Re-Applicant. Help Please!

[Turpulus]

Here are my stats:
Verbal 10, Physics, 11, Biology 15, Essay Q

Undergraduate Major Biopsychology, BCPM GPA 3.47, AO: 3.74, cGPA 3.63

Master's Degree: Toxicology, Graduate BCPM GPA: 3.63, AO: 3.54, cGPA 3.56

Post bac Undergrad: BCPM GPA 3.93

Went to U of Michigan

I have about 5 years of professional pharmaceutical research experience. Over 10 years of medically related research experience. For 2012, I was not accepted anywhere. The main concern the schools had was that I did not have enough clinical experience, even though my research was conducted at a hospital, I had little patient interaction. I have been volunteering in the ER since May, which will give me patient interaction and physician shadowing experience. Last year, without the volunteer experience, I received interviews at 4 schools: Tufts, Ohio State, NJMS, and Wayne State. I was waitlisted at all 4. Any advice would be great. Thanks!

I completed all of my secondary applications by mid August. I received a handful of rejections. I received 2 interview invites so far and completed one of the interviews at Wayne State where I got waitlisted. I have another interview at Wake Forest in December. I've applied to 37 schools and I haven't heard back from the vast majority of them. However, people who applied after me to some of these schools are getting interviews and getting acceptances. I've called these schools and they keep telling me that my application is under review. Am I basically in the "reject later" pile at these schools or do I still have a shot at them? Should I start applying to more schools in anticipation of a later rejection from the other schools? Thanks.

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[msj6403]

Have you thought of MD/PhD? They tend to be lenient with a lack of clinical volunteering experience, I heard. 10 years of research sound like something that they will value highly.

I think that as long as you can still use that MCAT score next cycle, you should apply early (even complete before August or July if possible) and get as much clinical volunteering done as possible.

 

[gmcguitar4]

GPA is on the low end for MD/PhD. But MCAT and research experience are definitely on par for it.

There could be something about your LOR's or personal statement that schools don't like. Just give it some time though. Can you list your other EC's? hobbies? etc. that you put on AMCAS.

 

[Anathema]

Is your lack of clinical ECs that much if a damper? What other stuff do you have for your application?

 

[Turpulus]

I don't want to do the MD/PhD. I actually want to get out of the research world. It's a dead end in the U.S. unfortunately. My LOR are fine. I have 2 from managers at my pharmaceutical company, 1 from a physics professor that I just had, and I also included the LOR from my master's thesis advisor as an extra even though it is from 2007. I'm certain that all are positive. I'm prety sure mid august is early enough. I was really late the first time I applied which I know hurt me. I don't think I can apply for a third year in a row. I'll be 30 in March and feel that I am getting to old for med school. I've been getting a ton of clinical experience since May. I'm nearing 150 hours. It just doesn't reflect that on my primary since I submitted it having only volunteered for a couple of months. For my EC's: I listed my ER volunteering, all my research since 2001, internship at a dermatology office, working at 2 pharmaceutical companies, Safety Officer for laboratory safety, representative on my University's student government, columnist for the college newspaper, and campaign manager for a statewide ballot initiative. I feel like I'm credentialed enough to warrant an interview, I just don't know what the hold up is. If I submitted the secondary application in mid-August shouldn't I have heard back by now if I'm getting an interview?

 

[Anathema]

I don't want to do the MD/PhD. I actually want to get out of the research world. It's a dead end in the U.S. unfortunately. My LOR are fine. I have 2 from managers at my pharmaceutical company, 1 from a physics professor that I just had, and I also included the LOR from my master's thesis advisor as an extra even though it is from 2007. I'm certain that all are positive. I'm prety sure mid august is early enough. I was really late the first time I applied which I know hurt me. I don't think I can apply for a third year in a row. I'll be 30 in March and feel that I am getting to old for med school. I've been getting a ton of clinical experience since May. I'm nearing 150 hours. It just doesn't reflect that on my primary since I submitted it having only volunteered for a couple of months. For my EC's: I listed my ER volunteering, all my research since 2001, internship at a dermatology office, working at 2 pharmaceutical companies, Safety Officer for laboratory safety, representative on my University's student government, columnist for the college newspaper, and campaign manager for a statewide ballot initiative. I feel like I'm credentialed enough to warrant an interview, I just don't know what the hold up is. If I submitted the secondary application in mid-August shouldn't I have heard back by now if I'm getting an interview?

Your app sounds pretty fantastic honestly so I'm not sure about any Red-Flags. Mid August isn't too bad and you're right, some people on here have been hearing back from school who were complete around that date. Are you sure there weren't any technical issues? As in did all the schools receive the information they needed from you?

Did you make a big enough change between last time and this time? Your late application from last time combined with a lack in improvement between apps might be another issues but provide info on which activities you improved on for this cycle other than your new volunteering position.

 

[Turpulus]

The only red flag would be a little light on the community service. However, I applied to 37 schools, got rejected from 5 or so and got 2 interviews. The vast majority are still in limbo. I figure that some of these schools should offer me interviews from the sheer volume I applied to. I didn't update it that much from last year. I changed my personal statement, but the theme remains the same. I added my new volunteer experience, but most of my past history and experience didn't change. I can't imagine they would expect my past activities and experience to change on an application. I've called the schools and they assure me that my application is complete, itis just "under review." I've sent letters of interest to some of the schools, but it doesn't seem to get me any more interview invites. Is there anything I can do or any way I can interpret this? I'm reluctant to apply to anymore schools right now with so many schools still supposedly reviewing me. Is there any way to get some honest information out of them? If I know a rejection is coming in the future, then I can apply to some more schools.

 

[Goro]

It might be that it's still early in the cycle, but I'd bbe very surprised if you don't score some more interviews between now and Springtime. Your numbers are decent, and I wonder if you aimed too high?

I'd be interested in the list of schools you applied to. Shoot me an email if you desire.

Here are my stats:
Verbal 10, Physics, 11, Biology 15, Essay Q

Undergraduate Major Biopsychology, BCPM GPA 3.47, AO: 3.74, cGPA 3.63

Master's Degree: Toxicology, Graduate BCPM GPA: 3.63, AO: 3.54, cGPA 3.56

Post bac Undergrad: BCPM GPA 3.93

Went to U of Michigan

I have about 5 years of professional pharmaceutical research experience. Over 10 years of medically related research experience. For 2012, I was not accepted anywhere. The main concern the schools had was that I did not have enough clinical experience, even though my research was conducted at a hospital, I had little patient interaction. I have been volunteering in the ER since May, which will give me patient interaction and physician shadowing experience. Last year, without the volunteer experience, I received interviews at 4 schools: Tufts, Ohio State, NJMS, and Wayne State. I was waitlisted at all 4. Any advice would be great. Thanks!

I completed all of my secondary applications by mid August. I received a handful of rejections. I received 2 interview invites so far and completed one of the interviews at Wayne State where I got waitlisted. I have another interview at Wake Forest in December. I've applied to 37 schools and I haven't heard back from the vast majority of them. However, people who applied after me to some of these schools are getting interviews and getting acceptances. I've called these schools and they keep telling me that my application is under review. Am I basically in the "reject later" pile at these schools or do I still have a shot at them? Should I start applying to more schools in anticipation of a later rejection from the other schools? Thanks.

 

[Anathema]

Sure his GPA isn't a 3.7+ but it's around the average which isn't bad but I consider his MCAT to be phenomenal. I'm not an adcomm and I don't have any experience in this, but I really don't think his numbers should be holding him back. It just seems like luck and time right now. Maybe it is too early and maybe schools are currently backlogged on applications.

Keep us updated on the process and don't get too discouraged. Being a 30 is a bummer to alot of people but you have more going for you than most with your experiences.

 

[Turpulus]

I just wanted to give an update on my situation, hoping that someone has some insight. This admissions cycle, I tripled the number of the schools I appied to, but only received 2 interviews, as opposed to last admissions cycle having 4 interviews. I don't get it. I'm extremely frustrated right now. My application has only improved, with my added clinical experience of volunteering in the emergency department. Why did I do so much more poorly this time around. I don't even know if I should be applying for a third admissions cycle! Please help!!!!!

 

[eDITN]

A couple questions:

1) Did you have people look over your PS and/or some of your secondary essays? Have you gotten any feedback on your writing? I worry that perhaps your essays didn't explain quite why you have decided to drastically change your career path, but that is just a hypothesis.

2) Which 37 schools did you apply to? Were they a lot of top schools or a broad mix of mid and lower tier as well? What state are you from - Michigan?

 

[gyngyn]

I just wanted to give an update on my situation, hoping that someone has some insight. This admissions cycle, I tripled the number of the schools I appied to, but only received 2 interviews, as opposed to last admissions cycle having 4 interviews. I don't get it. I'm extremely frustrated right now. My application has only improved, with my added clinical experience of volunteering in the emergency department. Why did I do so much more poorly this time around. I don't even know if I should be applying for a third admissions cycle! Please help!!!!!

Re-applicants (especially with high MCAT scores) can be seen as "pre-screened" and thus less likely to be offered an interview. If you got two interviews I'm hoping that you are still in the running this cycle.

 

[aspiring20]

Re-applicants (especially with high MCAT scores) can be seen as "pre-screened" and thus less likely to be offered an interview. If you got two interviews I'm hoping that you are still in the running this cycle.

can you explain this?

 

[gyngyn]

can you explain this?

There are only so many reasons for an unsuccessful cycle. With good stats you are only left with factors that are less amenable to improvement with effort and interest: weak communication skills, empathy...

When a screener sees a numerically strong re-applicant the differential diagnosis shifts to a different set of potential weaknesses.

 

[Turpulus]

A couple questions:

1) Did you have people look over your PS and/or some of your secondary essays? Have you gotten any feedback on your writing? I worry that perhaps your essays didn't explain quite why you have decided to drastically change your career path, but that is just a hypothesis.

2) Which 37 schools did you apply to? Were they a lot of top schools or a broad mix of mid and lower tier as well? What state are you from - Michigan?

I did change my personal statement between applications, but not significantly. The themes and ideas remained the same, so I don't think that's what the problem is. I did have all of my essays reviewed by multiple people, including doctors who have previously sat on medical school admissions committees. They thought they were fine. I applied to a broad range of schools. I tried to cover everything. Yes, I had my top dream schools on there, but I also applied to NYMC and Drexel in addition to a lot of mid-range schools. I received interviews at Wayne State and Wake Forest, but 3 of the schools I previously received interviews at have yet to make me an interview offer. It may very well be that they don't like reapplicants and consider me pre-screened. How do I get around that? I'm really really frustrated. I feel like I'm being passed over because I'm just too non-traditional of an applicant.

 

[gyngyn]

I did change my personal statement between applications, but not significantly. The themes and ideas remained the same, so I don't think that's what the problem is. I did have all of my essays reviewed by multiple people, including doctors who have previously sat on medical school admissions committees. They thought they were fine. I applied to a broad range of schools. I tried to cover everything. Yes, I had my top dream schools on there, but I also applied to NYMC and Drexel in addition to a lot of mid-range schools. I received interviews at Wayne State and Wake Forest, but 3 of the schools I previously received interviews at have yet to make me an interview offer. It may very well be that they don't like reapplicants and consider me pre-screened. How do I get around that? I'm really really frustrated. I feel like I'm being passed over because I'm just too non-traditional of an applicant.

Where I work, recently interviewed candidates are much less likely to receive a second interview after a failed cycle. If the committee did not want them 6 months ago the odds that a similar committee would have a dramatically different opinion is small. It seems kinder and more efficient not to put the school and the applicant through an expensive and fruitless exercise. This may be the case for the schools that already interviewed you.

 

[Goro]

Your numbers are strong, but your lack of success at landing an interview makes me drag out the list of usual suspects.

Is there a red flag in your file? It could be a really bad LOR, an IA. a felony or multiple misdemeanors.

Was there ANY weak performance in your Master's performance? I could see where even a single C might kill you at a mid or high-tier school.

The fact that you got interviews says your packet is complete, hence we can rule that out.

Your wait-listings after the interviews you did get say that either your interview skills need improvement, or whatever is in your file that is getting you rejected is enough to convince the interviewers not to accept you.

If you're having trouble with MD schools, keep in mind that DO schools are a lot more forgiving.

Despite what my colleague says, I've found that most Admissions Deans can be helpful in letting you know what your weaknesses are, and whether you're competitive at thier school.

gyngyn is correct in stating that for your 2nd application, schools want to see that you've really improved. Simply adding more clinical experience might not be enough.

I did change my personal statement between applications, but not significantly. The themes and ideas remained the same, so I don't think that's what the problem is. I did have all of my essays reviewed by multiple people, including doctors who have previously sat on medical school admissions committees. They thought they were fine. I applied to a broad range of schools. I tried to cover everything. Yes, I had my top dream schools on there, but I also applied to NYMC and Drexel in addition to a lot of mid-range schools. I received interviews at Wayne State and Wake Forest, but 3 of the schools I previously received interviews at have yet to make me an interview offer. It may very well be that they don't like reapplicants and consider me pre-screened. How do I get around that? I'm really really frustrated. I feel like I'm being passed over because I'm just too non-traditional of an applicant.

 

[FedExpress85]

Your numbers are strong, but your lack of success at landing an interview makes me drag out the list of usual suspects.

Is there a red flag in your file? It could be a really bad LOR, an IA. a felony or multiple misdemeanors.

Was there ANY weak performance in your Master's performance? I could see where even a single C might kill you at a mid or high-tier school.

The fact that you got interviews says your packet is complete, hence we can rule that out.

Your wait-listings after the interviews you did get say that either your interview skills need improvement, or whatever is in your file that is getting you rejected is enough to convince the interviewers not to accept you.

If you're having trouble with MD schools, keep in mind that DO schools are a lot more forgiving.

Despite what my colleague says, I've found that most Admissions Deans can be helpful in letting you know what your weaknesses are, and whether you're competitive at thier school.

gyngyn is correct in stating that for your 2nd application, schools want to see that you've really improved. Simply adding more clinical experience might not be enough.

What is an IA? Based on context, I assume IA means legal issues (felonies, misdeamonors, etc.)

 

[gyngyn]

Institutional action.

 

[tongtongbravo]

As a fellow Umich Student, I feel your pain. I dont think we can point anything out based on what you told us so far. Esp, schools in michigan (like Wayne..) know how tough it is to maintain high GPA in Umich.
Everything looks better than average in my eyes. Have you contacted the schools that rejected(or havent offered you an interview) for explanations?

 

[user3]

4 waitlists and they didn't get off any of them. Ouch.

 

[occams_razor]

Your numbers are strong, but your lack of success at landing an interview makes me drag out the list of usual suspects.

Is there a red flag in your file? It could be a really bad LOR, an IA. a felony or multiple misdemeanors.

Was there ANY weak performance in your Master's performance? I could see where even a single C might kill you at a mid or high-tier school.

The fact that you got interviews says your packet is complete, hence we can rule that out.

Your wait-listings after the interviews you did get say that either your interview skills need improvement, or whatever is in your file that is getting you rejected is enough to convince the interviewers not to accept you.

If you're having trouble with MD schools, keep in mind that DO schools are a lot more forgiving.

Despite what my colleague says, I've found that most Admissions Deans can be helpful in letting you know what your weaknesses are, and whether you're competitive at thier school.

gyngyn is correct in stating that for your 2nd application, schools want to see that you've really improved. Simply adding more clinical experience might not be enough.

I am very surprised that the OP was not accepted. It makes me think there is a red flag somewhere. OP, if I were you I would definitely apply DO

 

[Turpulus]

Alright, I have a little more insight into my situation. First, I had one of the physicians I work with in the ER take a look at my application. He also teaches at one of the medical schools I can't get an interview at. He was just as frustrated as me. After reading it he said "I don't understand why you aren't in a top medical school right now!" After that, I met with an admissions officer to get some insight. She told me that there were no major red flags, but there are little things that add up. Even after everything she told me, I still can't imagine them all adding up to making me ineligible for an interview. First, she told me that it wasn't good that I completed a physics class at a community college instead of a 4 year institution. I went to the University of MIchigan and just took a single semester of physics recently to fulfill the physics requirement. She went over my letters of recommendation and told me that they were very positive. The problem was that one of my letters was from my master's thesis advisor from 2007 and she felt it was too old. My issue is that a lot of schools want to see three academic letters of recommendation. I've only taken two classes since 2007, so where am I supposed to get recent academic letters? Her final criticism was that I didn't have enough variety of volunteer clinical experience. I have over 500 hours of shadowing a dermatologist in college and 100 hours of volunteering in my local emergency room. Also, at my job, I interact daily with physicians in clinical pharmacology. She wouldn't give me a straight answer regarding pre-screening of reapplicants, but she told me that they need to see a significant change between applications. Overall, my feeling was that she wanted me to be more like a 22 year old traditional applicant, rather than a 30 year old who has been working a steady job since 2007 performing relevant medical research. Any thoughts? I'm so frustrated.

 

[Turpulus]

I am very surprised that the OP was not accepted. It makes me think there is a red flag somewhere. OP, if I were you I would definitely apply DO

I applied to DO programs too. I applied a later than I did with the allopathic programs. I applied in November, when I realized I wasn't hearing anything back from the 37 allopathic programs. Haven't heard anything at all from the DO programs.

 

[Turpulus]

Anyone have advice on how to overcome this re-applicant bias where they consider me pre-screened since I"m a reapplicant? Do I just need to apply to new schools? This is so frustrating.

 

[Goro]

I'm appalled that a school would ding you for taking physics at a CC. If anything, avoid that school in your re-applications. I suspect that perhaps you aimed to high in your school list, but still, the dings, even cumulative, are picayune.

I think that once Mar/Apr rolls around you'll start getting interviews from DO schools. Juyst double check that the dates of your LORs are OK with them. But didn't you take your MS mroe recently? If so, and if you haven't done so already, get fresher LORs from that program.

If you're shut out this cycle, then definitely add more DO schools to your list, and only low-tier MD schools that you haven't tried previously.

This also illustrates that Admissions folk can be quite helpful to even re-applicants.

Anyone have advice on how to overcome this re-applicant bias where they consider me pre-screened since I"m a reapplicant? Do I just need to apply to new schools? This is so frustrating.

 

[gyngyn]

This also illustrates that Admissions folk can be quite helpful to even re-applicants.

Michigan: kinder than California!

 

[user3]

Not all schools treat reapplicants in this manner. I know of a top tier DO school, for example, where the admissions director plainly told me that all reapplicants have a clean slate. I know of another DO school whose admissions director told me they do not keep track of applications year to year. LizzyM's school also does not compare year to year applications. I think this is how it should be. No one should be rejected that would have been competitive BUT for being a reapplicant. That is just asinine IMO.

 

[gyngyn]

Not all schools treat reapplicants in this manner. I know of a top tier DO school, for example, where the admissions director plainly told me that all reapplicants have a clean slate. I know of another DO school whose admissions director told me they do not keep track of applications year to year. LizzyM's school also does not compare year to year applications. I think this is how it should be. No one should be rejected that would have been competitive BUT for being a reapplicant. That is just asinine IMO.

This is why we are recommending a focus on DO schools in the next application cycle.