Question regarding chances

[forsparta]

Hey Everyone,

I am interested in neurology and had a few questions regarding my chances - haven't done my neuro rotation but the goal is to honor it (isn't everyones?)

Step one: 220
All P year 1/2 (P/F school)
Top 25 medical school
20+ research papers (mix of reviews, clinical, basic science); 2 in neurology (no first author)

Is there any realistic shot for me to end up at a program like MGH, Columbia, Penn, Hopkins? If not, what about programs like MSSM, NYU, Cornell, Yale?

What can I do at this point to make myself a better applicant? More research? Try and win some SIGN (interest group in neuro) awards?

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[hoopie]

I don't have any great insight into this, but my thoughts.

My sense is your step one may be a little low for the elite programs that you mentioned. I don't know what kind of cutoffs they have for interviewing, maybe someone else may have more knowledge on that.

As I see it, you have two things that stand out. Your med school and your research. Given that you already have that much research experience, including some in neuro, I probably wouldn't focus on that as far as strengthening your application goes. Like you said, aim to get honors on your neuro rotation, and really do as well as possible during your third year in general. Get strong letters of recommendstion. Since your step one is a bit low, really focus on bringing it up on step two. Stuff like SIGN and other extra curriculars or whatever won't hurt but I tend to think that stuff is kind of fluff that won't help you much either.

I think if you can accomplish those things, you might have a shot at a top program, especially if you interview very well. For sure you should be able to match somewhere real solid.

 

[Yoyomama88]

I agree. I think the OP will be competitive at most places, coming from a prestigious med school and having tons of research. I don't think the STEP score will keep you out of anywhere because the rest of the application will get you in the door.

 

[TUGM]

You'll most likely get interviews from top places based on your research status and your pedigree. Your Step 1 shouldn't limit you too much, especially if you decide to take Step 2 a bit early, and do a bit better on that. As far as ending up at one of these "top places" - well, that depends on how you convey yourself at your interviews.

 

[Thama]

My profile wasn't all that different from yours- higher step 1 but less pubs. I was invited to every "big-name" program I applied to except 1 and matched at the one I wanted. Do well in your neuro rotations and earn some good letters and I think you'll have a great shot.

As for bettering your chances, you still have your neuro rotation and step 2 ahead of you, which will be far more important than adding more research (which is already impressive and will certainly already catch a PD's eye) or some random resume-padding award.

My other piece of advice: don't limit yourself to the northeast. My experience was that the ratio of program quality to program competitiveness was lower there than anywhere in the nation- there are programs elsewhere that are every bit as good as the top NE programs but not as cutthroat difficult to get into, and you'll generally get to work with nicer, friendlier people elsewhere as well. Check out the midwest and southeast (I was particularly impressed with some of the midwest programs), and there are obviously some can't-miss programs on the west coast if you can swing the airfare.

 

[forsparta]

I don't have any great insight into this, but my thoughts.

My sense is your step one may be a little low for the elite programs that you mentioned. I don't know what kind of cutoffs they have for interviewing, maybe someone else may have more knowledge on that.

As I see it, you have two things that stand out. Your med school and your research. Given that you already have that much research experience, including some in neuro, I probably wouldn't focus on that as far as strengthening your application goes. Like you said, aim to get honors on your neuro rotation, and really do as well as possible during your third year in general. Get strong letters of recommendstion. Since your step one is a bit low, really focus on bringing it up on step two. Stuff like SIGN and other extra curriculars or whatever won't hurt but I tend to think that stuff is kind of fluff that won't help you much either.

I think if you can accomplish those things, you might have a shot at a top program, especially if you interview very well. For sure you should be able to match somewhere real solid.

I agree. I think the OP will be competitive at most places, coming from a prestigious med school and having tons of research. I don't think the STEP score will keep you out of anywhere because the rest of the application will get you in the door.

It sucks because I tried a lot on for Step one and lost a family member days before my test. It won't excuse a bad performance but it is what it is. My dream school would be either MGH/JHU/Columbia as my Fiance can transfer her work between those cities easily. New Haven is also a possibility.

What kind of step 2 score would I need to maximize my chances for one of those programs to help 'make up' for my low Step 1?

You'll most likely get interviews from top places based on your research status and your pedigree. Your Step 1 shouldn't limit you too much, especially if you decide to take Step 2 a bit early, and do a bit better on that. As far as ending up at one of these "top places" - well, that depends on how you convey yourself at your interviews.

I am currently at Mayo Medical School, which, according to USNews has the #2 Neurology program. Are there any big names here that are known around the country? Maybe I can start working with them with the hopes of getting a strong letter of recommendation by the end of year three?

My profile wasn't all that different from yours- higher step 1 but less pubs. I was invited to every "big-name" program I applied to except 1 and matched at the one I wanted. Do well in your neuro rotations and earn some good letters and I think you'll have a great shot.

As for bettering your chances, you still have your neuro rotation and step 2 ahead of you, which will be far more important than adding more research (which is already impressive and will certainly already catch a PD's eye) or some random resume-padding award.

My other piece of advice: don't limit yourself to the northeast. My experience was that the ratio of program quality to program competitiveness was lower there than anywhere in the nation- there are programs elsewhere that are every bit as good as the top NE programs but not as cutthroat difficult to get into, and you'll generally get to work with nicer, friendlier people elsewhere as well. Check out the midwest and southeast (I was particularly impressed with some of the midwest programs), and there are obviously some can't-miss programs on the west coast if you can swing the airfare.

The reason I want NE is because of Fiance but maybe she will be open to something else 2 years from now?

 

[TUGM]

forsparta,

First of all, I am so sorry for your loss. Medical school is tough, and such experiences can only make things more difficult. Though Step 1 is important, it is by no means ultimate, especially in the field of Neurology. My score was similar to yours, but due to other parts of my application, I interviewed at several top institutions and finally matched into my number one. Doing better on Step 2 will help. I would try to shoot for a 230+. Most program directors look for a 10 point increase between step scores, from what I heard during my own process.

Being at Mayo will definitely help, as far as pedigree goes. Though it may not be fair to those students who are from lesser known places, it's the way things work. Point being, you're at an institution with an excellent reputation, and this is good for you. MGH, Columbia, JHU, and Yale (you mentioned New Haven) are extremely competitive programs that value research. With your number of publications, assuming they are of decent caliber, I would be surprised if you didn't get some consideration. I would let these programs in the cities you are strongly looking at your reasons behind wanting to be in that location. Because you have a fiancé who is working in NE, that should marginally add some weight to your application at some of these places.

As far as obtaining LoRs, I would definitely get one from the chairman of your neurology department, one from your program director, and letters from any other neurology faculty or IM faculty that you can say know you on a deeper level. Letters are more valuable if they are more personal, and try to avoid generic letters even if they come from strong faculty. Yes, I say IM because the day-to-day work of neurology is similar in structure to that of an internist. My school lacked a neurology department during my formative years due to political issues. My only neurology letter was from a PP neurointerventionalist. The others were from internists, and one was from a PhD researcher for whom I worked.

I would STRONGLY suggest doing some away rotations at MGH, Columbia, JHU, etc. and working hard to impress the faculty. You can potentially use this opportunity to get a letter of recommendation from the well-known faculty from these places.

Finally, keep in mind that everyone dreams of going to "TOP 5" programs, but the reality is that research funding aside, most neurology programs will train you to be an excellent clinician. The best part about the northeast is that it is very dense in terms of academic institutions, so you should hopefully be able to match somewhere!

Sorry for the long post, but I hope this helps at least a little.

 

[TUGM]

FYI, my stats were similar to yours, with much less research. I interviewed at many excellent institutions - I made very clear that I was interested in stroke/NCC/and intervention and was invited to every high-volume IR program with a strong neurology presence, and matched at my dream program, near the beach .

Trust me, your application already looks better than mine, and I would be very surprised if you didn't match somewhere you really wanted to go to.

 

[Thama]

Totally understandable to want a region for family reasons: other great programs in that vicinity you should look at would include Cornell (my personal favorite in that part of the country), BIDMC and Penn. If you're looking at Hopkins then UVa isn't that much farther south and is fantastic as well.

 

[forsparta]

forsparta,

First of all, I am so sorry for your loss. Medical school is tough, and such experiences can only make things more difficult. Though Step 1 is important, it is by no means ultimate, especially in the field of Neurology. My score was similar to yours, but due to other parts of my application, I interviewed at several top institutions and finally matched into my number one. Doing better on Step 2 will help. I would try to shoot for a 230+. Most program directors look for a 10 point increase between step scores, from what I heard during my own process.

Being at Mayo will definitely help, as far as pedigree goes. Though it may not be fair to those students who are from lesser known places, it's the way things work. Point being, you're at an institution with an excellent reputation, and this is good for you. MGH, Columbia, JHU, and Yale (you mentioned New Haven) are extremely competitive programs that value research. With your number of publications, assuming they are of decent caliber, I would be surprised if you didn't get some consideration. I would let these programs in the cities you are strongly looking at your reasons behind wanting to be in that location. Because you have a fiancé who is working in NE, that should marginally add some weight to your application at some of these places.

As far as obtaining LoRs, I would definitely get one from the chairman of your neurology department, one from your program director, and letters from any other neurology faculty or IM faculty that you can say know you on a deeper level. Letters are more valuable if they are more personal, and try to avoid generic letters even if they come from strong faculty. Yes, I say IM because the day-to-day work of neurology is similar in structure to that of an internist. My school lacked a neurology department during my formative years due to political issues. My only neurology letter was from a PP neurointerventionalist. The others were from internists, and one was from a PhD researcher for whom I worked.

I would STRONGLY suggest doing some away rotations at MGH, Columbia, JHU, etc. and working hard to impress the faculty. You can potentially use this opportunity to get a letter of recommendation from the well-known faculty from these places.

Finally, keep in mind that everyone dreams of going to "TOP 5" programs, but the reality is that research funding aside, most neurology programs will train you to be an excellent clinician. The best part about the northeast is that it is very dense in terms of academic institutions, so you should hopefully be able to match somewhere!

Sorry for the long post, but I hope this helps at least a little.

Thank you for your words. Should I try and do away rotations at each of those places? I will do my best to clear as high a score as possible on Step 2 and get the best grades I can from here on out.

Totally understandable to want a region for family reasons: other great programs in that vicinity you should look at would include Cornell (my personal favorite in that part of the country), BIDMC and Penn. If you're looking at Hopkins then UVa isn't that much farther south and is fantastic as well.

I will definitely add those to the list. I think I will be applying broadly as is.


Lastly, here at Mayo during year 3 we have a 3 month research rotation which we can do anywhere. Would it help my chances by working at a place like Hopkins or Columbia for those three months at matching at that specific institution? Or should I just do it at Mayo?

Thank you!

 

[forsparta]

Thank you for your words. Should I try and do away rotations at each of those places?


Lastly, here at Mayo during year 3 we have a 3 month research rotation which we can do anywhere. Would it help my chances by working at a place like Hopkins or Columbia for those three months at matching at that specific institution? Or should I just do it at Mayo?

Thank you!

Bump - can anyone comment about the last part?

 

[TUGM]

If you are interested in going to a specific institution for residency, it may be worthwhile for you to do your research months there. But note that you will need to be on your best behavior, as some inadvertently make a poor impression and kill their chances during such "auditions."

Getting good LORs from people at Mayo is all you really need, but you may enjoy the experience of being elsewhere.

 

[typhoonegator]

3 months is not a long time at all. Especially if you were going to show up at an away institution and try to get something done. It would really just be something on the order of a summer student project, and then you'd be gone. I suppose if you came and spent three months in my lab it would be nice to put a name with the face, but I feel like it would be more productive for you to spend those three months at your home institution starting up a project that you could continue into year 4.

 

[forsparta]

If you are interested in going to a specific institution for residency, it may be worthwhile for you to do your research months there. But note that you will need to be on your best behavior, as some inadvertently make a poor impression and kill their chances during such "auditions."

Getting good LORs from people at Mayo is all you really need, but you may enjoy the experience of being elsewhere.

I am working with two staff neurologists at Mayo and by the end of this year I will have 2 2-3 author papers in neuro along with 2 case reports and 1 major project in the making. I will also go crazy to make sure my Step 2 is about 240.

3 months is not a long time at all. Especially if you were going to show up at an away institution and try to get something done. It would really just be something on the order of a summer student project, and then you'd be gone. I suppose if you came and spent three months in my lab it would be nice to put a name with the face, but I feel like it would be more productive for you to spend those three months at your home institution starting up a project that you could continue into year 4.

Ok. I just wanted to know if it could possibly make up for my low Step one score. I know it won't be a long time.

 

[TUGM]

I am working with two staff neurologists at Mayo and by the end of this year I will have 2 2-3 author papers in neuro along with 2 case reports and 1 major project in the making. I will also go crazy to make sure my Step 2 is about 240.



Ok. I just wanted to know if it could possibly make up for my low Step one score. I know it won't be a long time.

To be honest, even extracurricular activities, such as being a member of your school SIGN (I mean how hard is it to join a medical student society, right?) will make you look great - given that you're actually contributing somehow. I mean don't label yourself as an "officer" in the "club" and never go to a meeting. I mean truly participate, such as being President, educating junior students to the best of your ability, and trying to inspire others' interest in neurology, can do wonders in making up for a lower Step 1. Just be excited about it.

Research can help a lot too, of course, but I think very few students actually do any sort of productive or compelling research. Just recently started residency, and I'm already flabbergasted by the level of research being done at some of these institutions. And some of them being run by mid-level residents! Program directors are exposed to THAT level. So if you like research, do 3 months of research. If you want to organize a school-wide Neuro-bowl-a-thon-vaganza and approach it from that angle, that would help too.

 

[medstudent7860]

I had a question about my chances as well. I go to an unranked US med school, where my gpa is ~3.5 and my Step 1 score is a 247. I only have one research experience, which was not published, just presented at my school. (I am hoping to do more research, though.) I really want to match in Neurology somewhere in Chicago or in a nearby area because I want to be near my family, so that limits me in terms of the number of programs that I can apply to. What do you guys think of my chances, and how do you think that I can improve my chances?

 

[Thama]

I had a question about my chances as well. I go to an unranked US med school, where my gpa is ~3.5 and my Step 1 score is a 247. I only have one research experience, which was not published, just presented at my school. (I am hoping to do more research, though.) I really want to match in Neurology somewhere in Chicago or in a nearby area because I want to be near my family, so that limits me in terms of the number of programs that I can apply to. What do you guys think of my chances, and how do you think that I can improve my chances?

The 3 "name" Chicago programs (NW/Rush/UofC) didn't seem to be super competitive from my experience. Loyola and UIC are supposedly much less so. Your numbers sound great, research would be a nice bonus but not a necessity if your goal is just to get into a neuro program in Chicago. Regardless I would try to interview at non-Chicago places too as there are only 5 programs there. Michigan, Wisconsin and Indiana aren't that far, and even Mayo and Wash U are reasonable drives to visit family regularly.

 

[forsparta]

The 3 "name" Chicago programs (NW/Rush/UofC) didn't seem to be super competitive from my experience. Loyola and UIC are supposedly much less so. Your numbers sound great, research would be a nice bonus but not a necessity if your goal is just to get into a neuro program in Chicago. Regardless I would try to interview at non-Chicago places too as there are only 5 programs there. Michigan, Wisconsin and Indiana aren't that far, and even Mayo and Wash U are reasonable drives to visit family regularly.

Based off of this, would I too have a decent shot at matching at one of the 'name' programs? I am skewed in the opposite way, low numbers and good research ahaha

 

[TUGM]

Honestly, it can go either way. If you have strong interest in being in Chicago, I would let Chicago programs know that early. I'm from the midwest, and interviewed at some other top programs, but was completely shut out of Chicago last interview season (and California). No word from any of the 5. Big cities like SF, LA, Chicago, Dallas, NYC, etc are always going to be competitive in the sense that everyone wants to end up there. So if you REALLY want to end up there, let it be known to PDs. As Thama said, also consider applying to someone of the other close-by programs. UMich, MCW, Mayo, WashU, and Indiana are all pretty great places to train.