About the ads

Purely salary question

Discussion in 'Podiatry Students' started by moneymoneymoney, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. SDN is a nonprofit organization. Services are made possible through the generous support of SDN members and sponsors. Thank you.
  1. moneymoneymoney

    moneymoneymoney

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)

    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    I got into NYCPM, good scholarship too.
    I got into SGU, Carribean MD school.

    I don't care if I am a podiatrist or any type of Md, They all appeal to me. Realistically, coming out of a Caribbean School i will most likely practice as an internist, ped, or family medicine.
    So I am looking for peoples opinions on what they think will allow me to make the most money working in NYC.
    NYCPM id graduate with roughly 100,000 worth of loans.
    SGU id graduate with roughly 220,000 worth of loans.
  2. Ankle Breaker

    Ankle Breaker Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,500
    Location:
    Star City
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Podiatrist SDN 2+ Year Member
    Loans will eventually be paid off no matter what profession you go into. Other then cost you might want to make a chart with positives and negatives of both professions. Whichever has the most positives should be the profession you choose.
  3. 347932

    347932

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,072
    Location:
    Not where you think
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    it's so funny...in a rich man's world...
  4. flyhi

    flyhi

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,525
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    The loans aren't the problem, it's the residency issue coming from a Carrib med school. I would recommend researching this thoroughly.

    But, what I really want to say is: :troll:
  5. PADPM

    PADPM

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,683
    Location:
    East Coast-maybe????
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 2+ Year Member

    money, money, money???? Really? I not going to even dignify these questions with an answer. But the line "I don't care if I am a podiatrist or any type of MD" is amazing.

    Hint: You'd BETTER care.
  6. moneymoneymoney

    moneymoneymoney

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    Why cant folks on SDN give an objective answer. I did not ask for opinions on what i should care about or whether my rationale is ethical. I was under the impression that SDN is a place where one can get answers to their questions. Am I wrong?
    I shadowed podiatrists, i shadowed doctors. I would be happy doing either. hence the phrase "I don't care if i am a podiatrist or MD"
    So in the end, a part of my decision will rest on the dollars and cents outcome i can expect practicing in any of these fields.

    I don't want to put myself through 4 years of graduate school and 3+ years residency to discover I made the wrong financial decision. Because, as much as many of you would like to disagree, becoming a physician of any kind IS (among other things) a financial decision.

    Anklebreaker- thanks for the direct response to the question
  7. bobdolerson

    bobdolerson

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    416
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I'm in agreement with you here.

    I wasn't focused on podiatry as a career, and it's still not something that I'm specifically more passionate or interested in more than all other areas of medicine, it was just the field that had an appropriate timeline and endpoint for my goals.

    Long story short, there are about 500 threads about this, and many government websites with these stats that are far more reliable than any random people. I'd search for those and for the other threads.
  8. hematosis

    hematosis Slappin Da Bass

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    402
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I think going the podiatry route is a safer bet in my opinion. Although sgu has good match results and high board passing rates, it can be challenging moving around and doing rotations in various places, etc. If you go to nycpm you really dont have to worry about that.
    Now to answer your question, i do think that if you work hard and get a high caliber residency in podiatry that your earning potential can be quite high. look at the mgma salary comparisons among physicians to get a better idea.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2012
  9. PADPM

    PADPM

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,683
    Location:
    East Coast-maybe????
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    It's difficult to give an objective opinion, when a poster seems only motivated by money, and it's reinforced with a screen name of "moneymoneymoney".

    The problem is that there realistically is no answer to your question. Statistics in my opinion are really meaningless. It depends on your individual clinical skills, your attitude, your location, and of course some luck. I've read all the MGMA salaries and believe that you can't really base decisions on those salaries. If you look at their numbers and the numbers reported by the APMA, there is a difference.

    As a GENERAL rule, pediatricians are at the lower end of the pay scale and FPs/GP's and internists also are toward the bottom of that scale. However, I know of two local pediatricians who probably bring in close to 7 figures due to some very progressive and aggressive practice management moves. Similarly, I know some podiatrists who are just scraping by, and other podiatrists who are bringing in 7 figures.

    Our practice is probably in the top 1-2% in the country for revenue, but we have a high overhead and work very hard. So in addition to other factors, it depends on how much time you want to dedicate to "work".

    This is NOT an insult, but my following comments are based on many years of experience and observation. You don't necessarilyl have to be a "good/quality" doctor to make a lot of money. There are many docs out there performing unnecessary surgery, taking xrays for no reason, selling quack products, less than ethical billing, etc., etc. These docs are making lots of money, but should not be emulated.

    Please be very careful, because it is very easy to let money be your motivating factor in practice. I've witnessed it too many times, and ultimately those practices/doctors fail in the long run.

    Yes, making a good living is important, especially with the financial investement and time dedicated to achieve the end product. But as I've stated before, if you work hard, remain ethical/honest and treat patients well, you WILL succeed and make a better than average income.

    I know you are smart enough to realize that despite any comments or advice you receive regarding your ultimate career choice, there are NO guarantees regarding your future income. So once you make a decision, live with that decision and don't look back. The docs I know of all types who aren't doing well, are always complaining and finding a reason to blame someone else, AND are often the docs who don't exactly work hard. I don't know how many younger docs I've spoken with who complain of less than envious income, but go to the office at 10 am, take an hour for lunch and are done at 4 pm. That's NOT the formula for success in most instances.

    Once again, make a decision, don't look back, work hard, remain honest and you'll be ahead of the curve.
  10. 347932

    347932

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,072
    Location:
    Not where you think
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Best advice ever.
  11. that1guyfromFL

    that1guyfromFL

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Messages:
    405
    Location:
    FL
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    This times 100. :thumb up:
  12. moneymoneymoney

    moneymoneymoney

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    I came looking for a "guarantee" Im begning to see there are none when it comes to being a physician, and probably in any aspect of life.. I plan on working my ass off no matter what school I am in and believe I have the potential to do great. If youre the best at what you do....sky is the limit.

    That aside, I feel im leaning more towards podiatry. It seems from the research I have done that Podiatry is really headed on an upward slope in terms of respect, knowledge and integration inro the larger general community. On the other hand IMG's it seems are heading in a downward trend as forces are trying to squeeze them out. Especially in regards to residency placement.
    29% of SGU residents match outside of the NRMP. This is the last year that is allowed and even though the administration "assures me" it wont have an effect. I feel that their residency placement is going to take a big hit. No1 can really know until March 2013 though. So its a gamble I don't think i'm willing to take.
  13. MaxillofacialMN

    MaxillofacialMN Osteopathic Foot Dentist

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,834
    Location:
    The Grand Ballroom
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    :thumbup:
  14. MaxillofacialMN

    MaxillofacialMN Osteopathic Foot Dentist

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,834
    Location:
    The Grand Ballroom
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Eh, there's no money in medicine anymore.
  15. Black Surgeon

    Black Surgeon A QUIXOTIC RADICAL

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    423
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    DPM is a great plan, is D.O also an option for you? It seems like a better financial investment than a Carribean MD.

    A common denominator amongst those who succeed financially, professionally or academically in their respective fields is that they love what they do. I am a true believer in the old addage of "do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life".
  16. NatCh

    NatCh Senior Moment

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    985
    Location:
    Oregon
    Status:
    Podiatrist
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Have you looked into dentistry? If you would be equally satisfied doing that line of work then I think that financially it is as appealing or more appealing than most medical specialties.
  17. MaxillofacialMN

    MaxillofacialMN Osteopathic Foot Dentist

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,834
    Location:
    The Grand Ballroom
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Like NatCh said, if you don't mind the work, Drilling, Filling, and Billing can be VERY lucrative. It is, however, very monotonous.
  18. jon316

    jon316

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Status:
    Pre-Podiatry
    :cool:
  19. pacpod

    pacpod Who Dey! Staff Member Administrator SDN Senior Moderator Gold Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,136
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Podiatrist SDN Published Author SDN 2+ Year Member
    It doesn't matter which way you go, but pick it because you are truly interested in it, not because it makes more money. I know of several physicians who are making a killing to put it lightly but are miserable while others who may not be making as much are happy. If you aren't sure, maybe you should take a year to think about what you really want to do. One year off is so worth it if it means you are more sure about your future career.

    I wish you the best of luck with your future endeavors.
  20. SuperFeisty

    SuperFeisty

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    369
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Personal happiness is overrated :cool: Responsibility to your family comes first. :)
  21. pacpod

    pacpod Who Dey! Staff Member Administrator SDN Senior Moderator Gold Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,136
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Podiatrist SDN Published Author SDN 2+ Year Member
    Responsibility is important, I agree with you there. But we are talking the difference between salaries above 100k/year. Responsibility is well taken care of here.
  22. SuperFeisty

    SuperFeisty

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    369
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Not if you realize your dream is to be an MD. 7 more years of poverty my friend! I like nice things...
  23. pacpod

    pacpod Who Dey! Staff Member Administrator SDN Senior Moderator Gold Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,136
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Podiatrist SDN Published Author SDN 2+ Year Member
    Like I said, go into what you will be happy/fulfilled with or as it has also been put what your "dream" is.

    Regardless, weigh out the situation for what you truly want to do and best of luck to you, OP.
  24. Melomare17

    Melomare17

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    817
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Just had a question regarding the salary. In the PMCIB book, it has data from 2008 for the net income. Below it says this:

    In the chart it says:
    So do these values indicate the average income after overhead costs and taxes OR just after overhead costs?

    edit--just curious as someone who has considered the medical field (MD and DO) and the dental field (DDS and DMD) and recently started considering podiatry (DPM).
  25. 347932

    347932

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,072
    Location:
    Not where you think
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I think we need some clear definitions here. These values are PERSONAL income; as in salaries. These are generally reported as GROSS income as there is no way to accurately assess NET income which is dependent on how many deductions you take on your W2, as well as other factors.

    "Overhead" is a business issue and doesn't factor into PERSONAL income. It factors into what a business costs to run. The two are mutually exclusive.
  26. Melomare17

    Melomare17

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    817
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Hmm thanks for clarifying that Kidsfeet! I know this next question depends on the practice, but do you (or anyone else) know the average cost of overhead for podiatrists (or even your colleagues out in the field)--is it 20% of income, 50%, more than that?

    I only ask because I was discouraged by one dentist in the dental field who said his overhead costs were really high and he had to work 20-30 hours more than the average dentist to make it worth keeping his practice open.
  27. AttackNME

    AttackNME

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    198
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Keep in mind that money comes easy when you like doing your job. In choosing podiatry, you know what to expect. In choosing an MD/DO program, you still have to match into a specialty, which as you know have drastic differences.
  28. 347932

    347932

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,072
    Location:
    Not where you think
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I would say the average is between 50-60%. There are SO many variables within that number though, it's really dependent on each individual practice and how it is run. There are MANY ways to "fudge" that number.
  29. podpal

    podpal

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    187
    Status:
    Podiatrist
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    As medicine moves into more electronic regulations by the US government one thing to consider is the type of job offer you may get from each field. As an MD you will likely be courted by multispecialty groups if you go into general surgery, for example. After Caribbean Med school you will have options. Also keep in mind that once you complete your general surgery residency there are still opportunities to advance surgically, although it is so competitive.
    From a monetary perspective I'd pick an MD program at this point in our governments evolution. Practitioners who have large multispecialty opportunities have greater opportunity for higher salary, research, diverse patient populations, and career advancement. I don't see as many options for pods in the USA as for MDs. In terms of student debt, there appears to me more negotiability with multispecialty groups as an MD. Debt repayment may be a part of a package that a group may offer.
  30. Melomare17

    Melomare17

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    817
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Woah that seems really high--wait then are podiatrists on average making 75-80k after overhead costs?

    Just trying to consider financial security once out in the field.
  31. 347932

    347932

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,072
    Location:
    Not where you think
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    In the business world lower than 50% overhead is amazing!!!

    Where did you come up with that salary figure?
  32. Melomare17

    Melomare17

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    817
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Oh I did not know that. Hm I think I'm miscalculating based off different info--recent graduates told me that the average salary is around 150k, so based off that I came up with the 75-80k if its 50% overhead, unless they meant for new podiatrists in the field is 150k?
  33. 347932

    347932

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,072
    Location:
    Not where you think
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Whoa. You are talking apples and oranges, here.

    "Overhead" is what it costs a business to run on a daily basis. Rent/Mortgage for the property, keeping the lights on, paying your staff, buying supplies...etc.

    It certainly has to do with what you as the business owner takes home in salary every month, but is not calculated in your personal expenses.
  34. moneymoneymoney

    moneymoneymoney

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    wheres delete option?
  35. bobdolerson

    bobdolerson

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    416
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Not to mention the tax-deductible business trips to Hawaii for conferences, golf-outings with prospective employees, etc, etc :)
  36. Melomare17

    Melomare17

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    817
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Alright thanks for clarifying!
  37. Shnurek

    Shnurek

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,335
    Location:
    NYC
    Status:
    Optometry Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I wouldn't work in NYC as a Doctor. One of the worst places to be any kind of Doctor in. But if you must: http://www.citydoctors.com/
  38. rusny

    rusny

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    15
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    What do you think about becoming a CRNA
    Logically and financially it sounds good
    Pros:
    - One of the highest salaries ~150K
    - Less loans for education
    - Easier to find a job
    - Secure job
    - Health insurance and unions
    Cons:
    - Being a nurse rather than a doctor
  39. NatCh

    NatCh Senior Moment

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    985
    Location:
    Oregon
    Status:
    Podiatrist
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    I think CRNA is a great field. We use them in our surgery center and they've always worked independently and have done an excellent job without any reservations.

    Whether being a nurse rather than a doctor is a "con" is purely personal. Many people don't find it a negative thing at all.
  40. NatCh

    NatCh Senior Moment

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    985
    Location:
    Oregon
    Status:
    Podiatrist
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Tell that to my artist buddy.
  41. Traum

    Traum

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    95
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    A CRNA is vastly important in medicine. They are critically impt.

    Being a "nurse" v. a "doctor."

    Prestige and title means little. You cannot eat "prestige" and there's not much "prestige" being a "doctor."

    The things that mean a lot are: life balance, great pay for hours worked, few student loans, tons of demand, and numerous employment options, equity interest, (not just job/position, or 1099 contractor) and wealth of opportunities. Look in trade journals for CRNA employment opps. Look them up for DPMs. Do much due diligence. Akin to home inspections.

    There are also CRNA loan repayment opportunities and employment opportunities that pay back student loans if you have any.

    A DPM remains a raised eyebrow, an unknown to many, and there remains medical/health folks who still think podiatrists are ancillary service providers; 50 states with 50 different scopes/definitions of what podiatry services are does not help either.

    Good luck.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  42. NeilD

    NeilD

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    Messages:
    50
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    It's more competitive to get into CRNA school than Podiatry - I know I am on probation and am not trying to start trouble.
  43. jonwill

    jonwill SDN Senior Moderator Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,679
    Location:
    Southwest
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Podiatrist SDN 7+ Year Member
    That is really a "half truth". It depends on the podiatry school and it depends on the CRNA program.
  44. 347932

    347932

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,072
    Location:
    Not where you think
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Really?

    What are the undergraduate stats needed to get into a CRNA program? Is there a requirement for a test like the MCAT?
  45. PADPM

    PADPM

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,683
    Location:
    East Coast-maybe????
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Actually, gaining entrance into a CRNA program is very competitive at the present time, though I don't know how to make comparisons with our profession. I know a LOT of nurses who are attempting that route. Their plans are to eventually work in a free standing surgical center. Never have to get "dressed up", no nights, no weekends, mostly healthy patients (or they would be in a hospital) and mostly non-complicated elective patients, witih no emergency on-call duty.

    Sounds great to me, not to mention a very nice salary. However, there was a comment regarding supervision, and I believe that although a CRNA can administer during a case, there must be an anesthesiologist in a supervisory role in the facility, Don't know that as a fact, but I believe it's accurate.
  46. flyhi

    flyhi

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,525
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    No, this is pretty much an absolute truth. It is actually more competitive to get into regular nursing school than podiatry school. Not that the pre-req's are the same, but try taking your biochem/engineering/chemistry major with a 3.3 gpa and going up against an education major who went back to take nursing pre-req's and got a 4.0. The latter will win EVERY time in nursing. They not only do not appreciate the more difficult curriculum, but if you haven't wanted to be a nurse from the womb, good luck.

    CRNA - you need a minimum of 1 year acute care experience, which is almost impossible to get as a new RN grad. The AVERAGE number of years spent as a nurse prior to getting into CRNA school is about 6 years and again, is highly competitive.

    If you really want to do gas as a mid-level, look into an Anesthetist Assistant. It requires the same pre-reqs as pre-med and the MCAT. Still extremely competitive, but you don't have to become a nurse first.
  47. flyhi

    flyhi

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,525
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Must be an RN with acute care experience. You can become an RN through several different routes in the US - hospital-based program (almost non-existent these days), associate's, bachelors, accelerated bachelor's (1.5 year program for those with bachelor's), accelerated masters. Getting into the nursing programs take an act of Congress and then the CRNA programs are highly, highly competitive with nurses who have been in the business for many years with excellent grades and CV's. It's no joke. Way more competitive than podiatry at this point. Why? Because the commitment is a fraction of the time, entrance pre-req's are much easier, PT and FT programs, less ultimate responsibility/more family life, decent pay and stability.

    I would guess that for most RN programs the gpa is well above a 3.5 average and CRNA 3.7 and above.
  48. amaprez

    amaprez

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    362
    Wow nice summary. I've wanted this explained to me for a while now. I always get so confused by all the nursing tracks. So what is the difference in training for a BSN vs a RN vs a DNP?
  49. NatCh

    NatCh Senior Moment

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    985
    Location:
    Oregon
    Status:
    Podiatrist
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    If that is a rule then it is not universal as I have done cases with CRNAs without any Anesthesiologist at the facility. Perhaps it varies state-to-state or facility-to-facility?

    Frankly, I'm unclear as to exactly what an anesthesiologist can do that a CRNA cannot.
  50. flyhi

    flyhi

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,525
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    An RN means Registered Nurse. You get this designation by taking the RN licensing exam (NCLEX?). All of the routes I mentioned will get you to the point of taking the exam. The difference in the routes, are basically the amount of education and the letters behind your name. BSN = Bachelor's of Science in Nursing, MSN = Master's of Science in Nursing and DNP = Doctor of Nursing Practice. You can still become a Nurse Practitioner (NP) and CRNA (I believe) with a Master's even though the profession is pushing towards requiring the DNP for nurse practitioners, nurse anesthetists and nurse midwives

    Hospital-based program - you become an RN
    Associates degree - you become an RN and earn an Associate's Degree
    Bachelor's degree in Nursing - you become an RN and earn a BSN
    Accelerated Bachelor's for second degree student - you become an RN and have a BS or BA as a previous degree and then obtain a BSN as a second degree in 12-16 mos.
    Master's - you become an RN and earn a BSN and MSN
    Accelerated Master's for students without a BSN - you become an RN and have a BS or BA from previous degree and then obtain a MSN

    DNP - there are a few ways to obtain this as well. Some will let you go from BSN - DNP and others through a Master's or Accelerated Master's. Most of the hoopla for this degree stems around those desiring to become a Nurse Practitioner, as it is supposed to be a terminal clinical degree, yet some DNP programs are all online with minimal clinical exposure. Oh, and the whole nurse calling themselves 'Doctor' thing :rolleyes:

Share This Page


About the ads