Now, to answer some actual questions as best I can:
Firstly,
@singmed15:
Your original series of questions that opened this thread #1-3 are answered in the Brisbane guide that is distributed by OMSA to all incoming students. There is a
website, but it is not so great (funny how medical students have so little time to make really slick websites...). However there is a PDF that you can request from MedEdPath if you'd like.
#5 and #6: I cannot comment on the job market in Aus as I have no idea.
#4: As has been pointed out I didn't really attend lecture. However, that doesn't mean I don't know what the lectures were like nor what material was covered. After all most of them were made as podcasts or VOPPs with nearly all of them available as lecture slides, and I did cover all that material and listen to every single lecture available by podcast and VOPP that was available.
That said, the curriculum
has changed twice since I went through it so not only can I not comment adequately, but neither can Phloston or anyone else who is not currently a student.
That said, what Phloston commented about certainly
was true and I am fairly confident still is for the most part. There have been some improvements and, as I said above, Phloston and I have quibbled about the degree to which these problems exist, but certainly these are notable deficiencies in the curriculum.
Of course, much of this is heightened for non-domestic students as these deficiencies are most starkly felt when trying to prepare for the USMLE Step 1, as both I and Phloston were. They are still there regardless, IMHO, but if you are entirely domestic and plan of staying and training domestically, then it will be arguably less of a stark issue for you.
Now to offer a little contrast to what trollyking said here:
The problem is that unless you put in a significant amount of time on your own studying the subjects that aren't taught (and not simply studying to the exams) you'll be ill-equipped in the clinical years and less self-reliant and some of the consultants won't like that.
it should be noted that as 3rd years the UQ-O students are widely and consistently regarded more highly than our Tulane and LSU counterparts in terms of clinical ability and acumen. We
do still tend to do less well in getting pimped, but when it comes to functioning in a clinical capacity in clerkships it is common to hear mildly surprised praise at how well we do. Granted there is probably some selection bias involved, but there is also unquestionably the fact that Tulane and LSU students are specifically taught towards the Step 1 whereas UQ covers more clinical preparedness and patient management than a typical US school. I think both are needed, with a heavier emphasis on the basic sciences, so don't get me wrong - I still think that trolly is mostly correct here actually. But there are important positives left out in his biased assessment.
As for Phloston's comment elaborating his dissatisfaction with the UQ experience... it is certainly a valid representation of his experience. I can't comment as fully because I only spent my first two years there and was a very independent (and voracious) reader. What I think I can say is that there are distinct cons and problems with UQ that I have never denied and have elucidated in the past (so I won't re-iterate here... just peruse my comment history). For some people, like myself, these become mild nuisances combined with huge benefits. For others, not so much. I would aver to say that Phloston's personality and learning style clashed with UQ's "personality" and teaching style to a significant degree. That doesn't mean he is wrong or bad, it just means that it was a poor match which is indeed regrettable. For the majority of people though it has been a rather neutral or even positive experience, rounding out a Bell curve as you may well expect. So judgments here should be taken in context, which is why I have laid out as much fact and little opinion as possible in my previous comments on the topic.
1. The organization of the calendar provided for the MD program indicates that you can take clinical rotations in any order you wish, so for example you can take Ob/Gyn in your 3rd or 4th year. Is this to be believed?
Phloston
was correct. The curriculum has changed and it now allows you to take the rotations in any order you prefer. However there are still 3rd and 4th year specific clerkships and I do not know if OB is one of those or if can be done at any point. That would be a question best directed at the SoM itself.
The lack of quality is shocking. Does this mean that there is no Australian equivalent of the LCME?
There is. It is called the Australian Medical Council (AMC) and the LCME considers it an equivalent body with equivalent standards. Which is why an Aussie SoM must be AMC accredited in order to have the degree considered valid in the US. UQ is AMC accredited.
As for the lack of quality being
shocking, bear in mind that this is rather subjective. I've had friends in US schools "shocked" at some lack of something at each of their medical schools as well. I think it is safe to say that just about anything kingtroll says is best dismissed outright, since digging for the pearl of truth and wisdom
occasionally buried in his rants will do more to leave you covered in excrement than enlightened. As for Phloston, certainly heed what he has to say much more seriously. That said I have quibbled with him about the degree to which he finds these things lacking and (to be fair here my friend) feel he has a slightly skewed perspective. Certainly from the view of someone who did some 18,000 unique practice questions, scored above 260 for both Steps, and is a co-author on the current edition of First Aid for Step 1, "lacking" can become a very subjective term. Meaning that while his message is correct, his standards are probably higher than they
need be. Hence my quibble with him about degree.
Finally, if one cannot complete 4th year elective rotations, that would basically make it impossible to come to the US from Aus if you study at UQ, since there are minimum requirements for US-clerkships. If this understanding is correct, and you as an international student have taken the USMLE, how do you plan to return to the US, if you don't mind my asking?
On this one Phloston is indeed correct and the removal of elective is very much a sore spot for us. One that, to my understanding, will change yet again when the MD curriculum is fully implemented. I am unsure of the details here and am no longer intimately involved, but it was made clear at the time that the MD curriculum offered much more flexibility and returned true and full elective.
That said, even without that there would be no issue in terms of practicing in the US. There is absolutely no minimum required number of US clerkships in order to come to the US. Otherwise no Aussie (or other) doctor who did all his or her training in his or her home country would be able to practice in the US. The minimum requirements vary by state, with CA being the most stringent, but it has to do with the number of weeks and study hours spent in specific disciplines and on specific topics. UQ meets all of those requirements in spades.
Additionally to that, you can still do rotations in the US even if they are not called "elective." Some core rotations
must be done at a UQ clinical school, but Ochsner still qualifies for that. Other non-core rotations can be done
anywhere so long as they meet the educational requirements of the rotation and the clerkship head signs off on it.
Another thing is that UQ fails a lot of students in Years 3 and 4. A small school on the other hand basically does everything it can to keep student afloat.
I actually do not know what the attrition rate is for the program, and a quick search didn't reveal anything particularly illuminating. However, I do know for a fact that at the end of my 2nd year a total of 12% of the class failed. That was shocking at the time and was considered astronomically high. However, the majority of those people (including about 3-4 UQ-O students) were given supps and were able to proceed to 3rd year without problem.
To the best of my knowledge the attrition rate is actually not out of the norm, but if someone has actual
data (as opposed to speculation and opinion) I'd certainly be interested to see it.
As for the idea that a small school keeps students afloat... probably true. Certainly that is one of the considerations to take into account when picking a school. If you have an option for a smaller school and that would fit you better, then certainly go for that. But this is just a simple fact of life. If you didn't consider such things when you were applying for undergrad you are a bit late in the game to be learning about such things for the first time now.
Now it is true that the UQ-O classes have tended to shrink a fair bit from initial intake to M3 year. There is no hard data on this either, but from my own knowledge of the classes this is quite multifactorial. Every single year that has been a handful of people who started at UQ-O but then got accepted to a US SoM and left for that, a few nutters that burn out in a blaze of glory, and a handful of people that really shouldn't have gone to medical school in the first place and learned that the hard way (though this is still nothing compared to the attrition rate of the Caribs that basically fail 50% of their classes because they take anyone who is willing to pay and then fail because they don't have what it takes to cut it in med school). From my experience with the classes the fact that UQ has no specific pre-req requirements has allowed for people with little to no science background but yet a desire to become doctors to study enough to do well enough on the MCAT to get in... and then find out how much knowledge they need to make up. This is not to say they aren't smart people, but let's just say I am even more a believer in the idea of pre-reqs for med school like the US schools have. A few such people made it through and are actually my good friends, but they busted their a$$es
hard in school to make it and struggled mightily along the way. But a lot of those people end up falling to the wayside.
And it's a huge deal because if you don't graduate on time you end up missing out on an entire year of internship.
Yes, failing is always a huge deal. However it is first and foremost a huge deal because it is a reflection of your performance in medical school. Whether that be a reflection of your lack of learning or because learning styles clashed enough between learner and educator(s) ultimately doesn't matter. But beyond that there are many options, with the vast majority of students being offered the opportunity to sit supps which would not delay your graduation at all. For those who do have a delayed graduation, even then you don't necessarily need to miss out on a whole year of internship as there are still intakes in June for new Aussie interns that many people have been able to take advantage of. There are also more tricky options with a mid-start where you use your holiday time up front in order to finish your schoolwork in time.
But yes, certainly some people will fail and suffer the consequences of it. However, the idea that this is some inordinate amount of people is not supported by any evidence I have ever seen and trollytroll's comment ignores the many options available to those people which would serve to lessen the ramifications of a failure. Almost certainly the 20-25% statistic is entirely made up, though I don't know of hard data that exists to refute it.
Well hopefully that answers the meat of the actual questions. I'm happy to try and provide some clarification or go over things I may have missed. Just ask :-D
