race to the bottom job offer....

[michaelrack]

Are we seriously engaging with an economic damsel in distress call with a 2 physician income household? You guys are the most empathic people I've ever met.

Wasn't there a study recently that showed that marital problems increase when the woman brings in more than 60% of the family income? The man needs to bring in the bacon.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[digitlnoize]

I haven't been able to find a job paying close to that. Well I should say I haven't been able to find a job I am comfortable with from an ethical standpoint that pays close to that and:

-will hire me

I think we found the problem. I'm just kidding. Seriously though, if we knew the area you were looking in we could possibly help. What about setting up your own shop. Have you considered that?

 

[hamstergang]

Seriously though, if we knew the area you were looking in we could possibly help.

Based on the nearly identical job listing I posted, it would appear Wisconsin. I can't imagine vistaril posted about a different offer that, save for 4 changes, was word-for-word the same, including the order of the bullet points.

 

[notdeadyet]

$175k per year with WI cost of living is not so bad.


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[vistaril]

Based on the nearly identical job listing I posted, it would appear Wisconsin. I can't imagine vistaril posted about a different offer that, save for 4 changes, was word-for-word the same, including the order of the bullet points.

I hate cold weather. Most definitely not Wisconsin.

 

[whopper]

If you don't like the job offers you're getting, increase the opportunities by looking in other geographic areas.

Or take the best of what's offered and turn lemons into lemonade. Do a good job and offers will come to you once people in your area figure out you're a competent doctor.

I get at least a few job offers a year. It's actually to the degree where it's frustrating because for each no I give out, I keep thinking what if..... Some of them have been from nationally recognized doctors, institutions considered elite, or would've put me in an administrative position. This is something that wouldn't have happened fresh out of residency or fellowship.

You got to earn your rep. As a psychiatrist you'll likely always be able to find a job, and if you can't you can easily make a practice on your own almost anywhere in the country. But if you really want a highly respected position you have to show you are a doctor worthy of that respect. It takes time and diligence.

I also know of several doctors that did community mental health care and then became highly ranked people in some very highly respected institutions, and those institutions wouldn't have taken them if they did mediocre work in those previous places.

And one person I know of is the head of a community mental health agency and has national recognition for her work.

 

[vistaril]

If you don't like the job offers you're getting, increase the opportunities by looking in other geographic areas.

Or take the best of what's offered and turn lemons into lemonade. Do a good job and offers will come to you once people in your area figure out you're a competent doctor.

I get at least a few job offers a year. It's actually to the degree where it's frustrating because for each no I give out, I keep thinking what if..... Some of them have been from nationally recognized doctors, institutions considered elite, or would've put me in an administrative position. This is something that wouldn't have happened fresh out of residency or fellowship.

You got to earn your rep. As a psychiatrist you'll likely always be able to find a job, and if you can't you can easily make a practice on your own almost anywhere in the country. But if you really want a highly respected position you have to show you are a doctor worthy of that respect. It takes time and diligence.

I also know of several doctors that did community mental health care and then became highly ranked people in some very highly respected institutions, and those institutions wouldn't have taken them if they did mediocre work in those previous places.

And one person I know of is the head of a community mental health agency and has national recognition for her work.

but I have no interest in a 'highly respected' position.....I just want a fully clinical job that isn't a state, VA, or academic job where I am allowed to see a reasonable number of patients per hour. Heck I would do it for 115k or so.

 

[hamstergang]

I hate cold weather. Most definitely not Wisconsin.

So you're saying that what you posted and what I posted, despite using identical wording and having the bullet points in the identical order, are for different jobs? Can you find an example of another job offer that also uses this exact wording?

 

[vistaril]

So you're saying that what you posted and what I posted, despite using identical wording and having the bullet points in the identical order, are for different jobs? Can you find an example of another job offer that also uses this exact wording?

dude, if you are arguing I copied and pasted a job ad and changed a few things, the wording isn't even that similar. If I wanted to do that I could have done 10x better in terms of ease for me. Many jobs, especially cookie cutter outpt jobs, list the same bullet points(salary, schedule, hours, benefits, etc). In terms of a similarity score, the one you 'found' isn't even that great of a match. I could have done a lot better if that was my game plan.

 

[Shikima]

but I have no interest in a 'highly respected' position.....I just want a fully clinical job that isn't a state, VA, or academic job where I am allowed to see a reasonable number of patients per hour. Heck I would do it for 115k or so.

Doesn't exist. Sorry to burst your bubble. Only way you can do this is if you set up your own shop. Any other hospital or private clinic organization will want you to see Pt's with a 45/15 min or 40/20 min type schedule in order to move meat.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Doesn't exist. Sorry to burst your bubble. Only way you can do this is if you set up your own shop. Any other hospital or private clinic organization will want you to see Pt's with a 45/15 min or 40/20 min type schedule in order to move meat.

My org is 60/20 for outpatient docs, starts in the low 200s, with full bennies.
But too cold for vistaril.

 

[Shikima]

My par

My org is 60/20 for outpatient docs, starts in the low 200s, with full bennies.
But too cold for vistaril.

It's different for me depending on which sector I'm operating in. With my private clinic, I do have an hourly rate as an independent contractor but my appointments are 45/15 to move meat. All that matters is the bottom line, the green back.

 

[hamstergang]

dude, if you are arguing I copied and pasted a job ad and changed a few things, the wording isn't even that similar.

You realize everyone else is capable of reading the link I posted and your OP, so you can't lie about how similar they are and expect it to stick. Save for the 4 differences I pointed out, they are IDENTICAL. I'll repost it here with only the parts that are character-for-character the same:

• General adult outpatient clinic Monday through Friday
  • 
    
  • Clinic coverage: one night per week with telephone call only
• New patient consultations and follow-ups
• Depending on the needs of the patient:
  • Med checks average to minutes
  • New consults are to minutes
• Inherit a large existing base of active patients with the full spectrum of adult Psychiatry diagnoses
• Psychiatry trained APNP works in conjunction with our Psychiatry team
• Diverse patient population and outstanding medical community for support
• Student loan forgiveness (HPSA 16)
• Quality based compensation rather than volume
  • Sign on and relocation available
• Psychologists and masters level therapists on staff to assist with Psychotherapy
• Full benefits including malpractice, health insurance, retirement plans, vacation and CME
• J1 Visa compatible and sponsorship through Green Card

So this isn't a good match, you say? I'm not saying you found this and changed it to sound worse, but the only alternative I can think of is that some recruiter sent you a worse version of this offer. I put into google a few of these bullet points in quotes, and the only hits I get are for this same job offer on different sites, so I can't find a different job that uses the same words/bullets though your claim that many do.

 

[vistaril]

You realize everyone else is capable of reading the link I posted and your OP, so you can't lie about how similar they are and expect it to stick. Save for the 4 differences I pointed out, they are IDENTICAL. I'll repost it here with only the parts that are character-for-character the same:

• General adult outpatient clinic Monday through Friday
  • 
    
  • Clinic coverage: one night per week with telephone call only
• New patient consultations and follow-ups
• Depending on the needs of the patient:
  • Med checks average to minutes
  • New consults are to minutes
• Inherit a large existing base of active patients with the full spectrum of adult Psychiatry diagnoses
• Psychiatry trained APNP works in conjunction with our Psychiatry team
• Diverse patient population and outstanding medical community for support
• Student loan forgiveness (HPSA 16)
• Quality based compensation rather than volume
  • Sign on and relocation available
• Psychologists and masters level therapists on staff to assist with Psychotherapy
• Full benefits including malpractice, health insurance, retirement plans, vacation and CME
• J1 Visa compatible and sponsorship through Green Card

So this isn't a good match, you say? I'm not saying you found this and changed it to sound worse, but the only alternative I can think of is that some recruiter sent you a worse version of this offer. I put into google a few of these bullet points in quotes, and the only hits I get are for this same job offer on different sites, so I can't find a different job that uses the same words/bullets though your claim that many do.

Most of the similarities and word matches are for VERY COMMON phrases for psychiatry job offerings. Knowing where the job I contacted about is, I can say that they are most definately not the same job.

 

[vistaril]

My org is 60/20 for outpatient docs, starts in the low 200s, with full bennies.
But too cold for vistaril.

iirc you also work at an academic center. not interested in working in such a setting. Just a personal preference.

 

[Shikima]

iirc you also work at an academic center. not interested in working in such a setting. Just a personal preference.

I can't even advise a medicaid clinic for you because they also want to move meat. Looks like you're hunting for a shift supervisor at the local Taco bell.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

iirc you also work at an academic center. not interested in working in such a setting. Just a personal preference.

Academic in that we are a "hospital that teaches", but not a Teaching Hospital. And the outpatient jobs are not at all academic (unless someone really wanted them to be). But whatever...

You have a historical propensity to generalize from your personal experience to make suppositions about the State of Psychiatry everywhere, and I was just posting to let others know that there are plenty of good options for successful, happy employment in this field.

 

[hamstergang]

Most of the similarities and word matches are for VERY COMMON phrases for psychiatry job offerings.

I thought so too. Then I googled some of those phrases to see how many different job ads would use that exact wording. I found exactly one, the one I posted. So these VERY COMMON phrases are apparently only common to the ad I posted and the one you posted. Interesting, right?

By the way, are you now agreeing that you were wrong when you said "the wording isn't even that similar?"

 

[michaelrack]

But too cold for vistaril.

It's too cold everywhere in the US for Vistaril (and for me). It's been in the teens in northern Mississipp.

 

[vistaril]

Academic in that we are a "hospital that teaches", but not a Teaching Hospital. And the outpatient jobs are not at all academic (unless someone really wanted them to be). But whatever...

You have a historical propensity to generalize from your personal experience to make suppositions about the State of Psychiatry everywhere, and I was just posting to let others know that there are plenty of good options for successful, happy employment in this field.

I'm only speaking for myself here. I didn't say "I can't find a job that both pays decently and is satisfying, and neither can x, y, z"

Additionally, your area of the country tends to pay the most for mental health jobs. I've heard many people say that, and just from mailings it appears to be true. That's good for people who want to live there.

Finally, maybe I'm just being unreasonable over what I consider satisfying, but 3 followups per hour isn't really what I am looking for. That's not insanely high volume, but when you consider the time it takes to process patients in and out of the office, dot i's and cross t's, etc....that's borderline hustling. Especially if you aren't seeing patients super often. If someone is scheduling 3 patients per hour(and they are showing up), that definitely doesn't equal 20 minutes of meaningful face time.

 

[vistaril]

It's too cold everywhere in the US for Vistaril (and for me). It's been in the teens in northern Mississipp.

brutal. I went outside for like 20 minutes today and when I came back in couldn't even feel my fingers.

 

[vistaril]

I thought so too. Then I googled some of those phrases to see how many different job ads would use that exact wording. I found exactly one, the one I posted. So these VERY COMMON phrases are apparently only common to the ad I posted and the one you posted. Interesting, right?

By the way, are you now agreeing that you were wrong when you said "the wording isn't even that similar?"

I don't know enough about how google searches produce matches, so no I don't find it that interesting. The ads are different in that one specifies certain inpatient call(in completely unique wording) and one specifies no inpatient call. So that is a clear non-salary substitution phrase difference in the ads right there.

 

[vistaril]

I can't even advise a medicaid clinic for you because they also want to move meat. Looks like you're hunting for a shift supervisor at the local Taco bell.

I'll probably end up taking a position where I work out of someone elses practice, do things the way I find acceptable, and make about 100k. That will also give me the flexibility(I hope) to slowly pursue another area.

 

[Nasrudin]

I'll probably end up taking a position where I work out of someone elses practice, do things the way I find acceptable, and make about 100k. That will also give me the flexibility(I hope) to slowly pursue another area.

Slow clap....

Congratulations. Cut the drama and go do it captain. It's your ship.

 

[vistaril]

to bump this thread, it looks like I find something with a fairly large(for MH at least, meaning more than 3 other psychs) group in the area I was looking outside of academia or the VA where I could work on my terms(mostly):

-outpt, Monday-Thursday 830-430 and Friday 830-1230
-4 weeks paid vacation
-round on inpatient unit they cover once every 3 months(4x per year). It's only 21 beds total they cover. should be easy.
-minimum 30minute followups but Im going to have written in contract where average followup time(combining all types of patients)
has to average 38-40 minutes(haven't decided which yet)
-they pay 100% for license, malpractice, DEA recert, etc. No 401k, disability, or health insurance(I can do obamacare I guess) or student loan reimbursement
-105-110k salary
-noncompete clause within 45 miles, limited noncompete to 75 miles

 

[Shikima]

Ditch the non-compete clauses. You need to feel free to move anywhere you want. Include a 90 day opt-out clause without cause.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

to bump this thread, it looks like I find something with a fairly large(for MH at least, meaning more than 3 other psychs) group in the area I was looking outside of academia or the VA where I could work on my terms(mostly):

-outpt, Monday-Thursday 830-430 and Friday 830-1230
-4 weeks paid vacation
-round on inpatient unit they cover once every 3 months(4x per year). It's only 21 beds total they cover. should be easy.
-minimum 30minute followups but Im going to have written in contract where average followup time(combining all types of patients)
has to average 38-40 minutes(haven't decided which yet)
-they pay 100% for license, malpractice, DEA recert, etc. No 401k, disability, or health insurance(I can do obamacare I guess) or student loan reimbursement
-105-110k salary
-noncompete clause within 45 miles, limited noncompete to 75 miles

I'm not trying to be negative, but isn't 110k annual in the <25th percentile of psychiatric income?

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm not trying to be negative, but isn't 110k annual in the <25th percentile of psychiatric income?

In fairness, it's not a full time job. Though the hourly rate does come out on the low end of the job he initially posted.

What troubles me is the lack of benefits. I could see earning $110k if it was my dream job, but it would have to have benefits. The reason that county jobs tend to pay so little is that they have great benefit packages that would be very expensive.

Earning $110k, but paying for disability, retirement, and HEALTH would be a non-starter. Even Obamacare type insurance, income-driven, is going to be pricey for pretty rotten coverage. Add in $1000-2000/month for student loans (you'd pay $1100k/mo on IBR assuming $150k in loans). If you're going to be relying on a spouse, you're fine. If you're relying on yourself, it's going to be very tight.

There are definitely low paying psychiatrist jobs out there (though $110k is on the very low end) but they are typically in places that compensate with great benefits to offset (County, government, academics, etc.). This is forcing you to pay thousands more each month that is usually picked up by your employer. This will not allow Vistaril the lifestyle he's alluded to desiring in past posts.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I'm not trying to be negative, but isn't 110k annual in the <25th percentile of psychiatric income?

Look at his post history. He specializes in the <25th percentile.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

 

[vistaril]

In fairness, it's not a full time job. Though the hourly rate does come out on the low end of the job he initially posted.

What troubles me is the lack of benefits. I could see earning $110k if it was my dream job, but it would have to have benefits. The reason that county jobs tend to pay so little is that they have great benefit packages that would be very expensive.

Earning $110k, but paying for disability, retirement, and HEALTH would be a non-starter. Even Obamacare type insurance, income-driven, is going to be pricey for pretty rotten coverage. Add in $1000-2000/month for student loans (you'd pay $1100k/mo on IBR assuming $150k in loans). If you're going to be relying on a spouse, you're fine. If you're relying on yourself, it's going to be very tight.

There are definitely low paying psychiatrist jobs out there (though $110k is on the very low end) but they are typically in places that compensate with great benefits to offset (County, government, academics, etc.). This is forcing you to pay thousands more each month that is usually picked up by your employer. This will not allow Vistaril the lifestyle he's alluded to desiring in past posts.

I don't really disagree with a lot of this. I will say that my hours will be mid 30s, so close to full time. And I don't think the benefits in my case would be worth thousands per month. I can get health insurance for a couple hundred a month at most. Most private jobs in private sector with benefits don't offer 'thousands' per month in retirement per month(they may match up to 5000 or so on a 401k, some even less).

My loans and income will be such that I will probably IBR it. I think they went down to 10% above poverty right(?), so on 105k -20k(roughly poverty level) that would be 10% x 85k = 8.5k/year which is about 700 a month. Add 350 to that if it's 15% above poverty.

And yeah I agree the 105k and hourly rate isn't good. But that's the only way(in my search at least) I could see patients in a manner in which I saw fit. I'm not interested in working in a cmhc and just having social workers throw cases at me left and right to basically have me sign off on them. not interested in seeing a ton of quick 'med check' followups in private practice. And not interested in working in VA or academia. If I could tolerate those things(ethically and from an enjoyment standpoint), I could easily make a bit more I'm sure.

 

[vistaril]

Ditch the non-compete clauses. You need to feel free to move anywhere you want. Include a 90 day opt-out clause without cause.

they will do an even shorter opt out clause actually. But a firm no on the non-compete.

 

[notdeadyet]

And I don't think the benefits in my case would be worth thousands per month. I can get health insurance for a couple hundred a month at most. Most private jobs in private sector with benefits don't offer 'thousands' per month in retirement per month(they may match up to 5000 or so on a 401k, some even less).

I don't mean that you have to pay thousands of dollars per month for benefits. I mean that other job offers will offer thousands per month more in benefits. Retirement is a biggie, but healthcare is the real big one. The level of healthcare you get for a couple of hundred dollars via Obamacare is going to be high premium/high deductible care for limited providers (and where I live, the minimum is going to be $400 for this type of care). The healthcare you get from an actual employer is going to be many levels better than this.

My loans and income will be such that I will probably IBR it. I think they went down to 10% above poverty right(?), so on 105k -20k(roughly poverty level) that would be 10% x 85k = 8.5k/year which is about 700 a month. Add 350 to that if it's 15% above poverty.

Google IBR Calculator. You input your loan amount, the % interest, and your income. I plugged it in for $110K salary and $150K lonas and it came to $1100K/month.

By the way, did you confirm that this is a W-2 job and not a 1099 job?

And yeah I agree the 105k and hourly rate isn't good. But that's the only way(in my search at least) I could see patients in a manner in which I saw fit.

It's not a good job objectively, but we don't choose jobs objectively. You know what you're looking for and what you are willing to accept for the ability to get what you're looking for. If this one fits the bill, congratulations...

 

[notdeadyet]

they will do an even shorter opt out clause actually. But a firm no on the non-compete.

I don't blame them. This looks like a job offer targeting folks just out of residency who want longer appointments. These are exactly the sort of people that will get tired of the salary and want to set up their own practice after a year or so.

 

[Shikima]

they will do an even shorter opt out clause actually. But a firm no on the non-compete.

Then it won't be a good place for you to work.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

I don't really disagree with a lot of this. I will say that my hours will be mid 30s, so close to full time. And I don't think the benefits in my case would be worth thousands per month. I can get health insurance for a couple hundred a month at most. Most private jobs in private sector with benefits don't offer 'thousands' per month in retirement per month(they may match up to 5000 or so on a 401k, some even less).

My loans and income will be such that I will probably IBR it. I think they went down to 10% above poverty right(?), so on 105k -20k(roughly poverty level) that would be 10% x 85k = 8.5k/year which is about 700 a month. Add 350 to that if it's 15% above poverty.

And yeah I agree the 105k and hourly rate isn't good. But that's the only way(in my search at least) I could see patients in a manner in which I saw fit. I'm not interested in working in a cmhc and just having social workers throw cases at me left and right to basically have me sign off on them. not interested in seeing a ton of quick 'med check' followups in private practice. And not interested in working in VA or academia. If I could tolerate those things(ethically and from an enjoyment standpoint), I could easily make a bit more I'm sure.

Lol. Is 85k poverty level in America? Really?!

The mean income in America is lower than poverty?

 

[Shikima]

Lol. Is 85k poverty level in America? Really?!

The mean income in America is lower than poverty?

Taking into consideration the taxes, loan repayment, cost of living, etc...

 

[notdeadyet]

Taking into consideration the taxes, loan repayment, cost of living, etc...

It still ain't poverty. It puts you solidly middle class.

Not being able to afford the things you want doesn't make you poor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

vistaril, I think that is the type of job that would be a good fit for you (based on what you've posted on here in the past), though two things jump out at me:

1. The income is low, particularly if you are willing to accept a non-compete. Your services will be in demand most anywhere you go, so no sense cutting your own knees out before you start.
2. Benefit cost to the individual will continue to rise, so things like retirement matching can really start to sting if you aren't getting additional income that can help offset that $.

Best of luck w. your search for the right setup, as there is a lot to be said for practicing how you feel is best.

 

[TexasPhysician]

they will do an even shorter opt out clause actually. But a firm no on the non-compete.

With a no on non-compete, I'd counter at 50k more per year. That is a huge deal breaker for most physicians.

I don't understand why you don't start your own practice? You could bill at high levels for 40 min follow-ups and get huge tax deductions for self-employment. You could practice any way you want and get paid well.

If you just desire to take a low paying gig, all the power to you. Your situation in no way reflects normal psych jobs though.

To put this in perspective, this job pays less per hour than I made in PGY-2 moonlighting.

 

[vistaril]

Lol. Is 85k poverty level in America? Really?!

The mean income in America is lower than poverty?

no, 20k is about poverty level I think. they calculate ibr by having you pay a % of what you make above poverty level. I would estimate I would make about 85k above poverty level.

 

[vistaril]

With a no on non-compete, I'd counter at 50k more per year. That is a huge deal breaker for most physicians.

I don't understand why you don't start your own practice? You could bill at high levels for 40 min follow-ups and get huge tax deductions for self-employment. You could practice any way you want and get paid well.

If you just desire to take a low paying gig, all the power to you. Your situation in no way reflects normal psych jobs though.

To put this in perspective, this job pays less per hour than I made in PGY-2 moonlighting.

I don't want to start my own practice for a few reasons:

1) I don't think I have a skill set to attract cash pay patients in high numbers in the area I am moving.
2) Even if I did have this skill set(a big if), I wouldn't want to see nothing but that population. Or even mostly that population. People who have a couple hundred bucks to pay out of pocket in this economy aren't my favorite patients.....to treat. To have dinner with or watch a game with, sure.
3) Maybe eventually I could make a little more going to an insurance based private practice, but I doubt it. I've run the numbers for reimbursement per code and at the volumes I plan on doing and the hours I plan on working, I don't see a ton of margin. It's not like this is the only group I went to in the area. If there was this massive margin out there on the table at these volumes, it seems like some other group would have recognized that and snatched up the easy money.
4) I recognize that my new job is on the low end relative to 'normal' psych outpt jobs. But having worked these types of jobs during residency('normal' type clinics), I have no interest in such a thing. Nothing against people who do; it's just not what I wanted.

 

[Psychotic]

Sorry, but I think V is pulling our legs a bit.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

2) Even if I did have this skill set(a big if), I wouldn't want to see nothing but that population. Or even mostly that population. People who have a couple hundred bucks to pay out of pocket in this economy aren't my favorite patients.....to treat. To have dinner with or watch a game with, sure.

4) I recognize that my new job is on the low end relative to 'normal' psych outpt jobs. But having worked these types of jobs during residency('normal' type clinics), I have no interest in such a thing. Nothing against people who do; it's just not what I wanted.

Thank you. I've been reading your posts for months and wondering what I'm risking by pursuing psychiatry. I've finally realized that I can stop paying attention to you.

You've put my mind at ease Doctor.

 

[vistaril]

By the way, did you confirm that this is a W-2 job and not a 1099 job?
.

oh it's a 1099, so the 'effective salary' is actually a little less. They are just paying the license, malpal, dea, etc just out of their pockets. But the lack of other benefits would explain the 1099. So I can work my taxes a little better perhaps but Im going to be hit both ways on the fica

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Tyrone Slothrop, that was a rather snarky response.

--

In regard to the time issue….could some of the issue be mitigated by billing therapy + med management E/M codes? I belong to a billing listserv that discusses a lot of the nuances of billing, and it seems that the vast majority of conversations about how to most accurately account for a 30-45min session was through a combo of codes since a portion of the time was invariably spent providing at least supportive therapy if not CBT, etc.

ps. If it is a 1099, you are definitely getting low-balled. I agree with adding at least $50k to the deal. Accepting the non-compete is another discussion.

 

[primadonna22274]

I cannot jmagine working for $85-100k AS A BOARDED PHYSICIAN.
I've made more than this as a PA. Not in psych, but that's pretty average PA/NP salary. Which means they could hire a PMHNP or psych PA for that lowball salary and the midlevel could probably command more. To accept it as an MD/DO does no favors for the individual physician or the psychiatry community overall.
Please--keep negotiating. If you settle for such woeful underpayment now it will be very hard to overcome that as your career progresses. I might be able to see $130-140k if the job is right and the benefits terrific but much less than that? No way.

 

[vistaril]

Thank you. I've been reading your posts for months and wondering what I'm risking by pursuing psychiatry. I've finally realized that I can stop paying attention to you.

You've put my mind at ease Doctor.

Umm ok. I don't know why thought you were 'risking' anything by pursuing psychiatry.

 

[vistaril]

I cannot jmagine working for $85-100k AS A BOARDED PHYSICIAN.
I've made more than this as a PA. Not in psych, but that's pretty average PA/NP salary.

you guys are comparing apples to oranges. I'm going to average scheduling about 10 patients per day. Could I closer to 'average' salary seeing a higher volume of patients? Sure.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Umm ok. I don't know why thought you were 'risking' anything by pursuing psychiatry.

Really? Let's not play dumb now. You post constantly about how there is no money in the field and it's only getting worse. In this very thread in fact "Race to the bottom..". So I was definitely wondering if I was risking a life of subpar earnings.

I'm not so worried anymore. I've realized it isn't that people can't win in psychiatry, it's that you don't want to win. It isn't that there isn't money to be made, it's that you don't want to work and make it. Rather than just internalize that fact you spend an incredible amount of effort disparaging the field. The truth is you'd be just as miserable anywhere else.

That's just one man's theory anyway. I don't know you, you don't know me. No hard feelings or anything, and I don't think I'm giving you a lightbulb moment here. I only posted in case there is some other guy like me out there thinking "Hey, maybe this Vistaril guy is onto something..". I figured I'd do that guy a little favor.

 

[vistaril]

Really? Let's not play dumb now. You post constantly about how there is no money in the field and it's only getting worse. In this very thread in fact "Race to the bottom..". So I was definitely wondering if I was risking a life of subpar earnings.

I'm not so worried anymore. I've realized it isn't that people can't win in psychiatry, it's that you don't want to win. It isn't that there isn't money to be made, it's that you don't want to work and make it. Rather than just internalize that fact you spend an incredible amount of effort disparaging the field. The truth is you'd be just as miserable anywhere else.

That's just one man's theory anyway. I don't know you, you don't know me. No hard feelings or anything, and I don't think I'm giving you a lightbulb moment here. I only posted in case there is some other guy like me out there thinking "Hey, maybe this Vistaril guy is onto something..". I figured I'd do that guy a little favor.

of course it's possible to make more money than I will. Heck I've made more per hour myself. It's just a matter of what you want to do. If you want to do inpatient, you can make more money. I don't see anyone ever being *really* helped for the most part on inpatient, but whatever that's not an argument I feel like today. If you want to see a lot more patients per hour, you can make more money obviously. I never have disputed these things. I will say that I feel like fields like outpt medicine are more conducive and effective(from a pt care standpoint) in a high volume environment than psychiatry, so if you money is your main goal and you don't mind seeing high volume, why not do outpt medicine and do super super high volume. But again, those are individual choices. And finally I'm not miserable with my choice.