Race classification to med schools: possibly controversial thread

[SuchThoughts]

Quite honestly would like a refund seeing as I didn't receive this URM Advantage Package. Where are my promised 15 IIs and No Waitlist Guarantee?

And anyway, I've said it before but I'll say it again, I don't think the people arguing for "justice" for ORMs actually care about discrimination or oppression. I think you only care about "discrimination" when you perceive it to be against something that doesn't benefit you or people who look like you.

When people disagree with me I too try to dismiss their point of view by making assumptions about their character. This one time someone was disagreeing with me and making some pretty good points as well as pointing out contradictions in my thought process, but instead of reconsidering my position I just told myself everyone who disagrees with me is evil.

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[gapyearguppy]

When people disagree with me I too try to dismiss their point of view by making assumptions about their character. This one time someone was disagreeing with me and making some pretty good points as well as pointing out contradictions in my thought process, but instead of reconsidering my position I just told myself everyone who disagrees with me is evil.

Wow, you got all of that from what I said?
Quite the Honors English skillset you've got there.

 

[LizzyM]

Good math but be careful with that 77.7% white people thing because technically there is double counting there with "White Non-Hispanic" and "White Hispanic".

Usually "white" means "non-Hispanic white" and Hispanic encompasses all Hispanics, white or otherwise, no overlap. that's how the census does it. The way AAMC has Table 25 set up, I do not believe that White and Hispanic are double counting.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

No one is being held at fault, the point is you can't act like the struggles of every single racial minority group have been the same, or that achieving parity for one will result in equality for all. All racial minority groups in the country have VERY different histories and it would be disingenuous to use the "model minority" hogwash as proof that racism can be dismantled without policies like URM.

I didn't say the struggles of every minority have been the same. I'm saying if you play this game of "my suffering was worse than your suffering", it becomes very easy to justify arbitrary decisions that benefit only one group, while not caring for the rest. Again, that is discrimination, which I don't support.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

That's adorable.

End discrimination in society ferreal ferreal and then the people you're disagreeing with will agree that you don't need to do anything.

The other argument, which you keep sidestepping is about whether the race/ethnicity of doctors should be a reflection of the population.

From wiki:


17.1/77.7=0.22 ratio in our population.

Now going back and looking at what I posted about matriculants:

Asian: 42.7% accepted (8,397/19,678)
White: 45.9% accepted (23,758/51,747)
African American/Black: 37.0% accepted (2,856/7,727)

2,856/23,758=0.12 in our medical students


Looks like schools are still being hella selective in terms of who they're letting in.

Have you ever wondered if your question has nothing to do with anything? Or do you also think that the physician population shouldn't reflect the general population?

Why do you keep asking the same questions? See Womb Raider's previous response:

I definitely don't think we should forget it. If anything, we need to remember these things and be mindful of the importance of treating all people as equal human beings.

Does that mean some populations will be more skeptical of physicians for a while? Yes.
Does that mean physicians may have to spend more time explaining / gaining the trust of these populations? Yes.
Does that mean we should be conscience of these justified fears and prejudices while evaluating and treating certain populations? Yes.
Does a history of treating one population bad justify treating an entirely new unrelated population bad to make up for the past? No.

We are equals in the eyes of the law. This is huge progress.

But when medical schools start discriminating based on race, this also makes me worry about the precedent it is setting. Why don't we make schools have a certain % of URM teachers so that URM kids can be taught by URM teachers, with whom they connect with and learn from more effectively? Why don't restaurants do this? What about neighborhoods? You can go on and on and on. Don't you see that we're moving in the opposite direction? We're actively endorsing (or let me rephrase that, YOU are actively endorsing) a policy that discriminates based on skin color in 2015. Give yourself a big ol' pat on the back for me.

Unless treating people as a physician somehow directly involves one's skin color, then no, I don't care if the physician population doesn't reflect the general population.
If you really wanted to admit URMs with scores just as high as whites, Asians, etc., you need to actually address the dysmal education system in this country and the socioeconomic issues that affect these minority groups from the start. You can't just give them a bonus during med school applications for their skin color and call it a day.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Why do you keep asking the same questions? See Womb Raider's previous response:



Unless treating people as a physician somehow directly involves one's skin color, then no, I don't care if the physician population doesn't reflect the general population.
If you really wanted to admit URMs with scores just as high as whites, Asians, etc., you need to actually address the dysmal education system in this country and the socioeconomic issues that affect these minority groups from the start. You can't just give them a bonus during med school applications for their skin color and call it a day.

Again, not all URMs have a darker skin color.

And according to you, it's ok to address socioeconomic problems at the lower levels, but not at professional school level

 

[Lucca]

Why do you keep asking the same questions? See Womb Raider's previous response:



Unless treating people as a physician somehow directly involves one's skin color, then no, I don't care if the physician population doesn't reflect the general population.
If you really wanted to admit URMs with scores just as high as whites, Asians, etc., you need to actually address the dysmal education system in this country and the socioeconomic issues that affect these minority groups from the start. You can't just give them a bonus during med school applications for their skin color and call it a day.

So would you say that the ethnicity of the physician has no effect on the patient population he serves or where he serves? Because that is false and has been studied.

Or are you saying that the quality and skill of a physician is unaffected by the color of her skin? Is cultural competency not a contributing factor to the quality delivery of care? Does cultural competency not include understanding key issues about welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, religious beliefs, homelessness, single parenthood, immigration status and policy, language capacities, cultural norms, culturally specific distrust of the medical establishment? If so, where shall you best learn these things: From living them, from your peers or from a seminar?

As they say, there are many ways to learn - education, experience, and imitation - where education is the slowest and hardest but most readily accessible, imitation is quicker and less effective and experience is always fast and potent. Would you not want classmates to teach you about these things? If 40% of the class was Asian and 60% was white, how often would you interact with the one black student to learn about how black citizens approach medicine?

Let's remove race from the question: How many times have you volunteered at a homeless shelter and actually spoken with the homeless? Have you ever experienced how difficult it is to communicate with them? What if someone in your class had spent a ton of time with the homeless, or was homeless themselves could explain to you how to best reach them or understand what they need without them telling you? Would this be a value added by diversity? Is this not the same as cultural competency? If your home state is 30% Hispanic and that is the fastest growing population then wouldn't it be valuable to have some number of Hispanic or culturally aware colleagues from all walks of life to help serve this population and help their colleagues serve these populations? If the case of homelessness is not the same as cultural competency and the only difference is race - which you assert to be an empty value - then what is the difference then that makes these scenarios unequivelant?

Is this type of experience, the experience of race which is inextricable from the human experience and especially the American experience, not of any value when other experiences are valued in their place? Is this not a worse case of discrimination based on worth because instead of substituting and empty value for a real value you are removing a real value and making it empty?

Or is the care of patients strictly the diagnosing and prognosing of biomedical problems? If you believe THAT to be true, then you have not spent enough time in the clinic or in the public hospitals of this country.

Ethos: Hispanic non-URM with near 4.0 GPA so I don't really have any skin in this game as far "boosting" is concerned.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Usually "white" means "non-Hispanic white" and Hispanic encompasses all Hispanics, white or otherwise, no overlap. that's how the census does it. The way AAMC has Table 25 set up, I do not believe that White and Hispanic are double counting.

True, but those numbers he was using were from a different source and they set it up weird. The country isn't 77.7% white - that would mean it's only ~22% minority. Which we know isn't true since Blacks are ~13% and Hispanics are like 17% now.

If you look at the wiki article it shows "White Americans" are 72% of the country then if you look further down the list it shows that "non-Hispanic White" are 63.7%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

So, yes the census counts them as separate but when the statisticians come in they play with the numbers some.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

So would you say that the ethnicity of the physician has no effect on the patient population he serves or where he serves? Because that is false and has been studied.

Or are you saying that the quality and skill of a physician is unaffected by the color of her skin? Is cultural competency not a contributing factor to the quality delivery of care? Does cultural competency not include understanding key issues about welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, religious beliefs, homelessness, single parenthood, immigration status and policy, language capacities, cultural norms, culturally specific distrust of the medical establishment? If so, where shall you best learn these things: From living them, from your peers or from a seminar?

As they say, there are many ways to learn - education, experience, and imitation - where education is the slowest and hardest but most readily accessible, imitation is quicker and less effective and experience is always fast and potent. Would you not want classmates to teach you about these things? If 40% of the class was Asian and 60% was white, how often would you interact with the one black student to learn about how black citizens approach medicine?

Let's remove race from the question: How many times have you volunteered at a homeless shelter and actually spoken with the homeless? Have you ever experienced how difficult it is to communicate with them? What if someone in your class had spent a ton of time with the homeless, or was homeless themselves could explain to you how to best reach them or understand what they need without them telling you? Would this be a value added by diversity? Is this not the same as cultural competency? If your home state is 30% Hispanic and that is the fastest growing population then wouldn't it be valuable to have some number of Hispanic or culturally aware colleagues from all walks of life to help serve this population and help their colleagues serve these populations? If the case of homelessness is not the same as cultural competency and the only difference is race - which you assert to be an empty value - then what is the difference then that makes these scenarios unequivelant?

Is this type of experience, the experience of race which is inextricable from the human experience and especially the American experience, not of any value when other experiences are valued in their place? Is this not a worse case of discrimination based on worth because instead of substituting and empty value for a real value you are removing a real value and making it empty?

Or is the care of patients strictly the diagnosing and prognosing of biomedical problems? If you believe THAT to be true, then you have not spent enough time in the clinic or in the public hospitals of this country.

Ethos: Hispanic non-URM with near 4.0 GPA so I don't really have any skin in this game as far "boosting" is concerned.

This argument starts to fall apart if you try to apply it to any other profession, which Womb Raider already addressed pages ago. Should we start having quotas in every single line of work? Teachers have a very important job of educating children - do we need to make sure that there are enough URM teachers? Or better yet, maybe each classroom should have more than one teacher, one for each minority group represented!

Should tech firms start having quotas for minority groups too? So that they can bring their "cultural experiences" when coding software?

You make it sound like patients go to their doctors to sob their hearts out and bond over being a certain culture. I'm pretty most people go to the doctor to find out what illness they have and get treatment.

All the issues you mentioned (Medicare, Medicaid, immigration, etc.) can all be taught, they really not that hard to learn. And many minority groups that AA discriminates against have actually experienced these same problems but since they're not the right race, nobody cares.

If language barrier is the issue you're trying to get at, then hospitals should get more interpreters. I don't expect physicians will have the time to learn medical terminology in more than one language anyway.

 

[Lucca]

This argument starts to fall apart if you try to apply it to any other profession, which Womb Raider already addressed pages ago. Should we start having quotas in every single line of work? Teachers have a very important job of educating children - do we need to make sure that there are enough URM teachers? Or better yet, maybe each classroom should have more than one teacher, one for each minority group represented!

Should tech firms start having quotas for minority groups too? So that they can bring their "cultural experiences" when coding software?

You make it sound like patients go to their doctors to sob their hearts out and bond over being a certain culture. I'm pretty most people go to the doctor to find out what illness they have and get treatment.

All the issues you mentioned (Medicare, Medicaid, immigration, etc.) can all be taught, they really not that hard to learn. And many minority groups that AA discriminates against have actually experienced these same problems but since they're not the right race, nobody cares.

If language barrier is the issue you're trying to get at, then hospitals should get more interpreters. I don't expect physicians will have the time to learn medical terminology in more than one language anyway.

I recommend you get more clinical experience because you clearly don't understand how these problems unfold in practice, it is absolutely not a sob-fest, bonding session. You have 15 minutes to figure out what is wrong with your patient and what your patient tells you is only one, albeit important, part of the treatment process.

Diversity is encouraged and sought after in every profession. Medicine is unique in that it is a Guilded profession - that is, the supply of
Physicians is fixed meaning that the guild also has a responsibility for the demographics, capacities, and niches that the profession will have to fill now and in the future. If you look at the mission statement of any company diversity is clearly encouraged and this means a lot more than race. The problem about medical admissions is that people often take other factors of diversity into the equation and are tempted to just throw out race.

You did not answer the central question of my post: How is the type of education or value provided by race null when compared to other types of experience?

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

I recommend you get more clinical experience because you clearly don't understand how these problems unfold in practice, it is absolutely not a sob-fest, bonding session. You have 15 minutes to figure out what is wrong with your patient and what your patient tells you is only one, albeit important, part of the treatment process.

Diversity is encouraged and sought after in every profession. Medicine is unique in that it is a Guilded profession - that is, the supply of
Physicians is fixed meaning that the guild also has a responsibility for the demographics, capacities, and niches that the profession will have to fill now and in the future. If you look at the mission statement of any company diversity is clearly encouraged and this means a lot more than race. The problem about medical admissions is that people often take other factors of diversity into the equation and are tempted to just throw out race.

You did not answer the central question of my post: How is the type of education or value provided by race null when compared to other types of experience?

Obviously they tell you diversity is encouraged, there would be outrage if a company said it didn't support diversity. However, I stand by the companies who actually hire based on how skilled a candidate is. Not "Hey, we should hire this guy cuz we don't have any Hispanics/previously-homeless/previously-worked-in-other-professions in this department".

I already stated: your race/genetics don't have anything to do with the medical education you gain and then apply in practice.

 

[Lucca]

Obviously they tell you diversity is encouraged, there would be outrage if a company said it didn't support diversity. However, I stand by the companies who actually hire based on how skilled a candidate is. Not "Hey, we should hire this guy cuz we don't have any Hispanics/previously-homeless/previously-worked-in-other-professions in this department".

I already stated: your race/genetics don't have anything to do with the medical education you gain and then apply in practice.

I provided an argument as to why your belief statement is incorrect in the context of medical education so if you cannot refute it on the strongest terms - in the context of medical practice - then I cannot help you and "good luck on Verbal" as the saying goes.

I think my argument works on even its weakest terms - other professions - but I dont want to get into its just a digression and I'm busy.

 

[dechristine]

This argument starts to fall apart if you try to apply it to any other profession, which Womb Raider already addressed pages ago. Should we start having quotas in every single line of work? Teachers have a very important job of educating children - do we need to make sure that there are enough URM teachers? Or better yet, maybe each classroom should have more than one teacher, one for each minority group represented!

Should tech firms start having quotas for minority groups too? So that they can bring their "cultural experiences" when coding software?

You make it sound like patients go to their doctors to sob their hearts out and bond over being a certain culture. I'm pretty most people go to the doctor to find out what illness they have and get treatment.

All the issues you mentioned (Medicare, Medicaid, immigration, etc.) can all be taught, they really not that hard to learn. And many minority groups that AA discriminates against have actually experienced these same problems but since they're not the right race, nobody cares.

If language barrier is the issue you're trying to get at, then hospitals should get more interpreters. I don't expect physicians will have the time to learn medical terminology in more than one language anyway.

I'm not sure your analogy can extend to software developers because there isn't as much interaction involved. There have been a couple times while volunteering in the emergency room when a doctor was conversing to a (usually older) patient in Spanish or Chinese because they didn't understand English too well. I always thought that was pretty cool and clearly because the doctors were able to speak the patient's native language, the patients felt more at ease.

In the case of teachers, there are specifically ESL (English as a Second Language) teachers who help students who are unable to speak English. In STEM fields particularly, there is a sort of diversity push in that many programs highly encourage women and underrepresented minorities to apply. I do wish America had more diversity in terms of movie and television actors as well as dolls — it would have been super cool to be able to play with dolls that looked like me when I was younger. Growing up in a very not-diverse part of the South, I struggled for a long time thinking that I was ugly and wanting to look like all of my white classmates because that was all I grew up with. Then I discovered Korean dramas and a whole different standard of beauty

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

I provided an argument as to why your belief statement is incorrect in the context of medical education so if you cannot refute it on the strongest terms - in the context of medical practice - then I cannot help you and "good luck on Verbal" as the saying goes.

I think my argument works on even its weakest terms - other professions - but I dont want to get into its just a digression and I'm busy.

Yeah I'll make sure to re-take the MCAT along with my boards.

What studies are you referring to? The ones that find that minorities are more likely to serve minorities? You can't just lump all "minorities" together when reporting this statistic and then systematically discriminate against some of them. You want to maintain a diverse physician population? Then hold all minority groups to the same standard in medical school admissions. Don't disregard standards because some minority groups have managed to succeed despite experiencing the same issues of discrimination and immigration in this country.

If you're hell-bent on continuing with AA, start breaking down these large categories into actual racial groups and start setting quotas for each. I mean, if we're going with your argument that somehow race is crucial to patient treatment, then you'll find that a Vietnamese patient isn't going to have that much in common with a Japanese physician. Yet you're fine with lumping all of the East Asian and South Asian minorities all under one title of "Asian" and assuming that there will be no problem when it comes to physician-patient relationships or access to healthcare.

 

[Turnitoff]

I wasn't aware all minority groups have experienced the same issues of discrimination and immigration in this country. I learn something new every day!

Yeah I'll make sure to re-take the MCAT along with my boards.

What studies are you referring to? The ones that find that minorities are more likely to serve minorities? You can't just lump all "minorities" together when reporting this statistic and then systematically discriminate against some of them. You want to maintain a diverse physician population? Then hold all minority groups to the same standard in medical school admissions. Don't disregard standards because some minority groups have managed to succeed despite experiencing the same issues of discrimination and immigration in this country.

If you're hell-bent on continuing with AA, start breaking down these large categories into actual racial groups and start setting quotas for each. I mean, if we're going with your argument that somehow race is crucial to patient treatment, then you'll find that a Vietnamese patient isn't going to have that much in common with a Japanese physician. Yet you're fine with lumping all of the East Asian and South Asian minorities all under one title of "Asian" and assuming that there will be no problem when it comes to physician-patient relationships or access to healthcare.

 

[ridethecliche]

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving...

 

[MaybeDr]

When looking at research, I urge everyone to look at the sample size. This goes both ways.

Additionally, when using a website that summarizes a research article be sure to look at who wrote it and what their background is. Also consider the writer's personal agenda. It is media after all.

 

[ridethecliche]

When looking at research, I urge everyone to look at the sample size. This goes both ways.

Additionally, when using a website that summarizes a research article be sure to look at who wrote it and what their background is. Also consider the writer's personal agenda. It is media after all.

What is your sample size and the nature of your source for the aforementioned comment?

 

[MaybeDr]

What is your sample size and the nature of your source for the aforementioned comment?

There have been a couple articles mentioned in this thread such as http://www.salon.com/2015/03/04/10_ways_white_people_are_more_racist_than_they_realize_partner/. Some of those studies are a little bleh. This statement also includes MCAT and GPA versus acceptance statistics. I just want to remind everyone we are looking at correlative data, the weakest form of evidence. There's a lot going on in sociological research. Just an example
"White people, including police, see black children as older and less innocent than white children."
The study uses a very small sample size.
Study 1: "Participants. One hundred twenty-three students from a large public university participated in this study in exchange for course credit. Ninety-six percent (128) were female."(1) Study 2: "Participants. Fifty-nine students from a large public university participated in this study in exchange for course credit. Fifty-eight percent (34) were female"(1).
etc...
It's really hard to interpret anything from this if there are 223,553,265 white people in USA (2). It even seems hard to relate this to undergraduate college students given there are were 10,339,216 white undergraduate students in 2008 (3). The comment on police holds a little more water considering there are 461,000 sworn officers in USA, but still (4).

Sources:
1- https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-a0035663.pdf
2- http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf
3- http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2010/2010015.pdf
4- Bureau of Justice Statistics

 

[ridethecliche]

Lmfao that was perfect.

Whoosh is the sound of my comment going over your head.

 

[MaybeDr]

Lmfao that was perfect.

Whoosh is the sound of my comment going over your head.

Did I interpret your question incorrectly?

 

[ridethecliche]

Did I interpret your question incorrectly?

Yeah, you did. My comment was dripping with sarcasm.

 

[MaybeDr]

Yeah, you did. My comment was dripping with sarcasm.

Well seeing as we aren't quite penguin best buds yet, I'm going to have trouble telling your sarcasm through plain text for a while.

Despite penguin-sarcasm, I still think it's useful knowledge considering how much this is discussed on the forum.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

I wasn't aware all minority groups have experienced the same issues of discrimination and immigration in this country. I learn something new every day!

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Do you think the minorities in this country just sprouted from the ground or something?

 

[touchpause13]

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Do you think the minorities in this country just sprouted from the ground or something?

Omg....
Are you actually this dense?

 

[ChemEngMD]

Omg....
Are you actually this dense?

$50 says he doesn't know what the Middle Passage is.

Or the Trail of Tears.

 

[touchpause13]

$50 says he doesn't know what the Middle Passage is.

Probably not...
Also i highly doubt he's taking into consideration the fact that at one time white immigrants *were* the minority

 

[BlueCircle]

If language barrier is the issue you're trying to get at, then hospitals should get more interpreters. I don't expect physicians will have the time to learn medical terminology in more than one language anyway.

I suppose that always does the trick, but lets be honest here: higher quality care is achieved when you can interact with your doctor in your native tongue.

I would actually argue that having a diverse population of educators is beneficial. Growing up in a grade school where none of your teachers are of your race sends a subtle message to the minds of these young kids.

As far as other industries go, diversity (or lack thereof) has less of a meaningful impact. It varies.

Ultimately, its been proven that ethnic populations (including Asians) generally receive better healthcare (and thus better outcomes) when they see providers of the same race/ethnicity. And the US Medical establishment has made it their goal to increase access to quality care for all Americans (other metrics are looked at as well, ie being from rural areas etc).

So I find it interesting that you want to join an establishment that contradicts what is apparently a very strong idea of yours.

 

[ridethecliche]

$50 says he doesn't know what the Middle Passage is.

Isn't that the one Kaplan tells you to skip on the MCAT VR section?

 

[ridethecliche]

I just wanted to say that I love when people that are seemingly disconnected from the immigrant/minority experience are somehow experts on it.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

I just wanted to say that I love when people that are seemingly disconnected from the immigrant/minority experience are somehow experts on it.

Maybe it's my turn to use the "reading comprehension is important for the Verbal section" comment. Where did I ever claim I was an expert? Do we need to be experts to discuss important issues? You consider yourself an expert?

For the record, I immigrated to the US when I was 10 so yes, I am rather familiar with the immigrant experience.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

Omg....
Are you actually this dense?

$50 says he doesn't know what the Middle Passage is.

Or the Trail of Tears.

Probably not...
Also i highly doubt he's taking into consideration the fact that at one time white immigrants *were* the minority

If we're gonna play "misinterpret the comments", we'll be arguing in circles forever.

I'm talking about groups that are considered minorities currently, since this whole conversation started with what medical schools consider URMs. Obviously white immigrants were considered the minority at one point in time but I'd really like to see you argue that case with medical schools right now.

I thought it would've been obvious that my comment wasn't referring to Native Americans since they were here before anyone but okay, I guess I have to spell out everything in my comments from now on.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

I suppose that always does the trick, but lets be honest here: higher quality care is achieved when you can interact with your doctor in your native tongue.

I would actually argue that having a diverse population of educators is beneficial. Growing up in a grade school where none of your teachers are of your race sends a subtle message to the minds of these young kids.

As far as other industries go, diversity (or lack thereof) has less of a meaningful impact. It varies.

Ultimately, its been proven that ethnic populations (including Asians) generally receive better healthcare (and thus better outcomes) when they see providers of the same race/ethnicity. And the US Medical establishment has made it their goal to increase access to quality care for all Americans (other metrics are looked at as well, ie being from rural areas etc).

So I find it interesting that you want to join an establishment that contradicts what is apparently a very strong idea of yours.

It is better to interact in a familiar language but let's face it, 99% of medical schools teach in English. Is it even feasible to try to track each race into a different curriculum where they'll attempt to learn the same volume of information in multiple languages? Even people who are fluent in their native tongue probably don't have a good grasp of medical jargon in that language.

I have never had a single teacher who was my race, from kindergarten to medical school. I'm doing just fine. People go to school to learn, not bond with their teachers over their race.

I've already said that if diversity is a goal of the medical establishment or other industries, it should not be accomplished by helping one group at the expense of another. Hold them to the same standard. Aren't we trying to find the best doctors? I for one wouldn't be comfortable being treated by someone who did far poorly during college and on the MCAT but was admitted due to a race bonus.

 

[ridethecliche]

It is better to interact in a familiar language but let's face it, 99% of medical schools teach in English. Is it even feasible to try to track each race into a different curriculum where they'll attempt to learn the same volume of information in multiple languages? Even people who are fluent in their native tongue probably don't have a good grasp of medical jargon in that language.

I have never had a single teacher who was my race, from kindergarten to medical school. I'm doing just fine. People go to school to learn, not bond with their teachers over their race.

I've already said that if diversity is a goal of the medical establishment or other industries, it should not be accomplished by helping one group at the expense of another. Hold them to the same standard. Aren't we trying to find the best doctors? I for one wouldn't be comfortable being treated by someone who did far poorly during college and on the MCAT but was admitted due to a race bonus.

Man, you love the exemplar examples don't you? Does your being a special snowflake invalidate the experiences of many others? How the hell did you get from having rolemodels in different tiers of society to bonding with teachers over race? Is this really what you think people are talking about? Again, the word daft comes to mind.

One of the Harvard affiliated PCP's I've shadowed routinely speaks to his patients in creole, french, spanish, and english. Does this invalidate your claim? Woo exemplar!

Also, no one is describing any sort of system as your first paragraph details. Being able to explain a concept and medical jargon are two very different things. Have you even started working with patients yet? Medical jargon poses a problem for a lot of them and breaking concepts down into 5th grade language is often the only way certain patients understand what's happening. The IRB requires all documents for patients to be at a middle school comprehension level for a reason. You don't need to be able to talk to other attendings in the xyz language, but sometimes it helps to be able to describe things to patients in their first language even if it's at an elementary/middle school level.

Also, did you just imply that there's a 1:1 race:language ratio? What are you on about brah?

 

[MaybeDr]

The IRB requires all documents for patients to be at a middle school comprehension level for a reason. You don't need to be able to talk to other attendings in the xyz language, but sometimes it helps to be able to describe things to patients in their first language even if it's at an elementary/middle school level

Truf. I wish I had started learning a second language earlier.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

Man, you love the exemplar examples don't you? Does your being a special snowflake invalidate the experiences of many others? How the hell did you get from having rolemodels in different tiers of society to bonding with teachers over race? Is this really what you think people are talking about? Again, the word daft comes to mind.

One of the Harvard affiliated PCP's I've shadowed routinely speaks to his patients in creole, french, spanish, and english. Does this invalidate your claim? Woo exemplar!

Also, no one is describing any sort of system as your first paragraph details. Being able to explain a concept and medical jargon are two very different things. Have you even started working with patients yet? Medical jargon poses a problem for a lot of them and breaking concepts down into 5th grade language is often the only way certain patients understand what's happening. The IRB requires all documents for patients to be at a middle school comprehension level for a reason. You don't need to be able to talk to other attendings in the xyz language, but sometimes it helps to be able to describe things to patients in their first language even if it's at an elementary/middle school level.

Also, did you just imply that there's a 1:1 race:language ratio? What are you on about brah?

If you can't hold a discussion without sewing insults into every sentence, you're going to have a really miserable time in that one medical school you got accepted to. (See how jabs don't actually contribute anything to the topic?)

If you think I'm a "special snowflake", then you're extending your ignorance to my community of 50,000. We don't care what race our teachers were...we just wanted good teachers who made learning fun and pushed us to be our best. Tell me again how race has anything to do with this?

Please don't think your job as a research assistant makes you an expert on physician-patient interactions. Even the physicians and researchers at my institution who are fluent in Spanish choose to bring along an interpreter because they want to make sure the patient understands everything. The institution encourages the use of interpreters because they have been trained and its their sole job to communicate medical concepts to patients. The patient isn't going to be pleased if you treat them like a kid in grade school.

...In what way did I say that? Did you read what I wrote? "Multiple languages."

 

[ridethecliche]

If you can't hold a discussion without sewing insults into every sentence, you're going to have a really miserable time in that one medical school you got accepted to. (See how jabs don't actually contribute anything to the topic?)

If you think I'm a "special snowflake", then you're extending your ignorance to my community of 50,000. We don't care what race our teachers were...we just wanted good teachers who made learning fun and pushed us to be our best. Tell me again how race has anything to do with this?

Please don't think your job as a research assistant makes you an expert on physician-patient interactions. Even the physicians and researchers at my institution who are fluent in Spanish choose to bring along an interpreter because they want to make sure the patient understands everything. The institution encourages the use of interpreters because they have been trained and its their sole job to communicate medical concepts to patients. The patient isn't going to be pleased if you treat them like a kid in grade school.

...In what way did I say that? Did you read what I wrote? "Multiple languages."

My mistake. Interpreted that as english+'native' language.

I'm just confused how you're speaking for 50k people here though. I have no idea what race you are, so I can't really speak to whatever stereotypes there are at play and what representation if any they have through society...The special snowflake quip is relevant because you're saying 'I didn't have any issues, so others shouldn't either'. Okay then.

For the nth time, the point of having diversity in the workforce in every profession is to have role models available for whatever someone is interested in, not to have teachers of the same race... It's the same argument that's being made for having more women in STEM careers because the shortage is arbitrary and due to roadblocks based on those that currently work in the field not due to any sort of 'real' reason. There's also a very real phenomenon of white washing history and using white people to represent historical figures that were... not white (like in hollywood latest example I can think of was with the Ridley Scott Moses flick).

There's also this bit about the barriers to experiences that was posted about earlier: https://www.insidehighered.com/news...rs-are-more-likely-respond-white-males-others

Never claimed to be an expert on physician patient interactions, but I know a thing or two after having stuck around for over 4 years.

I'm certainly with you that I wish we didn't have a system that had to give anyone a boost, but till the point that society does a better job of addressing the disparities that's the best we can do. Your response is adequate for a perfect society, which is far from what we are. So till you can make the case that society is as you describe, that's how the cookie crumbles.

The fact of the matter is that the GPA/MCAT chart doesn't address the hardship/what have you faced by applicants that is taken into account in a holistic review. Sometimes, life experience is traded for a couple of LizzyM points. Being a doctor isn't JUST about test scores. That's what you seem to reduce it to.

Now I really feel like a dog chasing its tail...

Also, I'm pretty psyched at having gotten into one medical school. Last I checked, that's all it takes. I wasn't insulted in the least, but nice try?

 

[ridethecliche]

The reason that adcomms here are giving for representation is more 'patient centered' population reason, i.e. you represent demographics in society.

Do you have any data supporting that this representation is of no consequence or deleterious?

 

[Womb Raider]

One of the Harvard affiliated PCP's I've shadowed routinely speaks to his patients in creole, french, spanish, and english.

It's very difficult (if not impossible) to get certified by a hospital to be a legit translator for multiple languages due to the level of competency required. There are so many particularities in language and different cultures that can be construed entirely the wrong way if you aren't extremely familiar and up-to-date. This is important because people don't like to get sued .

So, although it's impressive that your doctor friend can speak multiple languages, many people would consider it rash and in some cases unprofessional.

 

[C@lidoc]

It's very difficult (if not impossible) to get certified by a hospital to be a legit translator for multiple languages due to the level of competency required. There are so many particularities in language and different cultures that can be construed entirely the wrong way if you aren't extremely familiar and up-to-date. This is important because people don't like to get sued .

So, although it's impressive that your doctor friend can speak multiple languages, many people would consider it rash and in some cases unprofessional.

You obviously have never worked in a low income clinic. Not every place has a translator...do you live in a bubble? You wreak of overprivileged elitism.

 

[Womb Raider]

You obviously have never worked in a low income clinic. Not every place has a translator...do you live in a bubble? You wreak of overprivileged elitism.

I've spent lots of time in a very small clinic (1 Dr 1 Nurse 2 MA) that catered to the underserved (about 80% of the patients were Spanish, and a good portion of them had English as a second language). Our doctor spent a few years living in a Spanish speaking country and spoke Spanish fluently (English was his primary language though) . However, he would still frequently ask for clarification from family members or our MAs (who were Spanish).

The standards are obviously lower in family care clinics, but it doesn't excuse doing guesswork as a physician. If you aren't comfortable understanding what your patient wants, you need to refer them to someone who can understand. It's hard enough deciphering patient's wishes in one language with all the different cultures and dialects involved, for anyone to be highly competent in four languages is extremely unlikely.

 

[C@lidoc]

I've spent lots of time in a very small clinic (1 Dr 1 Nurse 2 MA) that catered to the underserved (about 80% of the patients were Spanish, and a good portion of them had English as a second language). Our doctor spent a few years living in a Spanish speaking country and spoke Spanish fluently (English was his primary language though) . However, he would still frequently ask for clarification from family members or our MAs (who were Spanish).

The standards are obviously lower in family care clinics, but it doesn't excuse doing guesswork as a physician. If you aren't comfortable understanding what your patient wants, you need to refer them to someone who can understand. It's hard enough deciphering patient's wishes in one language with all the different cultures and dialects involved, for anyone to be highly competent in four languages is extremely unlikely.

You have doctors who speak better Spanish than many second generation Spanish speaking people. Idk where you are from but in CA, it's pretty useful to know Spanish. Just imagine how swamped some places are and how limited translators can be....oh, might actually useful to have some URMs, oh, sorry but they aren't qualified....

 

[Aerus]

@Womb Raider, not sure if you are delusional or simply live in a homogeneous bubble.

"Things do balance out on their own given equal conditions. You treat people equally, eventually people will start believing it. You stop giving reasons for people to hate each other, eventually they'll be forced to stop hating each other."

Nope. Never has this ever been true in a diverse society.

1. Fixing over 250 years of slavery and barring people from education isn't fixed overnight.
2. What do you propose?
3. Just because someone is URM but not low SES doesn't mean he hasn't any easier. Just look at the Henry Gates case in 2009.

"I can't understand why you guys think it's OK to give some individuals an advantage based on something that is 100% involuntary. You're arguing against the very thing that started this problem in the first place."

So your solution is just to say, forget about the history and lets start everyone on an equal playing field? Forgetting that up until 1972, the medical community allowed experiments like the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment to go on. How fair is that? I can tell you don't have much experience with other cultures.

You are an absolutely beautiful human being. It's finals week and I don't comment that much on SDN anymore anyways, but I just had to say that. Thank you.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

You obviously have never worked in a low income clinic. Not every place has a translator...do you live in a bubble? You wreak of overprivileged elitism.

You have doctors who speak better Spanish than many second generation Spanish speaking people. Idk where you are from but in CA, it's pretty useful to know Spanish. Just imagine how swamped some places are and how limited translators can be....oh, might actually useful to have some URMs, oh, sorry but they aren't qualified....

What the hell are you on about? We were trying to explain why physicians opted to use interpreters who to benefit the patient. I'm not sure what's so elitist about that.

 

[Cyndaquil MD]

My mistake. Interpreted that as english+'native' language.

I'm just confused how you're speaking for 50k people here though. I have no idea what race you are, so I can't really speak to whatever stereotypes there are at play and what representation if any they have through society...The special snowflake quip is relevant because you're saying 'I didn't have any issues, so others shouldn't either'. Okay then.

For the nth time, the point of having diversity in the workforce in every profession is to have role models available for whatever someone is interested in, not to have teachers of the same race... It's the same argument that's being made for having more women in STEM careers because the shortage is arbitrary and due to roadblocks based on those that currently work in the field not due to any sort of 'real' reason. There's also a very real phenomenon of white washing history and using white people to represent historical figures that were... not white (like in hollywood latest example I can think of was with the Ridley Scott Moses flick).

There's also this bit about the barriers to experiences that was posted about earlier: https://www.insidehighered.com/news...rs-are-more-likely-respond-white-males-others

Never claimed to be an expert on physician patient interactions, but I know a thing or two after having stuck around for over 4 years.

I'm certainly with you that I wish we didn't have a system that had to give anyone a boost, but till the point that society does a better job of addressing the disparities that's the best we can do. Your response is adequate for a perfect society, which is far from what we are. So till you can make the case that society is as you describe, that's how the cookie crumbles.

The fact of the matter is that the GPA/MCAT chart doesn't address the hardship/what have you faced by applicants that is taken into account in a holistic review. Sometimes, life experience is traded for a couple of LizzyM points. Being a doctor isn't JUST about test scores. That's what you seem to reduce it to.

Now I really feel like a dog chasing its tail...

Also, I'm pretty psyched at having gotten into one medical school. Last I checked, that's all it takes. I wasn't insulted in the least, but nice try?

As I mentioned before, I'm not White so I'm not at all for this "white-washing" of history or role models but that's not really the issue I'm arguing at the moment.

See, the problem with using diversity as a reason for boosting certain groups' scores is that you're only boosting select groups. If we're going to use the argument that the population of doctors should reflect the country's population, then you can't lump Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indians, Vietnamese, etc. etc. people all under the "Asian" umbrella and say, "Chinese and Indian people are over-represented in medicine. Therefore Asians are over-represented in medicine. Therefore we don't need to address the needs of every single other race that falls under the Asian category." Isn't that a little unfair? What about Laotian and Cambodian people? They haven't had the same upward mobility you've seen in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean immigrants. Shouldn't they have some sort of URM boost then when it comes to applications? Isn't it also really ignorant to assume that all Asian cultures are they same (since "cultural competence" was yet another reason for affirmative action).

Sure, you can talk about the certain hardships minority groups face. But again, how do you quantify that? Should we look at SES? Oh, we can't, because that would also benefit White and Asians.
But then it becomes a competition of "my discrimination is worse than your discrimination" - I'm pretty sure all minority groups still face racism/discrimination in some way so I don't think it's possible to start judging and offering bonus points to who suffered "the most." It's too subjective.

Of course being a doctor isn't all about test scores. But schools need to be transparent and actually have a good reason for offering boosts and boosts for only a few groups.

I take back my comment about your acceptance. You only need one.

 

[ridethecliche]

But applicants that are of low SES status are given a boost in admissions, as are those that are the first generation to go to college. There's a self selected demarcation for it on the primary. That's how the holistic bit comes in...

People are judged based on what they do with what they have. Medical school has the added burden of trying to represent the population.

In an ideal world without the disparities our society faces, I'd be in agreement with you. I'm hopeful that given your strong feelings about these issues that you will lead some sort of charge to make our society reach a sort of stage where such steps aren't necessary.

I'm not sure I'll see it in my lifetime given that i have grey hairs in my beard already, but I'm hopeful...

 

[ChemEngMD]

As I mentioned before, I'm not White so I'm not at all for this "white-washing" of history or role models but that's not really the issue I'm arguing at the moment.

See, the problem with using diversity as a reason for boosting certain groups' scores is that you're only boosting select groups. If we're going to use the argument that the population of doctors should reflect the country's population, then you can't lump Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indians, Vietnamese, etc. etc. people all under the "Asian" umbrella and say, "Chinese and Indian people are over-represented in medicine. Therefore Asians are over-represented in medicine. Therefore we don't need to address the needs of every single other race that falls under the Asian category." Isn't that a little unfair? What about Laotian and Cambodian people? They haven't had the same upward mobility you've seen in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean immigrants. Shouldn't they have some sort of URM boost then when it comes to applications? Isn't it also really ignorant to assume that all Asian cultures are they same (since "cultural competence" was yet another reason for affirmative action).

Sure, you can talk about the certain hardships minority groups face. But again, how do you quantify that? Should we look at SES? Oh, we can't, because that would also benefit White and Asians.
But then it becomes a competition of "my discrimination is worse than your discrimination" - I'm pretty sure all minority groups still face racism/discrimination in some way so I don't think it's possible to start judging and offering bonus points to who suffered "the most." It's too subjective.

Of course being a doctor isn't all about test scores. But schools need to be transparent and actually have a good reason for offering boosts and boosts for only a few groups.

I take back my comment about your acceptance. You only need one.

You are aware that schools do look at SES right? There is a disadvantaged designation and schools do take it into account. In fact, I read disadvantaged statements for applicants I was interviewing this year and referenced them in my interviewee evaluations.

As for other Asian ethnicities I absolutely agree with you. In fact, some schools now consider Vietnamese to be URM (Wisconsin and Colorado come to mind) and other schools consider Pacific Islanders and Filipinos to be URM. The reason you don't see schools considering Cambodian and Laotian immigrants to be URM is because they are 0.09% and 0.08% of the American population, respectively. Perhaps in some regions of the US where they have a larger population they will be considered URM in the future.

The concept of URM has been evolving in the last decade or two. There used to be only 4 ethnic groups considered URM, now there are many more.

 

[deleted642188]

The reason you don't see schools considering Cambodian and Laotian immigrants

I'm not sure about Medical School, but I know that UW-Madison considers Cambodian and Laotians to be URMs for their REU programs

Edit: In fairness, concerning the question about the population of Laotians and Cambodians, the same can be said for the Afro-Carribbean Populations - e.g. Haitian and Jamaicans ( they are roughly 0.3% of the population for both).... but everyone is okay with them having URM status....

Actually not an REU because I don't think it's NSF funded... but here's the link

http://metc.med.wisc.edu/metc/srop/index.html

 

[ChemEngMD]

I'm not sure about Medical School, but I know that UW-Madison considers Cambodian and Laotians to be URMs for their REU programs

Edit: In fairness, concerning the question about the population of Laotians and Cambodians, the same can be said for the Afro-Carribbean Populations - e.g. Haitian and Jamaicans ( they are roughly 0.3% of the population for both).... but everyone is okay with them having URM status....

Actually not an REU because I don't think it's NSF funded... but here's the link

http://metc.med.wisc.edu/metc/srop/index.html

Afro-Caribbean Americans are actually 0.83% (almost 2.7 million - it isn't just limited to Jamaicans and Haitians lol). So they are 10X the population of either Laotians or Cambodians, which actually makes them a bigger ethnic group than all Asian ethnic groups other than Chinese, Filipino, and Indian.

But yeah I get your point - they get lumped in with African Americans the same way Africans do. If you wanted to make every single ethnic group accounted for then there would be a lot more URMs. You could break down certain European immigrant groups as being URM too I'm sure, but do they suffer the same healthcare disparities as most groups designated URM? I don't know the answer to that.


Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Indian_American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Asian_Americans

 

[TheAmbitiousGirl]

If you're "over it", why do you keep coming back to post? Stop watching the thread. Or can you not deal with not having the last word?
It doesn't matter if other people choose to be blind to the issue - it's still an issue and you, nor anyone else, can't diminish that by trying to wave it away.

Seems as though you're the one with the obsession with having the last word. It's been weeks since my first reply and you're still at it. Now I don't have any letters after my name but this just seems a little unhealthy and a waste of precious time. Do you mind me asking if you are in fact a medical student? Are you a reapplicant? Man, I envy your persistence and free time.