PsyD and teaching

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Sanman

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Out of curiousity, how would having a PsyD affect a person looking for academic positions that were primarily teaching oriented, such as at liberal arts colleges and other places where research isn't a major factor?

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Negatively, but it is based upon nothing realistic other than a bunch of old-boys with PhD's, no clinical training, and a grudge against where psychology is going. This will change...

:)
 
This used to be a cocern for me also, however as long as you are not dead set on teaching at hardcore research acadamic institution, there are plenty of teaching opportunities. Recently teaching positions for PsyDs include medical schools, all the professional schools, college PsyD programs like George Washington, Pepperdine etc. Also many PhD programs have picked up PsyDs for clinical teaching. So the opportunities are there and growing.
 
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Paendrag said:
.......Ph.D. land is that Psy.D. programs will let in anyone. From a relative point-of-view, this is true. Basically, Psy.D. programs do not truncate their samples. This means that on average Psy.D. students and professionals will be less intellectually (or academically in any case) capable than their Ph.D. peers.

I think that your point is well taken for free standing PsyD programs (prof. schools), however it has no weight with university based or medical school based PsyD programs like George Washington, Peperdine, Rutgers, etc. These programs are very competitive and smaller in class size #. They do not just let anyone in. I think that it is true to say that as far as clinical practice goes, if you do not do it you lose it. Many of the better PsyD programs provide literally 1000's and 1000's of practicum and clinical hours. In many cases 2 to 4 times the hours one could hope to get in a PhD program. Many of the best or better clinicians are simply better because they have more practice. If at the end of the day you want to be a clinician your best route is one of these upper tier PsyD programs. You wont be forced to publish / research and you will optimize your clinical hands on training. Not all PhDs are created equally either many of the researched base programs can't even produce a clinician. They make great professors who can theorize all day long but lack practical application. You can't lump all PhD's together just like you can't lump all PsyD's together.
 
I agree with Psici (who, if I'm not mistaken, has both a PsyD and a PhD) and the Captain.

It's ludicrous to say that a program like Rutgers' PsyD program is comparatively easy to get into. A secretary there told me that they had more than 400 applicants last year for 6 clinical slots! I don't know of any programs (PhD or otherwise) who get more.

I do agree that there is a lot of variety among PsyD programs, but there are several (usually university-based) that are very highly regarded. (I'm talking highly regarded by the people who actually work with them!)

I've noticed that almost all of the PsyD-dissing that goes on in this forum is by relatively inexperienced students, not professionals, and is of a blatantly self-serving nature. The reason most people choose the PsyD route is not because they can't get into a PhD program, but because they have a greater interest in practice than research. I myself was encouraged to take the PsyD route by my two PhD-trained clinical psychologist sisters-in-law (with a combined professional experience of more than fifty years!), because PsyDs are a better fit with my interests.

Self-serving PsyD disparagement is no better than psychiatrists dissing psychologists or psychologists dissing social workers. There ought to be room for all of us, no? We shouldn't have to put others down to make ourselves feel better, right? I'm 37 years old and, this stuff has gotten way old...

About the question of teaching, I do know of several Indiana State PsyD graduates who have adjunct faculty positions at liberal arts colleges.

Anyway, thanks for reading!
 
Just out of curiosity, what does your wife think about this issue? Does she agree that the extra hours of clinical training in her program was for nothing?
 
If you take a look around both the psychology and psychiatry sections on this forum you will see that this kind of dissing appears at regular intervals. Hang around the psychiatry forum for a few days, you will see what I mean. I know you are new here, so perhaps it was unfair of me to jump on you straight away.

I have also made a similar point elsewhere about a clearer distinction between professions being needed. I think that (should be) a separate issue. But of course you're not expected to read everything!

My main point was that people tend to overgeneralize when they talk about PsyD programs. So anyone who's interested should make decisions based on individual programs. My second point was that a lot of the negative stuff that people say about PsyDs comes from people who don't know a lot about it. It was not directed at you personally...
 
[ For example, my subspecialty is neuropsychology, I feel that my training in brain-behavior relationships and various cognitive neuroscience issues greatly informs the applied end of what I do. I don't think spending lots of hours, say as a neuropsych tech, giving Trail Making Tests would have been a good substitute. I did have ~3000 practicum hours going into internship and my program had a very heavy research emphasis (I also had >10 publications and >30 conference presentations when I finished).

Hey Paendrag, what do you think about Psy.D in the neuropsych field. Is there any where you at? DO you see any opportunity for the Psy.d students?

Thanks
 
WOW, I leave for a day and all of a sudden the forum comes alive.
well as far as PsyD programs are concerned, I believe that the the programs there is a lot of variability in the quality of the program. I have applied to 1 PsyD program this year. It is a scientist-practitioner program with a required dissertation, optional master's thesis, and is funded. I also have friends who applied to the professional schools. The diffference amazes me. The program I applied to has better internship match stats than some of the PhD programs I applied to. The problem that I am finding with regard to programs, both PhD and PsyD, is that every program has its bent and you have to be fairly sure what you want to do afterward. Those that allow you good involvement in clinical, research, and teaching are very long (7-8 years).

Paendag, I do agree with you on the lack of knowledge in brain-behavior relationships. Some of the grad students in my neuropsychology lab have less biological knowledge than I do. Granted I come from a strong biology background, originally being pre-med interested in neurology.
 
Paendrag said:
I don't know any professional Psy.Ds. I do know lots of students. As far as I know, there is no problem with Psy.D.s working in neuropsychology. In my wife's program, their match rate for internship was pretty good (a lot of VAs and military positions). Some of the practica students where I'm at are concerned about competing for Div. 40 internships. For neuropsychology, there are training guidelines and there is a certification board. It requires certain things. However, as of now, the board has no teeth, meaning that there is nothing stopping someone with a doctorate in psychology (ph.d. or psy.d.) from practicing neuropsychology regardless of their training.



Thank you very much for your information. I a am very interested in neuropsych. Last year I attended one of the best medical schools in the country,however, i decided medical school was not for me (it was not the work load, I had a 4.0, but just wanted to be with my family). Currently enrolled in a Psy.D program. Thank you so much for your helpful insight to those of us who are new.

Funny you said about brain-behavior relationship. Just today, the professor asked a question about the brain, I took neuro anatamy in med school, and i gave a very detail explanation.....She told the class that that was the most profound and exact explanation she has ever heard in 35 years of teaching. My biological background has helped me alot, since I did not have any psychological background in my life....thanks u

Tigre
 
Hey Tigre if you do not mind sharing I am curious to how your medical experience was in more detail. I am 32 and have 2 daughters and I have been thinking about applying to medical school. I have taken the MCAT and everything and my stats are not bad, but I am a psych undergrad and really love the field of psychology so this year I applied to 3 psychology programs. Out of curiousity how does your PsyD program as far as allowing you time with your family compare to medical school. Any info would be appreciated.
 
EL CAPeeeTAN said:
Hey Tigre if you do not mind sharing I am curious to how your medical experience was in more detail. I am 32 and have 2 daughters and I have been thinking about applying to medical school. I have taken the MCAT and everything and my stats are not bad, but I am a psych undergrad and really love the field of psychology so this year I applied to 3 psychology programs. Out of curiousity how does your PsyD program as far as allowing you time with your family compare to medical school. Any info would be appreciated.

Hi El Capeetan. My medical experience was really good. I really learned some great stuff. However, it is quiet a different environment. In medical school I spent about 12-16 hours a day in class or studying. (Not to much time was spent with my wife). That is how I got the grades in undergrad and in med school…hard work. Too be honest, I do not feel challenge in the Psy.D program. I see many students freaking out while in my opinion, there is nothing to freak out. It is not like taking medical bio-chem, where they dump you with a whole year of organic-chemistry (undergrad) in two or three lectures. Hopefully, no one is taking offense of this….Like you…I did not take a single class of psychology during undergrad, however, since my wife is a psychologist, I felt her passion and therefore, got connected.

I think I jumped the gun to soon when I decided to go to medical school, I just wanted to make money. After a while my heart was not there and felt I was doing medicine for the wrong reasons. Too much time away from my wife was killing me. Especially as a newly-wed.

The only advise I can give is follow your heart. Medical school is not hard per-say, it is just the amount of material that is overwhelming. I do cherish my biological background….For the stats…I scored a 39 in the MCAT’s….many hours of hard work…You are a little bit older (for the medical school application) but if you really want a career in medicine, and if you heart is there, go for it….You WILL make it all the way….Just the fact that you are perusing a doctoral degree at this stage speaks a ton about you…..If you have any questions bout my background or the medical school application process, don’t hesitate to ask.

Tigre
 
Tigre,
Thank you so much for the info. I have applied to some med schools this year along with psychology programs. I have many friends who are at various stages in the medical education progress. I have worked in healthcare since I graduated from college. I worked for Pfizer as a pharmaceutical rperesentative, then I started a business consulting business for physicians and ultimately worked very close with many physicians and psychologists. I became more and more interested in the medical aspect and I have always loved psychology and I have a strong desire to work with others through psychology. My Bro in law and father in law are both doctorate level psychologists and I have worked with them and their practices. My one concern about medical school is the time and being pulled away from my family. Being 32 also plays into the situation. I know that psychology will require lots of time and work, so this is why I wanted to ask you about your situation. Thanks for the input!!! If you have any other advice let me know and good luck with your education.
 
Paendrag : Do you know if anyone interested in neuropsych fellowship should follow a neuropsych course sequence to be competitive for a neuropsych fellowship. I know some of the professional schools only offer one or two classes in neuro psych, do you think this is enough?

Also, what do you reccomend any of us to do to be competitive for neuropsych fellowship? Do we need to do a practicum in neuropsych? Do all practicums need to be APA accredited?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Tigre
 
Well since we are asking about neuropsychology, I might as well ask a question. What is the job market like for neuropsychologists nowadays?
 
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