Psychiatry is the worst specialty in medicine...except for all the others

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northernpsy

Psychiatrist. No, I'm not analyzing you
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(Apologies to Churchill for my thread title there).

I have to admit that being an attending psychiatrist has not been quite as rosy as I imagined it being back when I was in medical school. I always thought that the hard part would be getting through med school and residency. Life as an attending would be a breeze. Hahaha. Not really true, at least with my current job (I think most of us don't get our dream job right out of residency, right?).

I also find myself sometimes just getting down about the social aspects of our specialty: things such as how we are sometimes expected to solve problems that really are not medical/psychiatric in nature but more social problems (like admissions that really are just for Homelessness NOS and not truly due to a psych issue), or how some view us as a benzo/stimulant vending machine.

However, sometimes, when I read the rants and vents of other specialties, I remember that it really could be a lot worse. A lot of our brothers and sisters in other specialties have to deal with similar frustrations or worse, often working worse hours with more liability and in some cases even making less money for all that hassle.
This week has been a little trying for me because I had a rough weekend on call and the fun kept coming during the regular workweek, but I'm definitely trying to focus on being grateful. I am lucky to have a job that really can be quite interesting and fun sometimes even though it's still a JOB. Happy Friday to anyone who isn't working the weekend.

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Medicine struggles from a funny culture where we're always told (and always drink the Kool aid) on how it's a calling. The whole specialty selection doesn't help, as we reinforce this idea that you do what you love. We're taught by society, and we're egotistical enough about ourselves and how we view our ambitions, that we're selflessly serving, not looking at the clock, and not thinking about compensation. We're altruistic, or at least that's what we've artificially determined is what we should achieve to be. This is driven to an extreme by people (administrators, politicians) who do it to butter us up, aiming for penetration, yet after being primed by years of exposure to "professionalism" and "having empathy and compassion," we eat this up, eager to prove ourselves as the best, the most willing to sacrifice and the most compassionate, as if we're the dependent partner in an abusive relationship (maybe if we work harder to please they won't think so down of us -- we need to prove it to them).

It doesn't help that the majority of our culture is shaped by not having experience in other careers or really having any job experience outside of medicine. So we have this idea that you're supposed to "love" your job and get rather disillusioned when we find out it's a just a job. Then we feel guilty about that because of how sensitive we are about living up to some aspects of the silly standards we've created.
 
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I'll be starting work as an attending soon and I agree that the rough times really never end. The number of patients you need to see to make a certain income, already starting to deal with insurance companies, billing codes making my head spin a little already, and yes, liability. Plus, we still have to keep up to date on new medications, guidelines, studies, etc. I spend a lot of time wondering what life would be like for me if I decided not to go into medicine. Then again, a lot of other lines of work don't pay as well and I guess I'll never really know unless I decide to leave medicine all together. Which at this point I can't. Buy hey, if I never went into medicine, I could be lamenting that as well. Anyways, I agree. I also get frustrated after seeing how so many psychiatric admissions were really things like psychosocial stressors NOS. Or how people expect us to be able to forecast who will commit suicide/homicide, specifically when, and be able to prevent all of them. How a lot of people want us to solve their problems with a pill, etc. Plus, I still have a lot of family and friends who keep confusing my profession with therapy and keep thinking I'm some sort of psychoanalytic therapist and don't even consider me a physician. On the other hand, I'm grateful I'm not in ob/gyn or neurosurgery. The hours and liability are just daunting.
 
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Ugh, I think I'm joining you in the exhaustion in that I also worked last weekend and have had a trying week for various personal and professional reasons (a sick patient who isn't getting better, and I have no clue wth is going on (really a medical patient but we're stuck with her for now), upcoming vacation (good thing!) and stress about an upcoming job transition). My emotional reserve drops a bit after a weekend of work. But yeah, I'd probably rather be doing this than anything else.

I'm hoping for a good weekend -- current plans include hanging out with a friend, going for a hike and getting a semi-long (for me) run in. Oh yeah, and sleeping late at least one day and sitting around and drinking coffee in the morning.

I still think being an attending is a lot better than being a resident. Other things that are good -- I having an upcoming somewhat unexpected $2k expense coming up, which seemed kind of like nothing, like not even worth stressing out.
 
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(Apologies to Churchill for my thread title there).

I have to admit that being an attending psychiatrist has not been quite as rosy as I imagined it being back when I was in medical school. I always thought that the hard part would be getting through med school and residency. Life as an attending would be a breeze. Hahaha. Not really true, at least with my current job (I think most of us don't get our dream job right out of residency, right?).

I also find myself sometimes just getting down about the social aspects of our specialty: things such as how we are sometimes expected to solve problems that really are not medical/psychiatric in nature but more social problems (like admissions that really are just for Homelessness NOS and not truly due to a psych issue), or how some view us as a benzo/stimulant vending machine.

However, sometimes, when I read the rants and vents of other specialties, I remember that it really could be a lot worse. A lot of our brothers and sisters in other specialties have to deal with similar frustrations or worse, often working worse hours with more liability and in some cases even making less money for all that hassle.
This week has been a little trying for me because I had a rough weekend on call and the fun kept coming during the regular workweek, but I'm definitely trying to focus on being grateful. I am lucky to have a job that really can be quite interesting and fun sometimes even though it's still a JOB. Happy Friday to anyone who isn't working the weekend.
Any thought about going outpatient only?
 
Unexpected yet upcoming? Seems you really are worn down!

upcoming also coming up which is how I ended the statement. :) But is actually both unexpected and upcoming -- or kind of unexpected (long story) -- but anyway, being out $2k would have been a much more significant stressor just a few years ago. Now it's kind of, eh that sucks but whatever.
 
I serve an underserved/underinsured/uninsured population in an outpatient setting. Hours are 8AM-5PM. I'm usually done by 5. I love my job- it beats anything in residency and fellowship, and patients are generally quite appreciative. Seeing a lot of patients in the outpatient setting can be someone else's version of hell, but it works for me. My work is much easier than what I was doing in fellowship, and I get paid well to do it. It really is a great gig, and I'm really grateful to be doing what I love.
 
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(Apologies to Churchill for my thread title there).

I have to admit that being an attending psychiatrist has not been quite as rosy as I imagined it being back when I was in medical school. I always thought that the hard part would be getting through med school and residency. Life as an attending would be a breeze. Hahaha. Not really true, at least with my current job (I think most of us don't get our dream job right out of residency, right?).

I also find myself sometimes just getting down about the social aspects of our specialty: things such as how we are sometimes expected to solve problems that really are not medical/psychiatric in nature but more social problems (like admissions that really are just for Homelessness NOS and not truly due to a psych issue), or how some view us as a benzo/stimulant vending machine.

However, sometimes, when I read the rants and vents of other specialties, I remember that it really could be a lot worse. A lot of our brothers and sisters in other specialties have to deal with similar frustrations or worse, often working worse hours with more liability and in some cases even making less money for all that hassle.

If you are hanging out with physicians in other specialties who make less money than most of us in here, you are hanging out with the wrong physicians. Hang out with private practice people who do lots of quick procedures, or hang out with internists who see a ton of patients. I know for a fact that the ppc(per partner compensation) at the largest GI group here for example is 1.1 million. Do those guys work more than us? Sure. But not 4 times as hard. mgma numbers for procedure based specialists in private practice in many areas are laughable.....those guys often make more than that by April.
 
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Even with its issues, I actually like inpatient psych more than outpatient psych (at least so far - I may find I like outpatient more in a different environment than what I've experienced so far). I do sometimes get nostalgic for the relationships I had with patients in the outpatient world, and often wonder about how some of the patients I got to know over several years during residency are doing now, but quite frankly there are also patients where I am relieved that we DON'T have a long term relationship. :p
I think this kind of goes back to my dismay about how psychiatry is used to treat "social" problems. Most of the patients who clearly have a legitimate Axis I diagnosis (yes, I know I know, we aren't doing Axes anymore but it's still handy) are quite enjoyable to work with in my opinion. The problems start with someone gets admitted to us who doesn't actually have a psychiatric diagnosis but is just kind of an obnoxious person. Not everyone who is obnoxious is suffering from psychiatric illness IMO.
Oh, and while we're on the subject, homicidal ideation doesn't necessarily mean someone is psychiatrically ill either. Yes, sometimes psychotic people become homicidal, and then I'm all over it, but if someone is homicidal because they're angry that some other guy stole his drugs or his woman, then I don't think that it is really our job to try to "treat" that.

In the outpatient world, no, you don't get these types of admissions, but you do get people bothering you about dubious disability paperwork (God have mercy on your soul if you have to deal with "emotional support animal" or "medical" marijuana paperwork), and plenty of other stuff that I am sure those of you who deal more with that domain can point to as not meaning the grass is greener.
 
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If you are hanging out with physicians in other specialties who make less money than most of us in here, you are hanging out with the wrong physicians. Hang out with private practice people who do lots of quick procedures, or hang out with internists who see a ton of patients. I know for a fact that the ppc(per partner compensation) at the largest GI group here for example is 1.1 million. Do those guys work more than us? Sure. But not 4 times as hard. mgma numbers for procedure based specialists in private practice in many areas are laughable.....those guys often make more than that by April.

Yes, there are some specialties/subspecialties that still have a pretty cush setup, but plenty of others who don't. For example, while GI may have it good, people in general internal medicine definitely have a lot to complain about and in some cases they don't make any more than we do.

Yes, an internist CAN see patients on an assembly line to maximize income, but I wouldn't like that or feel like I was giving good care if I did. In my own experiences as a patient, I know that there have been a couple of times when docs I've seen who were cranking out the RVUs and always rushing forgot to follow up on things they should have. It's not a big deal in my case because I know what I need and can remind my doc to recheck something or order something I need :p but for a patient who is relying on the doc to keep up with everything, that's not a good situation.

Isn't GI pretty competitive? There are probably some people who try to get into GI that end up having to do general IM instead. That was the biggest reason I decided not to try to get into IM-->heme/onc myself. I would not want to be stuck in general IM, because so many general IM people seem unhappy (anecdotally, but also just looking at how some docs are now trying to do things like concierge practices to get out of the insurance game).

Another example of a specialty that IMO has it worse than we do: I am almost certain my kid's pediatrician makes substantially less money than I do, and she has to deal with anti-vaccine parents. :p Not to mention that pediatricians are often on the front lines of some of the problems that child psych has to deal with.

All that being said, money ain't everything. I make plenty of money, but I don't feel that I am actually substantially happier than I was when I was making a five figure income. Once you have enough money that you don't have to worry about money, it stops seeming so important IMO. Once I have paid off my loans and saved up some money for my kid's education, I will probably look for a less stressful job even if it means taking a pay cut.
 
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Yes, an internist CAN see patients on an assembly line to maximize income, but I wouldn't like that or feel like I was giving good care if I did. In my own experiences as a patient, I know that there have been a couple of times when docs I've seen who were cranking out the RVUs and always rushing forgot to follow up on things they should have. It's not a big deal in my case because I know what I need and can remind my doc to recheck something or order something I need :p but for a patient who is relying on the doc to keep up with everything, that's not a good situation.

Isn't GI pretty competitive? There are probably some people who try to get into GI that end up having to do general IM instead. That was the biggest reason I decided not to try to get into IM-->heme/onc myself. I would not want to be stuck in general IM, because so many general IM people seem unhappy (anecdotally, but also just looking at how some docs are now trying to do things like concierge practices to get out of the insurance game).
\

GI is crazy competitive.

I think most competitive ATM are Cards, GI, Critical Care. Heme/onc I think it up there with those, or maybe a step down. The first 3 seem like the holy trinity of competitiveness. The first two I think are the top $$$.

I think general IM can feel like selling your soul to Satan.

Hospitalists with their one week on and one week off sounds like a dream, except for the 12-16 hour days when you're on. Someone told me it's like being an overglorified resident in terms of workload. And they get more than their share of social admits too.

The corner cutting I saw inpt felt pretty yucky. The quality of care inpt I thought was OKish.

The quality of care outpt if it's the statistical 8 min each patient "facetime" (with the computer) I find not only stressful but just feels like crap care. To me it's what I imagine feeding dogfood to children would feel like.
 
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GI is crazy competitive.

I think most competitive ATM are Cards, GI, Critical Care. Heme/onc I think it up there with those, or maybe a step down. The first 3 seem like the holy trinity of competitiveness. The first two I think are the top $$$.

I think general IM can feel like selling your soul to Satan.

Hospitalists with their one week on and one week off sounds like a dream, except for the 12-16 hour days when you're on. Someone told me it's like being an overglorified resident in terms of workload. And they get more than their share of social admits too.

The corner cutting I saw inpt felt pretty yucky. The quality of care inpt I thought was OKish.

The quality of care outpt if it's the statistical 8 min each patient "facetime" (with the computer) I find not only stressful but just feels like crap care. To me it's what I imagine feeding dogfood to children would feel like.

Yeah, maybe there's no promised land. Well, except maybe derm ...

Outpatient primary care would I think be miserable if you cared at all about money. If you didn't and could take as much time as you liked with patient, it could be pretty awesome. Of course psych would be awesome too if you never had to worry about things like volume/income and could do whatever you wanted.

I do think our salaries might still kind of suck, though. I was looking on the pathology forum (which supposedly is a field with a horrible job market) and someone was posting about making $310k/year with no nights/weekends, good benefits and 8 weeks of vacation. I've not heard of that job in psychiatry.
 
Yeah, maybe there's no promised land. Well, except maybe derm ...

Outpatient primary care would I think be miserable if you cared at all about money. If you didn't and could take as much time as you liked with patient, it could be pretty awesome. Of course psych would be awesome too if you never had to worry about things like volume/income and could do whatever you wanted.

I do think our salaries might still kind of suck, though. I was looking on the pathology forum (which supposedly is a field with a horrible job market) and someone was posting about making $310k/year with no nights/weekends, good benefits and 8 weeks of vacation. I've not heard of that job in psychiatry.

I was gonna say weird, I heard good things about path job market, but remembered it's ONLY for forensic pathology, which I believe takes a good deal more training.

Outpt primary care I think can ROCK if you can control time and don't care about money. But there is no promised land as you said. Boutique/concierge is better but has it's own problems, and I can't help but think if I did it, would also feel like selling out. The care is likely better but I have ethical issues with it as far as who can afford to be your patient population, allocation of doc resources, smaller patient panel, etc.

Your guys' salaries suck comparatively, but the last data I saw said you guys reported the best work life balance. Which you would think would = most happiness yet doesn't. But there's all these other measures where the "most" specialty differs, like happiness, satisfaction, feeling compensation is fair, etc. I don't know those. I think rheum reported most happiness, which people find surprising for the same reasons they think it's crazy that people like psych. (social issues, chronicity, unhappy patients you can't "fix") Unfortunately, the path to lifestyle subspecialties like rheum or endo go through IM.
 
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I do think our salaries might still kind of suck, though. I was looking on the pathology forum (which supposedly is a field with a horrible job market) and someone was posting about making $310k/year with no nights/weekends, good benefits and 8 weeks of vacation. I've not heard of that job in psychiatry.[/QUOTE]

I saw that post too. It was also 4 days per week and leaving by 3pm. No social issues to deal with either.
 
I do think our salaries might still kind of suck, though. I was looking on the pathology forum (which supposedly is a field with a horrible job market) and someone was posting about making $310k/year with no nights/weekends, good benefits and 8 weeks of vacation. I've not heard of that job in psychiatry.[/QUOTE]

I saw that post too. It was also 4 days per week and leaving by 3pm. No social issues to deal with either.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it seemed amazing. Was it super atypical? The replies seemed to indicate that it was good but not amazingly good. $300k in psych period is pretty good especially if you're not killing yourself. I can't really see a way in my life to make that much without working more than one weekend a month. Of course I'm still new to this and probably not savvy enough so I might be missing something.
 
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Obviously I agree that we are asked to deal with problems we have no hope in hell of helping but I think it is a shame that psychiatry has turned its back on the social nature of the specialty. Once upon a time medical students went into psychiatry because it concerned itself with social problems. in fact when psychiatry was at its most social it was at its most popular with as many of 10% of medical students going into the specialty. Conversely during the 90s when psychiatry was at its most biological,residency programs were forced to closed or downsize and relied heavily on IMGs because no one wanted to do it). For those who had an interest in social justice and humanitarianism psychiatry was the natural choice. Not any more. the main social psychiatry association is run by psychologists. medical students interested in social justice go into family medicine or pediatrics. psychiatrists today are completely unfamiliar with the classical or contemporary literature on social psychiatry. Like it or not, poverty, inequality, homelessness, crime, discrimination, marginalization, and so on are inexorably intertwined with mental disorder. There is no discrete boundary between "social problem" and "mental illness" because "mental illness" is a social problem. Social, political and economic factors influence mental illness at every turn: from who gets sick, the form and content of their symptoms, and the illnesses they develop, the treatments that are available, the course their illness takes, and the outcome of their life-story. The social world also influences the lived experience of mental illness, including all too frequently stigma, prejudice, discrimination, inequality and exclusion.

If anyone is interested this is the transcript for a talk i gave at the IPS meeting last year on the decline of social psychiatry:

In the 1960s and 1970s, psychiatrists concerned themselves with problems of crime, racism, violence, gender inequality, human rights, war, nuclear disarmament, and how the sociopolitical influenced the mental. Though American Psychiatry’s brief foray into solving the social ills of the time proved too-overarching, by the 1980s American Psychiatry had all but completely abandoned the social world, instead locating the sources of discontent not in society, community and state, but brain, cell and molecule. The remedicalization of psychiatry and the ascendance of a new biological psychiatry were intimately tied to the politics of neoliberalism, and psychiatry’s increased focus on brain and biology helped obfuscate the wider social determinants of mental health. The failure of neuroscience and genetics to revolutionize the treatment of mental illness, the emergence of social epidemiology, and the growing concern about the widening of inequality in our society mean the time is now ripe for psychiatry to re-engage with the social world.

A few days ago I was talking to some psychiatry residents about this upcoming symposium and they asked me, “what is social psychiatry?” This question will surprise no one but should astound everyone, especially if we were to replace “social” with “biological”. No medical student or resident would ever ask what biological psychiatry is, but social psychiatry’s decline has been so precipitous that psychiatrists of today are not familiar with psychiatry’s foray into social ills, social commentary, and the focus on the social roots of illness. Many of the classic studies in the field like Faris and Dunham’s study of Schizophrenia, the Midtown Manhattan Project, Hollingshead and Redlich’s work on social class and mental illness, Brown and Harris’ work on life events and illness have escaped a generation by. The critiques of psychiatry of the 60s from the likes of Goffman, Szasz, Laing, Foucault and so on have escaped a generation by. “Antipsychiatry” is more likely to be associated with Scientology today than any credible critiques of the profession.

For one definition of social psychiatry we can turn to the WHO’s 1959 technical report on the subject. This committee was chaired by Robert Felix who was the first Head of the newly formed National Institute for Mental Health. Felix said amongst other things: ““[Psychiatrists should be] involved in education, social work, industry, the churches, recreation, and the courts, so that mental health care would be fully integrated into the total social environment” The 1959 report notes “social psychiatry might eventually provide the means of creating a saner or perhaps a completely sane world”. His successor Stanley Yolles wrote that mental health professionals should “improve the lives of people by bettering their physical environment, their educational and cultural opportunities, and other social and environmental conditions. The conditions of poverty, since they constitute a breeding ground for mental disease, require the professional involvement of the psychiatry”. Such a different conception of psychiatry that we have today. You couldn’t imagine Tom Insel the outgoing NIMH Director saying such words…

If you look at the APA meetings of years gone by you can also see a sea-change. The topics were more sociopolitical and community oriented up until the 1970s. By 1980, the pendulum had swung with a significant focus on biological aspects of psychiatry, psychopharmacology and the new DSM. We moved from society, community and state, to brain, cell and molecule. The forces at work were many, and I do not want to pretend that social psychiatry was ever a predominant force in American Psychiatry because it wasn’t. Much of what was social was eclipsed by the psychodynamic and the two curiously melded together with the effect there was much more focus on the individual’s psyche in the social world, or a look at family or group dynamics and not the structure of society itself. At the same time there was a real enthusiasm for psychiatry, the community treatment of the mentally ill, and social justice oriented medical students would choose psychiatry right up until the 1970s. The data that we have on recruitment clearly shows that psychiatry is at least popular when it is at its most biological. The heyday of psychiatry was after the second world war and the intervening years when psychiatrists concerned themselves not only with psychoanalysis and the new psychopharmacological agents but also social justice: racism, crime, violence, gender, inequality, poverty, even nuclear disarmament. As such psychiatrists were beginning to become aware of how the sociopolitical affected the mental. By the 1970s a growing awareness of the sexual violence that was perpetrated against women, and criticism of the Vietnam war coalesced into the diagnosis of PTSD which entered the diagnostic nomenclature in 1980 as a damning indictment of war in Vietnam and the war at home. Of note, unlike war neurosis, shell shock and similar terms beforehand, PTSD was viewed as a normal response to situations outside the usual range of human experience. Given that it was known this wasn’t the case well before, it could only be seen as a sociopolitical definition and not simply the state of knowledge at the time.

So why the decline? Part of the problem was there was no true social psychiatry. Psychiatry had always had a role in managing subjectivity and regulating conformity rather than liberation, unlike say the radical tradition in French psychoanalysis. Social psychiatry occupied a space in what was a primarily psychodynamically oriented psychiatry, one that privileged the internal over the external, fantasy over social reality. By the time more analytically oriented psychiatrists accepted the significance of actual life events and trauma, psychiatry had already moved on. Part of the problem was that many of the aims were too lofty. While a psychodynamically model provided a frame for intellectual analysis of problems far beyond the realm of mental illness, pragmatic solutions were not forthcoming, and ultimately not the in the province of psychiatry. Psychiatrists could not provide racial harmony, address inequalities and poverty, let alone have to power to meaningfully advocate for nuclear disarmament. And most crushingly, the optimism of following the community mental health act and the passage of Medicare did not lead to the funds to support the vision or the anticipated universal healthcare coverage for the populace.

What I want to focus on however is how the decline of social psychiatry, and the ascendance of biological psychiatry was intimately tied to the politics of neoliberalism. By this I am talking about a series of policies influenced by laissez-faire economics that promotes deregulation of industries, privatization, financial austerity, and the wide scale application of market forces in every sphere of life. Whatever positives may be associated with such policies: driving innovation, supporting business, allowing wealth creation proponents point out, these policies fail to protect to vulnerable in our society and lead to job and financial insecurity, and widening inequality which we know affect physical and health outcomes. These policies created widespread misery, which drives desire, which in turn drives consumption. Social psychiatry was a political threat because it highlights how the social, political and economic landscape influences mental health. By focusing on brain and biology, on molecules and cells, we obfuscate the wider causes of mental distress, no longer the product of an insecure economic landscape or a toxic workplace, but twisted molecules and defective genes. Biological psychiatry says the problem isn’t poverty, inequality, or social exclusion – the problem is you. As we can see the research agenda was significantly influenced by the political landscape – there was a precipitous decline in psychosocial publications in the AJP in the early 1980s. The politics of neoliberalism is a project that transforms collective social responsibility into private individual one. In this way it is antithetical to social psychiatry.

The second phase of the neoliberal agenda has been – for good or for ill – the transformation into patients into consumers. This may have had the positive effects that psychiatrist Joanna Moncrieff notes including leading the greater patient/consumer involvement in care and greater rights, but it also has the effect of transforming sickness that often has deep social roots into a market place. With the announcement that Tom Insel will join Google to help develop new technologies for mental illness the transformation is complete. Mental illness is now not only completely uncoupled from the social environment, it is also wedded to marketized one where companies vie to create and sell products – with little regulation of course – to those experiencing mental distress.

This has wider implications. By focusing narrowly on the individual and relocated the problem within the self essentially sees the psychiatrist managing subjectivity, in the role of adjusting individuals to situations we should not perhaps not adjust to, using pharmacotherapy. People come to see themselves as somehow fundamentally biologically defected. As sociologist Nikolas Rose noted, we have come to recode our mood in neurochemical selves. Psychiatry profited handsomely from the remedicalization of the profession. The DSM generated significant revenues for the APA, and a wider range of problems came to fall under the purview of psychiatry expanding the borders of mental illness. In turn, an unprecedented level of the population uses psychotropic agents. In recent years, accusations of an unholy alliance between the pharmaceutical companies and psychiatry, and the mass proliferation of psychiatric diagnoses, as well as the continual reshaping on the boundaries between mental health and illness have brought the profession into disrepute. The evidence base for many psychiatric interventions has been called into question. The validity of psychiatric diagnoses has also been criticized even from those within the profession. The increasing focus on the biomedical at the expense of the psychosocial has led some commentators such as Glen Gabbard and Leon Eisenberg to note that many younger psychiatrists do not appear to know how to even listen to their patients:

"The success of neuroscience has exacted costs.The very elegance of research in neuroscience has led psychiatry to focus so exclusively on the brain as an organ that the experience of the patient as a person has receded below the horizon of our vision. We had for so long been pilloried by our medical and surgical colleagues as witchdoctors and wooly minded thinkers that many of us now seek professional respectability by adhering to a reductionistic model of mental disorder. We have traded the one-sidedness of the brainless psychiatry of the first half of the 20th century for a mindless psychiatry of the second half."

Psychiatry hasn’t just become mindless it has also become aimless and placeless. There is no context to the genes and neural circuitry that have been so privileged in the emerging discourse for our psychic woes. If as is often claimed psychiatry is in crisis, then we are presented with a wonderful opportunity. We have the opportunity to learn from these mistakes. Most psychiatrists regard themselves as having a biopsychosocial orientation. For too long, the “social” has been an afterthought, if considered at all. And yet our brains do not exist in a vacuum. They operate within complex systems and interpersonal networks.
Can't help but think that the optimal training pathway to take this approach probably does not run through medical schools, honestly
 
I do think our salaries might still kind of suck, though. I was looking on the pathology forum (which supposedly is a field with a horrible job market) and someone was posting about making $310k/year with no nights/weekends, good benefits and 8 weeks of vacation. I've not heard of that job in psychiatry.


Yeah, it seemed amazing. Was it super atypical? The replies seemed to indicate that it was good but not amazingly good. $300k in psych period is pretty good especially if you're not killing yourself. I can't really see a way in my life to make that much without working more than one weekend a month. Of course I'm still new to this and probably not savvy enough so I might be missing something.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is forensic. The non-forensic types generally do at least 1-2 fellowships before even trying their luck on the job market. Also, a couple years back, there were some clinical pathology jobs in upstate New York advertised at 90k a year.

Edit: somehow part of another post ended up in mine quoted inadvertently. I am not super eager to avoid social issues per se
 
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I saw that post too. It was also 4 days per week and leaving by 3pm. No social issues to deal with either.

Yeah, it seemed amazing. Was it super atypical? The replies seemed to indicate that it was good but not amazingly good. $300k in psych period is pretty good especially if you're not killing yourself. I can't really see a way in my life to make that much without working more than one weekend a month. Of course I'm still new to this and probably not savvy enough so I might be missing something.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is forensic. The non-forensic types generally do at least 1-2 fellowships before even trying their luck on the job market. Also, a couple years back, there were some clinical pathology jobs in upstate New York advertised at 90k a year.[/QUOTE]

I doubt it was Forensics. Forensics is on the lower end (think 150k-200k)... local government/state level jobs. Forensics is the best subspecialty for the Path job market though. Path is the land of haves and have nots. The HAVEs have it reallllly good. Pathology is top tier specialty if you can land one of those jobs. I have seen many threads and talked to many people. The consensus is that you can make Pathology work for you if:

1. You are geographically flexible - think regionally and even the entire USA
2. You train at a good program - pedigree CAN help in a saturated market
3. You are an AMG with good networking skills
4. You are a hard worker and know more than the next guy
5. Luck out and chose a fellowship that a particular PP needs at that exact moment in time
 
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Splik, I do really enjoy your perspective and I certainly can appreciate the value of having an interest in the social aspects of psychiatry since, for better or worse, it has become our domain.

However, the way I see it, in a world where there is ostensibly a shortage of psychiatrists, is it really the best use of limited resources to have a psychiatrist trying to "treat" problems that it doesn't require a medical degree to treat? I don't think you need an MD and 4 year residency to try to find housing for a homeless guy.

I do think it makes a lot of sense for psychiatrists to become involved in politics or the community in a way that is informed by our experiences dealing with the mentally ill, just as it would make sense for any physician to be engaged politically and in the community.

However, since our training is in medicine, I think it makes sense to make the biggest focus of our professional time things that are clearly within the domain of medicine and that require the understanding of biology, anatomy, pharmacology that comes with being an MD/DO. There are probably lots of MSWs who can more articulately and passionately raise awareness about the social problems homeless drug addicts face than I can. I think I can probably speak more articulately about psychoneuroimmunology or treating psychosis in a pregnant woman than the average MSW though.

When doctors are doing the jobs of case managers and social workers, it confuses everyone about whose responsibility it is to make sure something gets done AND it also gives midlevel providers the idea that they can do our jobs just as well. When we are spending a large portion of our time "treating" patients that really don't need the knowledge and clinical skills of a physician in the first place, then maybe the midlevels are right!
 
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Obviously I agree that we are asked to deal with problems we have no hope in hell of helping but I think it is a shame that psychiatry has turned its back on the social nature of the specialty. Once upon a time medical students went into psychiatry because it concerned itself with social problems. in fact when psychiatry was at its most social it was at its most popular with as many of 10% of medical students going into the specialty. Conversely during the 90s when psychiatry was at its most biological,residency programs were forced to closed or downsize and relied heavily on IMGs because no one wanted to do it). For those who had an interest in social justice and humanitarianism psychiatry was the natural choice. Not any more. the main social psychiatry association is run by psychologists. medical students interested in social justice go into family medicine or pediatrics. psychiatrists today are completely unfamiliar with the classical or contemporary literature on social psychiatry. Like it or not, poverty, inequality, homelessness, crime, discrimination, marginalization, and so on are inexorably intertwined with mental disorder. There is no discrete boundary between "social problem" and "mental illness" because "mental illness" is a social problem. Social, political and economic factors influence mental illness at every turn: from who gets sick, the form and content of their symptoms, and the illnesses they develop, the treatments that are available, the course their illness takes, and the outcome of their life-story. The social world also influences the lived experience of mental illness, including all too frequently stigma, prejudice, discrimination, inequality and exclusion.

If anyone is interested this is the transcript for a talk i gave at the IPS meeting last year on the decline of social psychiatry:

In the 1960s and 1970s, psychiatrists concerned themselves with problems of crime, racism, violence, gender inequality, human rights, war, nuclear disarmament, and how the sociopolitical influenced the mental. Though American Psychiatry’s brief foray into solving the social ills of the time proved too-overarching, by the 1980s American Psychiatry had all but completely abandoned the social world, instead locating the sources of discontent not in society, community and state, but brain, cell and molecule. The remedicalization of psychiatry and the ascendance of a new biological psychiatry were intimately tied to the politics of neoliberalism, and psychiatry’s increased focus on brain and biology helped obfuscate the wider social determinants of mental health. The failure of neuroscience and genetics to revolutionize the treatment of mental illness, the emergence of social epidemiology, and the growing concern about the widening of inequality in our society mean the time is now ripe for psychiatry to re-engage with the social world.

A few days ago I was talking to some psychiatry residents about this upcoming symposium and they asked me, “what is social psychiatry?” This question will surprise no one but should astound everyone, especially if we were to replace “social” with “biological”. No medical student or resident would ever ask what biological psychiatry is, but social psychiatry’s decline has been so precipitous that psychiatrists of today are not familiar with psychiatry’s foray into social ills, social commentary, and the focus on the social roots of illness. Many of the classic studies in the field like Faris and Dunham’s study of Schizophrenia, the Midtown Manhattan Project, Hollingshead and Redlich’s work on social class and mental illness, Brown and Harris’ work on life events and illness have escaped a generation by. The critiques of psychiatry of the 60s from the likes of Goffman, Szasz, Laing, Foucault and so on have escaped a generation by. “Antipsychiatry” is more likely to be associated with Scientology today than any credible critiques of the profession.

For one definition of social psychiatry we can turn to the WHO’s 1959 technical report on the subject. This committee was chaired by Robert Felix who was the first Head of the newly formed National Institute for Mental Health. Felix said amongst other things: ““[Psychiatrists should be] involved in education, social work, industry, the churches, recreation, and the courts, so that mental health care would be fully integrated into the total social environment” The 1959 report notes “social psychiatry might eventually provide the means of creating a saner or perhaps a completely sane world”. His successor Stanley Yolles wrote that mental health professionals should “improve the lives of people by bettering their physical environment, their educational and cultural opportunities, and other social and environmental conditions. The conditions of poverty, since they constitute a breeding ground for mental disease, require the professional involvement of the psychiatry”. Such a different conception of psychiatry that we have today. You couldn’t imagine Tom Insel the outgoing NIMH Director saying such words…

If you look at the APA meetings of years gone by you can also see a sea-change. The topics were more sociopolitical and community oriented up until the 1970s. By 1980, the pendulum had swung with a significant focus on biological aspects of psychiatry, psychopharmacology and the new DSM. We moved from society, community and state, to brain, cell and molecule. The forces at work were many, and I do not want to pretend that social psychiatry was ever a predominant force in American Psychiatry because it wasn’t. Much of what was social was eclipsed by the psychodynamic and the two curiously melded together with the effect there was much more focus on the individual’s psyche in the social world, or a look at family or group dynamics and not the structure of society itself. At the same time there was a real enthusiasm for psychiatry, the community treatment of the mentally ill, and social justice oriented medical students would choose psychiatry right up until the 1970s. The data that we have on recruitment clearly shows that psychiatry is at least popular when it is at its most biological. The heyday of psychiatry was after the second world war and the intervening years when psychiatrists concerned themselves not only with psychoanalysis and the new psychopharmacological agents but also social justice: racism, crime, violence, gender, inequality, poverty, even nuclear disarmament. As such psychiatrists were beginning to become aware of how the sociopolitical affected the mental. By the 1970s a growing awareness of the sexual violence that was perpetrated against women, and criticism of the Vietnam war coalesced into the diagnosis of PTSD which entered the diagnostic nomenclature in 1980 as a damning indictment of war in Vietnam and the war at home. Of note, unlike war neurosis, shell shock and similar terms beforehand, PTSD was viewed as a normal response to situations outside the usual range of human experience. Given that it was known this wasn’t the case well before, it could only be seen as a sociopolitical definition and not simply the state of knowledge at the time.

So why the decline? Part of the problem was there was no true social psychiatry. Psychiatry had always had a role in managing subjectivity and regulating conformity rather than liberation, unlike say the radical tradition in French psychoanalysis. Social psychiatry occupied a space in what was a primarily psychodynamically oriented psychiatry, one that privileged the internal over the external, fantasy over social reality. By the time more analytically oriented psychiatrists accepted the significance of actual life events and trauma, psychiatry had already moved on. Part of the problem was that many of the aims were too lofty. While a psychodynamically model provided a frame for intellectual analysis of problems far beyond the realm of mental illness, pragmatic solutions were not forthcoming, and ultimately not the in the province of psychiatry. Psychiatrists could not provide racial harmony, address inequalities and poverty, let alone have to power to meaningfully advocate for nuclear disarmament. And most crushingly, the optimism of following the community mental health act and the passage of Medicare did not lead to the funds to support the vision or the anticipated universal healthcare coverage for the populace.

What I want to focus on however is how the decline of social psychiatry, and the ascendance of biological psychiatry was intimately tied to the politics of neoliberalism. By this I am talking about a series of policies influenced by laissez-faire economics that promotes deregulation of industries, privatization, financial austerity, and the wide scale application of market forces in every sphere of life. Whatever positives may be associated with such policies: driving innovation, supporting business, allowing wealth creation proponents point out, these policies fail to protect to vulnerable in our society and lead to job and financial insecurity, and widening inequality which we know affect physical and health outcomes. These policies created widespread misery, which drives desire, which in turn drives consumption. Social psychiatry was a political threat because it highlights how the social, political and economic landscape influences mental health. By focusing on brain and biology, on molecules and cells, we obfuscate the wider causes of mental distress, no longer the product of an insecure economic landscape or a toxic workplace, but twisted molecules and defective genes. Biological psychiatry says the problem isn’t poverty, inequality, or social exclusion – the problem is you. As we can see the research agenda was significantly influenced by the political landscape – there was a precipitous decline in psychosocial publications in the AJP in the early 1980s. The politics of neoliberalism is a project that transforms collective social responsibility into private individual one. In this way it is antithetical to social psychiatry.

The second phase of the neoliberal agenda has been – for good or for ill – the transformation into patients into consumers. This may have had the positive effects that psychiatrist Joanna Moncrieff notes including leading the greater patient/consumer involvement in care and greater rights, but it also has the effect of transforming sickness that often has deep social roots into a market place. With the announcement that Tom Insel will join Google to help develop new technologies for mental illness the transformation is complete. Mental illness is now not only completely uncoupled from the social environment, it is also wedded to marketized one where companies vie to create and sell products – with little regulation of course – to those experiencing mental distress.

This has wider implications. By focusing narrowly on the individual and relocated the problem within the self essentially sees the psychiatrist managing subjectivity, in the role of adjusting individuals to situations we should not perhaps not adjust to, using pharmacotherapy. People come to see themselves as somehow fundamentally biologically defected. As sociologist Nikolas Rose noted, we have come to recode our mood in neurochemical selves. Psychiatry profited handsomely from the remedicalization of the profession. The DSM generated significant revenues for the APA, and a wider range of problems came to fall under the purview of psychiatry expanding the borders of mental illness. In turn, an unprecedented level of the population uses psychotropic agents. In recent years, accusations of an unholy alliance between the pharmaceutical companies and psychiatry, and the mass proliferation of psychiatric diagnoses, as well as the continual reshaping on the boundaries between mental health and illness have brought the profession into disrepute. The evidence base for many psychiatric interventions has been called into question. The validity of psychiatric diagnoses has also been criticized even from those within the profession. The increasing focus on the biomedical at the expense of the psychosocial has led some commentators such as Glen Gabbard and Leon Eisenberg to note that many younger psychiatrists do not appear to know how to even listen to their patients:

"The success of neuroscience has exacted costs.The very elegance of research in neuroscience has led psychiatry to focus so exclusively on the brain as an organ that the experience of the patient as a person has receded below the horizon of our vision. We had for so long been pilloried by our medical and surgical colleagues as witchdoctors and wooly minded thinkers that many of us now seek professional respectability by adhering to a reductionistic model of mental disorder. We have traded the one-sidedness of the brainless psychiatry of the first half of the 20th century for a mindless psychiatry of the second half."

Psychiatry hasn’t just become mindless it has also become aimless and placeless. There is no context to the genes and neural circuitry that have been so privileged in the emerging discourse for our psychic woes. If as is often claimed psychiatry is in crisis, then we are presented with a wonderful opportunity. We have the opportunity to learn from these mistakes. Most psychiatrists regard themselves as having a biopsychosocial orientation. For too long, the “social” has been an afterthought, if considered at all. And yet our brains do not exist in a vacuum. They operate within complex systems and interpersonal networks.

This is certainly an "Ivory Tower" speech (though certainly thoughtful). Sociocultural issues are present in ALL areas of clinical medicine, not just psychiatry- and they definitely have a huge impact on disease manifestation, recovery, public health, etc. The only difference is we don't have consistent pathophysiology and biomarkers, so the "social" part has a bigger signal. Otherwise, psychiatry is no different than any other branch of medicine. We have chronic, relapsing illnesses with that contribute to an enormous public health burden.

As stated above, most doctors hate doing social work, and I try to avoid it like the plague- I recognize the issues and then turf it to the people who can better handle it (MSWs, midlevels, etc). It's not why I went to medical school. I picked psychiatry because the of the amazing and fascinating array of pathology and to experience firsthand the breakthroughs in neuroscience that will happen in my lifetime. I am really glad more and more MDPhDs are going into psychiatry (not sure of the data, but from an observational perspective it looks that way), and I would 100% percent take one MSTP over 100 med students deficient in/afraid of science
 
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Biological psychiatry says the problem isn’t poverty, inequality, or social exclusion – the problem is you.

I feel like this is such a false dichotomy. We might be beating a dead horse here though with this discussion. Neural circuits are not etched in stone. They are plastic and malleable to environmental insults and trauma. There's a whole field about studying the influence of epignetics/stress on the brain.

I also agree with Harry. There's no difference between psychiatry and other branches of medicine regarding the subjective nature of illness and the complaint or the importance of social structure in treatment and prevention. Beyond observation and the MSA, we just haven't gotten to use much science to try and resolve the complaint, unlike other fields.
 
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This is certainly an "Ivory Tower" speech (though certainly thoughtful). Sociocultural issues are present in ALL areas of clinical medicine, not just psychiatry- and they definitely have a huge impact on disease manifestation, recovery, public health, etc.
the point is other fields have very much embraced the social sciences whereas psychiatry has turned its back on it. there is more research on the social influences on cardiovascular disease and cancer than there is on mental illness
 
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I think it's important that ALL doctors have as part of what they do being able to assess social issues impacting health and care, and take steps to address it, but ideally addressing it is being able to communicate to a midlevel what is needed

ie - hey SW, we need counseling for this patient
hey dietician, this DM'er needs to learn carb counting, they're on a limited budget keep that in mind
etc
 
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Psh you couldn't pay me $1M to do path. No offense to pathologists but not doing that all day, I need human interaction too.

You can make a ton in psych. My psych ER attending yesterday showed me a photo of his annual income statement: $600,000. Also does suboxone and some outpatient on the side. Works ~50hrs per week... Business in medicine will take you there, if you're into that.
 
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Psh you couldn't pay me $1M to do path. No offense to pathologists but not doing that all day, I need human interaction too.

You can make a ton in psych. My psych ER attending yesterday showed me a photo of his annual income statement: $600,000. Also does suboxone and some outpatient on the side. Works ~50hrs per week... Business in medicine will take you there, if you're into that.

I'm a bit concerned that your attending keeps photos of his annual income statement to show medical students
 
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I'm a bit concerned that your attending keeps photos of his annual income statement to show medical students

Lool yes it was quite odd, and I definitely did not ask to see it. Nevertheless, you can make more than you think with psych. I consider myself rather business oriented so I plan to dabble into a few different things as well. Not all about the money either, I genuinely enjoy the process of setting up and running my own shop.
 
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I also appreciate the input by splik. Sorry if I'm behind on the discussion or am already beating a dead horse but I just wanted to put in my own quick response. I certainly do have my greatest sympathies for various social misfortunes, such as the homeless schizophrenic who had multiple understandable barriers to getting the psychiatric care they needed. However, there's a point where I wish sometimes patients would take up some ownership as well. It's more, a bit upsetting whenever someone has a fight with their significant other, they run to a psychiatric hospital seeking admission (assuming there is no clear Axis I or Axis II disorder going on that is not being attended to sufficiently). I find that to be a massive waste of resources and to be enabling in a lot of cases. I know we don't use the Axis system anymore, but it's still handy to use to simplify some discussions a bit. Or I had another case of someone who was admitted with MDD and SI. I treated him until his symptoms were greatly improved but he didn't want to be discharged. He wanted me to keep adjusting his meds and give more ECT because he still felt "a little down" that he still had his bankruptcy to work on. Well...any normal person is going to feel down about something like that. It's an appropriate feeling and you can't expect providers to divorce appropriate responses to major stressors. Since the providers rotate from inpatient and consults, he eventually found a psychiatrist willing to extend to his hospitalization and he got so much ECT he suffered notable cognitive side effects. More ECT didn't help, neither did further med adjustments. Ultimately, the unit went back to my original plan which was to discharge him to an outpatient provider and to an IOP. Which he did much better with as opposed to continuing hospitalization :).
 
Lool yes it was quite odd, and I definitely did not ask to see it. Nevertheless, you can make more than you think with psych. I consider myself rather business oriented so I plan to dabble into a few different things as well. Not all about the money either, I genuinely enjoy the process of setting up and running my own shop.

So you're saying your attending routinely carries around a picture of his "income statement" which he then shows unsuspecting medical students that never ask for this information?

Sounds legit.
 
I'm a bit concerned that your attending keeps photos of his annual income statement to show medical students
Sounds like a narcissist. Give him some praise if you want a good rotation review.
 
So you're saying your attending routinely carries around a picture of his "income statement" which he then shows unsuspecting medical students that never ask for this information?

Sounds legit.

Sounds like bull----
 
Sounds like bull----

Nay. It's a known thing with this guy and the numbers are accurate. Very narcissist and weird that he needs the approval from medical students but hey, to each his own.
 
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