Quitting Your Current Residency? Read This First...

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Hello,

I am quite sure that somewhere in this country, there will be some unfortunate souls who tosses and turns at night thinking if they made the right choice of being in this residency or at this particular place. Before you think about turning in your badge you need to think this through. First, why am I here? Is it that I need to gain CREDENTIALS so I can be competive when I apply to that specialty program or I just need additional experience before I embark on my private practice? If your current program is not providing what you need then I believe that throwing in the towl is OK as long as you DO NOT plan to seek additional training (such as residencies or fellowship). While I was in my AEGD at the University of Minnesota, couple people quit so they can open their practice since for some reason, they feel that the program did not enhance the skills that they already had. That is OK, but if they do plan to return to school, they will be at a big DISADVANTAGE as no program wants to admitt proven quitters while there are so many good applicants out there.

If you do plan to go on, such as finishing GPR or AEGD then to a specialty, then STICK with it no matter how painful it is. It is very very common for upper residents to treat incoming ones like $%^&* because perhaps they were once treated as such! During my 6 year post graduate training, I was:

1. Pushed and punched by my fellow resident.
2. Screamed and had a patient's chart thrown on the table where I sat.
3. Finger pointing straight in my face by a professor.
4. Thrown out of an office by one of my mentors " get the #$$%56 out of here!".
5. Pushed by an OR nurse asking me " what the hell are you doing? Are you a nursing student?"
6. More but it may initiate my PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder)".

But I swallowed all my pride and sucked it in because I know that once that certificate is on my wall NO ONE can take it away from me! You see, post grad training is such a small part in your journey but the rewards they they offer is more than what you had to endure! Expected to be treated as $%^$& by senior resident is rather the norm than the exception. If you think getting to a different program will get you better treated then think again.

So my point is DON'T QUIT, a year or two will pass by quickly and once you look at that thing hanging in your office, you will know that what I say now is true. DP

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[Blackstars]

Thank you for your insightful post. You're an asset to this board.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

 

[duh?]

Hello,

I am quite sure that somewhere in this country, there will be some unfortunate souls who tosses and turns at night thinking if they made the right choice of being in this residency or at this particular place. Before you think about turning in your badge you need to think this through. First, why am I here? Is it that I need to gain CREDENTIALS so I can be competive when I apply to that specialty program or I just need additional experience before I embark on my private practice? If your current program is not providing what you need then I believe that throwing in the towl is OK as long as you DO NOT plan to seek additional training (such as residencies or fellowship). While I was in my AEGD at the University of Minnesota, couple people quit so they can open their practice since for some reason, they feel that the program did not enhance the skills that they already had. That is OK, but if they do plan to return to school, they will be at a big DISADVANTAGE as no program wants to admitt proven quitters while there are so many good applicants out there.

If you do plan to go on, such as finishing GPR or AEGD then to a specialty, then STICK with it no matter how painful it is. It is very very common for upper residents to treat incoming ones like $%^&* because perhaps they were once treated as such! During my 6 year post graduate training, I was:

1. Pushed and punched by my fellow resident.
2. Screamed and had a patient's chart thrown on the table where I sat.
3. Finger pointing straight in my face by a professor.
4. Thrown out of an office by one of my mentors " get the #$$%56 out of here!".
5. Pushed by an OR nurse asking me " what the hell are you doing? Are you a nursing student?"6. More but it may initiate my PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder)".

But I swallowed all my pride and sucked it in because I know that once that certificate is on my wall NO ONE can take it away from me! You see, post grad training is such a small part in your journey but the rewards they they offer is more than what you had to endure! Expected to be treated as $%^$& by senior resident is rather the norm than the exception. If you think getting to a different program will get you better treated then think again.

So my point is DON'T QUIT, a year or two will pass by quickly and once you look at that thing hanging in your office, you will know that what I say now is true. DP

If you dont mind, would you please tell me when you 'did your time?' And are 'residents'/post grad students still treated this way? OHMIGOSH. I dunno how people survive this!

 

[Yah-E]

If you dont mind, would you please tell me when you 'did your time?' And are 'residents'/post grad students still treated this way? OHMIGOSH. I dunno how people survive this!

No disrespect, Dr. Phan, but when I first saw your SDN name, I thought it was someone playing a joke because there was this show called "The Last Comic Standing" and the winner of that show was a Vietnamese dude named Dat or Dai Phan!

At any rate, to answer Duh's question, here are Doc Phan's postdoc training:

I then went on and did my post graduate trainings in General Dentistry (G.P.R and A.E.G.D) at the University of Nebraska Medical Center and University of Minnesota in 1996 and 1997. I then went on and completed a three year Prosthodontic Residency at Marquette University in 2000. Then I went another step further... I did an one year fellowship at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in Maxillofacial Prosthetic program completed in 2001.

I guess there are pricks and ******s everywhere, but I just can't see a GPR, AEGD, Prostho, and Maxillofacial Prosthetic residency being that malignant? I guess, I can see how you can get yelled at at an AEGD program, because AEGDs are basically 5th year of dental school. We all know in dental schools, we get treated like crap in clinic!

This is why I believe choosing a residency based on who's already there is so crucial! My main criteria to rank my OMFS program was based on where I can see myself the happiest due to current residents and faculty members. Getting along with everyone and fitting in will make years of residency not only less stress, but it can make the years of training fun as hell!

 

[adamlc18]

I have heard Pros residencies are second only to OMFS in terms of working the residents really hard.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

I guess there are pricks and ******s everywhere, but I just can't see a GPR, AEGD, Prostho, and Maxillofacial Prosthetic residency being that malignant? I guess, I can see how you can get yelled at at an AEGD program, because AEGDs are basically 5th year of dental school. We all know in dental schools, we get treated like crap in clinic!

You will get yelled at and treated like a dental student, only if you act like a dental student! I've done a 2 year AEGD at a university-setting, and I had come across plenty of fresh graduates who had hard time thinking outside of the box. Most of the time, they had no clue how to manage the patient or deal with the faculty or the staff. People say it's a 5th year of dental school because most people are clueless and don't know what to do in the clinic or with the patient when they start off (byproduct of antiquated dental school system?). It does, however, get better towards the end.

But I've also met plenty of GPR and VA Hospital dental residents who admitted at being yelled at or being treated like a "dental student". It can happen everywhere if you're not prepared. The most important learning experience during the general dentistry residency, I belive, is to convey positive attitude. So if your attitude is "why I am just a dental student, please spoon feed me" then that is exactly what you will get - from your colleagues and faculty. It's all in your state of your mind.

 

[duh?]

No disrespect, Dr. Phan, but when I first saw your SDN name, I thought it was someone playing a joke because there was this show called "The Last Comic Standing" and the winner of that show was a Vietnamese dude named Dat or Dai Phan!

At any rate, to answer Duh's question, here are Doc Phan's postdoc training:


I guess there are pricks and ******s everywhere, but I just can't see a GPR, AEGD, Prostho, and Maxillofacial Prosthetic residency being that malignant? I guess, I can see how you can get yelled at at an AEGD program, because AEGDs are basically 5th year of dental school. We all know in dental schools, we get treated like crap in clinic!

This is why I believe choosing a residency based on who's already there is so crucial! My main criteria to rank my OMFS program was based on where I can see myself the happiest due to current residents and faculty members. Getting along with everyone and fitting in will make years of residency not only less stress, but it can make the years of training fun as hell!

Thanks Yah-E. I guess the shock of all that maltreatment temporarily wiped out my memory. I agree that it's very important to consider the types of people already in the program. Thanks for that little bit of 'advice.'

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

The best way to avoid being yelled at: don't do stupid things...

I'm sure there are times that people are yelled at for no reason, and I'm more sure that people have, at times, received more of an earful than they deserved. In most cases, when someone gets reamed, it's because he's done something to bring it on.

 

[toofache32]

The best way to avoid being yelled at: don't do stupid things...

I'm sure there are times that people are yelled at for no reason, and I'm more sure that people have, at times, received more of an earful than they deserved. In most cases, when someone gets reamed, it's because he's done something to bring it on.

True dat. Don't be caught with your pants down.

 

[Doggie]

True dat. Don't be caught with your pants down.

.........and dont drop the soap....

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Hello,

This is my tip for all who will go into advanced training. Do not let me post scare you. I am sure that there will be ones who can tell you that post grad training is the best X years of their lives and so forth... You see, when you put a group of people together with different "hiarchy", things will go wrong. If you come in with an attitute like " OK, I graduated from dental school", so now 'I deserve RESPECT!!!" with the air of confidence and order the assistants around, my friend ... you will treated to some !@#ss whooping by them! From my personal experience, the assistants at one post grad program did not treat incoming residents well at all! Infact, they TOLD them what burs to use, and say things like "open that wall up or where is your anatomy, or that's the wrong procedure" INFRONT of the patients. I am quite sure my fellow residents who know me and read this thread will no doubt tell you that this is true! I once had an assistant who took the handle of the mirror and started to hit on my handpiece if she feels that I choose the wrong bur INFRONT of the patient!!! Ofcourse, like Tony Montana once said " I don't f%?&** over nobody in my life if they don't have that coming to them, you know what I am saying...?" but you know what I really think? It is ALL ABOUT EGO!!
I have seen some really talented and hard working residents being treated worse than dirt!! It is a shame but your best bet is to walk away and pay no attention to them. It is just a hemroid that WILL go away. DP

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

When you go and interview, your best bet of getting into a good prgram in terms of " can we all just get along..???" is to ask the residents and I mean pulling them aside and ask them to tell you what they think. If you ask general questions rather than asking for personal opinion, they all will tell you that their program is best in the nation! Good luck DP

 

[GQ1]

I have heard Pros residencies are second only to OMFS in terms of working the residents really hard.

Thats what you want from a residency. Pros and OMFS residencies will teach you the the most in the residency period thats why they re so hard but you ve achieved the largest leap in terms of knowledge.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Hello,

No doubt that pros residency is a TOUGH one! That is why there are more international residents in pros than US grads as the latter just don't want to spend nights and weekend in lab! DP

 

[esclavo]

Hello,

No doubt that pros residency is a TOUGH one! That is why there are more international residents in pros than US grads as the latter just don't want to spend nights and weekend in lab! DP

You're right, US grads would rather spend their nights and weekends getting spit on by drunk bastards in the ED while trying to stop the facial artery bleed and complete the subsequent examination.... be glad that articulators don't spit and swear at you when you are trying to wax that full mouth reconstruction....

 

[north2southOMFS]

You're right, US grads would rather spend their nights and weekends getting spit on by drunk bastards in the ED while trying to stop the facial artery bleed and complete the subsequent examination.... be glad that articulators don't spit and swear at you when you are trying to wax that full mouth reconstruction....

Actually, i would usually spend my nights and weekends being the drunk bastard doing all the spitting. But i'm not international you see.

 

[pfmprep]

hi

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

I found this site and was very interested in what I found. I quit my GPR program after 6 months about a week ago. I had given my two weeks notice and I left on good terms. I am writing this to cleanse my mind and with the hope to help what I know are many GPR residents that are unhappy.

What Dr. Dai wrote about resigning from a GPR is pretty much right on...
1) Think about it first. I considered leaving after 2 months of being there. The four extra months I stayed gave me time to conclude it was the right move and also gave me 4 more months of GPR experience.
2) If you need the program for licensure, it is unwise to leave. It is probably easier to get a license through the program than to attempt to take a certification exam outside of dental school.
3) Understand that you will most likely never get accepted to any program that uses PASS or MATCH ever again. In fact, the rules state that you can not use these application services for two years after leaving, period. So if you ever wanted to be an orthodontist, you have to accept that that is no longer an option.
4) Don't leave without somewhere to go! I've talked to a some residents who just left and then realized, "holy ****, I need a license, malpractice insurance, health insurance, an f-in job, DEA registration,...", dumb...
5) If you do decide to leave, be honest, don't apologize for things that aren't your fault, remember that everything happens for a reason, and that you will be okay.
6) You will always have to live with the knowledge that you quit your GPR; tangibly exhibited by the fact that you will not receive a certificate.

The following is program specific, so don't assume every program is like this, but know that some are.

So why did I leave? Generally? I was unhappy every morning that I woke up because I hated what I was doing everyday. I hated call. I hated that the hospital basically used me as an employee with "Dr." on his name. I hated that I was not doing much actual general dentistry. I hated knowing that I had a marketable skill that I was not applying. And I had trouble handling the long hours, 8 to 6 each day with in house on-call once a week, sometimes twice- for a total of over 60 hours in the hospital.

When I found myself in the dental clinic we worked from 9 to 12 and were scheduled 9 patients in this time of which about 7 usually showed. After lunch we worked from 1 to 5 and were scheduled 13 patients during this time of which 10 usually showed. On top of this, OMS frequently sent emergencies over, making a total of close to 20 patients a day. My record was 25 in 8 hours of sitting in the chair, but my average was about 17 a day. I felt this was unreasonable and I felt I was being used as for the clinic basically gets revenue from the total number of patients seen. With 20 minutes per patient I was truly unable to improve my clinical skills in that environment, and was forced into doing cursory exams, denture impressions, and quick fillings. If I wanted to do a nice fixed procedure, I always could, but would then put myself back by 2 or 3 patients.

In terms of the educational value of the program, the number one benefit that I gained was in my production value. Getting through 15 to 17 patients a day does wonders for your speed, which in the real world = money. I also gained previously unhad experiences restoring implants and doing minor flap surgeries. Although some might be into this, I was unhappy that lectures always revolved around oral surgery and not general dentistry. None the less, I did gained significant knowledge regarding oral surgery, despite the fact that I will never really need to apply that knowledge. Most importantly, the program helped me realize how to handle intense situations by acting professionally and confidently as a Doctor/ dentist.

I very much disliked the non-dental related aspects of the job. Being on call exposes the resident to many medical situations that have little to do with general dentistry. For example, extra-oral suturing and facial fracture diagnosing. Also, the 2 week rotations (er, pediatric dentistry, anesthesia, internal medicine, and OMS) have little to do with general dentistry if anything. If you are into those type of experiences, then perhaps a GPR is for you. In my personal experience the remaining 6 months for me would have involved 2 weeks in the er, 2 months with pediatric dentistry, 2 weeks with OMS, and two weeks vacation. Thus leaving only 2 and a half months of actual general dentistry. It made me reconsider how I was benefiting from the program.

With almost zero turn over time, I have found a nice new job. I love what I'm doing now and I earn a representative salary. Not that the experience is out of my mind, but I have happily accepted that the decision was right for me.

This little ditty does ramble, but it came from the heart. Good luck to all young dentists out there!

Hello,

Excellent post !!! I need to make some comments here too. I am very sad that the GPR experience for you is a sour one. There are excellent GPR programs out there as well as very bad ones.I had a very hummilating experience that one night, a drown victim was brought into the ER and after repeated attempts to rescusitate him failed, the doctors left and the nurses start to mop up the place. As I turned to leave, I felt a tap on my shoulder and it was one of the nurses asking me if I want to do practice chest compression on this lifeless body! How SHAMEFUL (not to mention disrespecful) it looks if a dental resident doing compressions on a dead body while others are mopping up the place! At that point, I felt that the few months spending in these totally non-dentally related enviroment is a waste of time. That is why one should really investigate the GPR program before accepting it. Nowadays, GPR programs are EVERYWHERE and it does not require anything special to get in. Just don't get exploited. If your aim is to polish your dental skills, then AEGD is the way to go. I am not scaring anyone from doing a GPR or saying that dentist should focus only in the mouth, but you should carefully look into the program before accepting the offer. DP

 

[pfmprep]

hi

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Hello,

For all who have been reading this post, please understand that I am not trying to say that GPR is a bad investment. I think it is an EXCELLENT residency that all graduating dentists should do. I believe that dental schools are too focused "dentally" and not teaching the students to make informed medical decisions that is best for the patients. For an example, if a patient has a heart mummur but the procedure only involves simple restorations, then he should proceed without any premed given. In school, you do what your prof. tells you: you write a consult to an MD asking if you should or should not premed the patient and that is a waste of time. Having attending four different dental schools during my training I see the pattern. Now, if you do the GPR program, you will be able to make intelligent and informed decisions and you will look back and wonder how you wasted that patient's time for nothing. So my point is GPR is great but you need to know about the program before you start. DP

 

[pfmprep]

i completely agree with Dr. P. GPR's can be rewarding experiences. But there are good ones and bad ones. My experience was poor. But even if you wind up in a situation like myself, it's not the end of the world by any means!

 

[pfmprep]

Due to my inexperience with this network, I received a personal question from a current fourth year dental student and was unable to reply. I would be obliged to reply to that student if he could write back a second time.

 

[gdsdds]

Some of the best GPR experiences are at VA's ( Veterans Hospitals) all around the country... Hardly any call (if any), Pt's don't pay for anything, nice hours.......

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Some of the best GPR experiences are at VA's ( Veterans Hospitals) all around the country... Hardly any call (if any), Pt's don't pay for anything, nice hours.......

Hello,

True but most patients are old with badly decayed teeth making ideal dentistry impossible. They serve good training facilities for removable prosthodontics. Remember that each VA is different from others so make sure you look into it. Ones with pros,endo and perio residency programs are good. DP

 

[HuyetKiem]

Some of the best GPR experiences are at VA's ( Veterans Hospitals) all around the country... Hardly any call (if any), Pt's don't pay for anything, nice hours.......

Any comment about the GPR program at VA's in Houston ?

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Any comment about the GPR program at VA's in Houston ?

Hello,

Don't know anything about it. If you want high quality general dentistry residencies, armed forces AEGDs are hard to beat! DP

 

[gdsdds]

The patient population varies from young to the very old. The population that most doctors at VAs are now treating fought in the Vietman war.

The teeth which are treated are not so badly decayed as you described. And if they are, they are treated with RCTs, and if not , then are extracted and treated with C&B/ implants. Ideal dentistry is practiced because these patients pay for nothing because in most cases it is compensated by the federal government. So C&B, and implant treatment plans are the norm as opposed the exception.

Your stipend and benefts are also covered by the federal government.

 

[pfmprep]

******Enlight of certain accusations brought to my attention in a personal message from "shariq" (notice real name not used), I have made changes to my original post. I respect the professional nature of this site, and despite pfmprep's minimal usage, have been a member for over a year under another screenname. I stand by my work and have made every effort to be honest in my posts. Due to the inherent heavy emotional nature that comes with resigning from any position, some daily total numbers were increased. Also, I did not give two weeks notice of my leaving. By quote from the director of surgery at my program, (head hancho), "I won't do anything, you will be leaving on good circumstances", this statement was followed by an admission of unprofessinality on my part; these are the terms with which I left. These were personal details that I did not feel belonged in my original post. Please feel free to consider the following post. It is hopefully the final, official draft.******

I found this site and was very interested in what I found. I quit my GPR program after 6 months about a week ago. I, by official standards, left on good terms. I am writing this to cleanse my mind and with the hope to help what I know are many GPR residents that are unhappy.

What Dr. Dai wrote about resigning from a GPR is pretty much right on...
1) Think about it first. I considered leaving after 2 months of being there. The four extra months I stayed gave me time to conclude it was the right move and also gave me 4 more months of GPR experience.
2) If you need the program for licensure, it is unwise to leave. It is probably easier to get a license through the program than to attempt to take a certification exam outside of dental school.
3) Understand that you will most likely never get accepted to any program that uses PASS or MATCH ever again. In fact, the rules state that you can not use these application services for two years after leaving, period. So if you ever wanted to be an orthodontist, you have to accept that that is no longer an option.
4) Don't leave without somewhere to go! I've talked to a some residents who just left and then realized, "holy ****, I need a license, malpractice insurance, health insurance, an f-in job, DEA registration,...", dumb...
5) If you do decide to leave, be honest, don't apologize for things that aren't your fault, remember that everything happens for a reason, and that you will be okay.
6) You will always have to live with the knowledge that you quit your GPR; tangibly exhibited by the fact that you will not receive a certificate.

The following is program specific, so don't assume every program is like this, but know that some are.

So why did I leave? Generally? I was unhappy every morning that I woke up because I hated where I was going everyday. I hated call. I hated that the hospital basically used me as an employee with "Dr." on his name. I hated that I was not doing much actual general dentistry. I hated knowing that I had a marketable skill that I was not applying. And I had trouble handling the long hours, clinic hours each day with in house on-call once a week for a total of over 60 hours in the hospital.

When I found myself in the dental clinic we worked from 9 to 12 and were scheduled 9 patients in this time of which about 7 usually showed. After lunch we worked from 1 to 5 and were scheduled 13 patients during this time of which 10 usually showed. On top of this, OMS frequently sent emergencies over. This was too many patients. My record was 21 in 8 hours of sitting in the chair, but my average was about 15 a day. I felt this was unreasonable and I felt I was being used as for the clinic basically gets revenue from the total number of patients seen. With 20 minutes per patient I was truly unable to improve my clinical skills in that environment, and was forced into doing cursory exams, denture impressions, and quick fillings. If I wanted to do a nice fixed procedure, I always could, but would then put myself back by 2 or 3 patients.

In terms of the educational value of the program, the number one benefit that I gained was in my production value. Getting through 15 patients a day does wonders for your speed, which in the real world = money. I also gained previously unhad experiences restoring implants and doing minor flap surgeries. Although some might be into this, I was unhappy that lectures always revolved around oral surgery and not general dentistry. None the less, I did gained significant knowledge regarding oral surgery, despite the fact that I will never really need to apply that knowledge. Most importantly, the program helped me realize how to handle intense situations by acting professionally and confidently as a Doctor/ dentist.

I very much disliked the non-dental related aspects of the job. Being on call exposes the resident to many medical situations that have little to do with general dentistry. For example, extra-oral suturing and facial fracture diagnosing. Also, the 2 week rotations (er, pediatric dentistry, anesthesia, internal medicine, and OMS) have little to do with general dentistry if anything. If you are into those type of experiences, then perhaps a GPR is for you. In my personal experience the remaining 6 months for me would have involved 2 weeks in the er, 2 months with pediatric dentistry, 2 weeks with OMS, and two weeks vacation. Thus leaving only 2 and a half months of actual general dentistry. It made me reconsider how I was benefiting from the program.

With almost zero turn over time, I have found a nice new job. I love what I'm doing now and I earn a representative salary. Not that the experience is out of my mind, but I have happily accepted that the decision was right for me.

Yes, I stress that graduating dentists truly examine the options open to them. In retrospec, I absolutely should have done an AEGD. The mistake I made was made a year ago when I chose GPR over AEGD and actually didn't even consider going out into the real world. I remember actually saying to my girlfriend, "'I wish I could do an AEGD because I'll get better clinical experiences, but I can't do it cuz I just won't make enough money." I thought that the hospital GPR experiences would be interesting then. But how right you are, Dr. Phan, they are down right embarassing and time wasting.

Another problem I made that I realize now, has to do with pressures of senior year dental school. It seems like everyone is graduating early and applying to specialty programs or going to work at pre-arranged positions, getting married, having kids, or just generally had somewhere to go. I was in the top half of a large class. I had great relationships with faculty and my patients. I graduated a little early and very much enjoyed dental school. But I did not know what to do when it ended. I'm 25, in school as far as I can remember... So I panicked (sp?) and started applying to GPR's in December without realizing that slowing down and truly understanding that the decisions I was making were being made through the pressures of wanting to be like everyone else and were not nessessarily right for who I am.

Other things about the program I was in, that were red flags that I chose to overlook...
1) the program director and program secretary that interviewed me in december of last year, both quit one month before the program began. They had told me things that were not true when I got there, specifically about implant placement training. I don't know if they would have been true if they were there, but I tend to beleive they would have been. We didn't get a new director until one month into the program. He was a very nice person and was a benefit to the program because of that.
2) Hospitals in dirty, poor areas, generally have clinics and programs that reflect that.
3) Last year 1 resident quit the GPR on bad circumstances.
4) Two years ago all 5 GPR residents quit.

So lastly, make sure you guys don't make the same mistake I did. Make sure you know the a GPR falls some where in between striving to be a medical doctor and pretending not to be dentist. This is a great spot for aspiring Oral Surgeons, not too great for aspiring family dentists.

This little ditty does ramble, but it came from the heart. Good luck to all young dentists out there!

 

[lnn2]

From my personal experience, the assistants at one post grad program did not treat incoming residents well at all! Infact, they TOLD them what burs to use, and say things like "open that wall up or where is your anatomy, or that's the wrong procedure" INFRONT of the patients. I am quite sure my fellow residents who know me and read this thread will no doubt tell you that this is true! I once had an assistant who took the handle of the mirror and started to hit on my handpiece if she feels that I choose the wrong bur INFRONT of the patient!!!

I don't know whether to feel bad for what you had gone through OR start yelling, damn, man, grow some b@lls and act like a man!
They're the f-ing ASSISTANTS and you're a DOCTOR/DENTIST. You're in charge, not them. I can understand if that was your professor/mentor but the f-ing assistant?! In dental school and residency, the only thing you can do is bending over, look back and smile whenever they ask but ONLY to the professors/mentors/chief...I don't know that you were really that clueless new grad at that time but still you were/are a damn doctor, and those were just assistants. They probably don't even have a GED! They know what burs to use, anatomy, wrong procedure...because they went to dental school? not you? Can you imagine a surgical nurse telling a surgical doc what to do, where to cut?!
Having vented that, I do share similar experience with those type of DAs in a corporate dental mill. When I first started, a couple DAs acted like they own me, telling me rx pain meds, abx, when I should or shouldn't treat a med compromised patient....you name it. I put those b!tches in their places. I told them that I OWN them whenever they're in the op. Their jobs were to shut up and keep the damn tooth dried, patients from choking with water/saliva and get me whatever instrument I need. It's amazing what a boot up their @ss can do. Things changed 180degree. They turned around and kiss my @ss. Doctor this and doctor that! blahh blaahh blahh.

 

[lnn2]

So why did I leave? Generally? I was unhappy every morning that I woke up because I hated where I was going everyday. I hated call. I hated that the hospital basically used me as an employee with "Dr." on his name. I hated that I was not doing much actual general dentistry. I hated knowing that I had a marketable skill that I was not applying. And I had trouble handling the long hours, clinic hours each day with in house on-call once a week for a total of over 60 hours in the hospital.

what's your "marketable skill"?!

I guess that you had to learn it the hard way. GPR is not a dental school program! I believe that you had the definition of General dentistry all wrong. General dentistry involves a little bit of everything and anything. That's why it's called "general"!

The main reason why people are not happy in AEGD or GPR programs is that they use it as:
1. A backup plan, in case they don't get into a specialty program.
2. Due to lack of clinical competence. They don't think that they're ready for the real world! Hence, the AEGD or GPR programs. What they've failed to realize is that if they were a clueless 4th yr student, not knowing what bur to use, ideal crown prep, proper way of endo instrumentation, using proper extraction instruments, techniques...then how are you going to learn that in AEGD or GPR? They won't spoon fed you. You're on your own. And then you get yelled at for doing stupid things.
3. Still don't know what to do post-grad so they chose AEGD, GPR program buying time.
4. A pathological whiner. They whined about the dental school, clinical instructors...They'll whine again about work load and hrs, professors, chief resident...Well, suck it up, bend over and try to make the best of it. You might even learn something and even enjoy it! (I'm only talking about dentistry here!)

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

I don't know whether to feel bad for what you had gone through OR start yelling, damn, man, grow some b@lls and act like a man!
They're the f-ing ASSISTANTS and you're a DOCTOR/DENTIST. You're in charge, not them. I can understand if that was your professor/mentor but the f-ing assistant?! In dental school and residency, the only thing you can do is bending over, look back and smile whenever they ask but ONLY to the professors/mentors/chief...I don't know that you were really that clueless new grad at that time but still you were/are a damn doctor, and those were just assistants. They probably don't even have a GED! They know what burs to use, anatomy, wrong procedure...because they went to dental school? not you? Can you imagine a surgical nurse telling a surgical doc what to do, where to cut?!
Having vented that, I do share similar experience with those type of DAs in a corporate dental mill. When I first started, a couple DAs acted like they own me, telling me rx pain meds, abx, when I should or shouldn't treat a med compromised patient....you name it. I put those b!tches in their places. I told them that I OWN them whenever they're in the op. Their jobs were to shut up and keep the damn tooth dried, patients from choking with water/saliva and get me whatever instrument I need. It's amazing what a boot up their @ss can do. Things changed 180degree. They turned around and kiss my @ss. Doctor this and doctor that! blahh blaahh blahh.

Amen to that.

 

[pfmprep]

marketable skill = dentistry

Much like a certified electrician has a marketable skill, ie installing code satisfying wiring, dentists have a marketable skill, ie tooth carpentry.

To further clarify, by marketable I mean profitable or able to earn a living from; by skill I mean a trade

Hence, at the time, I had a marketable skill that I was not applying.

To further sift through your confusion...

You wrote, "I guess that you had to learn it the hard way. GPR is not a dental school program! I believe that you had the definition of General dentistry all wrong. General dentistry involves a little bit of everything and anything. That's why it's called "general"! "

This comment isn't too far off, or rather at least it's not a fowl ball. GPR is not anything close to a dental school program! In fact I'd be hard pressed to say that it's even based on general dentistry. I would define general dentistry as, but not limited to, operative procedures, endodontic procedures, fixed procedures, diagnostic procedures, removable procedures, implant procedures, oral hygiene instruction, surgical procedures, pediactric procedures, procedures regarding medically compromised patients, and periodontal procedures. There is a fine line between a general dentist and a "dental practitioner limiting too". So I don't believe I was confused as to the definition of general dentistry, but as to the definition of a GPR.

As for the rest of your post, I believe it also commands some attention.


The main reason why people are not happy in AEGD or GPR programs is that they use it as:
1. A backup plan, in case they don't get into a specialty program.

Generally = exactly!
Personally = Never wanted to specialize. There is an obvious answer to this question, so when retaliating, please don't make yourself look stupid, and understand that I already know it; why specialize when you can perform the same procedures as a general dentist?


2. Due to lack of clinical competence. They don't think that they're ready for the real world! Hence, the AEGD or GPR programs. What they've failed to realize is that if they were a clueless 4th yr student, not knowing what bur to use, ideal crown prep, proper way of endo instrumentation, using proper extraction instruments, techniques...then how are you going to learn that in AEGD or GPR? They won't spoon fed you. You're on your own. And then you get yelled at for doing stupid things.

generally= Anyone who could stand themselves as a clueless dental student, should never be a dentist.
personally= I wish the chemistry and physics of dentistry was taught more in dental school. I found many instructors who could teach me on the proper design of an anterior PFM prep, however very few of them could give a reasonable answer to the answer why. I was always disappointed by this.


3. Still don't know what to do post-grad so they chose AEGD, GPR program buying time.

generally= this is a similar topic as you first point
personally= exactly what I did. It took time for me to convince myself that I was finally a professional and no longer a student.

4. A pathological whiner. They whined about the dental school, clinical instructors...They'll whine again about work load and hrs, professors, chief resident...Well, suck it up, bend over and try to make the best of it. You might even learn something and even enjoy it! (I'm only talking about dentistry here!)

generally = I hope these people are zoned out early in any career!
personally = I am aware that as a man, I tend to fight the systems more than others. However, I'm keenly aware of what side of the line I'm on, ie fighter vs whiner. My opinions come from a confident, competent, capricious, fastidious, yet occasionally quixotic young man, and must be regarded as such.

 

[ItsGavinC]

dentists have a marketable skill, ie tooth carpentry.

If our profession becomes one of mere tooth mechanics, then we're screwed. ANYBODY can be a "tooth carpenter," as you put it. What you're paid to do is to be a doctor of the oral cavity.

All that GPR stuff, although it didn't interest you, should have made you a better clinician--at the minimum it gives you an extensive background from which to draw upon when compromised patients sit in your chair, or when you are discussing issues with other healthcare professionals.

 

[WestCoast]

If our profession becomes one of mere tooth mechanics, then we're screwed. ANYBODY can be a "tooth carpenter," as you put it. What you're paid to do is to be a doctor of the oral cavity.

All that GPR stuff, although it didn't interest you, should have made you a better clinician--at the minimum it gives you an extensive background from which to draw upon when compromised patients sit in your chair, or when you are discussing issues with other healthcare professionals.

exactly. what annoys the most are when people start saying learning all the basic science is useless, because we as dentists aren't going to be using it in private practice. and they argue that all thats important is to drill and fill. following that stupid logic, my question then is, so whats the difference between us and lab techs?? is it me, or do a lot of these people simply choose to be stupid and once they graduate?

 

[aphistis]

exactly. what annoys the most are when people start saying learning all the basic science is useless, because we as dentists aren't going to be using it in private practice. and they argue that all thats important is to drill and fill. following that stupid logic, my question then is, so whats the difference between us and lab techs?? is it me, or do a lot of these people simply choose to be stupid and once they graduate?

I'm not so sure they didn't choose to be stupid before they graduated.

 

[esclavo]

If our profession becomes one of mere tooth mechanics, then we're screwed. ANYBODY can be a "tooth carpenter," as you put it. What you're paid to do is to be a doctor of the oral cavity.

All that GPR stuff, although it didn't interest you, should have made you a better clinician--at the minimum it gives you an extensive background from which to draw upon when compromised patients sit in your chair, or when you are discussing issues with other healthcare professionals.

Good point. Hopefully this guy won't be that dentist who shucks some teeth on a patient with thrombocytopenia and a count of 28,000. Sound sad? What was even more sad is I called the dentist up and asked her why she thought she could take 6 teeth out on a patient with a platelet count of 28,000 and then after he bled for 3 days, she thought she could send him to the ED. Too ashamed I guess to refer him to the oral surgeon after she already screwed up. She said, and I quote, "those were anterior teeth and I am good at extractions"!!!!!! Well honey, are you good at clotting off alveolar bleeds? Me either, that is why I wouldn't take those teeth out until I had done a little platelet supplementation. I wonder who she thought the patient would see when she sent him to the ED.....a hematologist? Get real.

I can see that someone might be deceived from the name "general" in GPR (should be "hospital-dentistry" not GPR) but ask a few questions and do some research besides flinching when you're reading a booklet. This poor dentist guy could have avoided some serious personal heartache....good luck in private practice... don't forget what you learned in the hospital....