Push back against 120MED paid for by OPB.

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

101N

Membership Revoked
Removed
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
5,313
Reaction score
1,085
Last edited:
This guy is on 110MEQ of meds for what? I listened to that entire thing and the best I can tell its musculoskeletal pain and he has never had surgery. Seriously? And he doesn't see being maxed out on narcs as a treatment failure?
 
yup, sounded like cervical spondylosis to me
 
Members don't see this ad :)
You can "hear" his pain behaviors -- the shaky, hesitant voice. Not saying he's not in pain, but that voice... I hear it all day.
I hear their frustration though, our tools aren't great.

Still I don't like the general tone that the patient knows more than the doc. The enabling wife kept saying "an addict wouldn't do (this and that)..." as though she is an expert in pain medicine and addiction.

And the host sounded incredulous of physicians.
 
Last edited:
I will give him credit though if he is actually working. 99% I have seen on high doses don't work. "Work" is actually listed as an allergy for them.
 
He's supposedly @ 110. If there isn't aberrancy or a benzos I'd likely give him amnesty.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
for what? no pass from me.

this is a patient that has no discernible pathology, negative studies on imaging multiple times. has tried blocks. has tried RFA. no benefit to any (suggesting that cervical spondylosis is not present or treatable)

"working" as a self-employed contractor, who admits that his clients would not hire him if they knew he was on opioids. concerning...

clearly tolerant. clearly dependent. having withdrawal symptoms that occurs when he is 1/2 day short.

he makes comments about doctors messing up but alludes to the fact that he never does. blames them throughout the interview - never his fault. also, he outright admits that he lies to his doctors.

he is relying solely on opioids for "relief", has no concept that this relief that he might be getting is illusory and temporary. says he might be interested in CBT/psychology, but does not ever explore or talk about using this avenue (comments how he thinks it is interesting but it wont be able to cover his pain, doesnt ever say he has tried or is using it. also, being psychologically dependent on opioids means that he has never really utilized CBT)

he is getting max 2 hours per dose of opioids. on 110 MED (assuming he calculated it correctly - we dont know for sure). his lowest level of pain is a 6. last 2 hours are miserable between doses. feels this is not enough, and he needs more but he is worried his doctor will cut off his supply. he feels he is being noble by not taking extra - when this is a sign of tolerance and lack of benefit from said dose.

he and she do not feel that this is any way close to an adequate amount, and even if given whatever he needs, he doesnt feel he would ever get back into society.

she expresses some possibility for CBT, but clearly both of them do not believe that this should be the primary treatment, and relying on opioids is appropriate in their minds.

lots of denial.
- classic line = "other people are ruining it for the rest of us." denial in that addicts wouldnt jump through the hoops that they do to get opioids.

- denial that he can do things without the meds. yet he does know that he cannot do anything like watch a movie without his pills

- they are in denial in that she knows it is not hard to identify drug abuser from someone who is not.

- also denial - quoting that only 3% of chronic opioid users are addicts.

- defers on answering whether he knows that there are side effects from the medication.

he is an addict, regardless of her protestations.

this gentleman is managing his life and psychological issues through opioid medication.


finally, ironically, her biggest fear is that she will lose him to suicide when he wont be able to get his opioids. one can argue that she lost him a long time ago to the same dope.

fyi to those interested, i spent only an extra 2 minutes after listening to the segment typing this note....
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I'm not opioid prohibition.
 
I'm not opioid prohibition.
im not either. but this is not imo an appropriate candidate for long term opioid therapy. imo, for example, his DIRE calculates out to 12, possibly 13.

fyi, i might not be adverse to Butrans, but at 110 MED, he is a little too high for conversion...
 
The issue is the tempo of change.
 
if i worked as a pain doc in private practice, could I get away with not having a DEA license?

How cool would that be? I would be fine not giving Lyrica. Can I get a DEA license for only scheduled V?

I learned a great line on here by someone about fibromyalgia - "I'm sorry patient, I'm not very good at treating Fibro. I have had very little success with that disease. Move on please."

Could I use the same approach with opioids? "Yes I know...it sounds like opioids are what you think you need and that is what you want. I get it. However, I'm not good at getting people to respond well with that treatment. I just don't know how to manage it well. Everyone I give it to seems to always want more, they have lowered testosterone, they get depressed, their personality changes, they actually have increasing pain over time - and not to mention the headaches. Don't get me started on the headaches I cause with that stuff. Bottom line, I suck at managing patients on opioids. You would be much better off with someone else that knows the answer to all that stuff I just mentioned."

I think I'll try that....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Opioid Tolerant CNP:
Dangerous Medication (MTD) Dangerous dose (>120MED), Dangerous Combination of Drugs(opioid/benzo/sedative) = Harm Reduction
Aberrancy or Addiction = Stop/Taper/Referral for Addiction Tx
But if none of the above = Continue Medication

Opioid Naive CNP:
Take a big breath cause things are changing.

Elderly Naive CNP:
Least harms COT
 

Attachments

  • Legacy Opioid Patient J.001.jpg
    Legacy Opioid Patient J.001.jpg
    63.4 KB · Views: 26
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Just listened to this. I think it would only be fair to have a running commentary of clinical rationale for this radio show. There are a lot of mis-statements like "saying you have pain is a red flag."
 
Opioid Tolerant CNP:
Dangerous Medication (MTD) Dangerous dose (>120MED), Dangerous Combination of Drugs(opioid/benzo/sedative) = Harm Reduction
Aberrancy or Addiction = Stop/Taper/Referral for Addiction Tx
But if none of the above = Continue Medication

Opioid Naive CNP:
Take a big breath cause things are changing.

Elderly Naive CNP:
Least harms COT

Where's buprenorphine in your algorithm?
 
In my practice buprenorphine is drug of choice for high-dose 'lost generation'. But, role is
expanding. Elderly and frail or those with pulmonary disease as well. Coverage is the issue.
Hope that changes with 2 forms of bupe now FDA approved for pain: transdermal and SL.
 
I would avoid the SL buprenorphine because it has a very high abuse potential and a high street value.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Compare the risks - addiction or ODD - of buprenorphine sublingual with that of any other full agonist.
Abusable, yes,but risk of ODD is much, much, much lower. Moreover street value, addiction liability,
and risk of ODD are all much higher with oxycodone, hyromorphone, oxymorphone, fentanyl and
even morphine.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6126a5.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26305073
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23235296
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26024998
 
I am just pointing out that in my area buprenorphine SL, and the suboxone film preparation, are high value street drugs and it is obviously more abuseable compared to transdermal. Many addicts use buprenorphine to stave off withdrawal and/or mix it with benzos to get a high. If you are using it for those lost causes on high dose narcotics then use trnasdermal formulations.
 
I'm confused. If your talk therapy works as miraculously as you say, and the dominant diagnosis remains central sensitization in virtually all comers, why would you be OK with continuing this patient on a therapeutic option you insist is ineffective?
 
I know you are addressing this to someone else... But Legacy patients who have been exposed to the intoxicating effects of COT are essentially a lost cause - they will most likely not respond CBT or to the concept that COT is dangerous/not effective - because they will have essentially the CS of opioids.

So, introduce the concept, but risk mitigation is probably the primary focus of treatment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Indeed, so the answer is not to accept them into your practice in the first place, not to continue to feed their habit with a hypocritical 110 MED (afterall, it's "safe", since it's below that magical 120. You can't possibly OD if it's less than that)
 
Indeed, so the answer is not to accept them into your practice in the first place, not to continue to feed their habit with a hypocritical 110 MED (afterall, it's "safe", since it's below that magical 120. You can't possibly OD if it's less than that)

It is not safe. It is less unsafe.
 
I know you are addressing this to someone else... But Legacy patients who have been exposed to the intoxicating effects of COT are essentially a lost cause - they will most likely not respond CBT or to the concept that COT is dangerous/not effective - because they will have essentially the CS of opioids.

So, introduce the concept, but risk mitigation is probably the primary focus of treatment.

Yes, there is a tempo to change and the lost generation is so named for a reason.

As an aside, dependence upon opioids - among other things - is a well described predictor of failure to complete
a functional rehabilitation program. Moreover, if you look at Medicaid patients referred for a FRP most exhibit
many/most of the criteria that predict treatment failure - opioid dependence, active compensation issues, female sex, non-working status, extreme disability (VAS, Catastrophizing, etc). Of 10 patients referred to a FRP typically less than half will attend the first session, and at most 10-30% will complete all sessions depending upon whose data you are looking at. Consequently, I feel our efforts with these folks now needs to be harm reduction #1 and introducing 'CS' #2. 'CS' is a very unpalatable concept for most and they will, more often than not, dispute the diagnosis and the person who suggests it. We can all anticipate that the second wave of push back following the adoption of dosing guidelines will be push back about the concept and prevalence of CS. This will be attacked by the CNP community, AAPManagement, disability attorneys, the opioid-based PHARMA lobby, the lost generation, and all of the cottage industries - including many academic pain programs - whose business models profit by 'medicalizing' CNP in working-aged.
 
Last edited:
CS is not at all unpalatable. Many of us are capable of viewing this not as the black and white either or you insist upon. I realize you will call me names, disparage my motives, and call me greedy. So please feel free to give me your best ad hominem. While doing so, could you please explain why it is not possible for one individual to suffer from noticiceptive/neuropathic peripheral pain AND central sensitization simultaneously?

Unless, of course, it's because your current practice structure does not adequately allow you to profit financially from treating the former.
 
Top