doesn't mean you're going to sit and not drive down the street.

Now you make a good point that many pt.'s think meds are their only solution, and that starts to touch on a whole other aspect of western culture and psychiatry, and that none of us pretend meds will really help -- personality. Personality, from types to dysfunction, and our systemic inability to properly treat it or choose not to treat it, is a discussion for another day.
 
psychiatrists, instead of reading Camus and Socrates, spend their free time dining with drug reps.

Reading Socrates? I understand what you mean about the psychiatrist's attention to great thinkers... but while you can read Aristophanes and other satirists, Xenophon and Plato, and Aristotle, and even Kierkegaard and Peter Kreeft in order to understand Socrates ... you can't read Socrates :).
 
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