Question for Any VA psychiatrists ?

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While I "like" vets too, the copious amounts of vague depression and anxiety that I see day in and day out, is, well lets face it-not the most interesting psychiatry in the world. Its increasingly clear that psychiatry and psychology services are being relied upon to treat dysfunctional life circumstances.


This is a truism.

As a Vet myself and being in a position to use MI, my psychology staff and the combination of psychotropics with education was most beneficial for me. Plus the system is rewarding the Vets with 100%SC and saying they're unemployable which I believe is the worst thing you can do you a person.

Like Whopper was saying, the system isn't interested in change and will protect itself from turning the top heavy down approach.

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Anyone have experience with compensation and pension work for psychiatrists? Is that insulated from the experiences some of you are having?
 
This is a truism.

As a Vet myself and being in a position to use MI, my psychology staff and the combination of psychotropics with education was most beneficial for me. Plus the system is rewarding the Vets with 100%SC and saying they're unemployable which I believe is the worst thing you can do you a person.

Like Whopper was saying, the system isn't interested in change and will protect itself from turning the top heavy down approach.

Thanks all of you for your inside perspectives. It's extremely helpful to get a feel for the pros and consider.

Bth
 
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Brief story: I was on psych consults in residency at the VA. An internal medicine patient was admitted with hyponatremia; he also had dementia and was likely delirious from the hyponatremia. He was refusing all care because of his confusion. The internist/resident had ordered regular sodium levels to be drawn to follow the correction while infusing with normal saline. I review the chart and see none of the scheduled sodium level blood draws had been obtained since admitting from the ED that morning. The reason: "Patient refused blood draw." I called the internist who had not been informed by anyone that this was happening. Neither the RN or phlebotomist, both of whom knew he was refusing blood draws, told the attending. Ultimately the patient was transferred to the ICU where a PICC could be placed and regular sodium levels checked.

I mention this because I think the nurse and phlebotomist in the story encapsulate a problem with the VA (at least the one where I was working). The "it's more work and that's not my job" mentality. And a patient could have died.

Also, in the outpatient clinic I had to fill out medical record request forms and fax them myself to get prior records from other clinics. The front office staff never did that. Don't you think that is what they should do? Nope, they schedule appointments and that's it. Drove me crazy.

Calling it the post office of hospitals is probably not inaccurate.

And the guy who made badges could only schedule like 4 people to take their pictures per half day. When I got my badge it took literally 15 minutes. So those 4 appointments were max 90 minutes of work in a 4 hour half day. He initially wanted to schedule me a week out but was somehow able to squeeze me in; he probably had to skip lunch that day.

I won't be taking a job at the VA anytime soon.
 
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Also, in the outpatient clinic I had to fill out medical record request forms and fax them myself to get prior records from other clinics. The front office staff never did that. Don't you think that is what they should do? Nope, they schedule appointments and that's it. Drove me crazy.

I have to do this everywhere I work - lucky you!
 
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At the VA, as in all government office jobs, the workers look for ways to NOT work.

I worked in a high-tech corporation before medical school. Employees were either "up or out." You either worked hard at moving you and the company upward, or you're fired. Everyone was efficient, professional, and responsible.

The VA is the opposite.
 
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I remember residency where I was the doctor, the nurse, secretary, social worker and babysitter all at the same time due to massive shortages in staff. It seems the VA was a continuation of that and I did develop resentment from that. With PP, I actually have people to take care of things for me so I can increase my productivity and efficiency.
 
I've been working at a contract CBOC for the last 6 months and, for various reasons, considering a switch to direct VA employment.

It's not all that bad, and there are some pluses to working with the vets.

For me, the 30% pay cut may be difficult, though EDRP and PSLF are both tax-free and unavailable to contractors).

What I will say, is that in the contract clinic, I've had the ability and opportunity to run my practice somewhat similar to how I've worked at a good CMHC in the past. I've used nursing staff to return non-urgent phone calls (ie: when a patient calls and leaves a message that they have a "medication problem, and I want to talk to the doctor" it sure helps to be able to have the nurse call them back & play phone tag all day to find out what the problem actually is, and whether I actually need to talk to them to address it).

With that admin staff, however, my no show rate is also generally less than 10% (pts received reminder calls the day prior to all behavioral appts and spots were filled almost immediately), and they're not marked no-show until 15 minutes into the hour, at which point I am supposed to call them and find out why they no showed (which can often turn into a 15 minute phone call that the veteran tries to use in lieu of a face-to-face visit).
 
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I've been working at a contract CBOC for the last 6 months and, for various reasons, considering a switch to direct VA employment.

It's not all that bad, and there are some pluses to working with the vets.

For me, the 30% pay cut may be difficult, though EDRP and PSLF are both tax-free and unavailable to contractors).

What I will say, is that in the contract clinic, I've had the ability and opportunity to run my practice somewhat similar to how I've worked at a good CMHC in the past. I've used nursing staff to return non-urgent phone calls (ie: when a patient calls and leaves a message that they have a "medication problem, and I want to talk to the doctor" it sure helps to be able to have the nurse call them back & play phone tag all day to find out what the problem actually is, and whether I actually need to talk to them to address it).

With that admin staff, however, my no show rate is also generally less than 10% (pts received reminder calls the day prior to all behavioral appts and spots were filled almost immediately), and they're not marked no-show until 15 minutes into the hour, at which point I am supposed to call them and find out why they no showed (which can often turn into a 15 minute phone call that the veteran tries to use in lieu of a face-to-face visit).
Thanks.
 
I remember residency where I was the doctor, the nurse, secretary, social worker and babysitter all at the same time due to massive shortages in staff. It seems the VA was a continuation of that and I did develop resentment from that. With PP, I actually have people to take care of things for me so I can increase my productivity and efficiency.

of course in pp you can always find people to do these things for you.....the downside is that these people cost money, and will cut into any profits.
 
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At the VA, as in all government office jobs, the workers look for ways to NOT work.

I worked in a high-tech corporation before medical school. Employees were either "up or out." You either worked hard at moving you and the company upward, or you're fired. Everyone was efficient, professional, and responsible.

The VA is the opposite.
That may be true at some VA's, but not where I work. I strongly resent your implication that all government workers are lazy, because it's just not true for me or my colleagues and support staff. We provide excellent, low cost, and often free care for our Veterans that would otherwise be shut out of the private system with no insurance. I'm damn proud of the work we do for patients here in my department. We work extra hard now to improve care every day, especially now because there have been troubles at a couple of other VA hospitals.
Shut the hell up with your generalizations, because you're insulting a lot of fine doctors.
 
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I remember residency where I was the doctor, the nurse, secretary, social worker and babysitter all at the same time due to massive shortages in staff. It seems the VA was a continuation of that and I did develop resentment from that. With PP, I actually have people to take care of things for me so I can increase my productivity and efficiency.
I have 100 social workers in my department. I have access to 5 Phd psychologists. Five nurses available to work with my patients every day, another couple go out into the community to see patient's that need home visits (MHICM team, it's like an ACT team.)
I don't have to babysit anybody (though I sometimes do, when I have a spare moment and I can get it done right now and free up staff for other patients).
 
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That may be true at some VA's, but not where I work. I strongly resent your implication that all government workers are lazy, because it's just not true for me or my colleagues and support staff. We provide excellent, low cost, and often free care for our Veterans that would otherwise be shut out of the private system with no insurance. I'm damn proud of the work we do for patients here in my department. We work extra hard now to improve care every day, especially now because there have been troubles at a couple of other VA hospitals.
Shut the hell up with your generalizations, because you're insulting a lot of fine doctors.

Ah! I meant government office staff, not the doctors. I never disrespect doctors. Sorry I did not make myself clear. That was my mistake. On my VA rotations the doctors were amazing - super super knowledgeable. The psychiatrists were reading the neurologists CT and MRI scans, doing thorough neuropsych workups, quoting published articles, teaching residents, etc. They were impressive and hard working.

I was generalizing about office staff - the doctors I worked with at the VA weren't thrilled at the pace of the office staff, so I thought of all people you would understand this sentiment. Anyhow, mea culpa.
 
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I have 100 social workers in my department. I have access to 5 Phd psychologists. Five nurses available to work with my patients every day, another couple go out into the community to see patient's that need home visits (MHICM team, it's like an ACT team.)
I don't have to babysit anybody (though I sometimes do, when I have a spare moment and I can get it done right now and free up staff for other patients).

The last VA I worked at only had 2 MHICM team members for around 15,000 Vets.

...and then I read about the Denver VA having a 'secret' waiting list where Vets were being transferred onto the EWL by a support staff member. Reading between the lines, the list was a creation because they're significantly understaffed for nursing, clinicians and other support people.

You've got a good gig with good support! I always dreamed about working in a department that was sufficiently staffed and had appropriate resources.
 
Bumping this thread. I've been at VA for 16 months and just now finally got accepted into EDRP program. Note: EDRP was not initially posted with my position, but I negotiated for it to be included before accepting position and made sure it was included in writing on my offer letter. I was awarded $23k annually for 5 years. I currently have $107,000 in student loan debt and will have to pay ~$1,000 out of pocket toward my loans if stay 5 years. I am in an attractive location. I have to pay the $23k myself annually and then VA will reimburse me at the end of my service period tax free (the service period starts the day you are officially accepted and renews annually for 5 years). You can do the $23k as a lump sum payment annually or spread over monthly payments. If you leave before 5 years, you don't have to pay anything back. If you do want to leave, makes sense pay lump sum at beginning of annual pay period and they will reimburse you the full amount, even if you don't stay for the full year. Let me know if other questions.
 
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Bumping this thread. I've been at VA for 16 months and just now finally got accepted into EDRP program. Note: EDRP was not initially posted with my position, but I negotiated for it to be included before accepting position and made sure it was included in writing on my offer letter. I was awarded $23k annually for 5 years. I currently have $107,000 in student loan debt and will have to pay ~$1,000 out of pocket toward my loans if stay 5 years. I am in an attractive location. I have to pay the $23k myself annually and then VA will reimburse me at the end of my service period tax free (the service period starts the day you are officially accepted and renews annually for 5 years). You can do the $23k as a lump sum payment annually or spread over monthly payments. If you leave before 5 years, you don't have to pay anything back. If you do want to leave, makes sense pay lump sum at beginning of annual pay period and they will reimburse you the full amount, even if you don't stay for the full year. Let me know if other questions.
Congrats!
So to be clear, you are paying a lump sum of $23,000 to your student loan, then near the end of the VA fiscal year in August or September (which here was just last week) you submit proof to HR you made at least $23k in payments to your med school loans, and then they place $23,000 of matching EDRP money in your personal bank account, and you have agreed to then pay your lender with that money. This way you pay less interest on your loans over the year.

(EDRP is a dollar for dollar matching program, you CANNOT get more money than you pay to your loans first. You cannot get any EDRP money without making payments first.)

Otherwise, you can do what I do. I have been approved for the maximum EDRP amount of $24,000 so I pay $2,000 a month to my med school student loans, and at the end of the fiscal year I get a matching $24,000 deposited into my account that I have agreed to pay to my lender. In fact, my first EDRP matching dispersement has just arrived to my VA per HR and I'm waiting for it to be deposited into my account by our fiscal department, probably at the same time as my next pay check. The EDRP matching money I'm getting IS tax free, which I will have to document to the IRS come tax time, which I will get when thhe VA sends out W-2s and other tax forms to employees. My $24k in payments over the last year are NOT tax free, and I earn too much to get much of a break on my federal taxes paying student loan interest.

I have the link to the EDRP handbook when I get to my computer if somebody needs it. There are a lot of little rules, like if you make a payment just one day after your yearly "service period" that you choose when you first sign up it doesn't count, and wont be matched, but it can roll over to the next year, but you can never exceed the total yearly amount approved for that yearly service period.
 
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These posts are good, mainly because anyone signing up should be aware of how long it takes to #1) get approved, and #2) actually get cash out of the deal.
The math of having to wait 1 year (or greater) before getting any repayments also should be taken into account with interest.

e.g. - you owe $100k. At 6% interest, your loans will have accrued $9k interest (actually slightly less because your balance will be dropping) in the 18 months between the time you started waiting and time you get your first check. That's 39% of your entire first check going to interest you accrued while waiting for it.

The idea of making an entire years payment for the second (or 3rd/4th/5th) service period and then leaving is something I hadn't thought of before. Anybody confirm that this works?
 
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You can pay a lump sum for you yearly service period up front. You still won't get your matching EDRP money until you have worked the whole year, the hand book specifically says that. This program is specifically designed to retain physicians firstly, by assisting with medical school student loan debt.
 
Thank you everyone for the detailed information. I'm at the VA BHIP for all of my 3rd year and I'm thinking of asking my current attendings with some of the specifics mentioned here. The PSLF and EDRP information was very useful.
 
Just want to toss out that you may be eligible for EDRP and not receive it. There is a finite amount budged per VISN (VA region) and they decide how to divide it up. At some places, only clinicians based at CBOCs (regional clinics, not main hospitals) are eligible. Caveat emptor, if the loan repayment is a deal killer.
 
I'm glad you brought this up. I've been watching the evolution of this and I wouldn't see this being expanded upon for quite a bit of time, despite the public verbalizing that they need more psychiatrists. In all, let's see what happens with the Senate and getting a signature. I'd also be interested in hearing what the final amount will be agreed upon by the law makers for loan repayment, I heard 120k? We'll see what happens I guess...

Aw, hell...the VA don't need no steenkin' providers/clinicians (like psychiatrists and psychologists) to address the mental health treatment needs of veterans.

Nope, what they really need is more 'expertologists' (Ex.P. degrees) with bachelor's (or associates) degrees in a business or social science area who are all up to date on the newest fashionable quality-improvement-management-flowchart-PowerPoint presentation - Excel spreadsheet calculatin' maneuvers so they can command the 'systems redesign' and Quality Hyperdrive Projects. You know, LEAN Six Sigma black belt Jedi ninjas and such. They'll just survey the hell out of everyone and come up with a statistical solution to suicide. No problem.

Screw hiring providers, they're too expensive, fussy, and independent-minded.
 
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Aw, hell...the VA don't need no steenkin' providers/clinicians (like psychiatrists and psychologists) to address the mental health treatment needs of veterans.

Nope, what they really need is more 'expertologists' (Ex.P. degrees) with bachelor's (or associates) degrees in a business or social science area who are all up to date on the newest fashionable quality-improvement-management-flowchart-PowerPoint presentation - Excel spreadsheet calculatin' maneuvers so they can command the 'systems redesign' and Quality Hyperdrive Projects. You know, LEAN Six Sigma black belt Jedi ninjas and such. They'll just survey the hell out of everyone and come up with a statistical solution to suicide. No problem.

Screw hiring providers, they're too expensive, fussy, and independent-minded.

New approach: throw enough clinical reminders and access to care mandates at a problem, and it'll just disappear (that, or the providers will).
 
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exactly...

let's mandate and policy/procedure away an intractable, complexly- (and multiply-determined behavior (suicide) that has been part of the human condition since the dawn of humanity.

It's the VA (and Congressonal) Way.

I eagerly await the soon to be realized "War on Suicide" sponsored by Lockheed-Martin on behalf of the Federal government. If only we had realized sooner that if we'd just passed enough laws or paid for enough service dogs, we could end suicide forever. Who could have known it would be this simple?
New approach: throw enough clinical reminders and access to care mandates at a problem, and it'll just disappear (that, or the providers will).
 
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Are you sure about not being able to pay lump sum 23k at beginning of service period (i.e. August) then quit VA October and receive full amount for that year? I specifically asked my HR rep about this and she stated "if you leave the VA during the middle of your service period, any money you have put towards your loans during that time will be disbursed to you"
 
Are you sure about not being able to pay lump sum 23k at beginning of service period (i.e. August) then quit VA October and receive full amount for that year? I specifically asked my HR rep about this and she stated "if you leave the VA during the middle of your service period, any money you have put towards your loans during that time will be disbursed to you"

Meaning, you get reimbursed only what you've worked.
 
Thank you everyone for the detailed information. I'm at the VA BHIP for all of my 3rd year and I'm thinking of asking my current attendings with some of the specifics mentioned here. The PSLF and EDRP information was very useful.

Does anyone know if enrollment in EDRP would invalidate qualifying payments made towards PSLF?

From what I've read from the PSLF program's website faq's, the Dept of Defense loan repayment program does not invalidate PSLF qualifying payments. The VA EDRP rep, and Fedloan PSLF rep reported the same regarding EDRP. I was curious if anyone else is in the same boat.
 
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The last VA I worked at only had 2 MHICM team members for around 15,000 Vets.

...and then I read about the Denver VA having a 'secret' waiting list where Vets were being transferred onto the EWL by a support staff member. Reading between the lines, the list was a creation because they're significantly understaffed for nursing, clinicians and other support people.

You've got a good gig with good support! I always dreamed about working in a department that was sufficiently staffed and had appropriate resources.

My understanding of the Denver VA situation is that the "waiting list" was for groups and the Veterans were receiving individual therapy (hence why we are no longer to have group lists unless the patient is actually scheduled for a group start date). Am I not aware of the full situation?
 
Out of curiosity, what are the patient populations at VA hospitals generally like? I'm guessing it is largely older men, but aren't family members seen there as well? What percentage of psych patients end up being women or children?
 
About 1/3 of my VA outpatient clinic is women, and probably 1 to 3 percent are spouses of veterans who are 100 percent service connected. We increasingly see more women and men under 40 due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Probably 1/3 of my patients are under 40.
 
About 1/3 of my VA outpatient clinic is women, and probably 1 to 3 percent are spouses of veterans who are 100 percent service connected. We increasingly see more women and men under 40 due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Probably 1/3 of my patients are under 40.

Oh okay, I didn't realize, thanks for the insight. How do those ratios compare to inpatient psych ratios?

Also curious, in non-VA psych are patient populations usually about 50/50?

I haven't had a lot of exposure to psychiatry at this point but assumed VA hospitals mostly treated elderly men and their families (after reading somewhere that only about 10 percent of veterans are women) and non-VA psych inpatient/outpatient was probably a larger female population, so it's nice knowing more accurate generalities.
 
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Inpatient here reflects my outpatient clinic. Yes, non VA is more 50/50 male to female ratio than VA.

Different regions may have a bit different mix. My region is heavily blue collar with a strong military tradition so we may see more women veterans here than say, San Francisco.

What you see in the VA now is what you see in the actual military, no surprises there. Just as the military is increasingly more diverse so are the younger patients at the VA. Our Korean War veterans are passing away, most being in their late 80s, now the biggest group is Vietnam era males. We of course have a large number of younger veterans from the conflicts in the middle east. We've basically been at war in the middle east for 17 years ( though much less now), and that's not counting Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
 
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Inpatient here reflects my outpatient clinic. Yes, non VA is more 50/50 male to female ratio than VA.

Different regions may have a bit different mix. My region is heavily blue collar with a strong military tradition so we may see more women veterans here than say, San Francisco.

What you see in the VA now is what you see in the actual military, no surprises there. Just as the military is increasingly more diverse so are the younger patients at the VA. Our Korean War veterans are passing away, most being in their late 80s, now the biggest group is Vietnam era males. We of course have a large number of younger veterans from the conflicts in the middle east. We've basically been at war in the middle east for 17 years ( though much less now), and that's not counting Desert Shield/Desert Storm.

That was informative, thank you!
 
For me it's about half VN era vets, and half OEF/IEF. Those that don't fall within one of those groups are either my really old Korea/WWII guys or the in-between guys who are now in their 50s (If I get a guy aged 50-60 it usually means it's a subs abuse case). I think I have less than 10 actual Desert Storm vets on my caseload.

My clinic is more than 90% male though.
 
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Additionally, many of the larger VAs have women's clinics. So, if you wanted a 100% case load of female veterans, there are opportunities for such. Caveat though, they will vary quite a bit. At my last VA, the psychiatry population in the specialty clinic was mostly Cluster B axis II, while most women with axis I were seen in the general mental health clinic.
 
Additionally, many of the larger VAs have women's clinics. So, if you wanted a 100% case load of female veterans, there are opportunities for such. Caveat though, they will vary quite a bit. At my last VA, the psychiatry population in the specialty clinic was mostly Cluster B axis II, while most women with axis I were seen in the general mental health clinic.

Yeah, the presence of a women's clinic here is a likely contributor to why I see so few of them. Though the suffling of the cluster B patients to women's clinics is hardly unique to the VA.
 
why are all the VA psych hospitals I have worked at the BIGGEST documentation and scheduling nazis in the world?
 
why are all the VA psych hospitals I have worked at the BIGGEST documentation and scheduling nazis in the world?
Because it’s the final common pathway of bureaucracy. And the documentation is a system-wide thing.
 
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Oh okay, I didn't realize, thanks for the insight. How do those ratios compare to inpatient psych ratios?

Also curious, in non-VA psych are patient populations usually about 50/50?

I haven't had a lot of exposure to psychiatry at this point but assumed VA hospitals mostly treated elderly men and their families (after reading somewhere that only about 10 percent of veterans are women) and non-VA psych inpatient/outpatient was probably a larger female population, so it's nice knowing more accurate generalities.

Have only done inpt through my residency, but our unit is over 95% men and I've gone an entire month without seeing a single female on the unit before. I've also think I've only seen 1 female over 60 on the psych unit, so the women are definitely a younger population at my hospital. In terms of age of males, I'd say about 1/3 are younger than 50 and we see a disproportionately high amount of substance abuse compared to other psych facilities I've worked at.

Our facility also only takes veterans to the inpt psych or medical floors. Family members/kids of vets are ineligible for treatment where I work. Idk if it's different on the outpt side, but a common sentiment is "I wish my wife could be treated here too".
 
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