realistic salaries

[erg923]

A few weeks ago, someone posted a job adverstisement for a therapist at a state hospital that started at 60k. This is still quite sad, but from what I heard about starting salaries, it pretty common, if not on the high end for starting. Anyone have any first-hand info on starting salaries for various clinical positions. I'm curious to see the ranges by setting, typeof work, and by region. I see alot of job advertisements, but few if any ever post the salary, much less your evetual potential salary after 5-10 years at the place.

I know there is potential in PP to make six figures, but what im realy interesed in is how much one can start at in salaried postions and how high it can go? Probably too vaque a question but we'll see what gets posted.

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[FadedC]

The one piece of information I've researched and can share with you is that according to NYASP, the average salary for a starting PhD in school psychology in New York State is 61,738, plus about 1,000 in stipends. I believe this only takes into account ones who actually go to work in schools though.

For other average salaries, you may be able to find some more information on the APA website. Of course if your looking for maximum possible salaries then the averages don't help all that much.

 

[deleted176373]

You'll remember that I posted that the starting (non licensed) salary for clinical psychologists in the Navy was about $70k and $92k at the end of year 3 post internship assuming that you are licensed.

What is important to remember about that number is that roughly $30k is NON-TAXABLE. This would make your taxable income as follows (not assuming the ~3% year pay increase for inflation.)

~42k taxable for the first 24 months of service (including internship)
~48k taxable for the second 24 months of service (including internship)
~52K taxable after 48 months of service (including internship)

Add $5k taxable to the number after licensure
Add $6k taxable to the number after ABPP certification

As you can imagine getting $30k tax free is a sweet deal. To give you an example...

My wife and I have the same withholding:

Her salary is $110k taxable; monthly take home income is $5,600 a month.
My "salary" is $55k; my take home is $6060 per month.

Mark

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Mark....would you ever consider adopting a slightly older but still fun "son"/mod of the forum?

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RE: Income

It is a somewhat difficult question to answer because there are such a range of options out there. The most depressing numbers I see are at facilities who don't bother differentiating between doctoral level and non-doctoral level positions. If you see a job posting like that, 99% of the time you will be woefully under-paid.....yet people still take them.

For VA jobs, a psychologist starts as a GS-12, though I'm not sure at which "step". Here is a useful page that talks about wage adjustments based on your location: http://www.fedjobs.com/pay/pay.html It looks like the pay isin't great, but I've heard they will start to pay more for certain areas (ABPP is one rumor I heard), and the benefits can be very good.

Private practice is always a wild card because there are differences in service provided (therapy v. assessment v. consultation), insurance v. non-insurance, sliding scale v. non-sliding scale, and seperate negotiated rates for private contracts (ex. EAPs). You also need to look at part-time v. full-time, sole propriatorship v. group v. contract work, tax liability (LLC v. S-Corp, etc), if you account for appreciation v. depreciation factors, etc.

So.....the short answer for full-time PP salaries.....$150k+ for a good business person, $75-100k+ for a decent business person who can carry an 80%+ caseload, $50-75k for someone who grinds, <$50k for the less inclined, and <$25k for someone who goes about it haphazardly.

I'll defer on academic compensation, as I haven't looked much into that, but there can be large differences for adjuncts (poor money), associate professors (decent, sometimes), tenured professors (decent to good), and then your Big Names (very good for those who have side gigs or $$$ funding).

 

[edieb]

as someone who is now looking for a first job, I can tell you a bit -

V.A.s - right out of internship, you start at a GS-11 and go to 12 after licensure. You make $55K at GS-11 and GS-12 you make around $60K. Go to USAJOBS.GOV and type in "psychologist" to see the pay for a gs-11. V.A. jobs are the highest paying jobs I know of.

State hospitals - From the states I have looked at, state hospital jobs pay around $30K a year right out of internship and go to $45K or so the next year (after licensure) In Louisiana, the salaries are much higher, starting at $80K right after internship and going to $94K immediately after licensure. However, Louisiana has a very strong psychological association and this is likely why salaries are so much higher there

Medical Schools - From what I have seen, entry-level faculty jobs pay around $40K for PhDs. However, I am not sure what the pay is after that

overall, do not go into psychology for $$$. There is not much demand for psychologists compared to psychiatrists. A friend (psychiatry) and I posted our CVs on a mental health site and he literally got 40 phone calls in a week, and I got NONE. Recruiters were offering him crazy money, offering to pay for his plane ticket, hotel, etc to go to the interviews. On the other hand, with a PhD you have to fight and scrap for a mediocre paying job. Luckily, I have little debt and no kids, so $60K for a single person is pretty good. however, if I had dependents and/or high amounts of debt, it would be SO depressing. Another thing to consider: if it is this hard to find a decent job with a soon to be conferred PhD from a respected university-based program and APA internship, I don't even want to know how hard it would be to get a job with a degree from a professional school and a non APA internship.... Maybe it's not any harder, but I wouldn't want to find out...

 

[erg923]

good points. My wife and I married during grad school and would like to start our family after the internship year or the following year, so yea, 60k and paying back paying student loans isn't gonna cut it. But i agree, for a single person, its fine. But unless you plan, or wnat to stay single the rest of your life, I would still be pissed about it.

 

[Ollie123]

I'm surprised to hear that pay is so low at the medical schools you looked at edieb. Last I heard we start new faculty at a minimum of 75k (NCI Cancer Center, 50% soft/50% hard). 38k is the minimum for post-docs and it goes up well past 40 as you spend more time in a post-doc. People would be better off staying post-docs than accepting jobs at that pay rate!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm surprised to hear that pay is so low at the medical schools you looked at edieb. Last I heard we start new faculty at a minimum of 75k (NCI Cancer Center, 50% soft/50% hard). 38k is the minimum for post-docs and it goes up well past 40 as you spend more time in a post-doc. People would be better off staying post-docs than accepting jobs at that pay rate!

Ditto. I could have sworn I've seen in the low 60's with a minority being soft money. Most/All of the post-doc fellowships I'm looking at have been between $37-$48k (first year). The lower end have been in very affordable areas, so it is livable.

Louisiana is on my short-list of places to live long term....so I'm glad to hear they have livable wages.

 

[psychmama]

The state hospital I'm at pays licensed psychologists in the range of $75-90k, and that's with excellent benefits and an 8:30-5 schedule. Not amazing, but decent, especially if you squeeze in some PP patients in the evenings.

 

[edieb]

Ditto. I could have sworn I've seen in the low 60's with a minority being soft money. Most/All of the post-doc fellowships I'm looking at have been between $37-$48k (first year). The lower end have been in very affordable areas, so it is livable.

Louisiana is on my short-list of places to live long term....so I'm glad to hear they have livable wages.

The medical school positions I looked at were clinically based and did not involve any research. The schools were wayne state (detroit), tulane (new orleans), and baylor (houston).

 

[edieb]

The state hospital I'm at pays licensed psychologists in the range of $75-90k, and that's with excellent benefits and an 8:30-5 schedule. Not amazing, but decent, especially if you squeeze in some PP patients in the evenings.

correct me if i am wrong, but aren't you in nyc? 75K in a big city isn't very good but if you are in a place with a low cost of living, it is definitely doable

 

[LM02]

In the medical school where I work, starting salaries are at or above what Ollie posted.

Also, my understanding was that licensure + one year of "specialized experience" can usually push a VA position to the GS-13 level (which has a salary range of about $80K - $110K). So you might benefit from waiting to start a VA position 1 year after licensure - which, practically speaking, may take that long anyway given the length of time it takes for them to actually hire anyone these days!

 

[psychgirl05]

i was looking up salaries for a school psychologist (masters only, not a doctorate) and most of the salaries were between $80,000-$90,000! And this is only with a masters! I'm not sure if it's just the geographical location (southern cali) but does anyone know if this is the norm for school psychologists?

 

[psychmama]

correct me if i am wrong, but aren't you in nyc? 75K in a big city isn't very good but if you are in a place with a low cost of living, it is definitely doable

Yes, you're correct that I'm in NYC. I guess it's true that this salary won't get you a luxury lifestyle around here. Believe me, there was a time in my life when I wouldn't have thought that making $70-80,000 was good. I guess I've just been a starving grad student for so long that it sounds decent (especially compared to an intern's salary).

 

[Ollie123]

i was looking up salaries for a school psychologist (masters only, not a doctorate) and most of the salaries were between $80,000-$90,000! And this is only with a masters! I'm not sure if it's just the geographical location (southern cali) but does anyone know if this is the norm for school psychologists?

Cali is an anomaly because the cost of living is astronomically high, so salaries tend to look pretty inflated across the board. Friend of mine just finished her job hunt recently (same thing...master's in School psych) and looked at a lot of places around the country. Pay is pretty good for a master's degree, but you won't see anywhere near 80-90k starting in most places. Though for a senior school psychologist, its not unreasonable most places.
Edieb - sorry, didn't realize those were clinical-only positions, that makes more sense. The positions I was referring to were 100% research jobs, with clinical involvement only to the extent of possibly doing clinical research. I find this very interesting because rumor has it that not long ago, clinical work paid substantially better than academia. Save for the folks running larger private practices, it seems that is no longer the case. The VA salaries are pretty good, but the 40k med school job is just plain awful. Like I said, one would be better off staying a post-doc!

 

[medium rare]

Not to depress anyone, but as a comparison psychiatric NPs in my area are receiving starting salaries between $120,000-$130,000/year. This includes full benefits with an average of 5 weeks paid vacation starting in the first year.

Keep in mind that psych NPs have only a master's degree and a fraction of the training that a clinical psychologist receives not to mention the significantly shorter (~2 years) training period. These salaries reflect the huge demand for mental health providers with Rx authority. Yet another compelling reason for psychologists to be advocating for RxP.

 

[erg923]

These salaries reflect the huge demand for mental health providers with Rx authority. Yet another compelling reason for psychologists to be advocating for RxP.

I'm not sure earing potential is an ethically appopriate reason to shift the focus of a dicipline. How bout advocating and putting some reasearch beheind the value of what tis dicipline has to offer?

 

[medium rare]

I'm not sure earing potential is an ethically appopriate reason to shift the focus of a dicipline. How bout advocating and putting some reasearch beheind the value of what tis dicipline has to offer?

Acquiring prescriptive authority is not shifting the focus of the discipline. It's adding a treatment modality that psychologists are more than able to learn.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Acquiring prescriptive authority is not shifting the focus of the discipline. It's adding a treatment modality that psychologists are more than able to learn.

but then you guys would become psychiatrists...

 

[deleted176373]

adopt?

We've decided to adopt, but you'll have to move here first.

 

[nononora]

I know someone who just started a job in a state prison in Pennsylvania earning 56k pre-licensure and 68k once he gets his license.

I know some that take out loans think that they're earning $-30k a year so earning $25k on internship is a $55k swing. That troubles me.

 

[docjohng]

It's adding a treatment modality that psychologists are more than able to learn.

Not without adding to the length of the already long 4-5 year degree. I had 2, maybe 3 courses that were directly relevant to neurobiology and human physiology in grad school. If it requires the equivalent of another 2 years of courses (such as what an NP takes), then that should add 2 more years on to most people's grad school studies as a psychologist.

Unless the curriculum for clinical psychology was full of 2 years' worth of unneeded or unnecessary courses up to now...

John

 

[medium rare]

Not without adding to the length of the already long 4-5 year degree. I had 2, maybe 3 courses that were directly relevant to neurobiology and human physiology in grad school. If it requires the equivalent of another 2 years of courses (such as what an NP takes), then that should add 2 more years on to most people's grad school studies as a psychologist.

Unless the curriculum for clinical psychology was full of 2 years' worth of unneeded or unnecessary courses up to now...

John

That's why all advocated models of RxP training are at the postdoctoral level. It's specialty training that occurs after receiving the doctorate and only by those who believe it is worth pursuing.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

Army, 0-3, 7 years TIS.

Total Entitlements- $77,746.08
Not Taxed-$18,360.48
Taxable- $59,385.60
After taxes (and pre-tax Thrift Savings Plan) - $64,272.40

As Mark pointed out, you actually can net MORE than your taxable income in the military. And I live in a VERY LOW BAH area of the country. (BAH is the non-taxable dollar amount they pay based on ZIP code). I am not rich, but this JAN comes the 3.4% raise, and then in SEP I hit my 8 year mark, for another raise. I won't hit 6 figures until I am a LTC with 18 years TIS, when I am 51.

 

[Lizpop]

i was looking up salaries for a school psychologist (masters only, not a doctorate) and most of the salaries were between $80,000-$90,000! And this is only with a masters! I'm not sure if it's just the geographical location (southern cali) but does anyone know if this is the norm for school psychologists?

In California, I wouldn't say it's the norm, but it is certainly possible. There are some districts with starting pay in the 50 - 60k range, and many that have starting pay in the 80 - 90k range. I work in the SF Bay Area now, and in my 3rd year of working as a school psych, I make $100k for the 9-10 month school year. There are limited opportunities to also work for a district during the summer months, or there's always the option of trying to do private practice during school breaks. As a reference, I make about the same, or (especially when you take into account that I don't work through the entire year) in some cases more than, most of my friends with MBAs. It can be a very stressful job, though.

A major difference that I perceive between the early years of working in clinical psych and working as a school psych, is that, right out of the gate, school psychs are responsible for many management responsibilities, including ensuring that school district personnel are operating within the confines of the many laws governing special education. My husband works in tech and, hearing many of my stories about what I do at work, thinks that an equivalent job in a large private company would make at least twice as much as I do. Of course, different school districts take different approaches to how school psychs function, so my experiences are based on working in a district that utilizes school psychologists for management functions and not just as service providers.

 

[bearclaws]

This thread made me so curious that I finally made an account after a long time of lurking just so I could ask this question.

So taking into consideration the not-so-great salary of Clinical PhDs who go into practice, and how hard it is to even find any sort of job, let alone a well paying one, contrasting that with the pay and apparent ease of finding a job of psychiatric NP's, what's the catch?

I just did a little bit of googling and from what I understand psych NP's get to conduct therapy, assess, diagnose, etc, get paid pretty well for it, and are in demand. As an undergrad who is busting her ass to get into a Clinical Psych program, this is making me question things a little. And no, I'm not in it for the money, I want to conduct therapy and be able to diagnose and treat people, but if you can do that and also go to school for a lot less time and end up getting paid a lot better for it, why aren't more people taking that route instead?

If anyone has any knowledge about psych NP's and what exactly they do, how it differs from clinical psychologists, it would be really great. Thank you!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The therapy training and (psych) differential diagnosis in the typical NP program are lacking.

 

[smalltownpsych]

After licensure, I was looking at a state hospital job for 70k and LA county mental health for 85k. Was offered a community mental health job for 50k and turned it down cold, this was while I was getting paid 38k at my post-doc so it was hard to say no. Ended up taking a job as a clinical director for 80k. Current hospital where I am working was advertising 85k-95k for a licensed psychologist plus student loan repayment through NHSC. I think that 60k is a bit low for a licensed psychologist regardless of local cost of living. If you have to take it, then I would suggest keeping an eye out for something better.

 

[PsychBoxe]

I work with many psychiatric NPs on my internship and I do not see them playing any roles similar to those of a clinical psychologist. Being trained in basic therapy skills (e.g. basics of MI; active listening) in much different than what a psychologist brings to the table. Psychiatric NPs are paid pretty well, but I see the job as completely different than that of a psychologist.

 

[psychrat]

I work with many psychiatric NPs on my internship and I do not see them playing any roles similar to those of a clinical psychologist. Being trained in basic therapy skills (e.g. basics of MI; active listening) in much different than what a psychologist brings to the table. Psychiatric NPs are paid pretty well, but I see the job as completely different than that of a psychologist.

It is SO different than clinical psych. My aunt is a psych NP and had to go through nursing school first and had to make beds, give baths, and other nursing duties before becoming a licensed NP.

 

[PsychBoxe]

I think I was just thrown off at the idea of psychiatric NPs providing similar services as clinical psychologists. I have never heard of that comparison and wonder what work environments create that idea.

 

[Rivi]

This thread made me so curious that I finally made an account after a long time of lurking just so I could ask this question.

So taking into consideration the not-so-great salary of Clinical PhDs who go into practice, and how hard it is to even find any sort of job, let alone a well paying one, contrasting that with the pay and apparent ease of finding a job of psychiatric NP's, what's the catch?

I just did a little bit of googling and from what I understand psych NP's get to conduct therapy, assess, diagnose, etc, get paid pretty well for it, and are in demand. As an undergrad who is busting her ass to get into a Clinical Psych program, this is making me question things a little. And no, I'm not in it for the money, I want to conduct therapy and be able to diagnose and treat people, but if you can do that and also go to school for a lot less time and end up getting paid a lot better for it, why aren't more people taking that route instead?

If anyone has any knowledge about psych NP's and what exactly they do, how it differs from clinical psychologists, it would be really great. Thank you!

The salary and future of psychology threads on this board used to freak me out when I was a first and second year. Now that I am on post-doc and applying for jobs, I realize that there are a decent number of jobs out there that pay well, especially if you are geographically flexible. There are doom and gloom threads on SDN in almost every profession; look at the radiology , pharmacy, and optometry boards. A lot of the salary numbers people quote on here are pretty low compared to what I have seen on the APA's salary survey, the jobs that I have seen, and in speaking with other psychologists. Especially psychologists with side gigs. In regards to salary, the message that I take away from this is that you should know the market and the best places to work, and tailor you training in grad school to fit what is out there.

I have worked with a lot of psychiatrists, social workers, nurse practitioners, and counselors. Clinical psychologists have the best training in psychotherapy, psychodiagnostic assessment, and research in my opinion. Psychiatrists and NP's have the medical training which is valuable, but otherwise, psychologists really have a great number of strengths, even if they are not utilized. Another benefit of clinical psychology that doesn't get discussed is that if you go to a funded program, you also get paid while you go to school and don't have nearly as much debt, if any, while most other professions have a decent amount of debt.

All this said, I still wouldn't recommend taking out 6-figures in debt for a Psy.D.

 

[WisNeuro]

Something to remember with the VA pay scale, there is always a locality adjustment up. After postdoc I was GS 13, and with the locality adjustment, my starting is is 87k. After 1 year and COLA, next year I get a 4k raise.

 

[bearclaws]

Thanks for all the answers! When I was reading about psych NP's online, it said something along the lines of that they can conduct therapy with patients, so that's where I got that from. Thank you for the clarification, it definitely makes me feel better when thinking about my choice to do clinical psych

 

[smalltownpsych]

The pysch NPs that I have worked with appear to have a layman's understanding of psychotherapy and very limited diagnostic abilities. My opinion is that we need to become more adept at articulating our skill set and how it is effective from both a treatment and cost/benefit analysis. Part of psychotherapy training is understanding the complex interplay between cognitive, interpersonal, environmental, emotional, social, neurological, and biological determinants of behavior. We need to challenge the notion of X drug for Y symptom as the solution to mental health as the research is clear that it is a bit more complex than that.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Oh and don't forget the importance of research and scientific methodology and critical thinking skills and how these play a role in all that we do including psychotherapy, diagnosis, teaching, consultation, and assessment. The more I think about what we bring to the table, the more I think we should get paid!

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

meh. nvm.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

meh. nvm.

Okay, I deleted my prior post because I don’t want to be too harsh. Let’s just say the idea that psychologists are universally well-trained, masters of research, methodology, therapy, assessment, critical thinking, etc., just doesn’t hold true. Not for the for-profit students, who are increasingly becoming the majority of practicing clinical psychologists. There are clinical psychology doctoral students at my site who go to universities that do not provide them library access to research journals/databases (psycinfo, pubmed, etc.)… let that one sink in. These are APA accredited programs.

Here is the county salary info for a major metropolitan area for anyone who wants a breakdown. The lower salary is the entry wage and the upper salary is after 5-10 years, I believe:

Clinical Psychologist - 77-97k

Psychiatric NPs: 110-130k

Psych RN I: 90-109k

If you want to make a good wage, have flexibility, and many opportunities - psych NP is a great way to go. At my site (county mental health), the psychiatrists and psych NPs get 45 minutes per patient. More time is available if necessary, though that can sometimes cause a pinch in the scheduling. Not bad at all.

 

[WisNeuro]

That program is an outlier, btw. It's not something I've ever heard of in the places I've been affiliated with and I have never had a colleague report that. If students brought it up with an accreditation team, it would likely impact their ability to retain maximum years.

 

[bostongal109]

This thread is such a bummer.

 

[edieb]

Another thing I want to add is that in most cases nobody even cares how good of a diagnostician you are because whether someone has GAD versus PTSD or bipolar II verus cyclothymia has no real treatment implications beyond that of delivering evidence-based psychotherapy. As someone who made the transition from clinical to prescribing psychologist, I can really see how irrelevant a lot of our skill set us to the healthcare world is in general. The extreme majority of don't care about the exact diagnosis because it doesn't change their treatment. For instance, whether someone has MDD Moderate or MDD Mild or Dysthymia, they are still getting the same medication. If you doubt this, ask most people praciticing in the field outside psychology.

I saw one of my old posts while I was in grad schoo surface on this board the other day. In that post I was asking the difference between the agnosias and, before I realized that post was by me, I giggled and said, that person has no idea what real world health care delivery ls like

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Another thing I want to add is that in most cases nobody even cares how good of a diagnostician you are because whether someone has GAD versus PTSD or bipolar II verus cyclothymia has no real treatment implications beyond that of delivering evidence-based psychotherapy. As someone who made the transition from clinical to prescribing psychologist, I can really see how irrelevant a lot of our skill set us to the healthcare world is in general. The extreme majority of don't care about the exact diagnosis because it doesn't change their treatment. For instance, whether someone has MDD Moderate or MDD Mild or Dysthymia, they are still getting the same medication. If you doubt this, ask most people praciticing in the field outside psychology.

I saw one of my old posts while I was in grad schoo surface on this board the other day. In that post I was asking the difference between the agnosias and, before I realized that post was by me, I giggled and said, that person has no idea what real world health care delivery ls like

My take on this is that it could substantially vary based on where one works. In my clinic/hospital, providers highly value diagnostic accuracy and its implications on case formulation and treatment. This is in part because they're continually trying to reduce meds and increase participation in psychotherapy, although that varies a bit by provider.

There are certainly some more academically-oriented diagnostic thought exercises that we do (e.g., the apperceptive vs. associative agnosia differentiation from that previous thread, unless one is trying to perhaps tie it to known existing neuropathology vs. onset of something new), and there are others that are potentially very useful. By downplaying the importance of diagnosis, we're selling ourselves short. It may not seem important to some other providers, but if we feel it is (and can support that statement), then we should tell them as much.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Another thing I want to add is that in most cases nobody even cares how good of a diagnostician you are because whether someone has GAD versus PTSD or bipolar II verus cyclothymia has no real treatment implications beyond that of delivering evidence-based psychotherapy. As someone who made the transition from clinical to prescribing psychologist, I can really see how irrelevant a lot of our skill set us to the healthcare world is in general. The extreme majority of don't care about the exact diagnosis because it doesn't change their treatment. For instance, whether someone has MDD Moderate or MDD Mild or Dysthymia, they are still getting the same medication. If you doubt this, ask most people praciticing in the field outside psychology.

I saw one of my old posts while I was in grad schoo surface on this board the other day. In that post I was asking the difference between the agnosias and, before I realized that post was by me, I giggled and said, that person has no idea what real world health care delivery ls like

I agree with this to a point. At an inpatient facility that I was at for a practicum, I used to joke that the psychiatrists only needed three diagnoses: depression, mania, or psychosis and half the time the psychiatrists still got it wrong. They really were that bad. I realize that is an oversimplification but it does jibe with your point. That is why I don't like doing much diagnostic assessment and much prefer educational assessments where the information has much more practical application and thus benefit.

The biomedical model is never going to have all the answers so I don't worry too much about that. The human brain is an adaptive organ that functions in an interpersonal environment. We are the leaders in that area and we need to keep moving forward with that. Some disorders are more anatomical and structural in nature some less so. There is plenty of research to be done in these areas and psychologists just need to continue to promote ourselves as the experts in both the research and application of these ideas. I'm not worried that I won't be able to sell our strong skill set to patients and/or employers over and above MA providers.

 

[smalltownpsych]

This thread is such a bummer.

As a licensed masters level clinician, it's pretty reasonable to make 55-65k in my field.So it really makes me wonder if obtaining a doctorate is worth it financially..... even fully funded, that loss of salary for 5-7 years for an extra...10-20k? to my salary, if I'm lucky?

Any advice?

You appear to be quoting high end for MA level and lower end for doctoral. Nevertheless, if you don't have a passion to be a psychologist, then you are correct it is not worth the extra schooling.

 

[Sanman]

Another thing I want to add is that in most cases nobody even cares how good of a diagnostician you are because whether someone has GAD versus PTSD or bipolar II verus cyclothymia has no real treatment implications beyond that of delivering evidence-based psychotherapy. As someone who made the transition from clinical to prescribing psychologist, I can really see how irrelevant a lot of our skill set us to the healthcare world is in general. The extreme majority of don't care about the exact diagnosis because it doesn't change their treatment. For instance, whether someone has MDD Moderate or MDD Mild or Dysthymia, they are still getting the same medication. If you doubt this, ask most people praciticing in the field outside psychology.

I saw one of my old posts while I was in grad schoo surface on this board the other day. In that post I was asking the difference between the agnosias and, before I realized that post was by me, I giggled and said, that person has no idea what real world health care delivery ls like

I agree with that to a certain extent and don't really believe in putting the effort for an exact diagnosis when it will not impact care or tx. This goes for mood and cognitive impairment in certain circumstances (dx of dementia vs properly dxing the subtype). The other half of that is that the mediocre dx pays the the same as a great dx most of the time and if I can get more mediocre dx done in a day and it does not impact care, then good for me. The bottom line ends up being that the insurance based healthcare system we follow does not care. If you think they do, try getting authorization for multiple units of 96118.

 

[Sanman]

This thread is such a bummer.

As a licensed masters level clinician, it's pretty reasonable to make 55-65k in my field.So it really makes me wonder if obtaining a doctorate is worth it financially..... even fully funded, that loss of salary for 5-7 years for an extra...10-20k? to my salary, if I'm lucky?

Any advice?

It does not always make economic sense. It also depends on what you want to do. I know people that started (licensed) at salaries ranging from 40k-90k. I tailored my career goals to start on the higher end of that spectrum.

Realistically, an MA will net you 50-60k in the mental health fields and a doctorate 80-90k. Whether that is worth it to you is a personal decision.

 

[WisNeuro]

Indeed, if all that matters is the money, I'd stay away from the field in general. I could easily have done something to garner a much higher wage. But, I like what I do, have a ton of flexibility, and still make a pretty good living. You need to figure out your priorities and your desires. It's not as easy as "this makes more than that" because "this" works in a different setting and in a different way with patients than "that."

 

[Sanman]

Indeed, if all that matters is the money, I'd stay away from the field in general. I could easily have done something to garner a much higher wage. But, I like what I do, have a ton of flexibility, and still make a pretty good living. You need to figure out your priorities and your desires. It's not as easy as "this makes more than that" because "this" works in a different setting and in a different way with patients than "that."

Yes and no. In neuropsych, absolutely it is different. In outpt eclectic psychotherapy not so much.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Differential diagnosis makes a huge difference when it comes to proper management of a case. Throwing a cocktail of Seroquel, Depakote, Ativan, etc. at a person may "reduce" behavioral problems, but not address the underlying problems. Knowing if it is BPD v. Bipolar v. ADHD v. Substance induced mania, etc.

 

[edieb]

Differential diagnosis makes a huge difference when it comes to proper management of a case. Throwing a cocktail of Seroquel, Depakote, Ativan, etc. at a person may "reduce" behavioral problems, but not address the underlying problems,

It depends what "proper diagnosis" is. If you are differentiating a bipolar spectrum disorder verus borderline PD, then, yes, you need a proper diagnosis. However, a bachelor's level person who has a little motivation can correctly ascertain which is which. However, if you are differentiating between bipolar I vs. bipolar II vs cyclothymia vs schizoaffective, bipolar type then the medication management is about the same for each.