Realistic Take on Chances: Even with post-bacc GPA is very low

[darwinmed]

I'm looking for some advice here. I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I was a wayward child in my undergrad years. I wasn't a partier at all and I did some pretty amazing things for a 20-year-old (started a non-profit, etc., etc.) but I wasn't focusing on my academics. Unfortunately, I decided to major in biology so I have a ton of BCPM credits, and since I was spending all of my time on this non-profit and other pursuits, I did not spend time on my classes and my GPA is rock bottom.

Being a doctor has always been in the back of my mind but because of the mistakes I made as an undergrad I just figured that I had missed my chance and I would have to settle for another career. I finally decided that being a doctor is the career for me, and that I wouldn't let mistakes I made when I was 20 hold me back for the rest of my life.

To flesh out the story, I had a 4.0 in high school (with 9 APs and 5 college classes, all As in those), went to a top-10 undergrad school (Ivy/MIT/Stanford/Duke, but trying to remain anonymous here) where I majored in Biology but graduated with a 2.8 cumGPA and 2.1 BCPM GPA. Pretty much a bright young student with the world ahead of me, squandered in college by lack of focus.

I just did the math, and even if I take 12 more 4-credit science classes and get a 4.0, my science GPA will only rise to a 2.8. If I take 24 more classes, it will only rise to a 3.2. Twenty-four post-bacc classes is really pushing the limit, it seems to me, and even then my GPA is nowhere near competitive. Plus, I likely won't get a 4.0 the entire time.

I have already taken several courses to start this journey just to be sure I actually can handle the academics, to confirm that my problem in my undergrad years was indeed lack of focus and not lack of capability, and I have received all As so far. So I feel comfortable saying that I am capable of the post-bacc and med school course load, but I am feeling rather discouraged about my chances even with a long, strong post-bacc.

I did go to an advisor at my current school and she essentially told me to give it up, that it was never going to happen. I've also read on these boards that advisors aren't necessarily geared towards non-trad paths, and that people here can sometimes give better advice than these advisors.

Is there any chance at all that a med school (I'm speaking of both MD schools and DO schools with grade replacement) would accept me with such a poor GPA, even if three years of post-bacc had been stellar? Or should I just give that thought up and wait for my 10 years and move to Texas? Although I regret the actions I took when I was 20, I understand that actions do have consequences and I'm trying to get a feel for how they may realistically play out. I'd like to have hope, but I'd also like to be pragmatic.

Thank you in advance for any advice you may give.

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[Chip N Sawbones]

Start retaking classes and go to a DO school. The magic of DO grade replacement means that you can build up your GPA to competitive levels in a year or two. When you do retakes, make sure the new class is the same level or higher and the same number of credits or higher. You can't replace a 300 level, 4 credit class with a 200 level class or a 3 credit class. Besides the ability to replace grades, DO schools are generally more willing to overlook past academic performance if you can show them good grades in a full schedule of recent coursework. If you can erase enough bad grades to bring your GPA up to a 3.3 or so, you'll be a reasonably competitive candidate for DO schools.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I wouldn't bother with MD school at this point. You're too far behind. Have you done the math for grade replacement at a DO school? This should be much quicker. Also consider other career options such as podiatry, optometry, PT, etc.

 

[darwinmed]

I appreciate the responses. So MD is really out of the picture for me? I was hoping to go the MD route as it seems more up my alley, to the point where I would consider waiting for 10 years post-graduation and moving to Texas to do that. Absolutely nothing against DO schools -- they just seem to want a very specific commitment to osteopathic medicine that I don't necessarily have.

My plan was to sort of start from scratch and complete all pre-reqs (plus other additional upper-levels) in a quite comprehensive post-bacc in about three to for years, so I wouldn't be so much different than a 21-year-old traditional applicant in terms of preparation (four years of pre-medical work with a good GPA). I guess I had hoped that if I did this, adcoms would see that I have equal potential and preparation as the traditional applicant.

If it matters, I do work in biomedical research and may have a few publications to my name in a few years. I already volunteer as an EMT, and I do think I can put together an all-around competitive package, if the first for years of utter disaster are overlooked! Which, of course, they won't be. Sigh.

Thanks again for the advice. If anybody else has other ideas, please keep them coming!

 

[TriagePreMed]

Well, if you really want an MD, get an MD then. Do the 24 classes (96 units) to get the 3.2, get a high MCAT and hope for the best. If not, you can do an SMP and apply once more. You can go to the Caribbean if all that fails. You don't need to feel like you should settle for a DO degree, but because you expressed interest, I mentioned this as the safest, most realistic route.

If you want my honest opinion, pursuing the MD at this point would be a big mistake, both economically and in terms of time, but hey, you only live once and you should be happy with what you do with that life.

 

[NTF]

Absolutely nothing against DO schools -- they just seem to want a very specific commitment to osteopathic medicine that I don't necessarily have.

This isn't meant to convince you one way or the other, but you need not have a specific commitment to osteopathic medicine for the DO route. It's a legitimate path to a career in medicine with all the rights and privileges of a physician. If that's really your goal then, as others have said, it's a lot more efficient and practical path given your starting point. While some residency programs have institutional biases against DO's it won't lock you out of any specific specialty and those biases largely become irrelevant once you finish residency or are applying to fellowships. You'd be giving up a lot years of income and experience as an attending just to have two different letters attached to your name that matter very little in the long run.

But I agree with TPM, if it matters that much to you go for it. Just spend some time really thinking about what you're giving up to go the MD route.

 

[yossarian444]

Having a low GPA doesn't automatically exclude you from MD schools. Have you considered getting a two-year graduate degree? If you got straight A's for 24 classes, whether that be a grad degree or not, that'd go a long way - adcoms wouldn't just look at your average. This is especially true if you absolutely destroy the MCAT.

Use these well-referenced tables to guide your emperic probability decisions:

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

 

[Chuchunezumis]

Having a low GPA doesn't automatically exclude you from MD schools. Have you considered getting a two-year graduate degree? If you got straight A's for 24 classes, whether that be a grad degree or not, that'd go a long way - adcoms wouldn't just look at your average. This is especially true if you absolutely destroy the MCAT.

Use these well-referenced tables to guide your emperic probability decisions:

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

I think in general people way overestimate a random posters ability to "absolutely destroy the MCAT." There are some people who work very hard and can't break 25, much less 30. It's a REALLY big assumption to develop any plan that banks on scoring 35+.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

I appreciate the responses. So MD is really out of the picture for me? I was hoping to go the MD route as it seems more up my alley, to the point where I would consider waiting for 10 years post-graduation and moving to Texas to do that. Absolutely nothing against DO schools -- they just seem to want a very specific commitment to osteopathic medicine that I don't necessarily have.

My plan was to sort of start from scratch and complete all pre-reqs (plus other additional upper-levels) in a quite comprehensive post-bacc in about three to for years, so I wouldn't be so much different than a 21-year-old traditional applicant in terms of preparation (four years of pre-medical work with a good GPA). I guess I had hoped that if I did this, adcoms would see that I have equal potential and preparation as the traditional applicant.

If it matters, I do work in biomedical research and may have a few publications to my name in a few years. I already volunteer as an EMT, and I do think I can put together an all-around competitive package, if the first for years of utter disaster are overlooked! Which, of course, they won't be. Sigh.

Thanks again for the advice. If anybody else has other ideas, please keep them coming!

Forget MD. It would take years of additional work before your GPA was good enough to give you a realistic chance of success. That means you would be missing out on years of a physician's salary and the chance to work as a doctor. In medical school the difference between MD and DO is basically just one class that you probably will never use in real life because nobody's figured out a good way to bill patients for it. Once you're in residency and beyond, your degree name will matter even less. Unless you're absolutely dead set on getting into a competitive specialty, DO is definitely going to be a better, faster and cheaper option for you.

If you end up getting a freakishly high MCAT, then I'd say go ahead and apply to both MD and DO schools. However, as Chuchunezumis pointed out, you can never, ever count on getting a feakishly high MCAT unless you actually took the test and received the score. A 35 puts you in the top 2% or so of all med school applicants. You basically have to be the smartest student in your organic chemistry class to get that score.

 

[yossarian444]

I think in general people way overestimate a random posters ability to "absolutely destroy the MCAT." There are some people who work very hard and can't break 25, much less 30. It's a REALLY big assumption to develop any plan that banks on scoring 35+.

Yes, very true. Though the OP does seem to espouse an all-or-nothing attitude as demonstrated by his disdain for DO and his willingness in waiting ten years and moving to Texas (not sure how 10yr/TX helps the situation...but it does seem extreme...there must be something about Texas I don't understand...which often seems the case when it comes to that mysterious state).

Things he does have going for him in terms of a possible killer MCAT score:
- Went to an Ivy-equivalent so he's familiar with extreme academic competition and knows what he's up against.
- Implies he received all A's in his post-bac work thus far with relative ease
- Confidence that he's smart
- Good spelling

Hmm..I'm reaching. Ok, you're right Chuchunezumis, my advice is probably a bit optimistic. But, maybe OP is a gambler? I mean, somebody has to get a 35+...might as well be OP, eh?

OP - either plan on a long, 3-yr graduate degree to bump up that GPA or go DO via grade replacement. Every year there are ellite DO matches in every specialty - might as well be you....ya just gotta honor everything and destroy the USMLE - 250+ - no problem, just try hard, simple, you'll be fine.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Yes, very true. Though the OP does seem to espouse an all-or-nothing attitude as demonstrated by his disdain for DO and his willingness in waiting ten years and moving to Texas (not sure how 10yr/TX helps the situation...but it does seem extreme...there must be something about Texas I don't understand...which often seems the case when it comes to that mysterious state).

Texas has a program in which you can essentially erase all coursework older than ten years. Do a search for "Texas Fresh Start Program."

Hmm..I'm reaching. Ok, you're right Chuchunezumis, my advice is probably a bit optimistic. But, maybe OP is a gambler? I mean, somebody has to get a 35+...might as well be OP, eh?

The same words are used by millions of suckers who buy lottery tickets every year, despite an average return on investment that is worse than the worst games in Vegas. Maybe the OP will get a 35, but like winning the lottery, it just isn't something he can base his plans on. Plan on DO, go MD if the opportunity should present itself.

 

[darwinmed]

Appreciate all the responses again. It sounds like MD may be a possibility but would take heaps of time and effort, and that DO may be faster, more efficient path to medicine for me.

Just want to clear up that I absolutely don't have any disdain for DO schools as one poster suggested -- it was just my impression that, like I said, they wanted to see a specific commitment to osteopathic medicine that I don't particularly have, as evidenced by specific DO shadowing and DO LOR requirements among other indicators. I've heard of the importance of the "Why DO rather than MD?" question at interviews, and I don't have a good answer for that (I'm not sure they want to hear that my GPA wasn't good enough to go MD so DO it was!). This is the extent of my experience with, well, the DO concept, which is why I was focusing on MD.

Oh, and I was never the one saying I was going to get 35+ on the MCATs! I think one poster just mentioned that I may have a chance at some MD somewhere if I destroy the MCAT (nobody saying that I would).

In any case, the first step is to rock this post-bacc, so that will be the plan going forward. One foot in front of the other. I appreciate everyone's time in responding to what is a pretty individual question. As always, if there are any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

 

[mspeedwagon]

Here is my advice to you. Plan on taking the classes to raise your your overall and science GPA to above 3.0 (24 credits). You need to develop good study skills and you need a decent MCAT. Plan on spending 2 years doing this (I have been pre-me since 2009 and am studying for the MCAT now, but I don't recommend taking so long since you forget things and the MCAT becomes more challenging that it should be). Then apply to both MD and DO. Learn about osteopathic medicine and learn what it has to offer to you and you to it (even if you don't have much interest in OMT, DO schools give you a chance at becoming a doctor; philosophy aside).

This is a marathon and not a sprint. I hate the physician salary argument (if you don't hurry up now you'll loose income at the end - it's a stupid argument, b/c hurrying and doing things poorly will likely turn out much worse). Easy for me to say since I have a reasonable high income, but believe me when I say take your time and do this right. Read the re-applicant forum. You don't want that to be you.

AND NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE. I hate when people tell say MD is not possible. There have been people with 0.55 GPAs that have been homeless that made it to an MD school. Why not you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HtTS97PO9A

 

[Chuchunezumis]

Appreciate all the responses again. It sounds like MD may be a possibility but would take heaps of time and effort, and that DO may be faster, more efficient path to medicine for me.

Just want to clear up that I absolutely don't have any disdain for DO schools as one poster suggested -- it was just my impression that, like I said, they wanted to see a specific commitment to osteopathic medicine that I don't particularly have, as evidenced by specific DO shadowing and DO LOR requirements among other indicators. I've heard of the importance of the "Why DO rather than MD?" question at interviews, and I don't have a good answer for that (I'm not sure they want to hear that my GPA wasn't good enough to go MD so DO it was!). This is the extent of my experience with, well, the DO concept, which is why I was focusing on MD.

Oh, and I was never the one saying I was going to get 35+ on the MCATs! I think one poster just mentioned that I may have a chance at some MD somewhere if I destroy the MCAT (nobody saying that I would).

In any case, the first step is to rock this post-bacc, so that will be the plan going forward. One foot in front of the other. I appreciate everyone's time in responding to what is a pretty individual question. As always, if there are any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

No one was suggesting you said you'd get a 35+, but that's probably what it would take to have a reasonable chance at MD anytime soon (and I'm using the word soon loosely).

I think your best bet it to learn about DO programs, consider them, and then if you do exceptionally well on the MCATs you can apply to DO + MD. But as others have said, MD is very unlikely unless you are exceptionally brilliant.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Here is my advice to you. Plan on taking the classes to raise your your overall and science GPA to above 3.0 (24 credits). You need to develop good study skills and you need a decent MCAT. Plan on spending 2 years doing this (I have been pre-me since 2009 and am studying for the MCAT now, but I don't recommend taking so long since you forget things and the MCAT becomes more challenging that it should be). Then apply to both MD and DO. Learn about osteopathic medicine and learn what it has to offer to you and you to it (even if you don't have much interest in OMT, DO schools give you a chance at becoming a doctor; philosophy aside).

This is a marathon and not a sprint. I hate the physician salary argument (if you don't hurry up now you'll loose income at the end - it's a stupid argument, b/c hurrying and doing things poorly will likely turn out much worse). Easy for me to say since I have a reasonable high income, but believe me when I say take your time and do this right. Read the re-applicant forum. You don't want that to be you.

AND NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE. I hate when people tell say MD is not possible. There have been people with 0.55 GPAs that have been homeless that made it to an MD school. Why not you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HtTS97PO9A

He meant 24 four unit classes, not 24 units.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Good catch. Read too fast. I didn't see the OPs age or year of graduation, but if the OP is close to the 10 year mark, I'd just wait and move to Texas. That would be the easiest route (to an MD) at this point.

He meant 24 four unit classes, not 24 units.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Appreciate all the responses again. It sounds like MD may be a possibility but would take heaps of time and effort, and that DO may be faster, more efficient path to medicine for me.

Just want to clear up that I absolutely don't have any disdain for DO schools as one poster suggested -- it was just my impression that, like I said, they wanted to see a specific commitment to osteopathic medicine that I don't particularly have, as evidenced by specific DO shadowing and DO LOR requirements among other indicators. I've heard of the importance of the "Why DO rather than MD?" question at interviews, and I don't have a good answer for that (I'm not sure they want to hear that my GPA wasn't good enough to go MD so DO it was!). This is the extent of my experience with, well, the DO concept, which is why I was focusing on MD.

Don't worry about the DO shadowing and LOR requirement. They're easy. To supplement some MD shadowing time I already had, I spent four hours shadowing a DO so I could get a LOR. He knew exactly why I was there, and he wrote a very short LOR for me, probably saying something like "Chip didn't drool on himself or hurt any patients when he shadowed me, so as far as I can tell he'll make a good doctor." The reason why you want to be a DO doesn't have to be a big deal either. For the secondary essays on that question, I wrote a paragraph saying that I found the osteopathic philosophies of treating the whole patient and helping the body to heal itself to be intriguing, and something I hoped to explore in medical school. I never mentioned OMM, which is the most significant difference between MD and DO in practice. The result was that I got six interview invites from nine DO applications. I went on three interviews and got two acceptances and a waitlist from them, and all without a serious interest in osteopathic medicine.

 

[Goro]

What you need to do is get into an SMP that is given by a med school, like, say, PCOM, Drexel or BU. There are plenty of them out there.

They're a "back door" appraoch to medical school because they let you show the AdComs that you can handle a medical school curriculum, and with the faculty you're a known quantity.

Also, keep in mind that with AACOMAS grade replacement policy, retaking your F/D/C courses can do wonders for your GPA.

I did go to an advisor at my current school and she essentially told me to give it up, that it was never going to happen. I've also read on these boards that advisors aren't necessarily geared towards non-trad paths, and that people here can sometimes give better advice than these advisors.

Is there any chance at all that a med school (I'm speaking of both MD schools and DO schools with grade replacement) would accept me with such a poor GPA, even if three years of post-bacc had been stellar? Or should I just give that thought up and wait for my 10 years and move to Texas? Although I regret the actions I took when I was 20, I understand that actions do have consequences and I'm trying to get a feel for how they may realistically play out. I'd like to have hope, but I'd also like to be pragmatic.

 

[darwinmed]

Just seeing this response now. Thanks very much for your advice, Goro. A SMP may well be in my future. Currently I'm just trying to put one foot in front of the other and focus on continuing a successful post-bacc.