Questions about volunteering that may be considered rounding

[Chadori]

Hi, I was not sure where to post this thread so please move as necessary.

I am in the midst of training for a customer service volunteer position where I would be asking patients on the oncology and cardiology floors a set of questions about their stay. I am hoping this will give me a chance to develop solid bed-side manners, and become a segue into attaining shadowing opportunities.

My volunteer director said that I would be able to consider this as rounding since I am going room to room and checking on patients.

Can I get some input as to whether or not this holds any value on applications?

Also, what are the differences between rounding and actual clinicals?

thank you

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[Ismet]

Moving to pre-allo.

I wouldn't call it rounding, as you are not participating in patient care. Calling it rounding might imply that you are actually rounding with the medical team. Just describe what you do, that will be enough.

Not sure what you mean by "actual clinicals" but a day in the life of an academic medicine service involves rounding in the morning (attending physician + medical team going room to room, checking on patients and going over the plan for the day) and then managing the patients during the day with orders, tests, etc.

It's great to interact with patients, and it's good that you're thinking of segueing this into shadowing, but keep in mind that for your clinical exposure it's more important that you see what the physician does than to develop a good bedside manner as a pre-med.

 

[Chadori]

Moving to pre-allo.

I wouldn't call it rounding, as you are not participating in patient care. Calling it rounding might imply that you are actually rounding with the medical team. Just describe what you do, that will be enough.

Not sure what you mean by "actual clinicals" but a day in the life of an academic medicine service involves rounding in the morning (attending physician + medical team going room to room, checking on patients and going over the plan for the day) and then managing the patients during the day with orders, tests, etc.

It's great to interact with patients, and it's good that you're thinking of segueing this into shadowing, but keep in mind that for your clinical exposure it's more important that you see what the physician does than to develop a good bedside manner as a pre-med.

Thanks for the feedback.

What you described for the academic service was exactly what I witnessed when I shadowed in the ED. I followed the physician room to room and witnessed how the physician managed all of his patients for the day.

Just to clarify then, are clinicals a rare feat to put on applications? You mentioned clinical exposure and I am not sure if that is the same thing as clinicals.

Sorry for the confusion on terminology. I just want to get an idea of what I can put on my application later on.

 

[22031 Alum]

In the healthcare world, "rounding" is a specific term that is universally interpreted as involving direct patient care. What you will be doing, though involving patients, is no more rounding than the person who picks up dinner trays from every patient room on the floor.

Your use of the word "clinicals" makes me think you heard it from a nurse or allied health professional. The word is used to refer to the part of school/training that is not in the classroom, but on patient care units. Again, what you will be doing is not clinicals. It is a job that involves visiting patients in their rooms, but you are not undergoing clinical training.

All that said, it sounds like an interesting job that should definitely go on your eventual application. It may also lead into more opportunities for clinical exposure, like shadowing doctors you meet.

 

[DrYoda]

Just to clarify then, are clinicals a rare feat to put on applications? You mentioned clinical exposure and I am not sure if that is the same thing as clinicals.

I'm not sure what actual clinicals means, but many students in their clinical years of training call them clinicals. If you mean direct patient care than it's not that rare to have on an application as some are STNAs, EMTs, RNs ect before applying to medical school. As Ismet said rounding is specifically going around with the medical team and reviewing all their patient's cases/management.

Anything interacting with patient hold some value on an application. Just make sure you do some shadowing ect. so you have exposure to what physicians do before you apply.

 

[NickNaylor]

Yes to value on your application, no to calling it "rounding" or "clinicals" as, as mentioned by others, what you're describing is not what is typically considered those things.

 

[Chadori]

Thank everyone.

I'm also in the process of setting up a meeting with the vice president of medical affairs at the hospital.

If anyone has experiences meeting with people in high positions, could I get some insight?

 

[Morsetlis]

What you're doing is not rounding.

However, it doesn't hurt to ask to participate or at least listen in on the actual rounds. You won't get actual cognitive/intellectual value out of it, but it's an experience.

 

[NeuResurgens]

I'm also in the process of setting up a meeting with the vice president of medical affairs at the hospital.

If anyone has experiences meeting with people in high positions, could I get some insight?

What is the purpose of this meeting? That's going to be the first bit of information that will direct how you should approach this thing. Regardless, I suggest interview (business formal) dress for the meeting unless you are expressly told that it is informal. I suppose, if you're just going to chat with this person, ask them to describe the primary purpose of their job, what a day at their workplace looks like, their work-life balance, etc. Just things to get an idea of their side of medicine.

 

[Chadori]

What you're doing is not rounding.

However, it doesn't hurt to ask to participate or at least listen in on the actual rounds. You won't get actual cognitive/intellectual value out of it, but it's an experience.

I will definitely try and ask.

What is the purpose of this meeting? That's going to be the first bit of information that will direct how you should approach this thing. Regardless, I suggest interview (business formal) dress for the meeting unless you are expressly told that it is informal. I suppose, if you're just going to chat with this person, ask them to describe the primary purpose of their job, what a day at their workplace looks like, their work-life balance, etc. Just things to get an idea of their side of medicine.

Well, this meeting is going to be set up by my volunteer director. She thought of him as someone who could assist me in moving toward my goals.

The VP heads the hospital where I had my first shadowing experience at the ED. The nurse who plans that particular ED physician's schedule said it would only be a one time thing. Hopefully, I can ask the VP and see if it can be a "whenever there is room in his schedule" type deal. Aside from getting his side of medicine, should I ask also ask for other doctors to shadow, or even the chance to shadow him?

Normally, I wouldn't hesitate to ask, but I don't want the meeting to just be.. Oh, can I do this or can I do that?

 

[LizzyM]

On the med school application, there is room for "volunteer, non-clinical" and "volunteer, clinical". It sounds like what you have going here is the latter and that is great.

While part of the reason for clinical exposure is to see what the doctor does, I believe that it is also an opportunity to get an idea of what it is to be in the presence of people who are sick, injured or worried about their health. The reality doesn't always match a pre-med's expectations and it is good to have some idea of the reality before getting too far into the process.

Is the VP for medical affairs a physician? Is the idea to meet him and perhaps have an ongoing shadowing experience with him? That would be very interesting at giving you an appreciation for the variety of roles a physician-administrator has.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Well, this meeting is going to be set up by my volunteer director. She thought of him as someone who could assist me in moving toward my goals.

The VP heads the hospital where I had my first shadowing experience at the ED. The nurse who plans that particular ED physician's schedule said it would only be a one time thing. Hopefully, I can ask the VP and see if it can be a "whenever there is room in his schedule" type deal. Aside from getting his side of medicine, should I ask also ask for other doctors to shadow, or even the chance to shadow him?

Normally, I wouldn't hesitate to ask, but I don't want the meeting to just be.. Oh, can I do this or can I do that?

Very cool. Sorry I'm still a little bit confused - so you want to ask the VP if you can shadow the ER Doc that you shadowed whenever he has time? If so, I'm not sure it'd be a great idea to try and leverage with a superior to get something from one of the Docs under him. (but I could be interpreting your description wrong, and if so, sorry about that.) I would focus more on the privilege of meeting the VP himself, and focusing some questions on learning about what he does. If the meeting goes well, you very well could ask him if you might shadow him, provided he won't be doing anything sensitive to the company he wouldn't want public on the day you'd be shadowing him. I don't think shadowing an administrator would count as the type of shadowing that medical schools are looking for, but it would certainly be interesting and would yield some nice networking opportunities/possible LOR.

 

[Chadori]

On the med school application, there is room for "volunteer, non-clinical" and "volunteer, clinical". It sounds like what you have going here is the latter and that is great.

While part of the reason for clinical exposure is to see what the doctor does, I believe that it is also an opportunity to get an idea of what it is to be in the presence of people who are sick, injured or worried about their health. The reality doesn't always match a pre-med's expectations and it is good to have some idea of the reality before getting too far into the process.

Is the VP for medical affairs a physician? Is the idea to meet him and perhaps have an ongoing shadowing experience with him? That would be very interesting at giving you an appreciation for the variety of roles a physician-administrator has.

He actually is a physician in family medicine. For now, yes, the idea is to meet him and establish myself under his radar. I very well should ask to see if I am able to shadow him sometimes.

Very cool. Sorry I'm still a little bit confused - so you want to ask the VP if you can shadow the ER Doc that you shadowed whenever he has time? If so, I'm not sure it'd be a great idea to try and leverage with a superior to get something from one of the Docs under him. (but I could be interpreting your description wrong, and if so, sorry about that.) I would focus more on the privilege of meeting the VP himself, and focusing some questions on learning about what he does. If the meeting goes well, you very well could ask him if you might shadow him, provided he won't be doing anything sensitive to the company he wouldn't want public on the day you'd be shadowing him. I don't think shadowing an administrator would count as the type of shadowing that medical schools are looking for, but it would certainly be interesting and would yield some nice networking opportunities/possible LOR.

Yeah, that was it. I wanted to shadow the VP and the ER doc. I'll probably hold off asking about the ER doc since there may be another way I can get back to shadowing him via my volunteer director. I'll try to get the talk about how I can get the best depiction of how medicine truly is.

 

[NeuResurgens]

He actually is a physician in family medicine. For now, yes, the idea is to meet him and establish myself under his radar. I very well should ask to see if I am able to shadow him sometimes.



Yeah, that was it. I wanted to shadow the VP and the ER doc. I'll probably hold off asking about the ER doc since there may be another way I can get back to shadowing him via my volunteer director. I'll try to get the talk about how I can get the best depiction of how medicine truly is.

If he's in FM and is practicing then yes, totally ask him if you can shadow him. Provided the meeting is a good one.

 

[primadonna22274]

Not rounding. Talking to patients in a customer service position.

 

[Chadori]

I am going to Nicaragua for a week after school ends. There, I will be able to engage in patient contact. Would that be considered clinicals?

 

[Ismet]

Thanks for the feedback.

What you described for the academic service was exactly what I witnessed when I shadowed in the ED. I followed the physician room to room and witnessed how the physician managed all of his patients for the day.

Just to clarify then, are clinicals a rare feat to put on applications? You mentioned clinical exposure and I am not sure if that is the same thing as clinicals.

Sorry for the confusion on terminology. I just want to get an idea of what I can put on my application later on.

Just to further clarify the terminology for you, It's not really rounding in the ED, at least not in any of the EDs I've worked in. Rounding is an inpatient thing. In the ED, you see the patient when they get roomed, do whatever testing/treatment is needed, visit as needed, and they get discharged or sent to the floor (or transferred). People who are more critical are prioritized. Rounding on inpatient services (medicine, peds, inpatient subspecialties, surgery) is more organized. Your service has a list of patients and you visit them in the morning so the whole team can be updated on what happened overnight, do a quick check on how the patient is feeling/looking/sounding, and go over the plan for the day. You only round once in the morning, and then usually near the end of the day you go over the list to update the team on what happened during the day.

I am going to Nicaragua for a week after school ends. There, I will be able to engage in patient contact. Would that be considered clinicals?

It's not "clinicals." The only time I've heard people say "clinicals" it was a pharmacy or nursing student talking about their clinical rotations. It's "clinical exposure" or "clinical experience," and anytime you interact with patients, in the US or elsewhere, is considered clinical experience. Just make sure that you're not performing tasks that you're not qualified to do in the US. There are medical mission trips that allow pre-meds to do things that they wouldn't be allowed to do in the US.

 

[Chadori]

Just to further clarify the terminology for you, It's not really rounding in the ED, at least not in any of the EDs I've worked in. Rounding is an inpatient thing. In the ED, you see the patient when they get roomed, do whatever testing/treatment is needed, visit as needed, and they get discharged or sent to the floor (or transferred). People who are more critical are prioritized. Rounding on inpatient services (medicine, peds, inpatient subspecialties, surgery) is more organized. Your service has a list of patients and you visit them in the morning so the whole team can be updated on what happened overnight, do a quick check on how the patient is feeling/looking/sounding, and go over the plan for the day. You only round once in the morning, and then usually near the end of the day you go over the list to update the team on what happened during the day.



It's not "clinicals." The only time I've heard people say "clinicals" it was a pharmacy or nursing student talking about their clinical rotations. It's "clinical exposure" or "clinical experience," and anytime you interact with patients, in the US or elsewhere, is considered clinical experience. Just make sure that you're not performing tasks that you're not qualified to do in the US. There are medical mission trips that allow pre-meds to do things that they wouldn't be allowed to do in the US.

Hmmm, that may be a problem. I know that I will be taking vital signs and filling out SOAP forms. I believe that should be it. I remember them mentioning something about filling a prescription form, but I think all of the drugs that we are allowed to write down are OTC for US. I have to double check and make sure.

 

[NickNaylor]

Hmmm, that may be a problem. I know that I will be taking vital signs and filling out SOAP forms. I believe that should be it. I remember them mentioning something about filling a prescription form, but I think all of the drugs that we are allowed to write down are OTC for US. I have to double check and make sure.

Vital signs isn't a big deal. There are people that complete certifications at DeVry that are qualified to take vital signs. I'd be curious to know how you're going to complete SOAP notes considering you have zero medical training, though.

 

[LizzyM]

Vital signs isn't a big deal. There are people that complete certifications at DeVry that are qualified to take vital signs. I'd be curious to know how you're going to complete SOAP notes considering you have zero medical training, though.

Anyone can record a subjective complaint from the patient, an objective observation, make an assessment of the problem and make a plan. The depth of the assessment and the plan is going to vary with one's level of education and expertise and the severity of the problem. A mother might observe that the baby is fussy and drooling, see and feel eruptions in the gums at the midline of the lower jaw, determine that the baby is teething and plan to offer the baby a chilled teething ring and administer Tylenol.

I'm not a fan of medical tourism but it could be classified as "clinical volunteerism" although the efforts of one week are not held in high esteem as the same number of hours provided over many months in a domestic setting.

 

[Chadori]

I'm not a fan of medical tourism but it could be classified as "clinical volunteerism" although the efforts of one week are not held in high esteem as the same number of hours provided over many months in a domestic setting.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Besides the "customer service" volunteering and shadowing, what else could I do? Right now, I am highly considering taking a gap semester (either fall 2017 or spring 2018) and that could be a period where I am able to make significant improvement to my application.

 

[LizzyM]

Without knowing how far along you are in school or where (urban, suburban, rural), your transportation options, the type of school you attend (large or small, public or private), your specific interests, and so forth, it is hard to know how to advise you. Rather than thinking about how to check some boxes on the application, look for opportunities to do things that interest you. Try out for a play or join a robotics team or organize a blood drive through the Red Cross. There are a million opportunities and if you are genuine with yourself and seek out opportunities that genuinely interest you then your application will show admissions committees an applicant with integrity who is real and not cut from the same cookie cutter as all the rest.

 

[tiedyeddog]

The VP heads the hospital where I had my first shadowing experience at the ED. The nurse who plans that particular ED physician's schedule said it would only be a one time thing. Hopefully, I can ask the VP and see if it can be a "whenever there is room in his schedule" type deal. Aside from getting his side of medicine, should I ask also ask for other doctors to shadow, or even the chance to shadow him?

Normally, I wouldn't hesitate to ask, but I don't want the meeting to just be.. Oh, can I do this or can I do that?

I don't really understand your angle for meeting with this guy. You are just trying to find more people to shadow?

 

[Chadori]

Without knowing how far along you are in school or where (urban, suburban, rural), your transportation options, the type of school you attend (large or small, public or private), your specific interests, and so forth, it is hard to know how to advise you. Rather than thinking about how to check some boxes on the application, look for opportunities to do things that interest you. Try out for a play or join a robotics team or organize a blood drive through the Red Cross. There are a million opportunities and if you are genuine with yourself and seek out opportunities that genuinely interest you then your application will show admissions committees an applicant with integrity who is real and not cut from the same cookie cutter as all the rest.

Thanks for this. I really love organic chemistry and I'm about to begin doing some research on the biological side of it this summer. Teaching is also fun, but I can't do any peer assistance until spring 2016 since that is when ochem 2 is offered again (for my teacher).

I don't really understand your angle for meeting with this guy. You are just trying to find more people to shadow?

It's trying to get his aspect of medicine and more or less seeing if there are any extra resources he could offer.

 

[Morsetlis]

I really doubt there are cookie cutter human beings. It's hard to not get jaded with academic medicine when old people on adcoms think like this of our future physicians.

Without knowing how far along you are in school or where (urban, suburban, rural), your transportation options, the type of school you attend (large or small, public or private), your specific interests, and so forth, it is hard to know how to advise you. Rather than thinking about how to check some boxes on the application, look for opportunities to do things that interest you. Try out for a play or join a robotics team or organize a blood drive through the Red Cross. There are a million opportunities and if you are genuine with yourself and seek out opportunities that genuinely interest you then your application will show admissions committees an applicant with integrity who is real and not cut from the same cookie cutter as all the rest.

 

[LizzyM]

I really doubt there are cookie cutter human beings. It's hard to not get jaded with academic medicine when old people on adcoms think like this of our future physicians.

It's hard not to be jaded when one reads a few hundred applications per year for more than 10 years and so many applicants seem like a row of identical cookies from the bakery (I'd have said gingerbread men but I wouldn't want this to devolve into a discussion of URM). Better to be yourself and do what you feel inspired to do rather than follow a formula. Or maybe that's where we got cookbook medicine.

 

[Chadori]

It's hard not to be jaded when one reads a few hundred applications per year for more than 10 years and so many applicants seem like a row of identical cookies from the bakery (I'd have said gingerbread men but I wouldn't want this to devolve into a discussion of URM). Better to be yourself and do what you feel inspired to do rather than follow a formula. Or maybe that's where we got cookbook medicine.

That was an impression that I got when I first started reading about some of the "necessary" tasks to complete before applying. When I got into college, the cookie cutter concept was somewhat proved. I felt that there were many organizations one could join, but their themes and motifs seemed to align.

Speaking of organizations on campus, is it absolutely necessary to join one? I haven't an organization that I seem fond of. There is a local motorcycle group that I belong, but we don't really do much as a group. The gist of it is that we try to promote wearing protective gear and safe riding techniques to new members.

 

[LizzyM]

It isn't required to join a campus group but you shouldn't come across in your application as a loner who never does anything with others.The practice of medicine is a team sport. Combining an enjoyment of motorcycling and targeted injury prevention messages is a nice blend.

 

[Vain Brother]

Hmmm, that may be a problem. I know that I will be taking vital signs and filling out SOAP forms. I believe that should be it. I remember them mentioning something about filling a prescription form, but I think all of the drugs that we are allowed to write down are OTC for US. I have to double check and make sure.

i think...this post warrants a bit more scrutiny. just to clarify, you will be transcribing the orders of people with medical training, not actually assessing patients and prescribing medicine? the latter would be profoundly unethical

taking vital signs is fine, anyone can be taught to take a blood pressure in a day or two, especially if they use the electronic ones

 

[Vain Brother]

also about "clinicals", to borrow from kobe bryant, delete that word out your vocab. you will not be doing "clinicals" until you are in medical school.

 

[Chadori]

i think...this post warrants a bit more scrutiny. just to clarify, you will be transcribing the orders of people with medical training, not actually assessing patients and prescribing medicine? the latter would be profoundly unethical

taking vital signs is fine, anyone can be taught to take a blood pressure in a day or two, especially if they use the electronic ones

You know what, it actually may be the latter. I am beginning to feel a bit uneasy about this. The thing is they make us go through four total days of training and all we do is read off power points where we get a bunch of possible illnesses and how to spot them and what to prescribe.

I may have to contact the physician that began this whole program and get his perspective. As of now it would be as if we are learning to play a sport, but we're not going to apply what we know until it's game day.

 

[Vain Brother]

yeah, i don't mean to give you a hard time about it or anything but programs that essentially let laypeople play doctor to vulnerable populations who could benefit from actual care are pretty problematic, ethically and morally speaking. and as @LizzyM alluded to, these short internships aren't viewed as favorably as a sustained experience to a population closer to home where you contribute within the scope of your abilities.

here's an article from the chronicle of higher education that discusses these medical internships and their ethical issues, plus a a description of the way at least one adcom views them. everyone should read it: http://ghi.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Chronicle_of_Higher_Education_too_much_too_soon.pdf

 

[Goro]

No, it will be considered "medical tourism".

I am going to Nicaragua for a week after school ends. There, I will be able to engage in patient contact. Would that be considered clinicals?

If I may follow up on my learned colleague's comment, I agree that there are no cookie cutter people, but there are definitely cookie cutter ECs. Many people try to do what's convenient, as opposed to what's necessary. Your ageism doesn't help your case either.

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's the deal: One needs to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanism side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless or Alzheimers or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.


I really doubt there are cookie cutter human beings. It's hard to not get jaded with academic medicine when old people on adcoms think like this of our future physicians

 

[Chadori]

yeah, i don't mean to give you a hard time about it or anything but programs that essentially let laypeople play doctor to vulnerable populations who could benefit from actual care are pretty problematic, ethically and morally speaking. and as @LizzyM alluded to, these short internships aren't viewed as favorably as a sustained experience to a population closer to home where you contribute within the scope of your abilities.

here's an article from the chronicle of higher education that discusses these medical internships and their ethical issues, plus a a description of the way at least one adcom views them. everyone should read it: http://ghi.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Chronicle_of_Higher_Education_too_much_too_soon.pdf

So after digging for some more clarification, we are taking vital signs, filling out SOAP forms, and writing prescriptions. The thing is that the SOAP forms and prescriptions are to be verified by a physician. We are going to be in small groups, each with a leading physician so that they can check over our work. With this said, I agree that it would be unethical if we were just prescribing and diagnosing on a whim, but since our prescriptions and SOAP forms aren't valid until verified by an actual physician, would that still be unethical? I think the only valid actions we can make are to take vital signs.

No, it will be considered "medical tourism".




If I may follow up on my learned colleague's comment, I agree that there are no cookie cutter people, but there are definitely cookie cutter ECs. Many people try to do what's convenient, as opposed to what's necessary. Your ageism doesn't help your case either.

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's the deal: One needs to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanism side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless or Alzheimers or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.


I really doubt there are cookie cutter human beings. It's hard to not get jaded with academic medicine when old people on adcoms think like this of our future physicians

Thanks for this. The motorcycle group that I am apart of volunteers at food pantries, but it's not a weekly deal. I'm trying to attain an undergraduate TA/peer assistant position for organic chemistry for the spring 16 semester right now, which would allow me to have 1-on-1 tutoring sessions with the students.

I'll definitely keep in mind that the uncomfortable situations may hold a bit more weight.

Thank you

 

[Ismet]

So after digging for some more clarification, we are taking vital signs, filling out SOAP forms, and writing prescriptions. The thing is that the SOAP forms and prescriptions are to be verified by a physician. We are going to be in small groups, each with a leading physician so that they can check over our work. With this said, I agree that it would be unethical if we were just prescribing and diagnosing on a whim, but since our prescriptions and SOAP forms aren't valid until verified by an actual physician, would that still be unethical? I think the only valid actions we can make are to take vital signs.



Thanks for this. The motorcycle group that I am apart of volunteers at food pantries, but it's not a weekly deal. I'm trying to attain an undergraduate TA/peer assistant position for organic chemistry for the spring 16 semester right now, which would allow me to have 1-on-1 tutoring sessions with the students.

I'll definitely keep in mind that the uncomfortable situations may hold a bit more weight.

Thank you

I would not do that medical mission trip. What you are describing is well beyond the scope of a pre-med, even if a physician is there and has to sign it.

 

[Chadori]

I would not do that medical mission trip. What you are describing is well beyond the scope of a pre-med, even if a physician is there and has to sign it.

Can you assist me in devising an argument against the trip? I'm not trying to go to the organization leaders and talk bad about the program, but my plan was to bring this to the attention of a teacher that I am close with and see what he thinks. Although, he's not a physician, his input is one that I would like to have. There is still about a month left before the trip begins and I want to make sure that I have all of my information correct before a final decision is made.

Also, if anyone does think this trip holds some validity, please state why. If this does end up becoming an issue, I would want as much input as possible in order to make the best decision.

 

[LizzyM]

Take a look at
http://www.michigandaily.com/news/pre-health-students-urged-not-perform-illegal-procedures
and
https://www.aamc.org/download/181690/data/guidelinesforstudentsprovidingpatientcare.pdf

 

[Chadori]

pretty glad I posted here before doing anything