psychosomatic fellowship

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markglt

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I've always had an interest in C&L psychiatry...however
Is there a finiancial benefit to doing a fellowship and/or not needed...
i was told there's no money in it, and it is a waste of time, because you can do it as a general psychiatrist.
Any truth to this?
Is C/L competitive?
thanks

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Billing codes pay equivalent regardless of PSM certification . If anything, you lose money in the hospital in the time it takes you to walk to see your next patient. But regardless of your practice setting, employers may pay you several thousand per year more for the extra certification.

As far as competitiveness, maybe 50% of the fellowships will fill.

Many non-academic hospitals opt out of psych departments and simply hire social workers, psych nps, or contract general psychiatrists in the community. Most of the CL spots I have seen are academic appointments.
 
Virtually every big hospital, "academic" or not, sees a need to employ C-L psychiatrists since they are a cost-effective way to reduce costs and complications (excessive length of stay; treatment refusals; capacity conflicts).

There are plenty of jobs available; take a look--lots of places are hiring.

Just doing consults without that support is generally not cost effective for the psychiatrist.

Most places prefer to hire board certified specialists; there's a body of knowledge that needs to be learned that is CL specific, and if the program includes a fellowship, they'll need most/all of their teachers to be board certified in the specialty.

I don't know if there are data comparing incomes from within different psychiatric subspecialties, but I don't have reason to believe that CL psychiatrists make less than the average.

If you are interested in research, there is a lot of low-hanging fruit in CL; MANY, MANY medical conditions get hardly any psychiatric attention.

If you are trying to build a private practice, there is no better experience than working with internists and surgeons, who tend to be desperately searching for psychiatrists to relieve them of their burdensome patients (especially if the psychiatrist is competent, available, and normal-appearing).
 
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I've always had an interest in C&L psychiatry...however
Is there a finiancial benefit to doing a fellowship and/or not needed...
i was told there's no money in it, and it is a waste of time, because you can do it as a general psychiatrist.
Any truth to this?
Is C/L competitive?
thanks

There is no benefit to doing so and if you want a career in academic C/L I would suggest trying to find a junior faculty position just out of residency with some outstanding C/L people where part of your clinical responsibilities will be in C/L......
 
If you are trying to build a private practice, there is no better experience than working with internists and surgeons, who tend to be desperately searching for psychiatrists to relieve them of their burdensome patients (especially if the psychiatrist is competent, available, and normal-appearing).

and especially if the patient's insurance doesn't cover psych care very well.
 
yeah,If you are interested in research, there is a lot of low-hanging fruit in CL; MANY, MANY medical conditions get hardly any psychiatric attention
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gonna bump an older thread here, since I've been contemplating my life here...

I think what the above poster is referring to when speaking about "making less money" is that first year attending salary - fellowship salary = $100k that would go a long way for a 31 year old staring a family.

I agree with the idea in theory of joining as a junior faculty and letting more senior CL people serve as mentors... especially since that's how many of MY mentors did it back in the day, but I get a strong feeling that the major academic departments are going to frown on non-BC/BE consultants as time goes on. My own department just lost its full-time CL guy, so staying where I am isn't really an option, and I have a suspicion that the question of "why aren't you just doing a fellowship?" could creep up if I try to latch onto another large academic center.
 
gonna bump an older thread here, since I've been contemplating my life here...

I think what the above poster is referring to when speaking about "making less money" is that first year attending salary - fellowship salary = $100k that would go a long way for a 31 year old staring a family.

I agree with the idea in theory of joining as a junior faculty and letting more senior CL people serve as mentors... especially since that's how many of MY mentors did it back in the day, but I get a strong feeling that the major academic departments are going to frown on non-BC/BE consultants as time goes on. My own department just lost its full-time CL guy, so staying where I am isn't really an option, and I have a suspicion that the question of "why aren't you just doing a fellowship?" could creep up if I try to latch onto another large academic center.

the problem in this thinking is that virtually NOBODY has done a psychosomatic fellowship. The idea that depts are going to go from recruiting people who almost exclusively have not done fellowships to people who almost exclusively have done fellowships is absurd....especially when a lot of these people(the few out there) doing psychosomatic med fellowships aren't exactly elite people.
 
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I agree with the idea in theory of joining as a junior faculty and letting more senior CL people serve as mentors....


You don't need a C/L mentor. Doing a consult isn't that difficult. Having some informal mentoring from excellent, experienced psychiatrists is always a good idea. However, you can get an academic job and do some C/L without needing a C/L doc to show you the ropes.
 
who tend to be desperately searching for psychiatrists to relieve them of their burdensome patients (especially if the psychiatrist is competent, available, and normal-appearing).

A rarity in our field.
 
A rarity in our field.

I thought I remember reading you were thinking about doing a 2nd residency, did psych not really turn out how you expected or did you more just realize there was something else you were really interested in?
 
If you want a CL job at an academic institution, you will almost certainly need to do a psychosomatic fellowship. If you are really good and they're really desperate, you might be able to apprentice into a position, but you will then have a hard time changing jobs or developing yourself within the national organization, the APM.

It is true that the old guys didn't do a fellowship, and they were grandfathered into subspecialization, but they still had to take a test (which they'll have to take again next year), but the grandfather thing ended a decade ago. The idea that any general psychiatrist can do a consult is true, if by "consult" you mean "mediocre consult." If you want to be good at something, you need to work at it. It's possible that you can do it on your own, but most people don't develop especially good habits on their own--and you'll be staying on your own since no one will then hire you.

As for money, it's a money loser to be a free-lance consultant. It might bring you more outpatient referrals, but it's inefficient to go to a hospital on the off chance that you'll get a medicare consult or two for the afternoon. If you get an academic/service job to do consults, the pay is more-or-less equivalent to what everyone else in institutional psychiatry makes.
 
Thanks for the insight - found it to be quite helpful.
 
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If you want a CL job at an academic institution, you will almost certainly need to do a psychosomatic fellowship. .

The numbers for this just don't work, especially since many/most people(or well the few people that are doing them) graduating from CL programs now arent doing full time academic CL.....
 
The idea that any general psychiatrist can do a consult is true, if by "consult" you mean "mediocre consult." .

What's so unique about a psychiatry consult that it requires a year of fellowship to be good at? Internists, surgeons, neurologists, etc don't do fellowships to learn how to do consults. Something is wrong with psychiatry residency training if graduates aren't capable of perforing a decent consult.
 
What's so unique about a psychiatry consult that it requires a year of fellowship to be good at? Internists, surgeons, neurologists, etc don't do fellowships to learn how to do consults. Something is wrong with psychiatry residency training if graduates aren't capable of perforing a decent consult.

agreed....it's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

The explanation you'll get is that there is something unique about focusing on the relationship between psychiatric exacerbations in the context of medical illness. Or something riduclous like that.

Anyone who is not fully trained/competent to do consults after their residency got very poor training. Yes, one can always 'get more training in something', but to me a 1 year consults fellowship is no different than something like a 1 year 'adult inpatient' fellowship,or a 1 year 'outpt mood disorders' fellowship.....

I think that many psychiatrists see their medicine colleagues doing 'real' fellowships where people actually pick up new skills where the fellowship is required to practice competently in that area....and therefore they want to model that and end up creating fellowships like c-l.....
 
Psychosomatic medicine is really psychiatry's obsessive compulsive sister who hates working outside of the hospital. Shhhhhh.
 
I have two friends who have done C/L fellowships at MGH, and I'll just say that until you've been around someone who has done this kind of training, you really don't understand just how much they know that you never learned. One of the old mods was a C/L trained at MGH, and his knowledge base was pretty impressive. Folks I've known that have trained at Yale and GW (which is one of the best C/L programs, surprisingly)have had similar experiences.

It may be that there are just a few places where doing a C/L fellowship has real value. And maybe it only makes sense for academic jobs at the top 10 or 15 academic medical centers where the departments can be more choosy about whom they hire. But blanket statements that the C/L fellowship has no value doesn't match my experiences, as specific as they may be. They might not be valuable for many people's career goals.

Cleareyedguy is at one of the top departments in the country, so his opinions are probably skewed as well.
 
I have two friends who have done C/L fellowships at MGH, and I'll just say that until you've been around someone who has done this kind of training, you really don't understand just how much they know that you never learned. One of the old mods was a C/L trained at MGH, and his knowledge base was pretty impressive. Folks I've known that have trained at Yale and GW (which is one of the best C/L programs, surprisingly)have had similar experiences.

It may be that there are just a few places where doing a C/L fellowship has real value. And maybe it only makes sense for academic jobs at the top 10 or 15 academic medical centers where the departments can be more choosy about whom they hire. But blanket statements that the C/L fellowship has no value doesn't match my experiences, as specific as they may be. They might not be valuable for many people's career goals.

Cleareyedguy is at one of the top departments in the country, so his opinions are probably skewed as well.

the best consult psychiatrists in terms of patient care and working with the medsurg team are going to be people dual boarded in psychiatry and medicine. Just like a psych residency gives us a feel for what psychiatric illness is, going through an internal medicine residency gives them a feel for what real medical illness is......

And you are right that top academic medical centers can be more choosy about whom they hire. But that doesn't neccessarily translate into assuming they will hire only psychiatrists who have done a C-L fellowship. C-L fellowships are obviously so umcompetitive to the point that many(most?) aren't filling and I'm sure some of these that aren't filling(and would be glad to accept marginal candidates) are at name medical centers....a 1 year fellowship(heck a 20 year fellowship) isn't going to magically convert a marginal person into a good psychiatrist.
 
I don't have any problem with a small number of psychiatrists doing additional training in C/L/psychosomatics, as well as some academics devoting their careers to doing research in this area.

But it is overkill to have psychosomatics as an ACGME accredited fellowship. I think it makes more sense to have a few unofficial fellowships in the area (similar to the psych neuorimaging fellowships that I occasionally see advertised) with a heavy research component to prepare a few psychiatrists for academia in that area.
 
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I don't have any problem with a small number of psychiatrists doing additional training in C/L/psychosomatics, as well as some academics devoting their careers to doing research in this area.

But it is overkill to have psychosomatics as an ACGME accredited fellowship. .

yep...that is my issue with at. I never have a problem with people who want to pursue extra knowledge in some way going after it.

But to make it an 'official' ACGME accredited fellowship....that just screams "look at me please take me seriously"......it's not going to work.
 
I guess people can do med + psych residencies, but I haven't met anyone who really took advantage of the combination beyond being "informed" by the other specialization. No one does general medicine in the morning and psychotherapy in the afternoon. They do one or the other. Ie, I think that it's a waste of time for someone to anticipate doing those 2 residencies. If you've done one and then decide to shift, that's a different story.

The fact that CL fellowships (which greatly expanded in number after the ACGME decision) don't all fill does NOT mean that CL faculty jobs don't look for the fellowship. CL faculty jobs have also expanded in the past decade, so maybe there's flexibility nationwide, but from talking to our fellows, it doesn't feel "wide open" in regards to what sorts of jobs are available.

It may seem like "overkill" or that psychosomatics is "screaming" to get attention, but the ACGME decision is done, and it's been done since before current fourth-year residents took the MCAT.
 
I guess people can do med + psych residencies, but I haven't met anyone who really took advantage of the combination beyond being "informed" by the other specialization. No one does general medicine in the morning and psychotherapy in the afternoon. They do one or the other. Ie, I think that it's a waste of time for someone to anticipate doing those 2 residencies. If you've done one and then decide to shift, that's a different story.

of course nobody does general medicine in the morning and therapy in the afternoon, but if one wanted to be the best psychiatry consult doc possible to medicine and surgery floors for medically complicated patients where the medical and psychiatric illnesses do have potentially significant contributions to each other and the overally picture is unclear....then someone who is both an internist and psychiatrist would obviously be the gold standard for that role.
 
of course nobody does general medicine in the morning and therapy in the afternoon, but if one wanted to be the best psychiatry consult doc possible to medicine and surgery floors for medically complicated patients where the medical and psychiatric illnesses do have potentially significant contributions to each other and the overally picture is unclear....then someone who is both an internist and psychiatrist would obviously be the gold standard for that role.

Doing residencies in two completely different fields might be a standard of a sort, but it still wouldn't inevitably provide education and experience in how to do an effective consult. If you really want a gold standard, do fellowships in child (for peds consults), forensics (for capacity), research, and substance abuse, and then do psychoanalytic training. That's a gold standard--and you could probably skip the geri fellowship since you'd be nearing retirement and could probably extrapolate much of geriatrics from your personal experience.
 
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Doing residencies in two completely different fields might be a standard of a sort, but it still wouldn't inevitably provide education and experience in how to do an effective consult. If you really want a gold standard, do fellowships in child (for peds consults), forensics (for capacity), research, and substance abuse, and then do psychoanalytic training. That's a gold standard--and you could probably skip the geri fellowship since you'd be nearing retirement and could probably extrapolate much of geriatrics from your personal experience.

it would really depend on the type of consult....I was thinking of consults where medical illness and psychiatric illness are more intertwined....for example an SLE patient on steroids who also has a history of bipolar d/o. In that case no number of 1 year psychiatric fellowships tacked on back to back would come close to matching the usefulness of a psychiatrist who is also bc'd in internal medicine.

As for peds psych consults.....child psychiatrists are more than capable to do those. Much more capable than an general adult psychiatrist who has done a 1 year C-L fellowship(and is thus still a general adult psychiatrist).....
 
it would really depend on the type of consult....I was thinking of consults where medical illness and psychiatric illness are more intertwined....for example an SLE patient on steroids who also has a history of bipolar d/o. In that case no number of 1 year psychiatric fellowships tacked on back to back would come close to matching the usefulness of a psychiatrist who is also bc'd in internal medicine.

As for peds psych consults.....child psychiatrists are more than capable to do those. Much more capable than an general adult psychiatrist who has done a 1 year C-L fellowship(and is thus still a general adult psychiatrist).....

You seem confident about issues that range from hiring practices throughout the country to the benefits (or not) of fellowships that you haven't done in subspecialties you haven't attempted. Are these educated observations or have you talked to people about these perspectives?
 
You seem confident about issues that range from hiring practices throughout the country to the benefits (or not) of fellowships that you haven't done in subspecialties you haven't attempted. Are these educated observations or have you talked to people about these perspectives?

Im not so much commenting on hiring practices(a ton of C-L positions in academia involve C-L coverage and other responsibilities which muddles the picture) as much as who I think is best trained to see patients with medical illness and psychiatric illness coexisting. Obviously with a lot of C-L work you have a central question that involves determining how much of what we see is secondary to a medical issue and how much is secondary to a psychiatric issue. Having expertise in both psychiatry and medicine gives one an obvious edge here. As a psychiatrist I'm pretty sure I know more about psychiatric presentations than internists, and I'm pretty sure internists know more about their field than psychiatrists.

C-L services, as others have pointed out, are mainly a function of academic medical centers and the missions they have to train residents and engage students in the process. Very large private hospitals without residency programs or medical schools attached are far less likely to have full time C-L services/positions than similarly sized academic centers. I think fonzie(or another poster?) pointed out that even very large private hospitals without GME funding are unlikely to fork out the dough for salaried psychiatrists.....how many of your fellows doing mostly C-L next year are taking such positions vs taking junior academic positions? And there is nothing wrong with that I suppose since I learned a lot on C-L and I think C-L services at large academic medical centers do add to the training environment.....but I view C-L as an academic area of psychiatry useful for training and educational purposes(so it makes sense that it is subsidized in the end with CMS/GME money) and less as a true distinct field of psychiatry....as opposed to other areas that obviously do exist at high levels outside of academic centers.
 
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We have three C/L faculty who are double boarded in medicine/Psych (none did combined programs) and three who have completed the fellowship. One of them is the same person (i.e. boarded in medicine and did a c/l fellowship). They're all very good, but they have very different skill sets, and if my grandmother were in the hospital, I would prefer one of the fellowship trained docs to do their consult. The three fellowship docs represent 3 of the last 4 hires over the past several years.
 
I guess people can do med + psych residencies, but I haven't met anyone who really took advantage of the combination beyond being "informed" by the other specialization.

Med/psych is 5 years, only 1 year more than psych alone; it was a reasonable choice for me in 1997; it would be less wise for someone to choose this option today.

Most years there are well under 20 graduates of these programs and it does remain a reasonable option for those interested in a career in academia, especially for those persons interested in working at an academic medical center on a med/psych ward.

I am definitely not in favor of expanding the # of med/psych residency slots.

For me personally, med/psych was a good choice. I liked psychiatry but was not about to leave behind my identity as a "real physician" (that was one of several reasons I chose the combo; that's not my current thinking)

There are several excellent med/psych physicians out there who perform both specialties approximately equally, but they are all in academia.
 
We have three C/L faculty who are double boarded in medicine/Psych (none did combined programs) and three who have completed the fellowship. One of them is the same person (i.e. boarded in medicine and did a c/l fellowship). They're all very good, but they have very different skill sets, and if my grandmother were in the hospital, I would prefer one of the fellowship trained docs to do their consult. The three fellowship docs represent 3 of the last 4 hires over the past several years.

If my mother was in the hospital, I would like her attending to be someone board-certified in internal medicine, pulmonary, and cardiology- geriatrics fellowship would be a plus. I also want them to take medicare.:laugh:
 
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We have three C/L faculty who are double boarded in medicine/Psych (none did combined programs) and three who have completed the fellowship. One of them is the same person (i.e. boarded in medicine and did a c/l fellowship). They're all very good, but they have very different skill sets, and if my grandmother were in the hospital, I would prefer one of the fellowship trained docs to do their consult. The three fellowship docs represent 3 of the last 4 hires over the past several years.

if my grandmother were in the hospital and a psych consult was ordered, what the question was and what she was in the hospital for would be the determinant of who I would want to do the consult.

If she was in the hospital for a broken hip and was endorsing SI, I would just want the best psychiatrist to come do the consult. That may be one of the dual guys, one of the fellowship guys, or none of the above.

If she was in the hospital for MI and her hospital stay was being extended because she lingering chest pain but the workup wasn't complete yet and cards was on board and there were issues of anxiety now related to when she suspected chest pain, I would much prefer the internist/psychiatrist to be doing the consult. And Im sure the cardiology team would prefer they be doing it as well.
 
if my grandmother were in the hospital and a psych consult was ordered, what the question was and what she was in the hospital for would be the determinant of who I would want to do the consult.

I'm impressed that you personally know the faculty at my hospital well enough to speculate as to which of the consult docs on our service you would want to do the consult on your grandmother.
 
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I'm impressed that you personally know the faculty at my hospital well enough to speculate as to which of the consult docs on our service you would want to do the consult on your grandmother.

Incidentally, I actually do know one of your consult attendings. She didn't do a fellowship, but she was very good when she was a resident and I was an M3 on the inpatient service. Her husband was one of my attendings as well in outpt clinic.

you knew I was speaking in general terms and not in reference to your specific faculty who I do not know anything about. My point was that in a problem where there are questions of significant overlap between medicine and psychiatry, I would prefer an internist and psychiatrist to evaluate that situation rather than just a psychiatrist. And yes the people you are referring to are good clinical educators who care about teaching.
 
you knew I was speaking in general terms and not in reference to your specific faculty who I do not know anything about.

I know, I was just teasing! I've been trying to use fewer emoticons at the behest of one of my friends who hates them.

I guess my point is just that it's hard to make such absolute generalizations, and there are multiple points of view about this. You used to say that doing a fellowship would even be HARMFUL to someone's career because they'd be better off as an attending, and while I could imagine that could be true in many instances, it would be untrue in a lot of instances too, and sometimes people would be much better off doing the fellowship. We've been lucky in that our fellowship trained consult docs have just been really incredible, so I'm convinced they have some value.
 
Going to bump an old thread instead of starting a new one for everybody out there interested in C/L work (+/- a fellowship) since there's good info here.

Thanks
 
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there is no money in C/L psychiatry. often the hospital eats the cost as you're not generating (enough) revenue and hospitals have consultation-liaison services because the rest of the medical staff don't want to deal with psychological issues, or because they see some cost-effectiveness through decreasing length of stay, readmissions, high utilization of services etc etc. You would make about the same as you would at an academic hospital or private hospital doing inpatient or outpatient work, possibly less. C/L is very popular given that it is not appointment driven and you dont have any patients of your own so its not hard to find people to fill jobs at decent places. the less desirable the location the more money you will make. you're not gonna make 240-250k doing consults on the coasts (130-180 would be more likely starting depending on type of hospital etc).

it's also not common to find full-time C/L gigs so few people are able to do consults full time without fleshing things out with research, teaching, adminstration, doing outpatient/inpatient/PP etc.

im assuming you're talking about inpatient c/l here. outpatient C/L is a growth area at the moment but is basically like outpatient practice except the patient has more medical problems and you get to send them back to the referring physician.
 
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Thanks for the quick reply, I did mean inpt c/l, thanks for clarifying.

Also, is there anywhere I can read more about outpatient c/l? I've never heard of it before, don't totally get how it works.
 
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that 130-180k was for academic jobs on the coasts. you could make more if you were in the midwest or somewhere else. this has nothing to do whether you're doing C/L or not, they pay is gonna be about the same and again, the vast majority of people are NOT doing full-time inpatient C/L even at academic medical centers - they are doing a bit of inpatient or outpatient etc as well. at smaller hospitals there just isn't enough work do have full time c/l and also at smaller hospitals its not as fun if your just seeing LOLs with delirium from UTIs the whole time. so basically the more prestigious the hospital (where they might get more fun cases) the less you will get paid. Getting paid well means demonstrating your value to the hospital. smaller hospitals may prefer nurse practitioners which i think is short sighted but such as it is. also you don't have to do research to do academics - most places have clinician/teacher academic tracks based on your teaching, curriculum development etc You might be expected to publish and present but this could be related to education or writing up case reports/series of fun cases you have seen. teaching is part of c/l (hence the liaison part) wherever you work.

outpatient consultation-liaison is where a psychiatrist is co-located in a specialty medical clinic or primary care seeing patients referred for evaluation and either sent back to the referring physician with recommendations or sent for follow-up elsewhere. depending on the clinic the psychiatrist might see patients for ongoing care. it is appointment-based, and not as fun as inpatient c/l in terms of dealing with acute medical illness and the hospital interface but you get to deal with a wide variety of problems. So I see some patients who dont have anything wrong with them, demoralization in the face of serious illness, adjustment disorders, people with poor adherence to their ARVs, substance use problems interfering with medical care, neuropsychiatric complications of HIV, have several patients who turned out to have dementias referred with "depression", "anxiety", anxiety disorders, psychosis, LOTS of personality pathology (mainly borderline/narcissistic). It is discouraged for psychiatrists to do therapy but I have a few brief therapy cases using supportive, cognitive-behavioral, and hypnotic interventions. Common areas for outpatient C/L include psycho-oncology, HIV psychiatry, transplantation, cardiology, pain, and diabetes. neuropsychiatry and perinatal psychiatry are other areas. Psycho-oncology includes lots of adjustment disorder, mood and anxiety disorders, chemo brain, and cancer related fatigue. But there might also be end-of-life issues, or managing cancer in patients with severe mental illness (e.g. patient with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia). HIV psychiatry is lots of addiction stuff, making sense of drug-drug interactions (less of an issue than you might expect), compulsive sexual behavior, adherence issues, coping, character disorder. Transplantation may involve psychosocial assessments for transplantation (but this is increasingly done by social workers), or pharmacological management in patients on complex drug regimens/organ failure, ethical issues (living donors etc), addictions, personality pathology. Cardiology is lots of depression/anxiety but also PTSD from ICD shocks etc. In primary care basically you just make recommendations for PCPs to manage their patients which can be very detailed (like "try x for 6-8 weeks, if that doesn't work try y, or if there is partial response augment with z") and provide lots of education and support. It's a slower pace but if you enjoy interacting with people from other specialties and providing consultation and education its good fun.
 
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Since it's somewhat on topic, what is the current consensus regarding combined programs (FM-Psych, IM-psych)? Overkill, unless one is looking to go into academia or find a nice little (hard to find) niche? A choice that comes at the expense of time and money? Or will this be a profitable decision- in terms of knowledge, application, and finance in the ever-changing environment of healthcare?
 
For Dharma's question, I have worked with a few combined psych / IM doctors. Two ended up practicing psych, one did IM. I have not seen anyone work in both capacities. They felt the training was valuable but did not really recommend it.

I think if you knew for sure you would only do CL at a large academic center that the combined program might be worth it (you would probably be a stellar CL doctor). Otherwise I don't think the tremendous extra work you would put in during residency would pay off in most psychiatric attending jobs. I would also worry that compressing both disciplines (7 years separately) into five years would mean you might skimp on certain aspects like psychotherapy, though it would be best to look at programs of interest directly to confirm or disconfirm that idea.

So my overall take would be that IM/psych isn't worth it outside of a few very special cases.
 
With hospitalists gaining popularity at most institutions, if one had both IM / Psych together, you could probably get a higher starting salary, or a bigger signing bonus. However, in the long term, increased earning opportunities are fairly low within a hospitalist group. You would be much better off either doing IM or Psych independently. Frankly, I think most psychiatry residents that are fresh out of residency, have a good working knowledge with psychosomatic medicine. A few years out from residency, you definitely lose that knowledge base.
 
This is more of a vent than a real contribution to the thread, but why the hell does C-L go through the match!?

I've got residency classmates getting offers from Neuropsych, Addictions, Geri, etc and are making plans for next year, but there's no way I can know if I'd be able to get a spot until January.

Meanwhile, I have an offer on the table for a very good job which includes helping getting an outpatient C-L clinic off the ground in a VA, which I've been told I'd need to say yes or no to by Thanksgiving.
 
This is more of a vent than a real contribution to the thread, but why the hell does C-L go through the match!?

I've got residency classmates getting offers from Neuropsych, Addictions, Geri, etc and are making plans for next year, but there's no way I can know if I'd be able to get a spot until January.

Meanwhile, I have an offer on the table for a very good job which includes helping getting an outpatient C-L clinic off the ground in a VA, which I've been told I'd need to say yes or no to by Thanksgiving.

I know it was a rhetorical question, but the answer is that there use to be a gentleman's agreement that applicants for PSM had until november to accept and could wait until then to make a final decision. unfortunately many programs didn't honor this so lots of people were accepting early on which disadvantaged some applicants and aggrieved other programs. i think this is only the 2nd year of the match for them.
 
yeah, unfortunately match results timing is way out of sync with when people would be looking for jobs. Unless I'm told that I'm the #1 candidate for the spot, I really am not comfortable turning down my current job offer for what wouldn't be a sure thing. I am only applying locally.
 
The VA job sounds like a great opportunity, I would think twice about doing that PSM fellowship. Especially if you are more interested in outpatient CL. Tell the program you are interested your dilemma. If they want you they should offer you a prematch (my understanding is this is legit for fellowships) or guarantee in writing they will match you within their spots. Even good fellowships run risk of not filling, or getting poor applicants because of how uncompetitive the field is so they should be willing to do this. If not, I would walk and take this job! Their loss!

edit: http://www.nrmp.org/faq-sections/policy-programs/ (prematches can be offered by programs)
 
I almost went for a CL fellowship and decided not to. Partially it was the lack of economic benefit (actually straight up economic LOSS), and partially i was the fact that at the end of the day I completely and wholeheartedly reject the proliferation of extra mandatory fellowships. The majority of CL certified docs were grandfathered in, and then decided that the rest of us need to train for an extra year. So due to being born in the wrong year I'm now required to do more training? Screw that and screw the dinguses who came up with the concept.

We go to med school, and get 3x as much clinical training across specialties as a mid-level by the time we graduate. We then go on to do 4 months of med as residents. We aren't internists but there is literally no excuse for not being somewhat competent at internal medicine.

I've worked with some CL attendings who were grandfathered and some who did fellowships, and some with no cert at all. The fellowship-trained ones weren't necessarily all that impressive. And I spent plenty of time schooling them (and the med teams) on medical conditions that were contributing to the psych presentation.

The CL fellowship will either disappear, or it will become something you test into. It's not sustainable and that's shown in how few sign up for it.
 
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