Question about applying to ACGME advanced programs and doing a AOA TRI

[buccsmf1]

So I'm applying allo gas and I'm definitely hoping for a categorical program but I want to prepare for the possibility of an advanced. Here's my situation...

Im married, so moving twice is something I really dont want to do. There are at least 3 AOA programs within driving distance of my medical school that always have unfilled TRI spots. My plan is to apply allo gas, to NOT apply to any allo internship programs, and if I do match advanced, to just scramble into an AOA TRI near my home.

Will this present any problems? Would an advanced allo program care if I did my internship year at an AOA program?

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[cliquesh]

So I'm applying allo gas and I'm definitely hoping for a categorical program but I want to prepare for the possibility of an advanced. Here's my situation...

Im married, so moving twice is something I really dont want to do. There are at least 3 AOA programs within driving distance of my medical school that always have unfilled TRI spots. My plan is to apply allo gas, to NOT apply to any allo internship programs, and if I do match advanced, to just scramble into an AOA TRI near my home.

Will this present any problems? Would an advanced allo program care if I did my internship year at an AOA program?

In the past it was fine. With the failed merger...it might be an issue. The Acgme may now require you to do an Acgme internship to enter an Acgme residency

You really need to get a definitive response from someone official before you follow through with your plan.

 

[brnfabolous]

I will be in ACGME PM&R currently doing AOA TRI right now.
The official paper said by july 2015. so keep that in mind. I will most likey be people at the cusp

 

[bigyihoroi]

My plan was exactly like yours last year. Apply to both categorical and advanced allo gas. If I match categorical, great. If advanced, then I plan to scramble an unfilled AOA TRI spot. However, the AOA match happened 1 month earlier than the ACGME Match. So all those who fail to match AOA and did not apply ACGME will scramble the TRI before you get the chance to do your scramble, since you won't find out until 4 weeks later in March.

Also, a program goes unfilled this year doesn't necessarily means it will go unfill next year. I was planning to scramble chino valley med ctr for TRI if I match advanced allo gas cuz there were 6 out of 7 spots left unfilled in 2012 match. Guess what, this year all spots filled immediately after the AOA match. So you may need to consider the risk of matching into some middle of no where program in Michigan.

Also, if an advanced allo gas program decide to interview and rank you, they expect that some DO's will be doing their intern year at an AOA program. AOA TRI usually give you 6 months of electives. As long as you satisfy the requirement that your advanced allo gas requires you to complete during your intern year (e.g. 1 month of critical care), they will be ok with it. Like the above post said, you will probably be the last group to find this useful. Who knows what will happen in July 2015.

 

[brnfabolous]

WOW your TRI program gives you six months elective???
I guess it happens if you scramble late like me. My program only gives two months of elective

 

[bigyihoroi]

WOW your TRI program gives you six months elective???
I guess it happens if you scramble late like me. My program only gives two months of elective

Na, i matched categorical so i am gonna do that resolution 42. But one of my friends who matched advanced allo radiology is doing a TRI in Pennsylvania with 6 months electives.

 

[JGimpel]

As stated elsewhere, if you were wondering if you could do a DO TRI then transfer into an MD residency afterwards, the chances will be highly unlikely, whether by direct policy or by the adversarial climate created by the AOA's latest fumbling the ball then shooting themselves in the foot so they couldn't retrieve it. Any money spent on TRI apps with this in mind, is sadly wasted, but you can still do a DO residency, if that's OK.

 

[buccsmf1]

Well, I posted this one day before the ACGME released their new statement about not honoring DO internships. What a ****ing nightmare. 3 weeks before ERAS opens and they drop this bomb on us. Looks like I get to drop a couple grand on applying to ACGME internships.

 

[hallowmann]

Will it be a big issue doing a TRI and then applying PGY-1 ACGME? cliquesh said some time back that it would be hard to match well in ACGME after doing a TRI. Anyone have experience doing that?

This is really only important for people planning to practice in PA.

 

[DocEspana]

Will it be a big issue doing a TRI and then applying PGY-1 ACGME? cliquesh said some time back that it would be hard to match well in ACGME after doing a TRI. Anyone have experience doing that?

This is really only important for people planning to practice in PA (and maybe MI).

no, that will be totally fine outside of derm, ophtho, gas, pmr, pathology, neuro, radiology.

 

[hallowmann]

no, that will be totally fine outside of derm, ophtho, gas, pmr, pathology, neuro, radiology.

Wait, so what's the issue with the rest of those (derm and ophtho I get, but why the others - excuse my ignorance)? Is it because of their specialty track requirements for 1st year? I know some DOs that did a TRI and then did path (ACGME-obviously).

 

[DocEspana]

They are all historically (probably exclusively) fields that require a separate PGY-I internship before you enter.

as a side note: one of the things i had the hardest time understanding as a med student was that these fields match you as a 4th year medical student for your PGY-2 year and there is just a big gaping hole in your PGY-1 spot unless you go and find an internship.

 

[Medbear]

Wait, so what's the issue with the rest of those (derm and ophtho I get, but why the others - excuse my ignorance)? Is it because of their specialty track requirements for 1st year? I know some DOs that did a TRI and then did path (ACGME-obviously).

At our program we have PMR interns rotating with us in house as part of their intern year. There isn't from my limited PMR understanding a "separate" intern year. But that may very well be program dependent ?

 

[DocEspana]

At our program we have PMR interns rotating with us in house as part of their intern year. There isn't from my limited PMR understanding a "separate" intern year. But that may very well be program dependent ?

They are either separate interns who already matched to PMR next year, or are actually pgy2s, but are PMR "interns" would be my guess. There could always be an integrated program, but so many of my friend are going into that field id feel like I would have heard of it. But I am not PMR.

 

[evilbooyaa]

At our program we have PMR interns rotating with us in house as part of their intern year. There isn't from my limited PMR understanding a "separate" intern year. But that may very well be program dependent ?

PM&R is a 1 + 3 residency program. You are either seeing PGY-1s who will become first year PM&R residents next year, or PGY-2s who are in their first year of PM&R residency (and thus 'interns').

Best solution would just be to ask them - "Hey, how does PM&R residency work? What year are you?"

 

[Medbear]

They are either separate interns who already matched to PMR next year, or are actually pgy2s, but are PMR "interns" would be my guess. There could always be an integrated program, but so many of my friend are going into that field id feel like I would have heard of it. But I am not PMR.

Asked him today. Apparently this is an integrated program in the sense you match as a PGY 1 yet truly don't start PMR rotations until 2nd year. He did say however that its a rare exception that you don't do a a intern year and apply to PMR as a PGY2 which is the typically path as you all have mentioned.

I fail at typing on an iPad FYI

 

[brnfabolous]

I will be starting PMR next year the program I matched into
Pmr has either catagorical that start pgy1 and advanced position that start pgy2
Pmr has been okay with DO TRI for PGY1 and people start pgy2 at acgme after finishing AoA TRI. I will be the last member for doing this way apparently.
There are not many programs that are catagorical and many of them are middle of no where
Alabama and Rochester and Albany etc etc
(I am very city guy sorry about biased statement )

 

[brnfabolous]

They are either separate interns who already matched to PMR next year, or are actually pgy2s, but are PMR "interns" would be my guess. There could always be an integrated program, but so many of my friend are going into that field id feel like I would have heard of it. But I am not PMR.

Pmr PGY 2 are not called interns

 

[DocEspana]

Pmr PGY 2 are not called interns

I know that. Hahahaha. If you notice I was trying to come up with reasons to explain something that is never heard of before (and as others confirmed, is quite rare). It seemed exceedingly unlikely to me.

 

[Mass Effect]

They are all historically (probably exclusively) fields that require a separate PGY-I internship before you enter.

as a side note: one of the things i had the hardest time understanding as a med student was that these fields match you as a 4th year medical student for your PGY-2 year and there is just a big gaping hole in your PGY-1 spot unless you go and find an internship.

Many neuro programs are now integrated.

 

[DocEspana]

Many neuro programs are now integrated.

That i know, it fell into the historically more than the exclusively. But from what I understand its still a 60-40 split, if not closer.

 

[CHAGEO]

Anyone knows if we can still do a DO TRI then transfer into an advanced MD residency afterwards? I mean they have the merger now !!!

 

[hallowmann]

Anyone knows if we can still do a DO TRI then transfer into an advanced MD residency afterwards? I mean they have the merger now !!!

If I recall correctly, if the program you do the TRI at has pre-accreditation status during the transition (i.e. they submitted the pre-accreditation application), regardless of whether or not they are or will be approved for ACGME accreditation, then your TRI should be accepted by ACGME programs.

 

[DocEspana]

If I recall correctly, if the program you do the TRI at has pre-accreditation status during the transition (i.e. they submitted the pre-accreditation application), regardless of whether or not they are or will be approved for ACGME accreditation, then your TRI should be accepted by ACGME programs.

Correct-o. My old TRI spelled that out. But with that said, even pre merger almost all the Neuro programs accepted a TRI. Almost.

 

[brotherlylove]

Where did you find that information regarding submitting the pre-accreditation app? A PD for PM&R told me this summer that July 2016 is when they are changing it that if you do an AOA TRI year, you can't start as a PGY2 at an ACGME program

From the ACGME site:
All prerequisite post-graduate clinical education required for initial entry or transfer into ACGME-accredited residency programs must be completed in ACGME-accredited residency programs, or in Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC)-accredited or College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC)-accredited residency programs located in Canada. Residency Common Program Requirements programs must receive verification of each applicant’s level of competency in the required clinical field using ACGME or CanMEDS Milestones assessments from the prior training program.

 

[hallowmann]

Where did you find that information regarding submitting the pre-accreditation app? A PD for PM&R told me this summer that July 2016 is when they are changing it that if you do an AOA TRI year, you can't start as a PGY2 at an ACGME program

From the ACGME site:
All prerequisite post-graduate clinical education required for initial entry or transfer into ACGME-accredited residency programs must be completed in ACGME-accredited residency programs, or in Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC)-accredited or College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC)-accredited residency programs located in Canada. Residency Common Program Requirements programs must receive verification of each applicant’s level of competency in the required clinical field using ACGME or CanMEDS Milestones assessments from the prior training program.

Yeah, the Common Program Requirements were initially supposed to be adopted in 2015, then they got postponed to 2016. They will still hold for 2016, but because of the merger, the ACGME and AOA have agreed on what I said above.

The merger was agreed upon in late Feb and that info was described in the FAQs about the merger and in the town hall that the AOA and AACOM had. That PD probably had old info or just wasn't up to date on the merger. That said, if you are applying to a TRI during the transition (i.e. between 2016 and 2020), you should probably verify that the programs you're interested in are applying or have already applied for ACGME accreditation and have "pre-accreditation" status.

 

[brotherlylove]

So if I'm a OMS-IV, and I want to complete an AOA TRI year (thanks to PA laws) and go onto an advanced program, I should be asking on interviews, "Will you be filing an accreditation application?" And what if they say sure -- and somehow paper gets pushed around and never filed? Then I can't start residency after interning? This is all crazy... thanks for the reply though

 

[brotherlylove]

I found this --

If an AOA program applies for ACGME accreditation in July 2015, will that program be considered AOA or ACGME in the spring of 2016?
Once a program applies for ACGME accreditation, which they can do as early as July 1, 2015, that program will automatically be granted pre-accreditation status. This means they have committed to moving towards ACGME accreditation, but have not yet received ACGME accreditation. The pre-accredited programs are reviewed and approved by the AOA until such time as they receive ACGME accreditation. The pre-accredited programs will be treated as ACGME-accredited for purposes of residents’ ability to apply to advanced ACGME residencies and fellowships. However, the exact timeline from application to receiving full accreditation status from the ACGME will vary based on how quickly each program completes the process.


So again, I guess it just comes down to programs getting their applications submitted in order to begin an advanced program?

 

[hallowmann]

So if I'm a OMS-IV, and I want to complete an AOA TRI year (thanks to PA laws) and go onto an advanced program, I should be asking on interviews, "Will you be filing an accreditation application?" And what if they say sure -- and somehow paper gets pushed around and never filed? Then I can't start residency after interning? This is all crazy... thanks for the reply though

Yeah, you're kind of in an awkward situation. Ideally you'd be able to trust the program or push it enough when you're an intern. I mean they really have nothing to lose by applying ASAP, since the merger agreement stipulated that even if AOA programs are initially rejected, they could continuously reapply during the transition period without paying additional app fees.

All that said, it's risky. You could just do an ACGME PGY-1 and apply for Res. 42 just to play it safe. It's not really an ideal situation.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Yeah, you're kind of in an awkward situation. Ideally you'd be able to trust the program or push it enough when you're an intern. I mean they really have nothing to lose by applying ASAP, since the merger agreement stipulated that even if AOA programs are initially rejected, they could continuously reapply during the transition period without paying additional app fees.

All that said, it's risky. You could just do an ACGME PGY-1 and apply for Res. 42 just to play it safe. It's not really an ideal situation.

Isn't PA poopooing resolution 42?

 

[hallowmann]

Isn't PA poopooing resolution 42?

It still works for now. Nothing has happened in like 4 yrs, so I'm guessing the opposition didn't go through.

 

[POtheDO]

So I'm doing an ACGME prelim this year and then an ACGME rads residency next year in PA. I plan on doing res 42 but was curious if anyone else is in a similar situation. I don't know whether to go to a DO conference next year or do that PowerPoint. I just find it pretty odd and slightly embarrassing to do a PowerPoint about DO when I'm the only one in my residency that's a DO.....

 

[ilovemed1]

bump

As an OMS IV can i apply to osteopathic internships and ACGME advanced programs? Can I do the following?

1) Apply to pGY-1 AOA Internships (closer to home)
2) Apply to PGY-1 ACGME internships, PGY-2 advanced, and categorical programs

If I match into an AOA internship will I be pulled out of the acgme internship match but stay in the match for advanced/categorical?

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

bump

As an OMS IV can i apply to osteopathic internships and ACGME advanced programs? Can I do the following?

1) Apply to pGY-1 AOA Internships (closer to home)
2) Apply to PGY-1 ACGME internships, PGY-2 advanced, and categorical programs

If I match into an AOA internship will I be pulled out of the acgme internship match but stay in the match for advanced/categorical?

I think you need to ask your advisor... But my GUESS is that if you match an AOA TRI, you could still match an advanced ACGME position in the ACGME- however unless somebody replies who DID IT, I wouldnt put my eggs in that basket.

 

[hallowmann]

bump

As an OMS IV can i apply to osteopathic internships and ACGME advanced programs? Can I do the following?

1) Apply to pGY-1 AOA Internships (closer to home)
2) Apply to PGY-1 ACGME internships, PGY-2 advanced, and categorical programs

If I match into an AOA internship will I be pulled out of the acgme internship match but stay in the match for advanced/categorical?

Wouldn't you just not rank any of the internships if you match AOA? Not sure if you're actually pulled out just for internships (not sure how the programs communicate), but even if you're not, you can just not rank the internships/categorical programs in the NRMP match if you match a TRI in the NMS match. If I were you, I'd wait until closer to ranking time to make the decision though. You may really love all the categorical programs and decide just to go all in for them.

I think you need to ask your advisor... But my GUESS is that if you match an AOA TRI, you could still match an advanced ACGME position in the ACGME- however unless somebody replies who DID IT, I wouldnt put my eggs in that basket.

I know multiple people who have done exactly this without difficulty, however, times they are a changin. You'll need to make sure that whatever program you go to for a TRI is ACGME pre-accredited. Common requirements are being implemented in 2016, so you need pre-accreditation to have the training recognized by ACGME residency and fellowship programs.