Race classification to med schools: possibly controversial thread

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Here's some good reads on the myths of affirmative action. I'll pick out a few that pertains to this conversation.

Myth is that we can achieve diversity using other means. Could the Michigan Law School, the undergraduate program, or the Medical School obtain a racially diverse class with a "colorblind" process, by placing greater emphasis on socioeconomic factors? The answer is no; racial diversity and socioeconomic diversity are not the same thing (because, in short, most of our poor people in this country are white). When a colorblind process emphasizing socioeconomic diversity was adopted at the law school at the University of California at Berkeley, African American enrollment in the entering class fell by approximately 60 percent.

In his opinion in Bakke, Justice Blackmun wrote (and he was joined in this by Justices Brennan, White, and Marshall), "I suspect that it would be impossible to arrange an affirmative-action program in a racially neutral way and have it successful. To ask that this be so is to demand the impossible. In order to get beyond racism, we must first take account of race. There is no other way. And in order to treat some persons equally, we must treat them differently. We cannot - we dare not - let the Equal Protection Clause - perpetuate racial supremacy." That was right in 1978, and it is still right today.

Some schools in other states have tried a "colorblind" admissions process in which they accept the students in the top four percent or perhaps ten or twenty percentage of each high school in the state. There are several problems with this approach: first, this approach is completely ineffective for graduate schools and professional schools. Second, it would result in admitting some top students from weak high schools who may not be academically prepared to do the work, and reject very able students who are below the cut-off at a very strong school. Third, all opportunity for individual evaluation and assessment of the candidate is lost. And so the process is color-blind, but blind to the applicants themselves as well! And fourth, for such an approach to work, de facto segregation would have to continue in high schools, which, given the purposes of such an approach, would be ironic in the extreme. The conclusion is clear: the best way to admit a racially diverse class is, not surprisingly, to use an admission process that uses race as a factor -- the approach followed by virtually every selective college and university admissions for the past thirty years.


If, in the future, colleges and universities are not permitted to consider race as a factor in their admissions processes, it will have a devastating effect on their ability to assemble a diverse student body. It is likely that the number of minority students enrolled at universities would decline significantly. The experience at California's flagship public universities, Berkeley and the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA), bears out this prediction. Admission levels of underrepresented minorities---Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans---remain well below where they were prior to Proposition 209. At Berkeley, they are down 44 percent and at UCLA they are down 36 percent from pre-Proposition 209 levels. And the decision will not affect Michigan alone: all public institutions across the country would be affected, and all private higher education institutions as well, given that, under Title VI, those schools are prohibited from discriminating on the basis of race - and other things - in the admissions process, and an adverse decision in the Michigan cases would in effect change the statutory definition of race discrimination in admissions.



Myth is that this policy, well-intentioned and even important as it is, materially diminishes the likelihood of a white student being admitted, and is therefore unfair. This notion that enormous numbers of whites are being denied admission because of the preferential treatment of under-represented minorities is simply false. In fact, admissions policies such as Michigan's do not meaningfully affect a white student's chances of admission. The numbers of minority applicants are extremely small compared to the numbers of white students who apply to universities across the country. It is not mathematically possible that the small numbers of minority students who apply and are admitted are displacing a significant number of white students. In their book The Shape of the River, William Bowen, former president of Princeton, and Derek Bok, former president of Harvard, looked at the nationwide statistics concerning admissions to selective universities. They determined that even if all selective universities implemented a race-blind admissions system, the probability of being admitted for a white student would only go from 25 percent to 26.2 percent.

The source of this whole problem of admissions affirmative action is, in large part, the need for remediation of K-12 public education in under-resourced school systems. Addressing that issue, however, and seeing the educational benefits will take many years, during which we will lose several generations of students; in the meantime, colleges and universities have had decisions to make -- classes of students to admit.

The effects of unequal - and inadequate -- funding of public school on the quality of education for racial and ethnic minority students are hard to overstate. And those effects are, in large part, the source of the problem that the admissions affirmative action leg up seeks to address -- making sure, as we do so, that we don't take students who can't do the work. Renowned researcher Linda Darling-Hammond notes that the wealthiest ten percent of school districts spend almost ten times more than the poorest ten percent. And poor and minority students are disproportionately concentrated in the least well-funded schools. Predominantly minority schools have difficulty hiring the most qualified teachers, which, she has concluded, is a major contributor to the students' achievement gap. One study of 900 Texas school districts found that, "holding socioeconomic status (SES) constant, the wide variability in teachers' qualifications accounted for almost all of the variation in black and white students' test scores." In general, Darling-Hammond notes, "urban schools suffer from lower expenditures of state and local dollars per pupil, higher student-teacher ratios and student-staff ratios, larger class sizes, lower teacher experience, and poorer teacher qualifications." Those factors are, I think, important to keep in mind as we consider the disappointed majority applicant.

http://www.columbia.edu/node/8321.html



Myth : The only way to create a color-blind society is to adopt color-blind policies.

Although this statement sounds intuitively plausible, the reality is that color-blind policies often put racial minorities at a disadvantage. For instance, all else being equal, color-blind seniority systems tend to protect White workers against job layoffs, because senior employees are usually White (Ezorsky, 1991). Likewise, color-blind college admissions favor White students because of their earlier educational advantages. Unless preexisting inequities are corrected or otherwise taken into account, color-blind policies do not correct racial injustice -- they reinforce it.

Myth : Affirmative action may have been necessary 30 years ago, but the playing field is fairly level today.

Despite the progress that has been made, the playing field is far from level. Women continue to earn 77 cents for every male dollar (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 2010). Black people continue to have twice the unemployment rate of White people, twice the rate of infant mortality, and just over half the proportion of people who attend four years or more of college (see Figure 1). In fact, without affirmative action the percentage of Black students at many selective schools would drop to only 2% of the student body (Bowen & Bok, 1998). This would effectively choke off Black access to top universities and severely restrict progress toward racial equality.


Myth : If Jewish people and Asian Americans can rapidly advance economically, African Americans should be able to do the same.

This comparison ignores the unique history of discrimination against Black people in America. Over the past four centuries, Black history has included nearly 250 years of slavery, 100 years of legalized discrimination, and only 50 years of anything else. Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority. To expect Blacks to show the same upward mobility as Jews and Asians is to deny the historical and social reality that Black people face.



Myth : You can't cure discrimination with discrimination.

The problem with this myth is that it uses the same word -- discrimination -- to describe two very different things. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action is an effort to overcome prejudicial treatment through inclusion. The most effective way to cure society of exclusionary practices is to make special efforts at inclusion, which is exactly what affirmative action does. The logic of affirmative action is no different than the logic of treating a nutritional deficiency with vitamin supplements. For a healthy person, high doses of vitamin supplements may be unnecessary or even harmful, but for a person whose system is out of balance, supplements are an efficient way to restore the body's balance.


http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-bork/dispelling-myths-about-af_b_989553.html

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i haven't bothered to read what the adcoms here have said about "discrimination" that has gotten @Cyndaquil MD and @Womb Raider so worked up, but if they haven't come out and said it plainly, i'll say it for them: yes, race, or the color of one's skin is a factor in the admissions decisions at medical schools. people who support these policies, like me (i'm white btw) are not delusional about it. i still submit that "discrimination" implies some sort of unfairness or injustice, hence the definition i gave (clearly @Womb Raider's definition implies this, or else it wouldn't BE unfair...) . and yes, the justness of such a policy depends on the context of the society around it. this isn't a "feeble-minded" opinion, contrary to what your garden variety dorm-room libertarian might think, it's literally the position of about half the country, admissions committees everywhere, and the supreme court of the united states. feigning shock that someone would express such an opinion is disingenuous
 
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$5 on aloft/beachside

You're telling me if my account was 5 years old and had 10,000 posts, you'd actually agree with my points?
I don't get why you're so fixated on this. Did it occur to you that people have a life outside of SDN?
 
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You're telling me if my account was 5 years old and had 10,000 posts, you'd actually agree with my points?
I don't get why you're so fixated on this. Did it occur to you that people have a life outside of SDN?

That is not at all what he said.
 
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lol Your comment fails to address the point I made and instead tries to steer the conversation to something irrelevant. You're just too stubborn to admit you're wrong. But let me be helpful: next time, don't preface your statements with other points if you don't have the gall to back them.

You made a point? That's news mang.

What's irrelevant? A school's mission?

UCSD:

The Admissions Committee selects applicants for matriculation who have demonstrated the personal qualities of intelligence, maturity, integrity, dedication to the ideal of service to society and who are best suited for meeting the educational goals of the school, whether in a field of primary care specialization or other discipline of medicine. The school desires students with diverse interests and backgrounds and is committed to expanding opportunities in medical education for individuals from socioeconomic and educationally disadvantaged backgrounds.

Harvard: http://hms.harvard.edu/about-hms/deans-corner/diversity-harvard-medical-school

Albany medical college: Our mission statement here at Albany Medical College and Albany Medical Center specifically states that we have a responsibility to educate health care professionals from demographically diverse backgrounds. Consistent with this philosophy, we encourage qualified underrepresented candidates of color and candidates from disadvantaged backgrounds to apply to Albany Medical College.

Those are the first three schools I searched for. Try all the others ones and get the same response.

No one is saying that race isn't part of the process. Everyone is saying that there aren't two distinct sets of selection criteria. Yes the AAMC panels show that there might be a difference between the average white matriculant, asian matriculant, and african american matriculant. However, to say that there's an entirely different process of selection is a fallacy. That's what you keep missing. No one has said that race isn't part of the equation. You're trying to make it only about race. Diversity includes other things as well, which is why adcomm members keep going back to it. It's the same reason why a white applicant with slightly higher scores can get rejected while one with lower scores but more hardship might get in.

You pretty clearly think that this is bs, so it's hard to argue with someone that just disregards the answer because they're so self righteous about knowing it already. You don't care about historical context, great! Society does.

Great, you figured it out. Go pat yourself on the back and have a cookie. The process is unchanged. Congratulations.

Want to take a look at those charts again?

Asian: https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/factstable25-3.pdf
White: https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf
African American/ Black: https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/factstable25-2.pdf

All the way in the bottom right.

Asian: 42.7% accepted (8,397/19,678)
White: 45.9% accepted (23,758/51,747)
African American/Black: 37.0% accepted (2,856/7,727)

Stratifying by race, African American/Black applicants are still the least likely to be accepted to medical school.
What are you so outraged about exactly?

You have no idea what the rest of the application looks like for the people that are admitted. As an aside, I remember seeing data that african americans did worse on the SAT compared to white test takers even after controlling for SES. The 'boost' you see in admissions for undergrad can potentially be counted for by just a 'correction' for a distribution like this. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for the MCAT...
 
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I think this also proves that an ORM cannot be discriminated against in the admissions process.

So, let's agree to disagree and call it as such:

You're not going to convince me at AA is bad.
I'm not going to convince you that AA has a place in admissions.
I'm not going to convince you that AA is not discriminatory.
I'm OK with AA-based admissions, and you 're not. But medical schools are, and the Supreme Court is, too.




You made a point? That's news mang.

What's irrelevant? A school's mission?

UCSD:

The Admissions Committee selects applicants for matriculation who have demonstrated the personal qualities of intelligence, maturity, integrity, dedication to the ideal of service to society and who are best suited for meeting the educational goals of the school, whether in a field of primary care specialization or other discipline of medicine. The school desires students with diverse interests and backgrounds and is committed to expanding opportunities in medical education for individuals from socioeconomic and educationally disadvantaged backgrounds.

Harvard: http://hms.harvard.edu/about-hms/deans-corner/diversity-harvard-medical-school

Albany medical college: Our mission statement here at Albany Medical College and Albany Medical Center specifically states that we have a responsibility to educate health care professionals from demographically diverse backgrounds. Consistent with this philosophy, we encourage qualified underrepresented candidates of color and candidates from disadvantaged backgrounds to apply to Albany Medical College.

Those are the first three schools I searched for. Try all the others ones and get the same response.

No one is saying that race isn't part of the process. Everyone is saying that there aren't two distinct sets of selection criteria. Yes the AAMC panels show that there might be a difference between the average white matriculant, asian matriculant, and african american matriculant. However, to say that there's an entirely different process of selection is a fallacy. That's what you keep missing. No one has said that race isn't part of the equation. You're trying to make it only about race. Diversity includes other things as well, which is why adcomm members keep going back to it. It's the same reason why a white applicant with slightly higher scores can get rejected while one with lower scores but more hardship might get in.

You pretty clearly think that this is bs, so it's hard to argue with someone that just disregards the answer because they're so self righteous about knowing it already. You don't care about historical context, great! Society does.

Great, you figured it out. Go pat yourself on the back and have a cookie. The process is unchanged. Congratulations.

Want to take a look at those charts again?

Asian: https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/factstable25-3.pdf
White: https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf
African American/ Black: https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/factstable25-2.pdf

All the way in the bottom right.

Asian: 42.7% accepted (8,397/19,678)
White: 45.9% accepted (23,758/51,747)
African American/Black: 37.0% accepted (2,856/7,727)

Stratifying by race, African American/Black applicants are still the least likely to be accepted to medical school.
What are you so outraged about exactly?

You have no idea what the rest of the application looks like for the people that are admitted. As an aside, I remember seeing data that african americans did worse on the SAT compared to white test takers even after controlling for SES. The 'boost' you see in admissions for undergrad can potentially be counted for by just a 'correction' for a distribution like this. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for the MCAT...
 
Says the guy working on ban #3 who just can't stay away?

Okay I have to admit, THIS is even more interesting than the thread topic. You somehow can't process the fact that a user who 1) is new and 2) disagrees with you can actually make valid points without being a troll. Should I have spammed the allo forum to rack up a few dozen comments before commenting on this thread so your paranoia can be laid to rest?
I mean, if it helps you sleep better at night, you can pretend that I'm aloft/beachside. I'll pretend you're Dermviser's 3rd alt.
 
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Okay I have to admit, THIS is even more interesting than the thread topic. You somehow can't process the fact that a user who 1) is new and 2) disagrees with you can actually make valid points without being a troll. Should I have spammed the allo forum to rack up a few dozen comments before commenting on this thread so your paranoia can be laid to rest?
I mean, if it helps you sleep better at night, you can pretend that I'm aloft/beachside. I'll pretend your Dermviser's 3rd alt.
Your fourth post on this site says this:
I am not fixated. Look at the damn chart and tell me I'm making this stuff up. Every time I bring up GPA/MCAT, adcoms' excuses are always "IT'S A HOLISTIC REVIEW~", which leads me to ask: you're telling me every single URM applicant had something that made them somehow better suited for medical school?

Yet you are a new member with no posting history prior to this thread. Have you been discussing this topic with adcoms in person?
 
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This thread has taken an interesting (and much needed) turn... carry on :corny:
 
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The alternative of you not being a respawn is actually worse. That would just mean you're some random petulant child who joined this site to do nothing other than chase goro around from thread to thread like a dog yapping and chasing after a car.
Haha, okay, I see we've started resorting to direct insults. To quote what you said earlier, isn't that a TOS violation? Or is it only a TOS violation when someone else does it?

Why limit my criticism to just one thread? Seems like you've been trying to call me a troll in both as well. But I guess rules don't apply to you...
 
Your fourth post on this site says this:


Yet you are a new member with no posting history prior to this thread. Have you been discussing this topic with adcoms in person?
You read my fourth post but not my first? I bring up GPA/MCAT in my very first post and so do other users. The adcoms are responding to that issue.

I'm not sure if that last statement was a joke. Why yes, I do in fact spend my free time discussing these topics IN PERSON with the adcoms! I know who they are in real life!
 
You read my fourth post but not my first? I bring up GPA/MCAT in my very first post and so do other users. The adcoms are responding to that issue.

I'm not sure if that last statement was a joke. Why yes, I do in fact spend my free time discussing these topics IN PERSON with the adcoms! I know who they are in real life!

Whatever you say man. Care to discuss the stuff I posted that actually pertains to the topic of the thread?
 
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Whatever you say man. Care to discuss the stuff I posted that actually pertains to the topic of the thread?
You're the one who decided to join the others to pick at my account status and post history. NOW you want to stay on topic?

Oh this is fun. I can play this game too.
Here's some good reads on the problems with affirmative action. I'll pick out a few that pertains to this conversation.

...in her majority opinion Sandra Day O’Connor said that the court expected the use of racial preferences to further that interest would, within 25 years, no longer be necessary. Since John Roberts became chief justice in 2005 the court has grown increasingly sceptical of race-conscious laws. In a 2007 opinion Justice Roberts wrote: “The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”

...A slew of affirmative-action programmes aimed at correcting that discrimination-in-operation followed. They were intended to boost minority employment and remedy systemic discrimination in hiring and admissions: both worthy endeavours. But because race-based affirmative action is a blunt and gameable instrument, it often helps successful or well-connected applicants rather than truly needy ones.

Real progress was made during the era of affirmative action. A 1998 study conducted by William Bowen and Derek Bok (former presidents of Princeton and Harvard) found that in 1960 5.4% of blacks between the ages of 25 and 29 had graduated from college; by 1995 that share had jumped to 15.4%. Blacks went from barely 1% of law students in 1960 and 2.2% of medical students in 1964 to 7.5% and 8.1% by 1995. They almost doubled their representation among the nation’s doctors and almost tripled it among America’s engineers and lawyers.
But that was not all due to affirmative action. Thomas Sowell, an economist, points out that black education levels began rising, and poverty levels falling, as blacks started to move out of the South in the 1940s and 1950s. And even if Mr Bowen and Mr Bok are correct, and affirmative action did greatly benefit blacks in the first couple of generations after segregation, it does not follow that it should remain in place today, when most blacks at university are from middle- or upper-class families and many are recent immigrants never touched by pre-1960s discrimination.

Hence the shift in goals from remedying racial injustice to fostering diversity: hence the insistence of university administrators that race is just part of an “overall holistic view” of each candidate. Not everyone believes them. During oral arguments in Ms Fisher’s case Sonia Sotomayor, a justice who has acknowledged that she benefited from affirmative action in her early career, said that the UT-Austin’s programme “sounds awfully like a quota to me”.

In 1997 Thomas Espenshade of Princeton analysed the scores on SATs, a widely used test for college admissions, that different races needed in order to get into private universities. He found that Asian-Americans’ SAT scores had to exceed those of whites by 140 points out of 1,600, those of Hispanics by 270 points and those of blacks by 450 points. A study by Mark Perry of the American Enterprise Institute, a think-tank, found that black students with average grades and test scores were almost three times more likely than Asians with similarly average qualifications to get into medical school.

...Universities can improve their recruiting efforts to find talented low-income students. They can provide intensive summer programmes for students from shaky academic backgrounds. They can free up more spaces for deserving poor students by removing preferences awarded to the children of alumni. Administrators may find it harder and costlier to sort through such socioeconomic data rather than just looking at which race box an applicant has ticked. But they should do so.

http://www.economist.com/news/brief...sed-preferences-around-world-we-look-americas


...What's gone wrong? The basic problem is that a racist past cannot be undone through more racism. Race-conscious programs betray Martin Luther King's dream of a color-blind community, and the heightened racial sensitivity they cause is a source of acrimony and tension instead of healing.

https://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=43448
 
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You're the one who decided to join the others to pick at my account status and post history. NOW you want to stay on topic?
No, I wanted to stay on topic when I posted the first time. You ignored my post and you are ignoring it again. Did you read anything I posted or are you just going to play games? You wanted to have a discussion, I posted some stuff. Discuss it.
 
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So I discovered my fatal error: I've been using the term 'discrimination' with its colloquial meaning and actually thought others would do the same. I should've known you people would somehow distort the meaning, tailoring it to your own ends. So here's a compromise I think we can all agree on: I will re-word my original request and replace the word 'discriminate' with the basics.

"For those of you that support this, all I am looking for is a conscious acknowledgement that you are willingly and in good-faith supporting giving bonuses to individuals based on skin color using utilitarian reasoning."

(Notice this has nothing to do with whether or not it's justified or considered fair, so please, admit what I ask and I will leave in peace).

I look forward to the slew of responses.:laugh:
 
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I love how @Mr Interesting's post at the top of this page was completely ignored by those who keep beating this subject to death.... :rolleyes:
 
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I love how @Mr Interesting's post at the top of this page was completely ignored by those who keep beating this subject to death.... :rolleyes:

Myth is that we can achieve diversity using other means.

Anyone that claims to know absolutist statements like this is an idiot, end of story. No one can predict the future, and no one can possibly know that all possible alternatives would fail.

Myth is that this policy, well-intentioned and even important as it is, materially diminishes the likelihood of a white student being admitted, and is therefore unfair. This notion that enormous numbers of whites are being denied admission because of the preferential treatment of under-represented minorities is simply false...They determined that even if all selective universities implemented a race-blind admissions system, the probability of being admitted for a white student would only go from 25 percent to 26.2 percent.

This has nothing to do with white people crying. Asian applicants are actually the ones that suffer the most harm. Furthermore, it isn't about the amount of harm done (I don't care if it's a .00001% bonus) this is about the principle of equality. I've already discussed this problem.

The source of this whole problem of admissions affirmative action is, in large part, the need for remediation of K-12 public education in under-resourced school systems. Addressing that issue, however, and seeing the educational benefits will take many years, during which we will lose several generations of students; in the meantime, colleges and universities have had decisions to make -- classes of students to admit.
Hey would you look at that, someone is even proposing an alternative method of fixing the problem that was deemed impossible in Myth #1!! -Mind blown!!!-

Myth : The only way to create a color-blind society is to adopt color-blind policies.

Although this statement sounds intuitively plausible, the reality is that color-blind policies often put racial minorities at a disadvantage. For instance, all else being equal, color-blind seniority systems tend to protect White workers against job layoffs, because senior employees are usually White (Ezorsky, 1991). Likewise, color-blind college admissions favor White students because of their earlier educational advantages. Unless preexisting inequities are corrected or otherwise taken into account, color-blind policies do not correct racial injustice -- they reinforce it.

I don't even know where to start with this one.

Even if we did have a professional demographic that exactly matched the American demographic, the number of senior employees that are white would still far exceed those of minorities, because Whites are the majority in America...

The rest: seems to be a problem of educational system, which I would wager everyone in this thread believes needs improvement.

Myth : Affirmative action may have been necessary 30 years ago, but the playing field is fairly level today.
No one in this thread is saying this. Those of that do not support AA feel this way for other reasons (moral reasons, at least for me).

Myth : If Jewish people and Asian Americans can rapidly advance economically, African Americans should be able to do the same.

This comparison ignores the unique history of discrimination against Black people in America. Over the past four centuries, Black history has included nearly 250 years of slavery, 100 years of legalized discrimination, and only 50 years of anything else. Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority. To expect Blacks to show the same upward mobility as Jews and Asians is to deny the historical and social reality that Black people face.

Not really too related to what I was arguing... But I'm curious why Africans are given the same advantages as African Americans? Why don't we have separate race boxes for them? Are Africans automatically considered African Americans when they move to America? Convenient.

Myth : You can't cure discrimination with discrimination.

The problem with this myth is that it uses the same word -- discrimination -- to describe two very different things.

This is what the entire thread has been about so no comments needed.
 
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Not really too related to what I was arguing... But I'm curious why Africans are given the same advantages as African Americans? Why don't we have separate race boxes for them? Are Africans automatically considered African Americans when they move to America? Convenient.

Do you, in your everyday life, make a conscious effort to differentiate between Africans and African Americans? How about Latinos/Latinas born in a Central or South America? The likelihood is no.

That said, if one immigrates the U.S. and becomes a naturalized citizen then guess what? They are American. If they have children (before or after citizenship status is gained) their children are American (and hence the term Whatever American may be fitting).

If however, you are referring to those who have not yet moved towards the process of gaining citizenship here... well they are international students and I am sure they are treated as such by adcoms.
 
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Do you, in your everyday life, make a conscious effort to differentiate between Africans and African Americans? How about Latinos/Latinas born in a Central or South America? The likelihood is no.

That said, if one immigrates the U.S. and becomes a naturalized citizen then guess what? They are American. If they have children (before or after citizenship status is gained) their children are American (and hence the term Whatever American may be fitting).

If however, you are referring to those who have not yet moved towards the process of gaining citizenship here... well they are international students and I am sure they are treated as such by adcoms.
I only ask because the article that was cited uses the "unique history of discrimination against Black people in America." Why would/should a population coming from a different continent with a completely different culture receive the benefits created for the American Blacks? Many of the African immigrants are from wealthy, professional families that the article alludes to.
 
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They face the same discrimination whether they are African or African-American.
 
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I love how @Mr Interesting's post at the top of this page was completely ignored by those who keep beating this subject to death.... :rolleyes:

The other users were far more interested in my account so I'm ~so sorry~ for not addressing the huge textwall of drivel until later.
 
No, I wanted to stay on topic when I posted the first time. You ignored my post and you are ignoring it again. Did you read anything I posted or are you just going to play games? You wanted to have a discussion, I posted some stuff. Discuss it.
Womb Raider was kind enough to dignify your "myths" with a response. Your entire comment was just repeating the same issues that had already been talked about in this thread wrapped up in pretty rhetoric so it was utterly pointless of me to re-address every damn issue again. Hurray, you know how to copy and paste!

Did you read MY post? I copied and pasted a nice wall of text too.
 
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I only ask because the article that was cited uses the "unique history of discrimination against Black people in America." Why would/should a population coming from a completely different continent with a completely separate culture receive the benefits created for the American Blacks? Many of the African immigrants are from wealthy, professional families that the article alludes to.

That history of discrimination is certainly not unique to America. Did you like skip all of elementary school history? Come on bro.

Many African immigrants at NOT wealthy. They (or their children) usually create success when they come here (and that is only in limited instances like any OTHER immigrant group). Once they get here they are often subjected to their own set of discrimination: one for being a person of color and the other for being a non american.
 
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That history of discrimination is certainly not unique to America. Did you like skip all of elementary school history? Come on bro.

Many African immigrants at NOT wealthy. They (or their children) usually create success when they come here (and that is only in limited instances like any OTHER immigrant group). Once they get here they are often subjected to their own set of discrimination: one for being a person of color and the other for being a non american.

Jews, Italians, Catholics, Irish, Asians, and plenty other new groups of immigrants have faced discrimination and racism by the general population of the United States and did not receive affirmative action.

Yes, it is absolutely true that black people of any culture are often discriminated in non-black societies and many African immigrants had to deal with the legacy of colonialism. However, the difference between this and the Jim Crow and slavery that was a matter of policy by the United States government, is that the United States did not directly harm these recent immigrants as a government and, thus, do not owe them any reparation. It would be great if medical schools, colleges, and employers could level the playing field for every single person in terms of opportunities granted, but it will never realistically happen and there needs to be a line drawn. African Americans and Native Americans have been the societies most damaged by institutional racism in the United States by far, and, in my opinion, are the only groups that deserve any sort of boost.

I would much rather there be effective programs at increasing opportunity in early education and subsidizing college costs as a way of equaling the playing field without having the bar lowered statswise. I hated having people think I only got into my competitive university because of my ethinicity despite actually having the average stats to get in on my own, but I do recognize there is still a need for many others. I just wish people didn't try to fix outcomes before equalizing opportunity.

A quick glance at the MSAR will tell you that African and Caribbean students outnumber African American students in most medical schools, despite being a tiny fraction of the country's population. It seems the way Affirmative Action is implemented now, Asians and African Americans are the ones being the most harmed. But I guess it doesn't matter as long as it assuages some administrator's white guilt or helps the diversity numbers look good for US World and News.
 
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So I discovered my fatal error: I've been using the term 'discrimination' with its colloquial meaning and actually thought others would do the same. I should've known you people would somehow distort the meaning, tailoring it to your own ends. So here's a compromise I think we can all agree on: I will re-word my original request and replace the word 'discriminate' with the basics.

"For those of you that support this, all I am looking for is a conscious acknowledgement that you are willingly and in good-faith supporting giving bonuses to individuals based on skin color using utilitarian reasoning."

(Notice this has nothing to do with whether or not it's justified or considered fair, so please, admit what I ask and I will leave in peace).

I look forward to the slew of responses.:laugh:


Any bonus that might be given is not given on the basis of skin color. Do not equate race and ethnicity with skin color. I have had many students who would be classified as "white" or "Asian" under the US Census classification who have darker skin that some African-American and Hispanic students.

I would acknowledge that we make admission decision to meet the goal of recruiting and matriculating a diverse student body including the inclusion of African-American/Black and Hispanic students and other minorities who are under-represented in medicine.
 
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Jews, Italians, Catholics, Irish, Asians, and plenty other new groups of immigrants have faced discrimination and racism by the general population of the United States and did not receive affirmative action.

Yes, it is absolutely true that black people of any culture are often discriminated in non-black societies and many African immigrants had to deal with the legacy of colonialism. However, the difference between this and the Jim Crow and slavery that was a matter of policy by the United States government, is that the United States did not directly harm these recent immigrants as a government and, thus, do not owe them any reparation. It would be great if medical schools, colleges, and employers could level the playing field for every single person in terms of opportunities granted, but it will never realistically happen and there needs to be a line drawn. African Americans and Native Americans have been the societies most damaged by institutional racism in the United States by far, and, in my opinion, are the only groups that deserve any sort of boost.

I would much rather there be effective programs at increasing opportunity in early education and subsidizing college costs as a way of equaling the playing field without having the bar lowered statswise. I hated having people think I only got into my competitive university because of my ethinicity despite actually having the average stats to get in on my own, but I do recognize there is still a need for many others. I just wish people didn't try to fix outcomes before equalizing opportunity.

A quick glance at the MSAR will tell you that African and Caribbean students outnumber African American students in most medical schools, despite being a tiny fraction of the country's population. It seems the way Affirmative Action is implemented now, Asians and African Americans are the ones being the most harmed. But I guess it doesn't matter as long as it assuages some administrator's white guilt or helps the diversity numbers look good for US World and News.

This is a really good example of a post where although I disagree with your conclusion (that race should play a role in admissions) your post is still well thought out and reasoned and I can easily respect and understand someone having your opinion. Good luck to you whenever you apply.
 
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So I discovered my fatal error: I've been using the term 'discrimination' with its colloquial meaning and actually thought others would do the same. I should've known you people would somehow distort the meaning, tailoring it to your own ends. So here's a compromise I think we can all agree on: I will re-word my original request and replace the word 'discriminate' with the basics.

"For those of you that support this, all I am looking for is a conscious acknowledgement that you are willingly and in good-faith supporting giving bonuses to individuals based on skin color using utilitarian reasoning."

(Notice this has nothing to do with whether or not it's justified or considered fair, so please, admit what I ask and I will leave in peace).

I look forward to the slew of responses.:laugh:

lol The silence is deafening. You're not giving them enough room to wiggle out of this one.

So far there are 8 states in the US that have banned affirmative action. It's not a huge number but I think it's some progress at least.
Hopefully in the future, med schools will also have to comply but for now they have live in their little bubble.
 
lol The silence is deafening. You're not giving them enough room to wiggle out of this one.

So far there are 8 states in the US that have banned affirmative action. It's not a huge number but I think it's some progress at least.
Hopefully in the future, med schools will also have to comply but for now they have live in their little bubble.

There's silence because people are over the thread... Take a hint. Do you thrive on stuff like this?
 
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There's silence because people are over the thread... Take a hint. Do you thrive on stuff like this?

If you're "over it", why do you keep coming back to post? Stop watching the thread. Or can you not deal with not having the last word?
It doesn't matter if other people choose to be blind to the issue - it's still an issue and you, nor anyone else, can't diminish that by trying to wave it away.
 
If you're "over it", why do you keep coming back to post? Stop watching the thread. Or can you not deal with not having the last word?
It doesn't matter if other people choose to be blind to the issue - it's still an issue and you, nor anyone else, can't diminish that by trying to wave it away.

No one is trying to wave it away. The issue is very real and present, this has already been made obvious. You're arguing the same points hoping for different results, and guess what... That isn't going to happen.

So yes, I for one am "over" this thread.

P.S. SDN sends a notification each time someone responds...
 
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Anyone that claims to know absolutist statements like this is an idiot, end of story. No one can predict the future, and no one can possibly know that all possible alternatives would fail.



This has nothing to do with white people crying. Asian applicants are actually the ones that suffer the most harm. Furthermore, it isn't about the amount of harm done (I don't care if it's a .00001% bonus) this is about the principle of equality. I've already discussed this problem.


Hey would you look at that, someone is even proposing an alternative method of fixing the problem that was deemed impossible in Myth #1!! -Mind blown!!!-



I don't even know where to start with this one.

Even if we did have a professional demographic that exactly matched the American demographic, the number of senior employees that are white would still far exceed those of minorities, because Whites are the majority in America...

The rest: seems to be a problem of educational system, which I would wager everyone in this thread believes needs improvement.


No one in this thread is saying this. Those of that do not support AA feel this way for other reasons (moral reasons, at least for me).



Not really too related to what I was arguing... But I'm curious why Africans are given the same advantages as African Americans? Why don't we have separate race boxes for them? Are Africans automatically considered African Americans when they move to America? Convenient.



This is what the entire thread has been about so no comments needed.
I'm pretty disappointed with your entire response. Was hoping you'd actually give me a thoughtful response which would lead to all of us engaging in meaningful discussion. Silly me.

Womb Raider was kind enough to dignify your "myths" with a response. Your entire comment was just repeating the same issues that had already been talked about in this thread wrapped up in pretty rhetoric so it was utterly pointless of me to re-address every damn issue again. Hurray, you know how to copy and paste!

Did you read MY post? I copied and pasted a nice wall of text too.
He didn't respond to anything at all actually. If he was really kind he wouldn't have replied at all. That way he wouldn't have made me waste my time reading that thoughtless response. Some of these things have been discussed in this thread and they have been discussed in a million threads before this. They will continue to be discussed because there is a lot of inaccurate information out there. Yes, I posted a few excerpts from the articles with their links. I thought I made that clear when I prefaced my post with "Here's some good reads on the myths of affirmative action. I'll pick out a few that pertains to this conversation." I posted them on here because I knew if I posted the links you guys wouldn't read them. You in particular have accomplished nothing in this thread, if you want people to take you seriously stop being childish.

As passionate as you guys claim to be on this topic, I would think you guys would actually be open to an insightful discussion. It's become pretty clear to me now that you guys aren't interested in discussing anything at all. Which makes everything you guys are doing here a giant waste of time.
 
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Jews, Italians, Catholics, Irish, Asians, and plenty other new groups of immigrants have faced discrimination and racism by the general population of the United States and did not receive affirmative action.

So because they potentially should have and didn't, means that other people that should receive it shouldn't?

Do you know why a school like Einstein was created in 1955 and why he lent his name? Jews were still grossly discriminated against in the application process.

You also ignore the fact that Asians were made out to be the model minority (which is something that can actively hurt them to this day) and that it's easier for white immigrants to assimilate into American culture, especially after a generation or two vs the impossibility of that with African Americans.

The only thing your post belies is your ignorance.

There are still Japanese Americans alive that remember internment camps and confiscation/destruction of property. You claim that was so long ago, they claim that they remember...
 
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I'm also genuinely curious how these conversations will go in the future as American history is essentially rewritten and white washed.
 
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So because they potentially should have and didn't, means that other people that should receive it shouldn't?

If you're going to give preferential treatment to solely one group of minorities, then yes, I have a problem with this and I don't feel that they deserve it.

Do you know why a school like Einstein was created in 1955 and why he lent his name? Jews were still grossly discriminated against in the application process.

What, are you suggesting every minority group try to create their own medical school...?

You also ignore the fact that Asians were made out to be the model minority (which is something that can actively hurt them to this day) and that it's easier for white immigrants to assimilate into American culture, especially after a generation or two vs the impossibility of that with African Americans.

The only thing your post belies is your ignorance.

There are still Japanese Americans alive that remember internment camps and confiscation/destruction of property. You claim that was so long ago, they claim that they remember...

You can't use this kind of comparison. If one minority group fares a little better, it's okay to penalize them for that? Also, how is it the fault of ANY of these minorities that African-Americans can't assimilate into American culture? They're all immigrants - don't hold them accountable for that history.
 
No one is trying to wave it away. The issue is very real and present, this has already been made obvious. You're arguing the same points hoping for different results, and guess what... That isn't going to happen.

So yes, I for one am "over" this thread.

P.S. SDN sends a notification each time someone responds...

I'll repeat: if you don't want a notification, unwatch the thread. Or have you still not figured out how to use SDN after being on here for this long...
 
You can't use this kind of comparison. If one minority group fares a little beter, it's okay to penalize them for that? Also, how is it the fault of ANY of these minorities that African-Americans can't assimilate into American culture? They're all immigrants - don't hold them accountable for that history.

This goes back to this

Myth : If Jewish people and Asian Americans can rapidly advance economically, African Americans should be able to do the same.

This comparison ignores the unique history of discrimination against Black people in America. Over the past four centuries, Black history has included nearly 250 years of slavery, 100 years of legalized discrimination, and only 50 years of anything else. Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority. To expect Blacks to show the same upward mobility as Jews and Asians is to deny the historical and social reality that Black people face.
 
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It recently occurred to me that I got into an argument with a poster who picked their name after a porno...I'm not sure what I was expecting really...

You can't use this kind of comparison.

Translation: I support a definition so ridiculously reductionist that I can shout it from the mountaintops and claim that it is the abject truth, but all those frills and nuanced details that have actually gone into the creation of policies is not worth mentioning.
Also, history is history, we're in the now so lets ignore all that stuff.

What, are you suggesting every minority group try to create their own medical school...?

No you dolt, I was merely saying that they absolutely had to if they wanted to become doctors in the first place. Wasn't that the point of separate but equal? Are you saying that that's what should happen because they weren't allowed into the system at all 50 some odd years ago?
 
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So because they potentially should have and didn't, means that other people that should receive it shouldn't?

Do you know why a school like Einstein was created in 1955 and why he lent his name? Jews were still grossly discriminated against in the application process.

You are misinterpreting what I was saying. As others have pointed out, African Americans have a history of systematic, institutional racism that excluded them from educational institutions and employment that had profound negative effects on African American society that still have implications today, a generation after the Jim Crow era. All of those other groups have faced racism and discrimination but not as pervasively or as strongly as a matter of government policy as African Americans and Native Americans.

The fact that all those groups I mentioned are doing just fine in modern day is evidence that racism alone isn't enough to hold their societies down and that affirmative action was not needed for them to rise up. Contrast that with the situation of African Americans and Native Americans, who have faced centuries of systematic racism by government and other institutions alike in addition to the racism and discrimination directed at them by the general population, and you see why these two groups are struggling much more than the Caribbean and African immigrants who did not have a legacy of slavery and Jim crow laws wreaking havoc on their societies and tarnishing their histories.

Yet medical schools and colleges tend to lump all black people together, despite the different cultures and histories.

You also ignore the fact that Asians were made out to be the model minority (which is something that can actively hurt them to this day) and that it's easier for white immigrants to assimilate into American culture, especially after a generation or two vs the impossibility of that with African Americans.

I actually directly said that Asians are harmed by affirmative action in this day, just as I believe African Americans are because medical schools and colleges tend to lump all black people together ignoring differences in culture and history. Asians weren't always seen as a model minority and, in their early history, were often stereotyped as uneducated manual laborers (especially in the railroad industry).

The only thing your post belies is your ignorance.

Ad hominem attacks aren't necessary.

There are still Japanese Americans alive that remember internment camps and confiscation/destruction of property. You claim that was so long ago, they claim that they remember...

When did I claim it was long ago? I'm curious how you inferred that.

I brought up that they faced discrimination and only that. They also received reparations and an official apology.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/08/09/210138278/japanese-internment-redress
 
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The fact that all those groups I mentioned are doing just fine in modern day is evidence that racism alone isn't enough to hold their societies down and that affirmative action was not needed for them to rise up. Contrast that with the situation of African Americans and Native Americans, who have faced centuries of systematic racism by government and other institutions alike in addition to the racism and discrimination directed at them by the general population, and you see why these two groups are struggling much more than the Caribbean and African immigrants who did not have a legacy of slavery and Jim crow laws wreaking havoc on their societies and tarnishing their histories.

African Americans have not received reparations.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.

Also, your premise (in bold) is totally flawed and there is no evidence to support this at all. Especially because your next sentence essentially contradicts what you said in that there is still continued systematic racism. Other white immigrants faced societal discrimination and racism, but not the same level perpetrated by the government.
 
African Americans have not received reparations.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/



Also, your premise (in bold) is totally flawed and there is no evidence to support this at all. Especially because your next sentence essentially contradicts what you said in that there is still continued systematic racism. Other white immigrants faced societal discrimination and racism, but not the same level perpetrated by the government.

I'm actually agreeing with you, if you've read my posts carefully. I think you're confusing my use of "African" with "African American".
 
I'm actually agreeing with you, if you've read my posts carefully. I think you're confusing my use of "African" with "African American".

Fair enough, though I do think some of the same things do apply. Even though those families weren't subject to the same treatment in America historically, they walk into a maelstrom here as they're treated pretty similarly to african americans.
 
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Fair enough, though I do think some of the same things do apply. Even though those families weren't subject to the same treatment in America historically, they walk into a maelstrom here as they're treated pretty similarly to African Americans.

Exactly!

Even so, I appreciate the point @Cavs5284 is making with respects to low rates of African American matriculants in medical school. However, this is a numbers game. It really boils down to the number of African Americans applying in the first place. You do not have to look as far as graduate level education to see this phenomenon, this holds true on the collegiate level as well. The problem is representation. As you stated in one your previous posts (and I did as well) it comes down to resources (or lack there of). So if students are studying in underfunded school systems (K-12) and live in communities that generally lack in other resources, there is an additional hurdle that prevents them from accessing college level education, let alone graduate level education.

This is where the focus needs to be. Once these communities have equal access to resources they do not receive now and African American students have equal access to better education, then the need to give any one person an "edge" will cease. This is also why I think making comparisons to other groups that have faced discrimination in the past doesn't really make sense. Their transition from the peripheral has already occurred.

Edit to add: As some adcoms have stated before, the mission to recruit URM in medical school admissions is not entirely for the purpose of atoning for past sin. Rather, it is to increase diversity and also to train physicians who will be more likely to serve in communities they came from. Despite their small numbers in the U.S. a lot of people who immigrate from African and Caribbean countries DO have a strong representation in these underserved communities.
 
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Translation: I support a definition so ridiculously reductionist that I can shout it from the mountaintops and claim that it is the abject truth, but all those frills and nuanced details that have actually gone into the creation of policies is not worth mentioning.
Also, history is history, we're in the now so lets ignore all that stuff.
Tell me how I'm wrong. Why should any other groups affected by AA be responsible for events that led to the creation of AA in the first place?

No you dolt, I was merely saying that they absolutely had to if they wanted to become doctors in the first place. Wasn't that the point of separate but equal? Are you saying that that's what should happen because they weren't allowed into the system at all 50 some odd years ago?
I've been civil throughout this entire conversation. I can't take your comments seriously if you feel a need to name-call in every post. It's immature.
I've said this before: I don't care about the DEGREE of discrimination - I don't want discrimination period. Asians are subjected to the same "quota" problem Jewish people used to face. Sure, they're not barring Asians from entering college or medical school but as you can clearly see from acceptance statistics, certain races receive "bonuses" on their applications. http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20150222-story.html#page=1

This is old news.
 
This goes back to this:
Myth : If Jewish people and Asian Americans can rapidly advance economically, African Americans should be able to do the same.

This comparison ignores the unique history of discrimination against Black people in America. Over the past four centuries, Black history has included nearly 250 years of slavery, 100 years of legalized discrimination, and only 50 years of anything else. Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority. To expect Blacks to show the same upward mobility as Jews and Asians is to deny the historical and social reality that Black people face.

Again I ask: why should any other minority groups be held responsible for these policies? Is it their fault if their parents immigrated as doctors, lawyers, other professionals, etc.? See, this is the problem of AA: it assumes that because one minority has done okay in American society, it's completely ethical to harm them with policies that help others.
 
because medical schools feel they have a social responsibility to produce physicians that share a cultural history with the patients they serve. selecting applicants without regard to race (or SES) will not do this. clearly you disagree; fine, go work at a medical school once you're done with your training and make some changes
 
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Tell me how I'm wrong. Why should any other groups affected by AA be responsible for events that led to the creation of AA in the first place?


I've been civil throughout this entire conversation. I can't take your comments seriously if you feel a need to name-call in every post. It's immature.
I've said this before: I don't care about the DEGREE of discrimination - I don't want discrimination period. Asians are subjected to the same "quota" problem Jewish people used to face. Sure, they're not barring Asians from entering college or medical school but as you can clearly see from acceptance statistics, certain races receive "bonuses" on their applications. http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20150222-story.html#page=1

This is old news.

That's adorable.

End discrimination in society ferreal ferreal and then the people you're disagreeing with will agree that you don't need to do anything.

The other argument, which you keep sidestepping is about whether the race/ethnicity of doctors should be a reflection of the population.

From wiki:
White Americans are the racial majority, with a 77.7% share of the U.S. population, according to the 2013 U.S. Census. Hispanic and Latino Americans amount to 17.1% of the population, making up the largest minority. African Americans are the largest racial minority, amounting to 13.2% of the population.
A third significant minority is the Asian American population, comprising 13.4 million in 2008, or 4.4% of the U.S. population.

17.1/77.7=0.22 ratio in our population.

Now going back and looking at what I posted about matriculants:

Asian: 42.7% accepted (8,397/19,678)
White: 45.9% accepted (23,758/51,747)
African American/Black: 37.0% accepted (2,856/7,727)

2,856/23,758=0.12 in our medical students


Looks like schools are still being hella selective in terms of who they're letting in.

Have you ever wondered if your question has nothing to do with anything? Or do you also think that the physician population shouldn't reflect the general population?
 
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Again I ask: why should any other minority groups be held responsible for these policies? Is it their fault if their parents immigrated as doctors, lawyers, other professionals, etc.? See, this is the problem of AA: it assumes that because one minority has done okay in American society, it's completely ethical to harm them with policies that help others.
No one is being held at fault, the point is you can't act like the struggles of every single racial minority group have been the same, or that achieving parity for one will result in equality for all. All racial minority groups in the country have VERY different histories and it would be disingenuous to use the "model minority" hogwash as proof that racism can be dismantled without policies like URM.
 
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That's adorable.

End discrimination in society ferreal ferreal and then the people you're disagreeing with will agree that you don't need to do anything.

The other argument, which you keep sidestepping is about whether the race/ethnicity of doctors should be a reflection of the population.

From wiki:


17.1/77.7=0.22 ratio in our population.

Now going back and looking at what I posted about matriculants:

Asian: 42.7% accepted (8,397/19,678)
White: 45.9% accepted (23,758/51,747)
African American/Black: 37.0% accepted (2,856/7,727)

2,856/23,758=0.12 in our medical students


Looks like schools are still being hella selective in terms of who they're letting in.

Have you ever wondered if your question has nothing to do with anything? Or do you also think that the physician population shouldn't reflect the general population?

Good math but be careful with that 77.7% white people thing because technically there is double counting there with "White Non-Hispanic" and "White Hispanic".
 
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Quite honestly would like a refund seeing as I didn't receive this URM Advantage Package. Where are my promised 15 IIs and No Waitlist Guarantee?

And anyway, I've said it before but I'll say it again, I don't think the people arguing for "justice" for ORMs actually care about discrimination or oppression. I think you only care about "discrimination" when you perceive it to be against something that doesn't benefit you or people who look like you.
 
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