Quantum mechanics and psychiatry

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heartOfWarmth

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I recognise this is a pretty far fetched question but
What do you think of the application of quantum mechanics to developing a cure(fix) for mental diseases?
There has been developing technologies on the application of light towards neurons. Evident in optogenetics and the use of ECT to partially fix depression.
I feel like the application of quantum mechanics could become a threshold to creating a cure for mental diseases. But the problem lies in that only a hand full of people understand quantum mechanics

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Sorry, but no. I don't follow your reasoning for thinking otherwise, and I have some understanding of physics and quantum mechanics.
 
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I used quantum physics to try and push back a federal inspector general. V.A.s are famous for counting pay checks and then counting noses in their hospitals. The problem of course is that they don’t consider things like individual supervision time or didactics or duty hour rules in their concrete world.

“So, when your residents are in supervision are they talking about VA patients or other patients”

I was rather proud of my referencing the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

“The more you drill down to understand exactly what a resident is doing when, the less likely they will be where you actually think they are.
 
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A "new age" view of quantum physics has emerged to the effect that one can overcome anything with their mind. The basis for this view is flimsy, well pretty much hogwash. Several books came out supporting this idea such as Holographic Universe, any of the books on the subject by Deepak Chopra, and some researchers did work on it.

It does turn out a conscious mind can influence the behavior of quantum entities, but from there the new age people apply it as if it's magic, just like Mary Shelly did with electricity in Frankenstein, or Stan Lee and Jack Kirby did with radiation and The Incredible Hulk and Spider-Man. They go as far as to claim that one could, for example, transmute lead into gold, or if a car were about to hit you, you could phase through the car, the only thing preventing you is your lack of belief. Deepak Chopra then capitalized off of this movement selling healing crystals while making outrageous claims that, for example, aging is "learned behavior" and that we can overcome it with our mind. If you look at photos of him today and 15 years ago you see, well you see 15 year of aging on the guy.

As for the research, none it bore any real significant results. There was a study showing that prayer could possibly aid in healing others, but the original study had a small sample size and when it was replicated, it didn't work.

I didn't approach the above data as a quantum-mind atheist. I did it as an agnostic in my 20s (I'm now in my 40s) because I wanted to believe this stuff was real. I could've become a real-life Jedi. Turns out 99% of it is bogus and the 1% of it that isn't is the stuff that's real science and not so magical at all.

Heartofwarmth, I don't know if you believe the above philosophy about quantum physics. Personally I do believe at some point quantum physics may be applicable in some ways to psychiatry, but we are no where close to manipulating it on a useful level. There are theories that I buy into as possibly being real that the mind operates on a level much more sophisticated than the molecular, even atomic level, and that there may even be some quantum interactions going on.

But to make the leap that you can stop aging, heal yourself with your own psychic/quantum energy, well that's as bogus as a guy turning into a green goliath because of gamma radiation. If one were to seriously believe that, I'd be wondering if they had a mental illness.



Now, all said and done, I do agree that patients should be the masters of their own care and try to indulge their own positive attitudes. I'm just not going to tell a patient, however, that they can cure themselves of things such as cancer or even mental illness simply based on mind-power.
 
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Well you guys made me laugh :laugh::laugh:. At least i got my answer who knows maybe Cunnigham's Law actually works,
Of course, i'm being pretty optimistic about the future, who knows maybe in 300 years (if we survive as a species), i would love to see the future of fixing mental disorders, any maybe Quantum Mechanics are actually applied, :=|:-):
 
A reductionist view of the brain can lead to quantum physics mechanistic theory of mental functioning and thus ultimately of psychiatric illness. I don't think such a view has any practical applications at the moment, and I don't buy into all the new age/conscious mind theories.

http://george-eby-research.com/html/quantumphysics.pdf
 
Quantum mechanics has about as much application in optogenetics and ECT as it does in pharmacology of any kind (not just psychopharmacology)... everything that happens in the universe is governed by the interactions between photons and particles with mass. I love how well we understand quantum mechanics, but we have no idea how to manipulate it in a way that would affect the human body. We're not even remotely close. When somebody has a reasonable theory, I'll be the first in line to investigate it... quantum mechanics is my second-favorite kind of science.
 
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There's a large gap between discovering that a conscious mind can influence the activity of quantums to actually being able to manipulate it into a tool for healing the mind.

If we were to tap the use of quantum physics for such a purpose, I think we'd likely be in a far different society even more advanced than what you see on Star Trek and I mean even stuff on the newer Trek, not just the original series where pretty much everything on it is almost now possible minus the transporters and FTL travel. Practical applications of quantum physics would likely benefit our field in the latter end vs other fields because the mind is so tricky. E.g. there'd be Mr. Fusion machines in all homes like in Back to the Future, possibly new types of fuels and engines for space travel.

It'd be hard to even figure out what that type of benefit could be, but I think it'd unlikely be the type of bull Deepak Chopra gave us. Before and after pics of the guy who claims he could use his mind and quantum influence to prevent aging.

ht_deepak_chopra_090927_mn.jpg
 
Well, All of you are very positive on the aspect that Quantum Mechanics may one day apply towards curing the brain. I'm not a big fan of philosophy and religious mindfulness cause i don't really believe in it. However, i think maybe one day we can affect the brain through the application of quantum mechanics to medicine in a quantum levels, which could cure mental disorders
 
There maybe something "quantum" to the placebo effect. However, if there is we don't know just how quantum influence is causing it. Again, there's a leap with my speculation, a leap that is not scientific in anyway other than proposing a weak hypothesis with nothing substantive to back it up or lead to anything that can be studied and replicated.

But maybe someday we will find something that links the two together because if they were connected, it actually could make some sense. I do not mean this sarcastically. Think about it. The conscious mind has been proven to affect quantum behavior, and we don't know what causes the placebo effect. To simply state "it's in your head" when there are real and significant benefits with taking a placebo such as faster healing on wounds, etc, and outside of phenomenon that is highly subjective such as pain, well you get the idea.

But here's where I differ from Chopra: I'm not going to write a book, charging $30 for it, and claiming that you can stop aging.
 
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There maybe something "quantum" to the placebo effect. However, if there is we don't know just how quantum influence is causing it. Again, there's a leap with my speculation, a leap that is not scientific in anyway other than proposing a weak hypothesis with nothing substantive to back it up or lead to anything that can be studied and replicated.

But maybe someday we will find something that links the two together because if they were connected, it actually could make some sense. I do not mean this sarcastically. Think about it. The conscious mind has been proven to affect quantum behavior, and we don't know what causes the placebo effect. To simply state "it's in your head" when there are real and significant benefits with taking a placebo such as faster healing on wounds, etc, and outside of phenomenon that is highly subjective such as pain, well you get the idea.

But here's where I differ from Chopra: I'm not going to write a book, charging $30 for it, and claiming that you can stop aging.
I, for one, love the placebo effect and it does raise questions about the power of expectancies and beliefs. I think we also have to look at DNA for some of the answers to aging as well. To me it seems that there is sort of a biological time-clock that accounts for aging. Why is my metabolism slower now than it was when I was 20? Why does it take longer to heal? Why does a cat or dog age so much quicker than a human? How and why does size of the organism play into that? Also, I would think that DNA wants individuals to die because that ensures the continued evolution of our species. The final question is: how old is Deepak and why will he lose the game regardless of how physically, emotionally, and spiritually healthy he is? I liked the character played by Burgess Meredith in Grumpy Old Men who would laugh and drink another bourbon to toast the death of another doctor he had outlived.
 
To me it seems that there is sort of a biological time-clock that accounts for aging. Why is my metabolism slower now than it was when I was 20? Why does it take longer to heal? Why does a cat or dog age so much quicker than a human?
Telomeres
 
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I, for one, love the placebo effect and it does raise questions about the power of expectancies and beliefs. I think we also have to look at DNA for some of the answers to aging as well. To me it seems that there is sort of a biological time-clock that accounts for aging. Why is my metabolism slower now than it was when I was 20? Why does it take longer to heal? Why does a cat or dog age so much quicker than a human? How and why does size of the organism play into that? Also, I would think that DNA wants individuals to die because that ensures the continued evolution of our species. The final question is: how old is Deepak and why will he lose the game regardless of how physically, emotionally, and spiritually healthy he is? I liked the character played by Burgess Meredith in Grumpy Old Men who would laugh and drink another bourbon to toast the death of another doctor he had outlived.
Yeah...there is a lot of information on this and these questions are adequately answered by evolutionary concepts and info on DNA. I won't pretend to know all the specifics, but the scientific community already has a good grasp on this.
 
Well, All of you are very positive on the aspect that Quantum Mechanics may one day apply towards curing the brain. I'm not a big fan of philosophy and religious mindfulness cause i don't really believe in it. However, i think maybe one day we can affect the brain through the application of quantum mechanics to medicine in a quantum levels, which could cure mental disorders


It's a possibility, but I'd wait to see if quantum computing pans out before putting any hopes in curing any brain disease. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/d-waves-quantum-computer-courts-controversy/

The brain is matter, and thus governed by quantum mechanical principles (which are approximated by classical physical principles). The universe is governed by quantum mechanical principles and thus one can say that quantum mechanics is involved in the placebo effect, etc. This is a far cry from saying that research into quantum mechanics/string theory/relativity/etc will result in any psychiatric/neurologic cures.
 
Telomeres shorten anytime a cell divides. As cell generations get older and older, the telomeres get shorter and shorter. With each shortening they are less likely to divide. It's a reason why an 80 year old heals slower than a 20 year old. It's also a theory as to why we age though there are several several other factors at play such as...
1-when we get older, more DNA errors accumulate
2-our vasculature feeds our body with nutrients and energy, as we get older, our vasculature can't do this as well due to arterio and atherosclerosis
3-our organs on a macro-level accumulate structural weaknesses that cannot be healed, e.g our heart calcifies with each heart beat, which is why the theory goes if you do cardio, your baseline heart rate slows down, helping you to live longer.
4-Several enzymes produced by the body are not done so as well when we get older, several of which likely have strong beneficial properties such as superoxide dismutase, an antioxidant powerhouse
5-Several components of our body, once lost, aren't replaceable or very difficult to replace such as scar tissue, loss of cardiac tissue, neurons, etc
6-our body starts to produce by-products it can't get rid of that aren't beneficial such as amyloid plaques

There's more but you get the point.

A theory with telomeres is that they shorten, thus reducing a cell's ability to divide, because it's actually protective as we get older though we will not heal as fast. The theory goes that with each cell division, more and more genetic errors accumulate because the DNA replication process is not 100% accurate. The more the cell divides, the more likely there will be cancerous cells produced.

Which is why if Wolverine really existed, he'd likely get cancer. Only way to prevent that is a super-immune system, but the more active an immune system is, the more likely it is to attack it's own body--thus cancelling out the likelihood of a real Wolverine, that and that cells reproducing would require tons of nutrients (imagine him having to eat almost non-stop to heal the way he does), and would normally take weeks on the order that he does it.
 
Telomeres shorten anytime a cell divides. As cell generations get older and older, the telomeres get shorter and shorter. With each shortening they are less likely to divide. It's a reason why an 80 year old heals slower than a 20 year old. It's also a theory as to why we age though there are several several other factors at play such as...
1-when we get older, more DNA errors accumulate
2-our vasculature feeds our body with nutrients and energy, as we get older, our vasculature can't do this as well due to arterio and atherosclerosis
3-our organs on a macro-level accumulate structural weaknesses that cannot be healed, e.g our heart calcifies with each heart beat, which is why the theory goes if you do cardio, your baseline heart rate slows down, helping you to live longer.
4-Several enzymes produced by the body are not done so as well when we get older, several of which likely have strong beneficial properties such as superoxide dismutase, an antioxidant powerhouse
5-Several components of our body, once lost, aren't replaceable or very difficult to replace such as scar tissue, loss of cardiac tissue, neurons, etc
6-our body starts to produce by-products it can't get rid of that aren't beneficial such as amyloid plaques

There's more but you get the point.

A theory with telomeres is that they shorten, thus reducing a cell's ability to divide, because it's actually protective as we get older though we will not heal as fast. The theory goes that with each cell division, more and more genetic errors accumulate because the DNA replication process is not 100% accurate. The more the cell divides, the more likely there will be cancerous cells produced.

Which is why if Wolverine really existed, he'd likely get cancer. Only way to prevent that is a super-immune system, but the more active an immune system is, the more likely it is to attack it's own body--thus cancelling out the likelihood of a real Wolverine, that and that cells reproducing would require tons of nutrients (imagine him having to eat almost non-stop to heal the way he does), and would normally take weeks on the order that he does it.
A couple of your points appear to be begging the question. In other words, you are stating that as we get older, certain aspects of the body don't work as well. Some parts do wear out and the brain cannot regenerate new neurons, true, but some of the other points appear to be describing the process as opposed to explaining. As a psychologist, we do that all day long, of course. Obviously, some of the details are more complex than an explanation on a forum like this would permit, but I am really enjoying the discussion. After all, I already learned something new today and since my patients are not showing up today, might as well learn.
 
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Kinda skipped the thread, but IMO the only way quantum mechanics/etc. are going to effect psychiatry in our lifetime would be because of hypothetical breakthroughs in computing power that would therefore allow for improved computer modeling/research in all aspects of medicine.
 
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The genetic code ... Giving its servants life... In return it can travel through space-time... A twisting journey of transformation and self inquiry, discover and realization...

Dust... Wind... Dude...
 
I had not heard of these segments of DNA before. I should have stayed pre-med longer, I guess. ;)
From a quick read of it, looks like there is lots of work to be done in this area. It's more complicated than what Deepak is pitching so harder to sell books on it.
The implication of telomeres in aging is pretty new knowledge. Somebody won the Nobel in medicine in 2009 for discovery of telomerase, which is the enzyme that is responsible for the process that whopper described.
 
I, for one, love the placebo effect and it does raise questions about the power of expectancies and beliefs. I think we also have to look at DNA for some of the answers to aging as well. To me it seems that there is sort of a biological time-clock that accounts for aging. Why is my metabolism slower now than it was when I was 20? Why does it take longer to heal? Why does a cat or dog age so much quicker than a human? How and why does size of the organism play into that? Also, I would think that DNA wants individuals to die because that ensures the continued evolution of our species. The final question is: how old is Deepak and why will he lose the game regardless of how physically, emotionally, and spiritually healthy he is? I liked the character played by Burgess Meredith in Grumpy Old Men who would laugh and drink another bourbon to toast the death of another doctor he had outlived.

Note to self: buy more bourbon.
 
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Deepak Chopra is a physician, actually a nicely credentialed one, that unfortunately became a sham artist exploiting the New Age movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepak_Chopra

While the Wikipedia entry is informative, it doesn't go quite enough into mentioning his non-evidenced based approaches and that many of them have been found to be shams.

While I'm sure expectations have quite an effect on the placebo effect, it's benefits appear to be across the board, even in areas outside of subjective perceptions such as pain and fatigue, but in areas that are very objective and not affected so much by emotional states as far as I know. That is why I speculate (remember, what I'm saying isn't science) that the mind's quantum influence could possibly be affecting the placebo effect. I would never tell that to a patient, nor would I promote it as care until some science actually backed it up.
 
That is why I speculate (remember, what I'm saying isn't science) that the mind's quantum influence could possibly be affecting the placebo effect.
I read your disclaimer, but still the wannabe-physicist in me cringes reading this because it really just doesn't make sense.
 
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