RE: Why you should not go to medical school

[DermViser]

He's a witch! Buuuuurrrrnnnn hiiiimmmmm!

Don't worry the all-knowing Premeds of SDN will descend on @GuyWhoDoesStuff in no time.

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[yankeebeckham]

LOL @ NickNaylor. The truth is med school sucks, residency sucks and while medicine is in many ways a fulfilling career, days off are still better than days at the hospital. Nobody is going to tell you they like their black weekends better than their golden weekends.
You're wasting a tremendous amount of energy thinking about how you won't be miserable before you even get a chance to be miserable. Enjoy your pre-medical days--you're never going to be this free again. And I would worry about getting into medical school before stressing out about which specialty to choose.

 

[DermViser]

I entered medical school thinking "I don't care what specialty I end up in . . . any type of medicine excites me and I'd be thrilled with FM/IM. As it stands now, if I wasn't in Derm (or a similar field), I may very well be regretting my decision to go to medical school. I still love medicine in general and all of the science and whatnot, but there is a ton of BS involved with becoming a practicing clinician. Some of it is institutionally-implemented, some of it is patient-induced, but it all wears on you just the same.

Funny how that all changes after the preclinical years, MS-3, and seeing how fields operate with your very own eyes. Yet medical education academics who write journal articles on this type of stuff are shocked (shocked I tell ya!), that this happens and just can't seem to understand why. Just blame it on the money - that must be it.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

I really don't know much about neurology or critical care. Peds sub-specialty depends on what you're looking at. I imagine peds cardiology and surgery are awful while peds derm, endo, etc. are good.

Just to clarify a bit....Pediatric dermatology is a subspecialty of derm, just as pedi surg is a fellowship after surgery.

As far as the lifestyle DURING fellowship for pediatric specialties, I agree that it can be somewhat dependent on the field with in-house night call standard for the critical care fields (NICU/PICU/pedi cards) and home call most common for the others both during fellowship and to some degree as an attending. Is that "awful"? Well, that's a matter of opinion of course. I don't think so, but of course, others are free to disagree.

 

[DermViser]

LOL @ NickNaylor. The truth is med school sucks, residency sucks and while medicine is in many ways a fulfilling career, days off are still better than days at the hospital. Nobody is going to tell you they like their black weekends better than their golden weekends.
You're wasting a tremendous amount of energy thinking about how you won't be miserable before you even get a chance to be miserable. Enjoy your pre-medical days--you're never going to be this free again. And I would worry about getting into medical school before stressing out about which specialty to choose.

Wrong. Medical school sucks. Depending on the specialty and program, residency doesn't have to suck. Anyone who goes into medical school, being married to a specialty without being flexible is in for a great world of hurt.

 

[NickNaylor]

Just to clarify a bit....Pediatric dermatology is a subspecialty of derm, just as pedi surg is a fellowship after surgery.

As far as the lifestyle DURING fellowship for pediatric specialties, I agree that it can be somewhat dependent on the field with in-house night call standard for the critical care fields (NICU/PICU/pedi cards) and home call most common for the others both during fellowship and to some degree as an attending. Is that "awful"? Well, that's a matter of opinion of course. I don't think so, but of course, others are free to disagree.

One of the peds derm people on faculty at our children's hospital actually went the other way (peds residency and then a derm... residency?). I remember when I was looking into peds this seemed to be somewhat of an option, but I have no idea how possible or common it is.

 

[Temerit]

This was a nice read, I'm glad the OP decided to start this thread. My thanks to the med students/residents for their input.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Look up "reasons not to go to grad school."

Ew dude after doing research, I'd rather wash dishes than do grad school.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I think @NickNaylor hit the nail on the head. Just because you know the numbers and the work hours doesn't mean that you appreciate the toll that it will have on you, especially after years of doing it.

I'm not saying the actual stress of the situation is light because you know the numbers. I'm saying the points presented should be common knowledge and the shock value of "you thought you were going to be rich and in charge" would only have an effect on the unprepared. It shouldn't come as some unimaginable outcome when you're in medical school, and it seems that those that tend to write these things had the most idealistic and fantastical perceptions of medicine to begin with. I don't think I've read a single one that the author said I knew it was going to be insanely hard, I was going to make mi in wage, etc etc, then wrote something like this. I never said I disagreed with the author, I think the facts are there but the reasons for not going into medicine seems absurd. Perception and outlook from a psychological standpoint will vastly change two people's experience even in the exact same situations. Premeds should be realistic, ask questions, get at the root of a career in medicine, and throw out all their silly aspirations for game and fortune. When I shadow 90% of my questions are family and emotionally related, that's my reality, my family.

I for one have worked for lawyers, doctors (though peds and fm mostly), public health professionals and even reps on the hill. And I've seen each one have breakdowns, in tears and under great pressure. No career field really has the flowery picture ugrads tend to paint. As a premed, do your due diligence, at least then it's not a big shock... That only makes it harder to swallow.

 

[circulus vitios]

Here we go again with the whole best years of your life thing again. The belief that 22-35 are the best years of your life because you're young and can buy/do harmful substances that don't harm your body is kind of a backwards belief. Why is it that society says we have to live a certain lifestyle when we are a certain age? I'm 20 and I HATE those things, I'm sure other kids my age love them as equally as I hate them, but even those kids have work, school and responsibilities. Why can't I spend my twenties in an environment with people of my similar tastes and ambition, learning about stuff that I freakin love!!!! and will use in the future. Why can't one light a cigar or get totally wrecked from time to time in med school or residency? You are allot four weeks off each year. The thinking that the best years are behind you and wasted effect everyone not just doctors and it's a very poisonous ideology, imagine the good and fun you can achieve by pushing yourself each year to surpass yourself the previous year. BTW: no matter which field you're in you're always gonna have horrible, jerky superiors I learned that this summer with my first "real" job.

Learning isn't fun when it's all you do, day in and day out for a decade. Four weeks of vacation during residency is generous, the average is closer to three weeks and I doubt it's enough when you've been pulling 60 or 80 hour weeks every week for months on end.

 

[lmn]

Ew dude after doing research, I'd rather wash dishes than do grad school.

Same thing. *nudge* get it?

 

[lmn]

Learning isn't fun when it's all you do, day in and day out for a decade. Four weeks of vacation during residency is generous, the average is closer to three weeks and I doubt it's enough when you've been pulling 60 or 80 hour weeks every week for months on end.

Important to include that plenty of residents will also use that time to moonlight. Sure you can say it is their choice, but when you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, living expenses, and can make many times your residency "hourly" wage by moonlighting, it would probably be very enticing to you as well.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Same thing. *nudge* get it?

Sure med school is grueling and you are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, but when you are done, there is a nice pay out that's almost guaranteed. Grad school is a world of uncertainty until you get tenure. But by then a huge amount of people who actually got PhDs already dropped out of the race. NO THANKS! lol

 

[atomi]

1) You will lose all the friends you had before medicine.

Definitely not true. I made very few friends in med school I keep in touch with. I keep in touch and visit almost all the true friends I had before med school.

2) You will have difficulty sustaining a relationship and will probably break up with or divorce your current significant other during training.

This is true. I went through a number of relationships before finding one that works with my lifestyle. The point here is that it is possible to find one that works with being a doctor.

3) You will spend the best years of your life as a sleep-deprived, underpaid slave.

This is true and one of the worst things about doing this IMO. It is not a healthy way to live.

4) You will get yourself a job of dubious remuneration.

Disagree. Doctors are compensated extremely well. A major reason I went to med school, like almost everybody whether they admit it or not, was to make more money. Unfortunately (or rather fortunately), this goal will not sustain you. Personally, I realized I didn't need the amount of money doctors earned and doing it for the money didn't make any sense anymore. I had to (and fortunately did) find another reason to continue. But I don't think I'm like most people after learning about the life goals of others in med school. I think this sentiment comes from people who go to med school because they want to earn $500k+/year and become disillusioned and unhappy when they realize this most likely isn't going to happen.

#5)You will have a job of exceptionally high liability exposure
Yes, but moreso I would say that you will have a job with exceptionally high levels of regulation. If you get any sort of legal trouble in your personal life, your career is jeopardized. If you do anything that could be viewed as "unprofessional" you risk being kicked out of med school, residency, or losing your license and ability to make a living. You are at the subjective mercy of other people in this profession.

#6) You will endanger your health and long-term well-being.

You have some control over this. Medicine is a risky profession, but I could think of many others that are more risky.

#7)You will not have time to care for patients as well as you want to

Well, your patients come first, so if you don't have time to care for your patients well, then how could you possibly care for yourself or your family?

#8)You will start to dislike patients — and by extension, people in general

I have become increasingly more grumpy and agitated, but not at patients, just the general public. I actually like working with patients. Lots of people don't, though.

#9) People who do not even know you will start to dislike you

There is certainly a segment of the population who hate doctors the same way people hate cops. They think doctors are money-grubbing jerks who become unfairly rich by pushing pills on people and will call you a "phony" while instead turning to the "honest" kind of doctors they believe are truly trying to help them: natruopaths, chiropractors, energy healers, etc. I don't really care if these people don't like me because I don't like them. The patient whom you truly help and is grateful makes it all worthwhile.

#10) You’re not helping people nearly as much as you think.

This is highly variable and depends on what you do. Some doctors save lives everyday. Some actively hurt people. Try to be the former.

 

[La Presse]

Ew dude after doing research, I'd rather wash dishes than do grad school.

lol i'm rolling. However, when people ask me my post-graduation plans, I say something along the lines of "I'm thinking of graduate school."

It's hilarious really. All my PIs smile sweetly and then say things like, "Yeah, academics is a great career. Good for you."

 

[DermViser]

One of the peds derm people on faculty at our children's hospital actually went the other way (peds residency and then a derm... residency?). I remember when I was looking into peds this seemed to be somewhat of an option, but I have no idea how possible or common it is.

I could definitely see that. Yes, there are definitely people who do Peds residency, then do Peds derm clinics at their children's hospitals and realize how much they like it and apply for Derm and then do a Peds derm fellowship (although this last step isn't necessarily required). There is an example in which someone did a Peds residency did a specific Pedi Derm fellowship that took Pediatric residents, and then applied for Derm residency: http://www.kumc.edu/school-of-medic...logy/residency-program/current-residents.html.

 

[masaraksh]

Important to include that plenty of residents will also use that time to moonlight. Sure you can say it is their choice, but when you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, living expenses, and can make many times your residency "hourly" wage by moonlighting, it would probably be very enticing to you as well.

How do you moonlight as a resident? (Haven't you not completed your training yet?)


Edit: isn't no chicks, no money, no power, no chicks the reason to not go into medicine ?

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

How do you moonlight as a resident? (Haven't you not completed your training yet?)

Assuming that you meet the licensing requirements, your program allows it, and you don't run over your hour limitations, then you can moonlight as a resident. I get the impression it is not as prevalent as it used to be, though

 

[masaraksh]

Assuming that you meet the licensing requirements, your program allows it, and you don't run over your hour limitations, then you can moonlight as a resident. I get the impression it is not as prevalent as it used to be, though

Sounds like setting yourself up to be sued, tbh.

 

[circulus vitios]

Sounds like setting yourself up to be sued, tbh.

It's usually urgent care work, or maybe working in the emergency department with a large number of attendings who can check over your work if you're unsure. As far as I know, it's not like surgery residents are moonlighting as actual surgeons.

 

[mimelim]

Important to include that plenty of residents will also use that time to moonlight. Sure you can say it is their choice, but when you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, living expenses, and can make many times your residency "hourly" wage by moonlighting, it would probably be very enticing to you as well.

I don't know a single resident who moonlights during their non-research years and certainly none that moonlight during their vacations. Maybe its just being in surgery where we actually do work ~80 hours a week. My home institution doesn't allow moonlighting while you are a clinical resident. The 3 neighboring institutions have varying policies, but like I said, probably know ~50-70 residents and none moonlight. If you only work 40-50 hours/week in a less demanding residency I can see it being a lot more popular, but then again, a lot easier to do/handle since you are still working less than other residents.

 

[circulus vitios]

I don't know a single resident who moonlights during their non-research years and certainly none that moonlight during their vacations. Maybe its just being in surgery where we actually do work ~80 hours a week. My home institution doesn't allow moonlighting while you are a clinical resident. The 3 neighboring institutions have varying policies, but like I said, probably know ~50-70 residents and none moonlight. If you only work 40-50 hours/week in a less demanding residency I can see it being a lot more popular, but then again, a lot easier to do/handle since you are still working less than other residents.

I know FM residents at a local teaching hospital can moonlight in the ED for a few shifts per month. Like you said, it's probably more common in 'easier' residencies like FM, EM, radiology, psych, some IM programs, etc.

 

[alpinism]

I was definitely one of those working class heroes who thought being a nontrad and of somewhat humble beginnings meant I was going to be immune to the cynicism all these residents/attending were expressing (despite being a natural born cynic anyway).

Believe me when I say, many (if not most) of you will succumb to it in some way, shape, or form. Hell, I'm in one of the "best" specialties out there and much of what the author says resonate with me. I entered medical school thinking "I don't care what specialty I end up in . . . any type of medicine excites me and I'd be thrilled with FM/IM. As it stands now, if I wasn't in Derm (or a similar field), I may very well be regretting my decision to go to medical school. I still love medicine in general and all of the science and whatnot, but there is a ton of BS involved with becoming a practicing clinician. Some of it is institutionally-implemented, some of it is patient-induced, but it all wears on you just the same.

Medicine is still a good career, and can be very fulfilling both personally/professionally and financially. But many of you are likely woefully underprepared for what you'll find on the other side of that MCAT.

Caveat emptor.

Agree with all of this.

I was the same way as well.

It isn’t so much the long hrs and stress that gets most people, its the all the meaningless BS in medicine and that fact that you put in so much work for relatively little in return (i'm not talking about money or job stability).

#7-10 in the article are especially true.

 

[NickNaylor]

My thoughts on his article as a pre-med. Maybe I'm naive, but these are my thoughts.

1) You will lose all the friends you had before medicine.

Highly doubt that. Sure, if a move is needed then you might not see them as much, but I doubt one would be so busy that it'd be impossible to keep in contact.

2) You will have difficulty sustaining a relationship and will probably break up with or divorce your current significant other during training.

Okay? If you're not willing to sacrifice that, it seems like that just shows your level of commitment to your career more than anything else.

3) You will spend the best years of your life as a sleep-deprived, underpaid slave.

Aww, poor residents . Lettuce beef real tea: look at any lawyer, accountant, investment banker, etc. who's trying to make it to the top (as a partner or whatever), and you'll see that most of them are putting in tons of hours while making less money than they want to. Plus, residency is an investment in your future as a physician. Would you want doctors to not have on-the-job training? Then why act like it's unnecessary or ridiculous?

4) You will get yourself a job of dubious remuneration.

Eh. Seems like this just goes back to the delusions that a lot of physicians seem to have about the real world. It's a lot more difficult to make lots of money in other fields than you think. Doctors aren't paid terribly. Furthermore, the vast majority of people who've been around this forum have already been told that if you're going into it for the money, you won't last. So at least anyone here should already be cognizant of this.

#5)You will have a job of exceptionally high liability exposure
Comes with the career I guess.

#6) You will endanger your health and long-term well-being.
Seems like the burden is on you to try to take care of yourself within the context in which you find yourself.

#7)You will not have time to care for patients as well as you want to
Seems subjective.

#8)You will start to dislike patients — and by extension, people in general
Not sure what to think about that.

#9) People who do not even know you will start to dislike you
You can't please everyone.

#10) You’re not helping people nearly as much as you think.

Again, subjective. I doubt that a good doctor in any substantive field isn't helping people significantly.

You are naive, but that's ok. Your perspective will change soon enough.

 

[jb94mg]

You are naive, but that's ok. Your perspective will change soon enough.

Interesting. Even if pre-meds are naive and misinformed, though, should they let that stop them, given that they've done the commonly recommended things (shadowing, clinical experience, etc.) in order to ensure that this is what they want?

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Interesting. Even if pre-meds are naive and misinformed, though, should they let that stop them, given that they've done the commonly recommended things (shadowing, clinical experience, etc.) in order to ensure that this is what they want?

No, what they should do is not comment about things that they have yet to experience.

 

[DermViser]

My thoughts on his article as a pre-med. Maybe I'm naive, but these are my thoughts.

1) You will lose all the friends you had before medicine.

Highly doubt that. Sure, if a move is needed then you might not see them as much, but I doubt one would be so busy that it'd be impossible to keep in contact.

2) You will have difficulty sustaining a relationship and will probably break up with or divorce your current significant other during training.

Okay? If you're not willing to sacrifice that, it seems like that just shows your level of commitment to your career more than anything else.

3) You will spend the best years of your life as a sleep-deprived, underpaid slave.

Aww, poor residents . Lettuce beef real tea: look at any lawyer, accountant, investment banker, etc. who's trying to make it to the top (as a partner or whatever), and you'll see that most of them are putting in tons of hours while making less money than they want to. Plus, residency is an investment in your future as a physician. Would you want doctors to not have on-the-job training? Then why act like it's unnecessary or ridiculous?

4) You will get yourself a job of dubious remuneration.

Eh. Seems like this just goes back to the delusions that a lot of physicians seem to have about the real world. It's a lot more difficult to make lots of money in other fields than you think. Doctors aren't paid terribly. Furthermore, the vast majority of people who've been around this forum have already been told that if you're going into it for the money, you won't last. So at least anyone here should already be cognizant of this.

#5)You will have a job of exceptionally high liability exposure
Comes with the career I guess.

#6) You will endanger your health and long-term well-being.
Seems like the burden is on you to try to take care of yourself within the context in which you find yourself.

#7)You will not have time to care for patients as well as you want to
Seems subjective.

#8)You will start to dislike patients — and by extension, people in general
Not sure what to think about that.

#9) People who do not even know you will start to dislike you
You can't please everyone.

#10) You’re not helping people nearly as much as you think.

Again, subjective. I doubt that a good doctor in any substantive field isn't helping people significantly. Further, people have to truly, genuinely want your help for you to be able to help them.

You are a horridly naive and your answers demonstrate your completely lack of experience in this area. No worries, you'll see the realities soon enough.

 

[DermViser]

Interesting. Even if pre-meds are naive and misinformed, though, should they let that stop them, given that they've done the commonly recommended things (shadowing, clinical experience, etc.) in order to ensure that this is what they want?

No, but they should stop bloviating about things they know nothing about, esp. to those who want to genuinely find out what medicine is like. Your checked the box "shadowing" and "clinical experience" is nothing like MS-3 required clerkships, residency, and medicine in general.

 

[DermViser]

No, what they should do is not comment about things that they have yet to experience.

Then the entire SDN Pre-Allo thread would be empty. Half of being an SDN premed is pretending you know what you're talking about.

 

[Doudline]

You are naive, but that's ok. Your perspective will change soon enough.

It's been interesting watching your progression so far on SDN.

You went from a very logical, thought-centered argumentator to one who uses fallacies in the majority of his posts (see appeal to authority, mind projection). Oh well. What do I know, right?

 

[DermViser]

It's been interesting watching your progression so far on SDN.

You went from a very logical, thought-centered argumentator to one who uses fallacies in the majority of his posts (see appeal to authority, mind projection). Oh well. What do I know, right?

Actually, I would say @NickNaylor's views are still quite logical and thought-centered which have adjusted based on his actual experiences of having actually gone through medical school (and before you say it - a top tier med school at that). I would say he's a much better person to take advice from than the one who says, "So there's this guy in my Mechanics class - sex on a stick...What do you think are my chance of tapping dat ass?" Don't you agree?

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

It's been interesting watching your progression so far on SDN.

You went from a very logical, thought-centered argumentator to one who uses fallacies in the majority of his posts (see appeal to authority, mind projection). Oh well. What do I know, right?

Care to tell us where he is wrong?

 

[NickNaylor]

It's been interesting watching your progression so far on SDN.

You went from a very logical, thought-centered argumentator to one who uses fallacies in the majority of his posts (see appeal to authority, mind projection). Oh well. What do I know, right?

Well, no. You mistake my intention. The reason I make appeals to authority is because I myself know pretty intimately the common arguments made against what I say now because I believed them myself. I also recognize my own stubbornness and now see it in others and recognize the futility of trying to argue against it. So yeah, it's an appeal to authority, but it's not for the purposes of winning an argument. It's to simply share my experience. Where I start to get pissy is when people who have not so much as stepped foot in a classroom claim to know more about the experience than I do - in some kind of intellectually ******ed reverse appeal to authority - out of sheer arrogance. I know that it's out of sheer arrogance because I used to believe it myself; I used to think that all of the difficulties with being in medicine and being a trainee couldn't happen to ME because those people didn't know ME. I imagine many people feel the same.

You only know what you know. I don't use "naive" as an insult as you seem to have interpreted it.


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[Doudline]

Actually, I would say @NickNaylor's views are still quite logical and thought-centered which have adjusted based on his actual experiences of having actually gone through medical school (and before you say it - a top tier med school at that). I would say he's a much better person to take advice from than the one who says, "So there's this guy in my Mechanics class - sex on a stick...What do you think are my chance of tapping dat ass?" Don't you agree?

I didn't end up tapping, if that's of any interest... sad, cause he really was a cutie.

(And I don't have any problem admitting that NN has more substance than I do when it comes to medical school experience )

Well, no. You mistake my intention. The reason I make appeals to authority is because I myself know pretty intimately the common arguments made against what I say now because I believed them myself. I also recognize my own stubbornness and now see it in others and recognize the futility of trying to argue against it. So yeah, it's an appeal to authority, but it's not for the purposes of winning an argument. It's to simply share my experience. Where I start to get pissy is when people who have not so much as stepped foot in a classroom claim to know more about the experience than I do - in some kind of intellectually ******ed reverse appeal to authority - out of sheer arrogance. I know that it's out of sheer arrogance because I used to believe it myself; I used to think that all of the difficulties with being in medicine and being a trainee couldn't happen to ME because those people didn't know ME. I imagine many people feel the same.

You only know what you know. I don't use "naive" as an insult as you seem to have interpreted it.


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I understand what you mean and where you come from. Yet, I think that you're shooting yourself in the foot with this behavior.

What do you think happens in the mind of premed X when you say "Well, you're wrong; you can't understand until you go through med school"? He's certainly not thinking "Shut up, oh beautiful NickNaylor, and take my money!", but rather "Pfft, whatever, he's just another one of these jaded people who hate medicine and think they know everything."

You're effectively aggravating their sentiment of being misunderstood, and are pushing them further into their own trenches of thought, far away from logical arguments. This is why seasoned debaters never appeal to authority, even if they're a 100% right, because it eliminates all possibility of forging one's own opinion, and thus it's a dreadful educational tool.

Just my 2 cents anyway.

 

[NickNaylor]

I didn't end up tapping, if that's of any interest... sad, cause he really was a cutie.

(And I don't have any problem admitting that NN has more substance than I do when it comes to medical school experience )



I understand what you mean and where you come from. Yet, I think that you're shooting yourself in the foot with this behavior.

What do you think happens in the mind of premed X when you say "Well, you're wrong; you can't understand until you go through med school"? He's certainly not thinking "Shut up, oh beautiful NickNaylor, and take my money!", but rather "Pfft, whatever, he's just another one of these jaded people who hate medicine and think they know everything."

You're effectively aggravating their sentiment of being misunderstood, and are pushing them further into their own trenches of thought, far away from logical arguments. This is why seasoned debaters never appeal to authority, even if they're a 100% right, because it eliminates all possibility of forging one's own opinion, and thus it's a dreadful educational tool.

Just my 2 cents anyway.

I actually agree with you to a large degree, but I think the problem is there is no logical argument to be made. I've mentioned this several times before, but medical training is an inherently experiential process. I think appeals of authority are completely valid because that's the whole basis on which we go from pre-meds to full-blown physicians.

My points and discussion would be far more nuanced if I got the sense that people were actually interested in having a discussion that everyone involved could benefit from. That is seldom the case here, however, and I assume the worst simply because I don't want to spend my free time here getting frustrated by attempting to have a reasonable discussion with people doing the equivalent of plugging their ears screaming LA LA LA LA.


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[DermViser]

I didn't end up tapping, if that's of any interest... sad, cause he really was a cutie.

(And I don't have any problem admitting that NN has more substance than I do when it comes to medical school experience )



I understand what you mean and where you come from. Yet, I think that you're shooting yourself in the foot with this behavior.

What do you think happens in the mind of premed X when you say "Well, you're wrong; you can't understand until you go through med school"? He's certainly not thinking "Shut up, oh beautiful NickNaylor, and take my money!", but rather "Pfft, whatever, he's just another one of these jaded people who hate medicine and think they know everything."

You're effectively aggravating their sentiment of being misunderstood, and are pushing them further into their own trenches of thought, far away from logical arguments. This is why seasoned debaters never appeal to authority, even if they're a 100% right, because it eliminates all possibility of forging one's own opinion, and thus it's a dreadful educational tool.

Just my 2 cents anyway.

Most SDN premeds think so highly of themselves they would never believe the truth anyways, with or without appeal to authority.
Many premeds (even some med students) unwittingly support Obamacare without knowing ANYTHING about what provisions are actually in the law that directly affect physicians and how they will practice. That tells you everything right there.

 

[Doudline]

Yes, I've heard that point before.

Which is why I'm puzzled at your -aimed at no one in particular- persistence at coming here and trying to convince people that you detain the truth. If you don't believe that premeds can be changed, what's the use lol?

We're all masochists in our own way, I guess, uh.

 

[Falconclaw]

So it is of course silly for pre-meds to evaluate the claims the author made. BUT most of the people who agree with the author are either med students or residents. Med school and residency are already widely thought of as unpleasant experiences.
However, based on my experience with doctors who've gone through that, and have their own practice or are part of the a partnership (I know this is becoming rarer), it seems that their life is pretty good. They basically are able to set their own hours and make a very good living, while of course doing meaningful work.
If you're just looking at the early years, sure, it's probably better to be a lawyer or an accountant or an investment banker. But most of those people are still stuck in corporate structures and putting in rather long hours even when they're 50. It seems to me that for a doctor, once you make it to 35 your life is fairly smooth sailing.
Anyway, once again, I'm just a pre-med, so my take on this is pretty worthless. But let me ask: How many of you, if you could do it over again, would go into another profession?

 

[mehc012]

With all due respect, I think it's a little bit funny for the OP to critique this physician's perspective of why being a doctor isn't everything she dreamed it would be before even getting into medical school! Yes, being a physician is an absolute privilege, but until you have woken up at 3am in the morning to go to work, or been cussed out by patients, or worked several weeks without a day off, or worked for 36 hours in a row, you don't understand that there are elements of the job that just absolutely suck, and suck hard. To respond to point 8--there will be patients you dislike and there will be days you dislike humanity. That's the reality of the grind of the situation.
When I first applied to medical school, I envisioned myself going from room to room, being super excited, saving lives. Now that I'm in the field, there are some moments of excitment, but there's a lot more of hard work, a lot of busy work, and a crap ton of BS. Would I still go into medicine know what I knowing now? Probably. But until you're in the field, you don't realize how accurate that article is. You just can't. Hold onto you enthusiasm as long as you can, but you'll realize that as you control less and less of your life, it gets harder and harder to do so. But then as you re-emerge from your training, while you've lost some naivety and idealism, you get some of the joy and enthusiasm back.

Woken at 3am to go to work: check
Been cussed out by patients: check
Worked several weeks without a day off: check
Worked 36hrs in a row: close, but no cigar...I only worked 36/40, not 36 consecutive.

Am I a physician? No. Do I understand what it's like to be a physician? I suppose I won't until I'm there doing it, though I have a reasonable idea for a few specialties (and yeah. But what I don't get is this pervasive opinion on SDN that nobody can understand what it means to work really hard (3 of your 4 points) until they are a doctor.

As for the rest of it...what I am concerned about is being able to pay the price for going to med school. That being, literally, the sticker price for med school. I don't care about being a big earner beyond that. I just want to pay off my debts and still have enough money to live by. I don't want a house, a nice car, a wedding, or private school for my kids. I don't see my friends now, I have never had an S.O., I have lived the hell out of my life thus far and am rarely jealous of my friends' adventures despite being a bit trapped schedule-wise right now. Tons of people endanger their health for their jobs - say, the vast majority of manual laborers of any sort. At least when you're in medicine you are endangering your health in ways that you are aware of, educated about, and equipped with better resources, etc. to handle. I would rather get 8 strains of the flu, take a course of antivirals after a needle stick, and worry about TB than deal with years of pain, limited mobility, judgement, and fighting with insurance/worker's comp over a mechanical injury (especially as many of the people in those situations find themselves in no position to really appreciate their prognosis or understand how to advocate for themselves).

The last 4 points: there's not much to be said. This is just true. I've never been a physician and I can see that, just from having worked closely with them for almost a year. These are the real issue, and these are the points which really need to be outweighed by the enjoyment you DO get out of the cases that go the right way - where you help a nice patient with a scary problem who truly appreciates the work and extra effort you put in to make the situation less uncomfortable and they recover without issue. Or at least a few pieces of that equation.

So, yeah, call me naïve, but I don't think that it's impossible to know what you're getting into, in the broad sense, if you do your homework and find a few different vantage points.

 

[NickNaylor]

Yes, I've heard that point before.

Which is why I'm puzzled at your -aimed at no one in particular- persistence at coming here and trying to convince people that you detain the truth. If you don't believe that premeds can be changed, what's the use lol?

We're all masochists in our own way, I guess, uh.

Because maybe - just maybe - the point can be presented in a way that's more understandable or appreciable on the 1001st time than it was in the previous 1000.

 

[NickNaylor]

Woken at 3am to go to work: check
Been cussed out by patients: check
Worked several weeks without a day off: check
Worked 36hrs in a row: close, but no cigar...I only worked 36/40, not 36 consecutive.

Am I a physician? No. Do I understand what it's like to be a physician? I suppose I won't until I'm there doing it, though I have a reasonable idea for a few specialties (and yeah. But what I don't get is this pervasive opinion on SDN that nobody can understand what it means to work really hard (3 of your 4 points) until they are a doctor.

As for the rest of it...what I am concerned about is being able to pay the price for going to med school. That being, literally, the sticker price for med school. I don't care about being a big earner beyond that. I just want to pay off my debts and still have enough money to live by. I don't want a house, a nice car, a wedding, or private school for my kids. I don't see my friends now, I have never had an S.O., I have lived the hell out of my life thus far and am rarely jealous of my friends' adventures despite being a bit trapped schedule-wise right now. Tons of people endanger their health for their jobs - say, the vast majority of manual laborers of any sort. At least when you're in medicine you are endangering your health in ways that you are aware of, educated about, and equipped with better resources, etc. to handle. I would rather get 8 strains of the flu, take a course of antivirals after a needle stick, and worry about TB than deal with years of pain, limited mobility, judgement, and fighting with insurance/worker's comp over a mechanical injury (especially as many of the people in those situations find themselves in no position to really appreciate their prognosis or understand how to advocate for themselves).

The last 4 points: there's not much to be said. This is just true. I've never been a physician and I can see that, just from having worked closely with them for almost a year. These are the real issue, and these are the points which really need to be outweighed by the enjoyment you DO get out of the cases that go the right way - where you help a nice patient with a scary problem who truly appreciates the work and extra effort you put in to make the situation less uncomfortable and they recover without issue. Or at least a few pieces of that equation.

So, yeah, call me naïve, but I don't think that it's impossible to know what you're getting into, in the broad sense, if you do your homework and find a few different vantage points.

There's a difference between intellectually understanding the grind and actually experiencing it. I think that's a point people fail to understand. Yeah, I had the experience of working 30+ hours/week doing ****ty jobs and overall being treated like garbage too. And I, too, didn't "think it was impossible to know what I was getting into." What you might consider to be a unique experience - an experience that REALLY prepared you for medical school and medical training more than the million other people that have had similar experiences and yet experienced variable degrees of disillusionment - really isn't. I'm not going to try and explain why you "can't know it till you do it" because you'll come to this truth in the next few years of your life. Any attempt I make to challenge that notion will simply be repudiated because you think your perspective is more well-founded than it is. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I should add that I think that I'm really going to love being a physician and am more than happy with my choice to pursue medicine generally and my chosen field specifically. I'm not a miser and I'm not here with the goal of bringing some kind of doom and gloom picture that attempts to portray medicine as the worst job ever. However, a lot of the recurring themes - some of which are so utterly clueless that it's astounding - you see in pre-allo are worth challenging not to try and be "right" or otherwise demonstrate some kind of superiority, but, instead, to try and give those people a dose of reality such that they might really consider what they're signing up for and whether they might be happy doing something else. A lot of this cluelessness is patently visible in this very thread.

 

[DermViser]

Woken at 3am to go to work: check
Been cussed out by patients: check
Worked several weeks without a day off: check
Worked 36hrs in a row: close, but no cigar...I only worked 36/40, not 36 consecutive.

Am I a physician? No. Do I understand what it's like to be a physician? I suppose I won't until I'm there doing it, though I have a reasonable idea for a few specialties (and yeah. But what I don't get is this pervasive opinion on SDN that nobody can understand what it means to work really hard (3 of your 4 points) until they are a doctor.

As for the rest of it...what I am concerned about is being able to pay the price for going to med school. That being, literally, the sticker price for med school. I don't care about being a big earner beyond that. I just want to pay off my debts and still have enough money to live by. I don't want a house, a nice car, a wedding, or private school for my kids. I don't see my friends now, I have never had an S.O., I have lived the hell out of my life thus far and am rarely jealous of my friends' adventures despite being a bit trapped schedule-wise right now. Tons of people endanger their health for their jobs - say, the vast majority of manual laborers of any sort. At least when you're in medicine you are endangering your health in ways that you are aware of, educated about, and equipped with better resources, etc. to handle. I would rather get 8 strains of the flu, take a course of antivirals after a needle stick, and worry about TB than deal with years of pain, limited mobility, judgement, and fighting with insurance/worker's comp over a mechanical injury (especially as many of the people in those situations find themselves in no position to really appreciate their prognosis or understand how to advocate for themselves).

The last 4 points: there's not much to be said. This is just true. I've never been a physician and I can see that, just from having worked closely with them for almost a year. These are the real issue, and these are the points which really need to be outweighed by the enjoyment you DO get out of the cases that go the right way - where you help a nice patient with a scary problem who truly appreciates the work and extra effort you put in to make the situation less uncomfortable and they recover without issue. Or at least a few pieces of that equation.

So, yeah, call me naïve, but I don't think that it's impossible to know what you're getting into, in the broad sense, if you do your homework and find a few different vantage points.

Medicine isn't something that if you check off a list of experiences like you have done, that you are then somehow magically more prepared for medicine. This will esp. be the case when the interference by third party payers, the govt., objective metrics, will directly affect how you care for patients. Doctors have lost a large amount of their autonomy and continue to lose any further autonomy they have left when it comes to making medical decisions.

You're thinking like the prototypical black and white world premed. You'll also realize that your list of what you want in your life will change greatly. You have not yet even begun to experience the amount of delayed gratification you'll have to go through, in all aspects of your life, esp. since there are other medical pathways to reach that same spot faster.

It's very easy now for you to say what you want in life as a premed and are ok with years of delayed gratification in your life. It's another thing to experience it altogether, esp. when those are years you will never be able to get back.

 

[lmn]

I don't know a single resident who moonlights during their non-research years and certainly none that moonlight during their vacations. Maybe its just being in surgery where we actually do work ~80 hours a week. My home institution doesn't allow moonlighting while you are a clinical resident. The 3 neighboring institutions have varying policies, but like I said, probably know ~50-70 residents and none moonlight. If you only work 40-50 hours/week in a less demanding residency I can see it being a lot more popular, but then again, a lot easier to do/handle since you are still working less than other residents.

I don't know many people in surgery who moonlight, and I actually haven't really asked them if any of their fellow residents do, so maybe it just isn't common for surgical residents? I do know quite a few FM/IM that do though, and although they can definitely have lower time rotations, I have seen a few continue during very busy rotations/times - but I think it really depends on the individual and their financial needs at the time. A few I know are supporting their families as the main income earner, and were hoping to earn as much as possible to help ease their financial burdens and speed up this such as home buying, and possibly knowing that you only have to deal with 3 years of residency vs 5+ makes it easier to tolerate a few more shifts. But as far as overall occurrence for all residents across the country, I have no idea - nor do I know percentage wise how common it is for residency programs to give an ok on moonlighting.

 

[LanaPeters]

"There is certainly a segment of the population who hate doctors the same way people hate cops"


I just want to add that I think "resent" instead of "hate" is more applicable.

It's the entire system that people resent. For example, not to go off topic, but think about the things people used to be able to buy OTC to manage their own "health" that the FDA has put on lockdown. Is it a coincidence that an obesity epidemic started when the most effective OTC stimulants were systematically banned, followed by anti-smoking campaigns? Just saying that many people feel painted in to a corner with the health care system- which isn't a doctors fault per se. But doctors are in the line of fire with a patient who can't even buy Sudafed without ending up in a meth database.

Is this worse than other professions? Maybe. But I'm sure accountants get their fair share of displaced frustration

 

[username456789]

Is it a coincidence that an obesity epidemic started when the most effective OTC stimulants were systematically banned, followed by anti-smoking campaigns?

 

[LanaPeters]

I was just giving one example of how the public, like specifically some older individuals, become frustrated and resentful with today's health care systems. It is not a valid reason to not go to medical school IMO, but it is a valid and relevant point that pre-medical students should consider. Plenty of older people today think that their health is being taken advantage of for profit. Someone born in the 1930's an 1940's is coming from a radically different place than someone born in 1990 (probably the average age of most med students today). I'm definitely generalizing but my bigger point had to do with why some people have resentment toward doctors today, one of the reasons given to not go to medical school.

Just saying. But in terms of the thread topic (again, don't want to derail anything), I think displaced resentment is found in most professions thus it is not a good reason to avoid medical school.

 

[mehc012]

There's a difference between intellectually understanding the grind and actually experiencing it. I think that's a point people fail to understand. Yeah, I had the experience of working 30+ hours/week doing ****** jobs and overall being treated like garbage too. And I, too, didn't "think it was impossible to know what I was getting into." What you might consider to be a unique experience - an experience that REALLY prepared you for medical school and medical training more than the million other people that have had similar experiences and yet experienced variable degrees of disillusionment - really isn't. I'm not going to try and explain why you "can't know it till you do it" because you'll come to this truth in the next few years of your life. Any attempt I make to challenge that notion will simply be repudiated because you think your perspective is more well-founded than it is. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I should add that I think that I'm really going to love being a physician and am more than happy with my choice to pursue medicine generally and my chosen field specifically. I'm not a miser and I'm not here with the goal of bringing some kind of doom and gloom picture that attempts to portray medicine as the worst job ever. However, a lot of the recurring themes - some of which are so utterly clueless that it's astounding - you see in pre-allo are worth challenging not to try and be "right" or otherwise demonstrate some kind of superiority, but, instead, to try and give those people a dose of reality such that they might really consider what they're signing up for and whether they might be happy doing something else. A lot of this cluelessness is patently visible in this very thread.

Fair enough, though I assume you meant 70+ and not 30+
I get what you're saying, and I do realize that you never really understand something until you do it (as I said in my post initially), but the problem I have is this:
It is one thing to decry people who are all "It is all bunnies and fluff and everyone will love me!" Then, making points like those in the OP's list actually adds new things for them to consider.

However, people who are looking at lists like the one in the OP and really considering what those points will mean for them are literally doing all they can to prepare and decide whether that list is bad enough to deter them. Working in similar conditions, talking to docs, reading up on the downsides, etc...yeah, you don't know until you DO it, but you have to make the decision to be a doc before you can become one, so we're kind of topping out here.

I just don't see that the "you are wrong it is so much worse than you think" ADDS anything in a thread like this, because people are already considering those downsides to the best of their abilities. So instead, it just comes off the same way as a bunch of college students shaking their heads at a high school study group and laughing at how 'they think their work is actually difficult, lol!'

 

[Falconclaw]

So, out of curiosity, for the older people commenting here:
How many of you, if you could do it over again, would go into another profession?

 

[NickNaylor]

Fair enough, though I assume you meant 70+ and not 30+
I get what you're saying, and I do realize that you never really understand something until you do it (as I said in my post initially), but the problem I have is this:
It is one thing to decry people who are all "It is all bunnies and fluff and everyone will love me!" Then, making points like those in the OP's list actually adds new things for them to consider.

However, people who are looking at lists like the one in the OP and really considering what those points will mean for them are literally doing all they can to prepare and decide whether that list is bad enough to deter them. Working in similar conditions, talking to docs, reading up on the downsides, etc...yeah, you don't know until you DO it, but you have to make the decision to be a doc before you can become one, so we're kind of topping out here.

I just don't see that the "you are wrong it is so much worse than you think" ADDS anything in a thread like this, because people are already considering those downsides to the best of their abilities. So instead, it just comes off the same way as a bunch of college students shaking their heads at a high school study group and laughing at how 'they think their work is actually difficult, lol!'

It acts as a counterweight to the complete nonsense that was being shared by some of the posts in this thread and many others. Whether or not you agree with it, use it to inform your decision-making, etc. is a whole other matter. Some people will take this sort of stuff to heart and really think about it. Most won't. Just because the latter might be true doesn't mean some kind of self-censorship is appropriate in my view.

People come to this forum to ask questions, learn about the application process, learn about the training process, and learn about the career. I think my and others' responses falls squarely within that objective, and just because you or others find that the posts don't "add" anything to the discussion doesn't mean that everyone feels that way.

 

[mehc012]

It acts as a counterweight to the complete nonsense that was being shared by some of the posts in this thread and many others. Whether or not you agree with it, use it to inform your decision-making, etc. is a whole other matter. Some people will take this sort of stuff to heart and really think about it. Most won't. Just because the latter might be true doesn't mean some kind of self-censorship is appropriate in my view.

People come to this forum to ask questions, learn about the application process, learn about the training process, and learn about the career. I think my and others' responses falls squarely within that objective, and just because you or others find that the posts don't "add" anything to the discussion doesn't mean that everyone feels that way.

I'll be perfectly frank with you: I find you at least one of the top 10 most helpful SDNers. Your posts are always polite, well-phrased, accurate, and to the point. I'm in no way trying to say that you shouldn't post what you do - that would be not only silly and rude, but would generally be the opposite of what I want in any given thread.

I'm just curious as to what you (and others posting similar "it is so much less awesome than you think" sentiments) actually intend for us to take away in these situations. As I said, I can see it if people are completely neglecting to research the downsides of medicine. But if the obstacle is not an intellectual lack of knowledge on the subject, but instead simply the innate understanding which comes only with experience, I don't understand what we are expected to learn on here. It seems that the best which could be hoped for is that we make as much of an effort as we can to become familiar with medicine and try to wear past the shiny veil of excitement and mystery...and if that is already happening, what's next? I am not objecting because "most won't" consider them. I am trying to point out that these comments are frequently directed at those who already have considered, or are at least attempting to consider, these points and it's frustrating because in that case there is no good response, either on the forum or in my own thoughts/plans.