Thanks for the info!
Psychiatry FAQs
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Thanks for the info!
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1. Q. What does it take to become a psychiatrist? What should I major in during undergrad?
A. The road to psychiatry is a relatively long one. It starts in undergraduate school (college) where you must complete all traditional requirements for entrance to medical school. In addition to the requirements for your degree, you must complete (with some minor variations) 2 semesters each of physics, biology, chemistry, and organic chemistry, all with lab. In addition, many medical schools require calculus or at least college-level algebra. It is helpful in medical school to have taken physiology, anatomy, biochemistry and statistics, but these courses are rarely required by medical schools themselves. Check individual medical schools for their entrance requirements.
For a list of all US and Canadian medical schools who grant the MD degree, follow the link to the American Association of Medical Colleges.
For a list of all US medical schools granting the DO degree (doctor of osteopathic medicine) follow the link to American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine.
These links provide details on the locations of medical schools, and offer guidelines on how to obtain admission.
Both MDs and DOs can become psychiatrists.
You must take the MCAT (Medical College Admissions Test) in order to be accepted to medical school. Some overseas medical schools do not require this. Your score on the MCAT, combined with your grades in undergraduate, research and/or volunteer experience determine your competitveness for entrance to medical school. It doesn't matter what your major is in undergraduate, as long as you fulfill the above requirements. Many entering medical students have majored in history, English, philosophy, in addition to biology, chemistry, and psychology. The key is to major in whatever you enjoy. That will ensure interest in your studies, and help build a good GPA.
Your acceptance to med school, however, is only the beginning. You now must endure 4 years of medical school, which generally consists of 2 years of basic science courses, followed by two years of clinical rotations, endless tests and clinical exams. Toward the end of your fourth year of medical school, you apply for your desired residency...either psychiatry, internal medicine, surgery, dermatology, neurology, emergency medicine, etc., etc. It is possible to apply to more than one residency, but this makes things more difficult.
After graduating medical school, you are finally a doctor, you start your residency and finally start making some money (although much less than you will comprared to when you finish residency and become an attending physician). A psychiatry residency is four years. This varies slightly, but generally consists of 4 months of internal medicine, 2 months of neurology, and the remaining months and years of psychiatry.
If you happen to attend a psychiatry residency with a child psychiatry fellowship, your time in residency increases from 4 to 5 years. Though, this is shorter overall than the required two years of child psychiatry fellowship if done at a hospital or institution outside that of your psychiatry residency location.
Psychiatry residencies vary greatly, and reviews of the various programs can be found on this site. In addition, you can see basic profiles of the various psychiatry residency programs on the AMA FREIDA website.
This link to the American Psychiatric Association's Career Corner has a section for prospective medical students with useful links.
Good luck!
I may be misreading but it seems this post is suggesting one has to first have majored in Psychology is school in order to be Psychiatrist after becoming an MD?
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Absolutely not. Most medical students in my experience didn't even know they were headed toward psych until sometime in the third year.
People who major--or even have taken a significant amount of coursework--in psychology as undergraduates are the exception, not the rule.
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A psychology major at most undergraduate institutions is a poor choice for pre-meds, because the programs simply lack sufficient intellectual rigor. That's not to say there are not rigorous psychology undergraduate programs in the country, but they are few and far between.
It's really a shame, since psychology is such a robust and sophisticated field. Why undergraduates who spend four years of their lives supposedly studying the field are exposed to so little of its nuances is beyond me.
It's really a shame, since psychology is such a robust and sophisticated field. Why undergraduates who spend four years of their lives supposedly studying the field are exposed to so little of its nuances is beyond me.
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You can always do a double major and pick up some psych knowledge along the way, I found it helpful. If I can muddle through, it should be a piece of cake for the smart guys.
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I just took a lot of psych classes. Quite honestly mainstream bio degrees don't teach critical thinking skills. Those are hard to come by in undergrad, period. And even harder to come by in medical school. A doctor's idea of what passes for rigorous thought is laughable. Graduate seminars in more theory-based fields are really the only place to get that.
I will someday write the more sarcastic and highly critical companion to Groopman's 'how doctor's think'. I will call it 'why doctors are stupid'.
I will someday write the more sarcastic and highly critical companion to Groopman's 'how doctor's think'. I will call it 'why doctors are stupid'.
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Lol. Well said.
how do psych residency hours compare to those of other fields? do psych residents put in the 80+ hour weeks that other specialties are putting in? Also, can't imagine there'd be a great deal of night work in psych?
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It is program-dependent. I can tell you that in NYC, you'll likely be up all night seeing patients in the ER, and dealing with issues on the floor. Most programs will not have you working 80 hours. But while on medicine, on call, and in more difficult psych residencies, you can and will work 80+ hours. These programs still exist and are often in large city academic centers.
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80+ will get you shut down.
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More than 80 averaged over 4 weeks will get you shut down. 80+ during a week of call or nightfloat will not, if the adjacent 3 weeks counterbalance.
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On the topic of hours, I don't really trust anybody.
When I was a student in surgery, I know the residents worked way, way more than the 80 hours a week. One day during a didactic the program director castigated the residents for all reporting their week as being 79 hours. Apparently that caught the wrong somebodies attention and the program received a warning. So the program director told them that he did not expect them to lie about hours, but that anyone caught reporting 79 hours every week would have to report to his office. No change would be made to scheduling, however.
More interesting than that to me, was the reaction among those residents after the meeting. When I expressed my shock about the program directors comments and unyielding attitude, the residents stated that he was right to scold them about not being creative enough in reporting their work hours. They defended him by saying that more hours are a necessity to become a good surgeon through doing more procedures, and that they would rather lie about hours than see a less rigorous schedule. I thought maybe I was even seeing some stockholm syndrome type behavior. I don't know.
So, I gave up any notion of becoming a surgeon.
When I was a student in surgery, I know the residents worked way, way more than the 80 hours a week. One day during a didactic the program director castigated the residents for all reporting their week as being 79 hours. Apparently that caught the wrong somebodies attention and the program received a warning. So the program director told them that he did not expect them to lie about hours, but that anyone caught reporting 79 hours every week would have to report to his office. No change would be made to scheduling, however.
More interesting than that to me, was the reaction among those residents after the meeting. When I expressed my shock about the program directors comments and unyielding attitude, the residents stated that he was right to scold them about not being creative enough in reporting their work hours. They defended him by saying that more hours are a necessity to become a good surgeon through doing more procedures, and that they would rather lie about hours than see a less rigorous schedule. I thought maybe I was even seeing some stockholm syndrome type behavior. I don't know.
So, I gave up any notion of becoming a surgeon.
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I've heard of surgery residents working 130 hours in some weeks.
There have got to be 2 sides to this story. I understand the need to protect patients from overly tired interns but I don't know how excited I am to start my career by having a primary goal be to keep everyone's hours under a certain limit, honestly, especially when I'm only getting 4 months of medicine whereas psych residents in the past for some mysterious reason (at least I think so) used to get a whole year of medicine. Whatever happened to seeing a patient through their entire illness? This applies to the psychiatry part of residency as well of course. I'm not asking for punishment or for a hazing type environment, I'm just saying that it gets discouraging to see people in psych constantly asking about call hours, lifestyle, etc., while surgery residents I know endorse the need to spend as much time as possible with patients in the OR; otherwise how will they learn to be good surgeons? Yeah they get tired and I've seen some complain but still.
A lot of things I'm sure could benefit from change but it probably has to do with efficiency as well as pure number of hours.
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Awesome. Wanna cover call over here this weekend? Wouldn't want to miss out on some of this detox protocol, would you? Highly educational, and I bet you are very efficient.
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Completely agree. I learned more from being on call in residency than in any other venue.
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Awesome. Wanna cover call over here this weekend? Wouldn't want to miss out on some of this detox protocol, would you? Highly educational, and I bet you are very efficient.
Sure, I will come by. I don't want to disappoint you though as I am not actually very efficient. What part of the country are you in? Just tell me you are not in Guam or someplace far flung where I could get stuck and miss taking Step 2.
I am no fool. I know what Stockholm Syndrome is. I like being on call because I've found I learned the most then. I have no wish to be on call every night for the rest of my life but I don't want to not know stuff because I spent my residency trying to avoid things. It takes more effort to avoid things sometimes. And you only live once after all. (The fact that my namesake and her terrible songs have been all but dead for decades notwithstanding.)
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Awesome. Wanna cover call over here this weekend? Wouldn't want to miss out on some of this detox protocol, would you? Highly educational, and I bet you are very efficient.
Ok I am responding to your post a second time because now that I think about it you were making nasty fun of me rather than just joking. Whatever. I didn't come on here to post and say there should be no limits to work hours, even in surgery, I just was trying to say that I can't imagine surgery residents are THAT DUMB.
There are like 80 posts about the chill family friendly psych lifestyle and how it's going to be the next ROAD specialty in this forum per week lately it seems, mostly by med students, so my one little post in the other direction is hardly the laughingstock of the board.
Also, I don't understand your "shock" at the surgery PD's comments and "unyielding attitude." Were/are you really that naive? Did you think that "yielding" would be a very common attribute in surgery PDs?
EDIT AGAIN: You're not even a resident! You're a med student waiting to match! why does your name say "Resident" by it? You're no expert on this. Ha! And no, I won't come by and cover call.
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Here's some questions.
Can people with controversial views become doctors? I have read some of the qualifications to being licensed to practice medicine is you have to have good moral character... etc, so does this preclude those with controversial beliefs from practicing medicine?
If I became a psychiatrist and was also a Pentecostal/Charismatic who believed in spiritual gifts under 1 Cor. 12, would that be bad? (For you nonreligious this includes prophecies and tongues or echolalia, the presence of demonic entities in the spiritual realm, also including hearing voices and seeing visions, which I consider to be a free expression of religious faith with practical applications rather than a psychiatric disorder that needs to be treated).
What kind of GPA should I shoot for to get into an average medical school if I intend on doing well on the MCAT? I've never seen the test but have no reason to believe it should be of unprecedented difficulty.
Can people with controversial views become doctors? I have read some of the qualifications to being licensed to practice medicine is you have to have good moral character... etc, so does this preclude those with controversial beliefs from practicing medicine?
If I became a psychiatrist and was also a Pentecostal/Charismatic who believed in spiritual gifts under 1 Cor. 12, would that be bad? (For you nonreligious this includes prophecies and tongues or echolalia, the presence of demonic entities in the spiritual realm, also including hearing voices and seeing visions, which I consider to be a free expression of religious faith with practical applications rather than a psychiatric disorder that needs to be treated).
What kind of GPA should I shoot for to get into an average medical school if I intend on doing well on the MCAT? I've never seen the test but have no reason to believe it should be of unprecedented difficulty.
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Are psychiatrists/future-psychiatrists successful with women primarily before or after medical school?
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Does anyone have, or know where I can find, a list of competitive psych residencies? Google search brings up a list based on NIH funding, and there seems to be a lot of talk about the "Ivies" on here, but I'm more concerned with numbers of applicants, average scores, etc... Thanks in advance.
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A reader writes: "A few people have said that once you receive an interview invitation your numbers pretty much cease to matter and your interview (and to a lesser extent letters of recommendation) becomes the main criteria used to determine where you're ranked on a program's match list. Can you comment on the validity of this? Thanks!"
Ahh, interview season! The anxieties, the insecurities, the uncertainties, the dreaded "scuttlebutt", rumor, and innuendo!
It's really hard to generalize, but based on the handful of programs I've had personal experience with (and essentially confirmed by others, like Swanny and psychattending, et al) there is some truth to the idea that your numbers get you the interview, and your interview gets you the ranking.
Here's how we work it: I'm on staff at a "midtier" community hospital program (though personally I think we train folks pretty danged well!).
We interview around 60 for 6-8 places. On interview day we hand in an eval sheet to our coordinator which rates the interviewees on several scales--academics, personal commitment to psychiatry, verbal and written communication (of which realistically the personal statement is our only guide), how enthusiastically their letter-writers sang their praises, and even how interested/connected they are to our location. Come February, the coordinator and chiefs will present us with a spreadsheet that preliminarily ranks everyone according to their cumulative scores across all these domains. We'll also announce who we've offered pre-matches to, given that we do see a good number of strong IMGs and DOs. We run through a ppt slide show with everyone's pictures, along with the narrative comments (pro and con) from the evals, and then get down to business.
Basically we end up throwing out 10-15% as just not rankable. The remainder are divided into "pursue", "rank", and "I suppose it would be better to have them than take a random scrambler". The last few years we've filled before getting very far into the bottom half, anyway. We'll argue a bit about where to position some applicants within those top two categories, and it tends to come down to personality, interview style, and occasionally a particularly strong advocacy from a faculty member who knows the applicant. However, I wouldn't say that the final rank list differs tremendously from the preliminary one.
Keep in mind that we want to get good people--folks that will do a good job taking care of our patients, who will show up on time for call, and who really WANT to be psychiatrists. We end up as surprised as you at how the Match falls out in the end sometimes.
Ahh, interview season! The anxieties, the insecurities, the uncertainties, the dreaded "scuttlebutt", rumor, and innuendo!
It's really hard to generalize, but based on the handful of programs I've had personal experience with (and essentially confirmed by others, like Swanny and psychattending, et al) there is some truth to the idea that your numbers get you the interview, and your interview gets you the ranking.
Here's how we work it: I'm on staff at a "midtier" community hospital program (though personally I think we train folks pretty danged well!).
We interview around 60 for 6-8 places. On interview day we hand in an eval sheet to our coordinator which rates the interviewees on several scales--academics, personal commitment to psychiatry, verbal and written communication (of which realistically the personal statement is our only guide), how enthusiastically their letter-writers sang their praises, and even how interested/connected they are to our location. Come February, the coordinator and chiefs will present us with a spreadsheet that preliminarily ranks everyone according to their cumulative scores across all these domains. We'll also announce who we've offered pre-matches to, given that we do see a good number of strong IMGs and DOs. We run through a ppt slide show with everyone's pictures, along with the narrative comments (pro and con) from the evals, and then get down to business.
Basically we end up throwing out 10-15% as just not rankable. The remainder are divided into "pursue", "rank", and "I suppose it would be better to have them than take a random scrambler". The last few years we've filled before getting very far into the bottom half, anyway. We'll argue a bit about where to position some applicants within those top two categories, and it tends to come down to personality, interview style, and occasionally a particularly strong advocacy from a faculty member who knows the applicant. However, I wouldn't say that the final rank list differs tremendously from the preliminary one.
Keep in mind that we want to get good people--folks that will do a good job taking care of our patients, who will show up on time for call, and who really WANT to be psychiatrists. We end up as surprised as you at how the Match falls out in the end sometimes.
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Hi all
I am looking into Psychiatry residency. I passed step, 1 , 2 and CSA in 2006, but i was out of the country with horrible visa issues. I got back in the country after 2 years and i have my Greencard now. Since i had lost two years between 2006 and now, it was v,hard for me to get into residency for the past two matches.
I just found out i passed step three with a score of 80/197. My other scores are 75 ad 76 on step one and step 2 respectively. My step two and CSA was first attempt. Step three i passed on the second attempt, and step one was my worst which i passed on the 4th attempt.
I was wondering if there are any programs in Psychiatry that are flexible with the scores.
I'd appreciate it if anyone can advise me on this...
Kamal
I am looking into Psychiatry residency. I passed step, 1 , 2 and CSA in 2006, but i was out of the country with horrible visa issues. I got back in the country after 2 years and i have my Greencard now. Since i had lost two years between 2006 and now, it was v,hard for me to get into residency for the past two matches.
I just found out i passed step three with a score of 80/197. My other scores are 75 ad 76 on step one and step 2 respectively. My step two and CSA was first attempt. Step three i passed on the second attempt, and step one was my worst which i passed on the 4th attempt.
I was wondering if there are any programs in Psychiatry that are flexible with the scores.
I'd appreciate it if anyone can advise me on this...
Kamal
You'll make into some program. I wouldn't shoot for the stars, but having passed Step 3 will definitely help. I know of a number of programs, even in a competitive place like California, that take a lot of FMGs. You should check individual programs requirements for length of time between grad/step scores and application. Good luck.
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I am in college and currently looking into some medical schools. My intended field to study is psychiatry. I admire the human brain and mind a lot. What medical school would you recommend for me?? Any advice is acceptable
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Generally speaking, the closest one or the cheapest one that is in the USA. Failing that, an international school with an excellent track record of turning out students that do well on the USMLE. There is no med school that has psych secret sauce that guarantees you'll be the next Gabbard or whatever. The true secret sauce is the sweat of your own brow.
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How competitive would you say the psych field is?
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We tend to beat neurology and neurosurgery both at pub trivia.
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What top 5 undergraduate programs would you suggest to prepare for psychiatry, even more specific neuropsychiatry?
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Hey Guys,
Could use some clarity here, where does the "neuro" come into becoming a Neuropsychiatrist? I would like to end up as a Neuropsychiatrist but havent found specific answers on how to become that and where the neurology comes into the schooling and the entire path?
Thanks in advance everyone!
Could use some clarity here, where does the "neuro" come into becoming a Neuropsychiatrist? I would like to end up as a Neuropsychiatrist but havent found specific answers on how to become that and where the neurology comes into the schooling and the entire path?
Thanks in advance everyone!
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I would say anything that prepares you for med school. Get the degree that interests you, but historically, that has been Biology or Chemistry, with a few Psychology thrown in, and some rare English, History, Business, Music, etc too.
I'm not sure that a Psychology degree would prepare you that much better for psychiatry than any other degree, but perhaps slightly. At least take a couple psych classes if you have an interest. That being said, most non-bio degrees mean some of your required pre-med classes (organic chemistry, etc) won't count toward your undergrad degree (or will be electives).
Anyways, we'll see what some of the actual psychiatrists say (I'm just a 4th year med student at this point), but your primary goal should be getting into med school. That means rocking grades, killing the MCAT, and whatever will allow you excel while fulfilling your interests.
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Thats great info!! thanks for youre input!! And I am very intrested in what a psychiatrist has to say? any one have more info? would be greatly appreciated.
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hey guys,
is it legal for psychiatrist to prescribe herbal medicines without being board certified in integrative medicine?
thank you!
K
is it legal for psychiatrist to prescribe herbal medicines without being board certified in integrative medicine?
thank you!
K
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What "herbal medicine" requires a prescription?
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Well, in certain states...
I'm currently considering pursuing an MD/PhD with a PhD in either neuroscience or neuropsychology. I was wondering if you would be able to give me a ballpark estimate of what I could expect as a tenured professor. I'm hoping to do an 80/20 research/patient balance.
Any input on whether the PhD will offer enough benefit to warrant the extra 4-5 years of lost salary? I wouldn't have any medical school debt but I'm still not sure it makes financial sense.
I'm also seeing a lot of advice to head towards psychology if i'm interested in therapy, but I do think I would like to employ CBT and the like in work with my patients. Is this that uncommon with psychiatrists? I don't feel comfortable just prescribing meds unless I'm sure a patient has some sort of therapy on top of it.
Any input on whether the PhD will offer enough benefit to warrant the extra 4-5 years of lost salary? I wouldn't have any medical school debt but I'm still not sure it makes financial sense.
I'm also seeing a lot of advice to head towards psychology if i'm interested in therapy, but I do think I would like to employ CBT and the like in work with my patients. Is this that uncommon with psychiatrists? I don't feel comfortable just prescribing meds unless I'm sure a patient has some sort of therapy on top of it.
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Even if you're fortunate enough to achieve tenure rapidly at a "name brand" institution, there's no way an academic salary--MD, PhD, or MD/PhD--is going to match what you pass up by not entering practice. That's just the hard, cold reality. Go into academia because it's your passion, not in hopes of big compensation.
And yes, lots of psychiatrists combine various therapies, especially CBT, with their medication management.
Thanks for the prompt reply. I haven't quite decided yet if I'm wild enough about research to give up a higher salary. I also know that getting tenure is by no means a sure thing and it sounds like a pretty stressful situation.
What do most psychiatrists do practice-wise? Their own private practice? Working at a psychiatric hospital? A regular hospital? Combination of some of the above?
I'm trying to envision what a "day in the life of a psychiatrist" would be. I very much like the idea of building my own practice because of the flexibility it offers, but it also comes with a tradeoff of less security. Is it possible to work at a mental hospital or regular hospital and have your own outpatient practice on the side?
Thanks for this thread by the way, has been immensely helpful.
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There are numerous ways to construct a career--the main "branch points" in your decision tree when you get to residency will be "Do I prefer inpatient or outpatient?" If the former, "Do I want to focus on primary psychiatric problems, or consult on psychiatric problems in medically ill patients?" If the latter, "Do I want to work on my own, or in a group practice? Will I emphasize medication management, or therapy, or some combination of the two?"
And yes, it's possible to dabble in more than one of the above, but most docs find that they are happiest when they're working on what they enjoy most and are best at.
Thanks OldPsychDoc! I just read through the "how to make money in psychiatry thread" that was from several years back and it was incredibly depressing (Before it derailed into whether psychiatrists or psychologists are better). Can I reasonably expect to make around 200k provided I work 50-60 hours a week? Are there any avenues that just don't offer enough profit to make sense working in?
Some of the advice given just rubbed me the wrong way, like charging people to respond to emails and calls and only taking cash patients while charging exorbitant amounts. Is it possible to give complete, honestly patient-health driven care and still take home a good salary? Would subspecializing in child or forensics help? (Both of these fields are interesting to me)
I realize this may make me sound like I'm trying to go into this for the money, which is far from the case. I just can't see myself going into the field if I can't expect to support myself and my husband comfortably while paying off both of our loans.
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i suggest you try to go do some observership/volunteer/shadowing of psychiatrists and or psychologists, and decide what u are drawn to... get out there, if you can, and do some reality testing. Its a long road..scour these threads, go to the websites, go to the local med school, talk with ur UG profs...really dig deep here..it's a big decision to pursue MD school..talk to some MD/PhD students too, and PhD solely...focus on what you really love to do, or think you'd love to do, and worry about the money in 10 years, not now.
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This general topic has been on my mind for a while, and a few recent conversations with a practicing neuro-psychiatrist and psychology graduate might be helpful to summarize here, since the question has come up a couple of times.
My graduate friend dual majored in psychology and English, and she states firmly that her English degree has been more helpful to her starting her psychology career than her psychology degree. I am an English major, so I am biased, but I have taken a few social science classes and think that her reasoning is based on how each field of study works. Undergraduate psychology approaches behavior scientifically -- it spreads out the world of ideas in human behavior and has you draw conclusions from that. A fantastic database for research.
Studying literature works differently. We get a piece of writing like a bit of raw material and are asked to dig out the ideas ourselves and articulate them. That sharpens a thinking skill that you don't get in memorization majors. Personally, at least, I feel that I learned more about human behavior from lit than I ever did in a Psych or Anthropology class. Now, mileage varies between faculties, particularly in the humanities, but that's my impression.
The psychiatrist I mentioned earlier had similar things to say; both of her children are studying Writing, one of whom has plans for medicine.
I've heard of a certain program at Sinai (I think) that trains a handful of privileged undergrads in a humanities-exclusive program before medical school, and I recall the statistics stated that upwards of 50% of them ended up in psychiatry residencies.
Something to think about, if nothing else. Humanities get a poor reputation because of their low immediate payoff at the BA level, but I would think those kinds of skills paired with a medical degree could go a long way in psychiatry, or any specialty that relies heavily on patient relations. Then again, I'm only a biased undergrad myself, so I may be entirely off.
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Since no one is adding the following thread as a sticky, I figured why not just stick it to this one. The DO FAQ: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=992027
