Psychodynamic Training in Residency

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DynamicDidactic

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Looking over some residency curricula, I realized that psychiatry residents are likely to be exposed to training in psychodynamic therapy. Is this accurate?

If yes, does the board think this is useful training nowadays? My intention isn't to argue over the merits (and definitely not efficacy) of psychodynamic therapy. Taking in the bigger picture, psychodynamic training is slowly leaving psychology training. Of course, plenty of people still are trained and practice but my anecdotal experience indicates these are mostly older generation practitioners and training programs that are resistant to change. An old school psychoanalyst in Chicago told me that most of the new psychodynamic therapists are coming from masters-level practitioners and very few from MDs or PhDs.

I know psychoanalytic (and somewhat psychodynamic) therapy started in psychiatry but is it still useful despite the poor empirical support, increase in allied health professions that provide "talk" therapy, and the current managed care atmosphere?

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This has been discussed before and you'll probably find it on the forum if you dig a little.

But the importance is distinguishing "psychodynamic" for "psychoanalytic." You can have hours of mind-numbing conversation about this distinction (and believe me, people have on this very site).

I don't know any program that does actual psychoanalysis. But I don't know of any programs that are known for being particularly strong in psychotherapy that doesn't give a good foundation in psychodynamic psychotherapy. At my place, it was used as a foundation on which you could build. Psychodynamic training is very helpful for formulations and some folks use it very directly in therapy. Folks who were really into it got further training at a psychoanalytic institute.

When you study a second language, you tend to have improved testing in your primary language. It's like that with therapy. The more exposure you have to different ways of looking at a problem, the better your approach and treatment will be, regardless of which modality you use to treat it.

CPT is one of my favorite therapy modalities out there. But a therapist who learned nothing but CPT would be a pretty crappy therapist, no matter how many years they studied or practiced it. You get better as a therapist as you add different skillets. And you'll find that very few therapists actually are using a single modality throughout a case. Not good therapists, anyway.
 
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psychodynamic training has been expunged from academic psychology departments (i.e. PhDs), it is thriving in PsyD programs and there is no evidence of decline. Yes it's true that the social workers are taking over psychoanalysis if that's what you mean, but they often have to have several years of experience as the official standard is still a doctoral level education.

Historically it has been psychiatrists and not psychologists who have been psychodynamically trained because up until the 1980s you had to have an MD to do training at a psychoanalytic institute until the psychologists sued on antitrust grounds (see Welch v American Psychoanalytic Association). Historically psychologists weren't allowed to do psychotherapy at all and were relegated to testing. As such even though CBT was largely developed by a psychiatrist, this came to be the primary model for many psychologists

Pretty much all of the top ranked psychiatry residencies provide training in psychodynamic psychotherapy. However it's not what it used to be. There is much more time now devoted to CBT and learning other psychotherapeutic modalities, and obviously drug therapy is much more important than it was 40 or 50 years ago so the amount of time devoted to psychodynamic training (which is fairly labor intensive) continues to dwindle. The decline in psychodynamic training in recent years has led many institutes to offer 1-year fellowships and 2-year certificate programs in psychoanalytic psychotherapy for psychiatric residents and young psychiatrists.

The CBT vs psychodynamic argument comes and goes. All therapies have much in common and that is probably where most of the change occurs. There was a recent article in the guardian about the newly ignited therapy wars challenging the therapeutic hegemony of CBT. There is evidence supporting psychodynamic treatments: here, here, here, here, and here.

I also don't think that these therapies are stuck in the murky Freudian past but instead the field is engaged in attachment based approaches, and grounded itself in developmental neuroscience and informed by understanding of social cognition and affect regulation. Mentalization based approaches, and recognizing the importance of mutative interpretations through the transference affect, as well as the importance of intersubjectivity, and "implicit relational knowing".

Since we know that CBT doesn't work in the way it was supposed to, and seems to affect metacognition, and many of the "third wave" approaches have little to do with CBT but are instead informed by like buddism (DBT and MBCT), relational frame theory (ACT), and good old fashioned transference and therapeutic relationship (FAP). The British psychologist Jay Watts wrote a fantastic article on why CBT doesn't exist.

You are right though, in most setting psychiatrists are not being paid to sit around stroking beards and engaging in mental masturbation. (Almost) no one is going to pay a psychiatrist to do psychotherapy (Regardless of modality) because it is much cheaper to have someone with less training do it. However there are still many psychiatrists who do choose (for better or worse) to have psychotherapy based private practices and the primary kind of therapy these psychiatrists will likely be doing is psychodynamic psychotherapy. Most social workers or masters levels counselors are not doing psychodynamic work. And while it is true, particularly in new york, that these psychiatrists have essentially abandoned the mentally ill for the wealthy worried well, there are many psychodynamic psychiatrists who see patients with serious mood and anxiety disorders that have no responded to other psychotherapies and medications, and increasingly it has become "a treatment of last resort". And since the response rate in the kind of population is already low, sometimes you can see amazing changes. And one might argue that these more treatment refractory cases may benefit from seeing a psychiatrist even if the focus of treatment is psychotherapy.

When conventional medicine fails, a call the the witch doctor may be all that is left.

I am not some beardy weirdy analyst - it doesn't interest me. But it's no more of a cult than is DBT (in fact I think DBT is even more of a cult - these EBP proselytizers are more evangelical than the analysts)
 
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Boy do I love splik's well informed highly opinionated and impassioned posts.
 
psychodynamic training has been expunged from academic psychology departments (i.e. PhDs), it is thriving in PsyD programs and there is no evidence of decline. Yes it's true that the social workers are taking over psychoanalysis if that's what you mean, but they often have to have several years of experience as the official standard is still a doctoral level education.

Historically it has been psychiatrists and not psychologists who have been psychodynamically trained because up until the 1980s you had to have an MD to do training at a psychoanalytic institute until the psychologists sued on antitrust grounds (see Welch v American Psychoanalytic Association). Historically psychologists weren't allowed to do psychotherapy at all and were relegated to testing. As such even though CBT was largely developed by a psychiatrist, this came to be the primary model for many psychologists

Pretty much all of the top ranked psychiatry residencies provide training in psychodynamic psychotherapy. However it's not what it used to be. There is much more time now devoted to CBT and learning other psychotherapeutic modalities, and obviously drug therapy is much more important than it was 40 or 50 years ago so the amount of time devoted to psychodynamic training (which is fairly labor intensive) continues to dwindle. The decline in psychodynamic training in recent years has led many institutes to offer 1-year fellowships and 2-year certificate programs in psychoanalytic psychotherapy for psychiatric residents and young psychiatrists.

The CBT vs psychodynamic argument comes and goes. All therapies have much in common and that is probably where most of the change occurs. There was a recent article in the guardian about the newly ignited therapy wars challenging the therapeutic hegemony of CBT. There is evidence supporting psychodynamic treatments: here, here, here, here, and here.

I also don't think that these therapies are stuck in the murky Freudian past but instead the field is engaged in attachment based approaches, and grounded itself in developmental neuroscience and informed by understanding of social cognition and affect regulation. Mentalization based approaches, and recognizing the importance of mutative interpretations through the transference affect, as well as the importance of intersubjectivity, and "implicit relational knowing".

Since we know that CBT doesn't work in the way it was supposed to, and seems to affect metacognition, and many of the "third wave" approaches have little to do with CBT but are instead informed by like buddism (DBT and MBCT), relational frame theory (ACT), and good old fashioned transference and therapeutic relationship (FAP). The British psychologist Jay Watts wrote a fantastic article on why CBT doesn't exist.

You are right though, in most setting psychiatrists are not being paid to sit around stroking beards and engaging in mental masturbation. (Almost) no one is going to pay a psychiatrist to do psychotherapy (Regardless of modality) because it is much cheaper to have someone with less training do it. However there are still many psychiatrists who do choose (for better or worse) to have psychotherapy based private practices and the primary kind of therapy these psychiatrists will likely be doing is psychodynamic psychotherapy. Most social workers or masters levels counselors are not doing psychodynamic work. And while it is true, particularly in new york, that these psychiatrists have essentially abandoned the mentally ill for the wealthy worried well, there are many psychodynamic psychiatrists who see patients with serious mood and anxiety disorders that have no responded to other psychotherapies and medications, and increasingly it has become "a treatment of last resort". And since the response rate in the kind of population is already low, sometimes you can see amazing changes. And one might argue that these more treatment refractory cases may benefit from seeing a psychiatrist even if the focus of treatment is psychotherapy.

When conventional medicine fails, a call the the witch doctor may be all that is left.

I am not some beardy weirdy analyst - it doesn't interest me. But it's no more of a cult than is DBT (in fact I think DBT is even more of a cult - these EBP proselytizers are more evangelical than the analysts)

Thanks. That was a good read.

I like the "CBT doesn't exist" article a lot.

I'm currently a personality disorder clinic rotation run by psychologists and am seeing a lot of the interplay of style and politics of therapy brands vying for the stage. That article gave me a lot of insight into what I've been seeing.
 
psychodynamic training has been expunged from academic psychology departments (i.e. PhDs), it is thriving in PsyD programs and there is no evidence of decline.

I really don't think that's the case. There are bastions of dynamic thought and practice, and yes most happen to be psyd programs (GW, Wright Institute), but academic psychology has largely moved away from this training.
 
so you agree with me then? that is what i said

I don't agree its thiving in psyd programs, no. I believe there are a few select psyd programs around the country (out of 50 or so) where it is still popular.
 
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