Reflections/thoughts on the admissions game

[MCAT guy]

Nick elevating that SDN persona to legendary.

SDN superstar.

I'm gonna be a great big bright shining star.

---

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[BostonFan]

Great post man. It needs to be stickied. SDN mods/gods, note it!

 

[90minIPA]

If I were strictly gunning for maximum amount of acceptances - or if I really wanted to maximize my chance of getting into the Ivies - I would've played the bull**** and kiss-ass games a little more. I think those schools were turned off by my candor regarding not wanting to do research in the long-term. I also would've been more proactive about sending updates, letters of interest/intent, etc. to maximize my chances there.

+1000000

If you're no-frills about the admissions proccess and prefer to not "lay it on thick," it's tough to break into the very upper crust without an ivy undergrad pedigree. I can definitely empathize with you here.

At the end of the day, I'm happy to have landed where I did without resorting to the dog and pony show, though.

Also, very nice post and congrats!

 

[BuffNerd]

Thank you sir!!

 

[drpep]

could you elaborate on the "be genuine" part?

i was told by a school (that you were accepted to) that 2/3 interviewers told me they didn't think i was genuine.

i'm not sure what this means and would love more information on it.

i'm happy with how things turned out, but that doesn't mean i don't think i can improve!

 

[Blue Ocean]

I've heard stories about people with 4.0 and 30+ MCAT who failed med school. How CAN that possible if it's true?? I thought med school was VERY hard to fail..

 

[SteveJMarist]

could you elaborate on the "be genuine" part?

i was told by a school (that you were accepted to) that 2/3 interviewers told me they didn't think i was genuine.

i'm not sure what this means and would love more information on it.

i'm happy with how things turned out, but that doesn't mean i don't think i can improve!

Simple- they thought you were telling them bullsh*t. So two possible things:

1) You were bsing. Stop that.

or

2) You weren't. I think this would be your nerves coming off as you being a faker. You need to practice on just relaxing, being yourself, and being confident in an interview setting.

While I have only average med school stats, I consider myself to be a pretty knowledgeable interviewer.

 

[BMEJake]

This is amazing! Thanks so much!

 

[drpep]

Simple- they thought you were telling them bullsh*t. So two possible things:

1) You were bsing. Stop that.

or

2) You weren't. I think this would be your nerves coming off as you being a faker. You need to practice on just relaxing, being yourself, and being confident in an interview setting.

While I have only average med school stats, I consider myself to be a pretty knowledgeable interviewer.

well it definitely wasn't 1, since i was telling the truth.

i wanted to question the school more but we were running out of time so i couldn't. would you think that if i didn't seem passionate about my activities, that would give them this impression?

also, when you interview, they always ask you about one of your activities.

what do you do then? do you tell them about it? wasn't this already explained on your amcas? well how do you transition from them saying "tell me more about your trip to africa" to not telling them the basic information thats already on your amcas while still remaining with time?

i think that was a problem of mine. they told me to tell them more about the activities and i spent most of the time telling them things i had already talked about on my amcas, but that was just because i didn't know how to get into more detail on other things without mentioning the basics again. i really could have gotten into more stories about why i started doing the things i did and some touching moments i had with them, but i spent too much time regurgitating information that was already there.

can I ask them if they have seen my AMCAS already? or if they know the basics?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

+1000000

If you're no-frills about the admissions proccess and prefer to not "lay it on thick," it's tough to break into the very upper crust without an ivy undergrad pedigree. I can definitely empathize with you here.

At the end of the day, I'm happy to have landed where I did without resorting to the dog and pony show, though.

Also, very nice post and congrats!

I disagree.

Drpep, didn't you already have a whole thread on your issues

 

[phnerd1105]

Thanks Nick! This was extremely helpful. Good luck in med school, you chose the right city

 

[gettheleadout]

Saved for future reference.

Bravo and thank you, Nick.

 

[Primrose]

Thank you so much for the information. Best of luck in med school.

Ps. please change the animated profile pic...it's soo distracting.

 

[Onres]

I have very minimal experience with being on a waitlist because I chose not to play the waitlist game, but I have been following the threads I was waitlisted at to see what people are doing and how things are going. At the Ivies, it seems like spamming the admissions office with letters of intent, updates, etc. is the best way to go. This strategy was also confirmed by my pre-health advisor; his explanation was that they want to offer as few acceptances as possible, so they will accept people that appear to be the most interested first. I don’t possibly understand how people can send in 3-4 update letters with meaningful updates over the course of a cycle, but they do, and it seems those are the people who get in. So if you’re waitlisted at one of these schools, get your pen and paper (or computer) ready and start drafting those letters. It’s a game, and if you want to win you have to play it – hard.

I would agree with this. I was wait-listed at Dartmouth, and I sent two update letters, and I sent in an additional LOR. Granted Dartmouth is very receptive to things like this. I also spoke to the director before sending each of the letters and expressed my interest directly to him. As NickNaylor said, the Director told me they don't want to call people who they don't think is interested, so they do tend to call the waitlisters who send letters/updates. I was accepted on May 16th, go figures lol.

 

[FIREitUP]

Great post man. It needs to be stickied. SDN mods/gods, note it!

dude, where's rondo?

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Having read the entire thing, I'd like to point out that you are extremely incorrect about one detail near the end:

Cats ALWAYS care.

 

[JubJub603]

Great post Nick. I've been wanting to do something like this for some while but just haven't taken the time. I hope you don't mind if I go through and emphasize and piggy back on some of the parts I find most important.

Pre-Submission
Reread, reread, and reread some more your AMCAS application. Make sure all of the information is entered correctly and check for spelling and grammar mistakes multiple times. I got into a habit of reading my entire application at the end of every day I worked on it; I probably read my application in its entirety 10+ times before I submitted it. In addition to minimizing writing mistakes, this will also make you very familiar with what you wrote in your application, which is important for interviews.

Very important for interviews. You should know your application front and back and this is the best way to do it. Also, if you can read your application three times in a row and nod "yeah, that's what I want to say, nothing more, nothing less," you know you're ready to submit.

Don't rush any part of the application. Contrary to most SDN advice, you don't need to submit the application on June 1st or… gasp… June 2nd. While the time to get verified does get much longer pretty quickly, you probably won't be receiving any secondaries until mid-to-late July anyway (unless AMCAS and schools change how they do things significantly). Don't compromise the integrity of your application for the sake of submitting on the first day possible.

A better essay will improve your chances of getting an interview MUCH more than submitting a few days (or even weeks) earlier.

Make sure you fully explain your activities on your application. Unless it's obvious what you did (e.g., you don't necessarily need to explain what you did when you shadowed), the adcom may or may not know what you did even though it might be patently obvious to you. Remember that the people reading your application have no idea who you are; you have to make sure you review your application with that mindset (the only things they're going to know about you are what you disclose in your application). Everything from your personal statement to your activity descriptions should speak to your character and your motivation to become a physician.

Seriously, this. Adcoms wont care about your experiences unless you can somehow explain why they a) improved your character or b)directly or somehow relevantly relate to medicine. Ideally, they should do both.

Be intentional about the schools you choose to apply to.

Can't be emphasized enough. I wasted so much money applying to schools simply because I met their numbers. Actually go through each school carefully that you're considering.

This is what I did, and I think it left me with a good list of schools:

-get the MSAR
-flag schools at which your numbers are competitive (i.e., your numbers are within the second half of the shaded bar or above)
-flag a couple of reach schools if you want to go that route
-flag a couple of schools you would consider "safeties"
-eliminate any schools that aren't OOS-friendly if you're OOS
-eliminate any schools in locations that you absolutely don't want to be at
-look at school websites if you need to cut your list down further; I'd recommend looking at information on dual-degree programs (if applicable), the curriculum, and any unique programs/opportunities they might have for their students

One thing I would add to this is I would take a look at the secondary essays posted here on SDN. These essays don't change often. The way the questions are framed and worded also give you a good sense of what kind of students the school is looking for. Also, I wouldn't necessarily eliminate non-friendly OOS schools---you just better have a good reason (and be able to communicate that to the school) for wanting to go there.

Get ready for a long year.

Seriously. Get ready. Schools are only going more waitlist heavy as time goes on and, odds are, you will be playing the waitlist game.

I think this is probably the most important piece of advice I can give: be humble. Don't go into this process with any expectations.

Not only because you shouldn't, but because your expectations will also change GREATLY over the application cycle.

Secondaries
FOR SECONDARIES THAT CONTAIN ESSAYS, MAKE SURE YOU TREAT THEM SERIOUSLY. A lot of people discount secondaries, and while that might be fine at some schools that simply require a rehash of your AMCAS, be particularly careful about schools that ask some form of the question, "why us?" IMO this question is extremely important, and a well-crafted answer might very well be the difference between getting an interview and not getting an interview. It's fine to copy and paste essays between different schools, but MAKE SURE YOUR ESSAY DIRECTLY ANSWERS THE PROMPT. Don't try and shortcut the essay by using an essay that tangentially addresses the question. I was never able to recycle essays without any sort of editing. If nothing else, different length requirements will cause you to cut parts of your essays out.

For many schools I'd say secondaries are if not as, but even more important than the primary. Like Nick said, the "why us" variations of questions are CRITICAL. Do some heavy research on the school and what they look for. Peruse their website and use the same language they do to describe their goals. Find out what kind of programs they have that you'd be interested in and mention them by name. Draw parallels to their strengths and your own. Some schools make this easy with very fleshedout and indepth websites. Some don't. For the ones that don't, do some google sleuthing or ask around here.

Be prompt with your secondaries, but like what was said with your AMCAS app, don't sacrifice quality for a quick turnaround. ... With schools that simply require confirmation of demographic information and/or a payment, however, you should get that returned ASAP (e.g., Harvard, Mayo, etc.).

One really important thing I would add here is that if you are applying to a large number of schools, I would DEFINITELY scout out each school's secondary and start working on drafts for them ASAP (ie: as soon as you're finished with AMCAS). I remember doing nothing in the couple weeks between when I submitted my primary and waited for secondaries, and payed for big time when they started rolling in quick in July. At any one time I'd have 5-15 secondaries stacked in my inbox, not getting completed, simply because I was overwhelmed. Use that time after you submit AMCAS to get all your horses lined up.

Be nice to the admissions staff when you're calling them and asking them about the status of your application. In fact, I wouldn't even call about the status of your application before you've been invited to interview.

I'd say its okay to email about your status as it heads into the more wintery months. I wouldn't call though.

Interviews
...make sure you book your date (if the school allows you to choose dates) ASAP, especially at rolling schools. Those dates will fill up quickly early on in the cycle. If you're still in school, you're going to HAVE to miss class. Class, IMO, isn't an excuse for choosing a later interview date over an earlier one.

Guys, make sure you have a decent suit. Buy one if you need to. Don't wear a suit that doesn't fit you well or isn't flattering. I'd recommend taking a look at the interview clothing thread for a whole bunch of pictures and commentary. While a suit won't get you accepted or rejected, you need to look PROFESSIONAL.

I would add to this by saying that you should also make sure you're comfortable. The best suit in the world wont make up for a lack of self confidence and carrying yourself well. Dress in something that makes you feel like yourself; if you're not used to wearing a suit, try wearing it out a bit before you interview to get used to it.

One thing that I didn't do but wish that I did was reread my application, especially secondaries, before each interview. Your overall application – of which your interview is a part – should tell a story, and rereading what you wrote in your applications can help keep that story cohesive.

Consistency is critical. Each piece of the admissions process should add onto the next and tie back to the others. If you mentioned in your primary that your driving motivation for going into medicine was taking care of your sick mother, don't change it in the interview.

You can't predict what kind of interviewer you're going to get. Check out the bizarre interview moments thread for some prime examples. If you get a combative, weird, quiet, etc. interviewer, you can't do anything but try and adapt and make the experience as positive as possible. Stay calm, answer their questions, and be positive. You will almost certainly have a weird interviewer at some point. Once you accept that fact, you shouldn't need to worry about it.

While you should be prepared for the most common questions (why this school, why do you want to be a physician, etc.), I would NOT rehearse answers under any circumstances. You'll risk coming across as stiff, boring, and uncomfortable if you simply recite a memorized answer. Try and remember key ideas but improvise exactly how you're going to express them – if you're a decent speaker, that'll make your response sound fresh and unrehearsed.

I think theres a difference here between rehearsing and reciting. Rehearsing, imo, is fine and will let you reinforce the points you want to express in your mind prior to the interview so that you don't forget when the nerves come. Reciting, on the other hand, would be memorizing what you want to say word for word, which is NOT a path you want to take. Not only will it come off stiff, but should you get any curveballs, you're screwed. The best way to prepare for an interview, imo, is by talking to family members you don't see very often. They're interested in knowing why you want to go into medicine and often don't know you extremely well. If you can explain it well to them and handle their questions, you'll feel very prepared come interview time.

Unless your application is submitted late or you have an extremely outstanding interview, at most schools interviewing at the end of the cycle doesn't bode well. Think about it: if your file was complete in August but you don't interview until January or February, what does that say? I wouldn't say that you're interviewing for the waitlist per se, but if they really wanted you, they would get you that interview invitation quicker than 4-6 months after you apply (LizzyM has more or less confirmed that this is how the process works at her institution). There certainly might be other factors outside your control that may contribute to this long delay – slow reviewer, your application gets lost in the bathroom, etc. – but I wouldn't put too much stock in that. The fact is that there are people that will be complete months after you but will be invited to interview before you. I'm not sure what else that can possibly say but "we're interested in you, but not that interested." Again, I'm not saying this is a guaranteed thing and I'm sure people interview late at schools and get accepted, but I wouldn't be too optimistic about interviews late in the cycle if your file was complete early on (with the exception, perhaps, of non-rolling schools; but even then I think this is somewhat true, because while they may not fully evaluate your file until after all interviews are done, your file IS being evaluated to determine whether or not you'll get an interview – in other words, interview invites are given out in a rolling manner).

While I think this is generally correct, I still think the entire thing is extremely school dependent. I know some schools that interview for waitlist spots, while others that are required to not have filled their class before the last interview.

Make sure you have a question or two ready to ask your interviewer when you get to the "so, do you have any questions for me?" phase of the interview. I used the exact same 2-3 questions with every interviewer, so once you formulate them it gets pretty easy. If I happened to have specific questions about a school I would ask those instead, but if I didn't (and it's wholly possible that you wouldn't) I'd go with the general questions. I'd recommend taking a look at the school's website the night before your interview to try and come up with some topics for questions. If the tour and/or meet-and-greet is before the interview, PAY ATTENTION and try and get some questions from those parts of the day. That way you'll seem very interested and knowledgeable about the school.

This. Have some canned questions ready (and good ones at that, not simply 'why do you like xxx school?'). I'd also try to come up with a unique question for that school based on the information you receive that day

My best piece of advice for interviews is to be flexible and be yourself. Unfortunately there's not an easy way to change who you are, which will more than anything dictate how you do in interviews. If you're quiet, nervous, and not personable, you'll more than likely portray that to some degree (though some people can mask their personalities better than others). That's who you are, and there's not much you can do about it. Be as excited as you can about the school, vary your intonation when you're talking, be enthusiastic (but not overly so) when you speak, and be genuine. You're going to get a few curveballs, so be ready.

So true. I was given this advice over and over before interviewing, but I didn't really take it to heart until my third. They all went so much better after that. Also, try not to be over-excited about the school. Its easy to see whats genuine and what isn't.

Accepted, Waitlisted, Rejected
I have very minimal experience with being on a waitlist because I chose not to play the waitlist game, but I have been following the threads I was waitlisted at to see what people are doing and how things are going. At the Ivies, it seems like spamming the admissions office with letters of intent, updates, etc. is the best way to go. This strategy was also confirmed by my pre-health advisor; his explanation was that they want to offer as few acceptances as possible, so they will accept people that appear to be the most interested first. I don't possibly understand how people can send in 3-4 update letters with meaningful updates over the course of a cycle, but they do, and it seems those are the people who get in. So if you're waitlisted at one of these schools, get your pen and paper (or computer) ready and start drafting those letters. It's a game, and if you want to win you have to play it – hard.

Unfortunately (maybe fortunately), I have had a ton of experience with the waitlist game. While I can't speak to the advice about the Ivies, I'd say that you should ask at your interviews what the school accepts in terms of update/intent letters from waitlisters. Be upfront about it. I've had some schools tell me that they will accept only one letter during a certain time period. Others say just to update them whenever you have something new. Find out so that you're not bothering anyone with too many letters. I would also try and find out who the "key players" are at each school you're waitlisted at. These are the people that, come waitlist time, make the hard decisions. You want to be on their good side, and for them to know your name. During your interview find out who they are, and you can usually do it simply by asking WHO you should contact with future updates.

One thing I would add is to make your update letters count. These are essentially your "fourth-daries." After your primary, secondaries, and interviews, these letters are your next best bet at being accepted. Make sure your letter is well written, revised, and polished. I wouldn't go longer than 1-2 pages to make sure they read the entire thing.


I'm not going to comment on the rest as, ultimately I'm not at that point yet. Thanks again for the very informative post, Nick.

 

[mauberley]

1. Your personal statement needs to be ON FIRE.

I'm going to disagree a bit here. I feel like this perception leads a lot of people to go overboard on their statement, feeling that their statements have to be injected with pathos and melodrama for it to get noticed. Unless your story warrants that sort of treatment, don't. It's perfectly possible to tell your story in an engaging manner without overusing literary devices. Further, it's been opined on this forum that it is much, much easier to screw up your personal statement than it is to make it stand out in a flammable fashion.

I think that would probably be fine. I think this particular custom isn't the same in the med school and business worlds, though.

For what it's worth, I didn't notice a real difference between my med school interviews and my job interviews, at least in terms of custom. (Except for the fact that my job interviews were like 10x more grueling. )

 

[JubJub603]

I'd also definitely recommend taking notes after you interview at each school. What did you like? What did you not like? What were your general impressions? I did this on my MDApps, but I know a lot of people took journals/notebooks with them on their interviews or kept digital "journals" in the form of a Word document. Looking back, I'm really glad I did that because I couldn't remember anything from my first series of interviews come November/December.

I really wish I had done this.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Great post Nick! I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

 

[MilkmanAl]

One of the better posts on SDN, in my opinion. Well done, and thanks for taking the (huge amount of) time to write that.

 

[yamaraja808]

DO NOT say negative things in your interview. Just don't. You want to come across as an enthusiastic and likable person so try to find the positive in everything you're asked about from your past. You need to be honest in your interviews, but that doesn't mean you have to tell the whole story all the time. (Ex: I was asked about something I did once upon a time that I hadn't quite enjoyed. I answered the question truthfully and was waitlisted with the school later telling me that it raised all sorts of unjustified red flags. I just gave a bad impression.)

This is very true. I asked one of the professors in my home state about the interview process since he has done interviews for the medical school before. He told me about one interview between an HIV researcher (the interviewer) and an applicant. So the HIV researcher asked the interviewee, "what do you think about HIV research and its potential to help people with HIV/AIDS?" The interviewee just states that "people should just be taking naturopathic medications and not be dealing with these new medications created from research."

I don't know the full story behind this interview but I could tell that the interviewee did not handle that question properly. The professor who told me the story said that HIV researcher did everything in his power to make sure this person did not get into medical school he/she was interviewed for. So being honest is one thing but showing your honesty is another. This is why a questions should be answered in a way that shows the applicant's honesty but in such a way as to respect the interviewer.

 

[r1012]

MIDWESTERNS - a warning based on my experience I discovered as a midwesterner, it was a mistake to apply to east coast schools. This might be because east coast schools are more difficult to get in... but what I do know is that I applied to 28 established MD schools. 13 on the east coast, 1 somewhere in the south, and 14 in the midwest. 50% of the midwest schools invited me to an interview (All but 1 before November). I only got one east coast school invite - and that wasn't until the end of December.

+1, My experience was very similar, except ALL of my interview invites were in the midwest, despite having lived on the east coast for a year with my SO being on the east coast. Oh well, still happy with the cycle, just wish I had known not to spend $$ on the east coast schools.

 

[mauberley]

Excellent post, Nick.

Again, I’m not saying this is a guaranteed thing and I’m sure people interview late at schools and get accepted, but I wouldn’t be too optimistic about interviews late in the cycle if your file was complete early on (with the exception, perhaps, of non-rolling schools; but even then I think this is somewhat true, because while they may not fully evaluate your file until after all interviews are done, your file IS being evaluated to determine whether or not you’ll get an interview – in other words, interview invites are given out in a rolling manner).

Agree with this, even though I got a March interview invite (and was accepted) at a school I was complete with in August. I believe there was a good amount of luck on my part landing that one.

Understand that if you don’t bull**** your interviews and are entirely honest about your interests, motivations, etc., you’re most likely not going to get accepted to a few schools. As an example, my interviewer at WashU asked me about my future career aspirations as they relate to research. The “correct” answer would be, of course, to say that you’re very much interested in research given that WashU is a strong research institution. I told him that I had “absolutely no interest” in being a scientist in the long term – my main goal is to be a practicing physician. I was ultimately waitlisted, and while there might be many reasons why, I have no doubt that that contributed significantly because I wouldn’t fit in with their culture and/or mission as a research institution. If your goal is to get into accepted into every school you want, you’re more than likely going to have to fake it somewhat (unless you’re just an incredible person). Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

Also agree with this. I don't know that it's emphasized enough to people that they're looking for "fit" when they interview. It should not be taken as a negative reflection of your abilities or your worth as a human being (as cliché as that sounds) if you aren't made an offer. Also keep in mind that you should be interviewing the school as well on your interview day. You should be seeking to find out if the school fits you. It's a two-way street.

 

[courtnes]

I was surprised myself. But I have heard a lot on SDN about regional preference - especially in PA. If I was doing it again, I still would have applied. I just would have somewhere mentioned why Philly specifically in the application - or email them why i was applying.

Also - according to 2007 data, over 7500 OOS people applied to Philly schools. Compared to about 5000 OOS applicants to say like Creighton. or 2000 OOS applicant to Wayne State. Or 5500 OOS applicants to MCW. In conclusion, really research the interview and acceptance rates at schools and apply where you have the best shot.

Which is really funny, because PA is one of the few states where the public schools have no legal in-state preference. The private schools actually seem to have a lot more regional preference (varies from year to year - Drexel went from 29% to 39% IS a couple years ago!) and also are very CA student friendly.

 

[NickNaylor]

Agree with this, even though I got a March interview invite (and was accepted) at a school I was complete with in August. I believe there was a good amount of luck on my part landing that one.

Also agree with this. I don't know that it's emphasized enough to people that they're looking for "fit" when they interview. It should not be taken as a negative reflection of your abilities or your worth as a human being (as cliché as that sounds) if you aren't made an offer. Also keep in mind that you should be interviewing the school as well on your interview day. You should be seeking to find out if the school fits you. It's a two-way street.

Good exception to my proposed late interview "rule."

I think part of the problem is that people just have hard ons for getting into as many schools as possible, and they'll do whatever it takes to do so. Unfortunately I think this increases the chances that they'll be unhappy at whatever school they end up at since they were chosen under false pretenses. Why WOULDN'T you want to go to a school that wanted you for you? Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[slatermd]

Definitely a tl;dr.

no...it saved me from pm'ing you. Maybe. I still might. For now, thank you.

 

[obliViate21]

This was really helpful, thanks. I just completed my freshman year as an undergrad and I was hoping for your advice on taking the MCAT. I have read so many threads about doing everything as early as possible. However, I wanted to spend a solid 3 months in the summer dedicated just to the MCAT. Is that a bad idea considering I'd be done in mid August the earliest?

 

[ozzi22]

truly an amazing post. definitely one to remember. thanks and good luck in med school.

 

[senorsquishie]

Amazing post! Good luck in Med school

 

[Swiss Medical]

Thanks Naylor. This is everything I have ever wanted. But You still didn't reply to my pm.

 

[getright]

This was really helpful, thanks. I just completed my freshman year as an undergrad and I was hoping for your advice on taking the MCAT. I have read so many threads about doing everything as early as possible. However, I wanted to spend a solid 3 months in the summer dedicated just to the MCAT. Is that a bad idea considering I'd be done in mid August the earliest?

Assuming that you're planning on applying after your junior year, you would be fine if you take it during the summer after your sophomore year. Getting it out of the way early would also make the application process much less stressful.

 

[SteveJMarist]

+1, My experience was very similar, except ALL of my interview invites were in the midwest, despite having lived on the east coast for a year with my SO being on the east coast. Oh well, still happy with the cycle, just wish I had known not to spend $$ on the east coast schools.

Man. I am so confused on what to do with this situation now. Why would the east coast schools be so anti-midwest? Have no idea how to restructure my school list now

well it definitely wasn't 1, since i was telling the truth.

i wanted to question the school more but we were running out of time so i couldn't. would you think that if i didn't seem passionate about my activities, that would give them this impression?

also, when you interview, they always ask you about one of your activities.

what do you do then? do you tell them about it? wasn't this already explained on your amcas? well how do you transition from them saying "tell me more about your trip to africa" to not telling them the basic information thats already on your amcas while still remaining with time?

i think that was a problem of mine. they told me to tell them more about the activities and i spent most of the time telling them things i had already talked about on my amcas, but that was just because i didn't know how to get into more detail on other things without mentioning the basics again. i really could have gotten into more stories about why i started doing the things i did and some touching moments i had with them, but i spent too much time regurgitating information that was already there.

can I ask them if they have seen my AMCAS already? or if they know the basics?

Yep- if you didn't seem passionate at any point in the interview, that could give that impression of not being genuine.

Activities: start off by saying "building off of my application...". then tie in some new things like those experiences you had, why you started, etc.

Do not ask them if they've seen your app. It is obvious that they have.

The regurgitation def wasn't a good thing. Interviewers hate it when people do this.

Please note that I have never attended a med school interview; rather, I have extensive experience in business world interviews.

 

[SteveJMarist]

For what it's worth, I didn't notice a real difference between my med school interviews and my job interviews, at least in terms of custom. (Except for the fact that my job interviews were like 10x more grueling. )

Encouraging!

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'd also definitely recommend taking notes after you interview at each school. What did you like? What did you not like? What were your general impressions? I did this on my MDApps, but I know a lot of people took journals/notebooks with them on their interviews or kept digital "journals" in the form of a Word document. Looking back, I'm really glad I did that because I couldn't remember anything from my first series of interviews come November/December.

btw did you get this tip from Herb Abelson? because that's what they told me at the pritzker interview, and it was a good tip.

Man. I am so confused on what to do with this situation now. Why would the east coast schools be so anti-midwest? Have no idea how to restructure my school list now

i call complete bull**** on this anti-midwest nonsense. could it just be that east coast schools simply get more applications due to more people wanting to be/stay there? take for example, columbia vs. michigan, both currently ranked 10 by USNEWS. according to my msar columbia had 7k applications to michigan's 5k. similarly, the medical college of wisconsin (which i believe is private) and temple are ranked at 45. one got 6400 applicants, the other 9000. i'll let you guess which was which.

 

[SteveJMarist]

i call complete bull**** on this anti-midwest nonsense. could it just be that east coast schools simply get more applications due to more people wanting to be/stay there? take for example, columbia vs. michigan, both currently ranked 10 by USNEWS. according to my msar columbia had 7k applications to michigan's 5k. similarly, the medical college of wisconsin (which i believe is private) and temple are ranked at 45. one got 6400 applicants, the other 9000. i'll let you guess which was which.

Yea, you have a valid point. I think I'll stick with my list as is- it is not severely east-coast heavy.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

i call complete bull**** on this anti-midwest nonsense. could it just be that east coast schools simply get more applications due to more people wanting to be/stay there? take for example, columbia vs. michigan, both currently ranked 10 by USNEWS. according to my msar columbia had 7k applications to michigan's 5k. similarly, the medical college of wisconsin (which i believe is private) and temple are ranked at 45. one got 6400 applicants, the other 9000. i'll let you guess which was which.

I did make that point somewhere above. But my data shows that the schools interview about the same percentage of OOS applicants, regardless of number of applicants received. With Columbia actually interviewing about 15% vs. Michigan 13% (2007 euders data).

 

[astrife]

btw did you get this tip from Herb Abelson? because that's what they told me at the pritzker interview, and it was a good tip.


i call complete bull**** on this anti-midwest nonsense. could it just be that east coast schools simply get more applications due to more people wanting to be/stay there? take for example, columbia vs. michigan, both currently ranked 10 by USNEWS. according to my msar columbia had 7k applications to michigan's 5k. similarly, the medical college of wisconsin (which i believe is private) and temple are ranked at 45. one got 6400 applicants, the other 9000. i'll let you guess which was which.

I'm from the South, and I really disagree. I think there are heavy regional biases at play. I applied to 20 schools, mostly on the coasts or in Chicago, and the handful of schools in my area (i.e. Vandy, WashU, Baylor, and Emory)

I received interviews at Vanderbilt, WashU, and Baylor, but got little to no love from any of the schools on the coasts or Chicago. Of course I do not deserve anything, but it is VERY odd that I could get interviews at these competitive places, but be completely overlooked by schools like USC, BU, Tufts, Einstein, Georgetown, Brown, Cornell, Northwestern, UChicago, Mt. Sinai, NYU, etc...

Of course there are exceptions to every rule (especially if you come from one of the more well known undergraduate schools in the South, or if you have killer stats like NickNaylor), but I think by and large schools on the coasts and in Chicago have a bias, either conscious or unconscious, about applicants from smaller unknown schools in obscure regions of the country.

I definitely won't make the same mistake of attending a no-name school like I did for undergrad because of the same problem likely happening with residency.

 

[Slack3r]

I received interviews at Vanderbilt, WashU, and Baylor, but got little to no love from any of the schools on the coasts or Chicago. Of course I do not deserve anything, but it is VERY odd that I could get interviews at these competitive places, but be completely overlooked by schools like USC, BU, Tufts, Einstein, Georgetown, Brown, Cornell, Northwestern, UChicago, Mt. Sinai, NYU, etc...

So, you're upset you didn't get invites from top schools? Of that second list, only Tufts and Einstein strike me as schools you should be surprised at being "overlooked" at (but not really, since they receive thousands of apps). The rest are all very highly regarded.

 

[mes415]

Yea, you have a valid point. I think I'll stick with my list as is- it is not severely east-coast heavy.

I'm not sure if I believe the whole east coast thing either. I am from CA, which is apparently hated by every other state since we have so many medical schools and no one thinks we will stay in their state. Both schools I was accepted to are on the east coast, one being Drexel, which everyone seems to be commenting doesn't like people from non-PA. I really think the whole process is such a crap-shoot on which schools except which applicant. I don't think you can base your school list on where other people say they got accepted. All you can really do is follow the posted advice and apply to schools that are in your range GPA and MCAT wise. You never know what certain schools are looking for other than that. I was told by the school I am attending that everyone in the room was accepted for a different reason, which means someone else with your exact situation wouldn't necessarily have been accepted too.

-As for my advice as a sub-30 MCAT, CA resident:
Apply to as many schools as you can afford that are within your MCAT/GPA range. Look at the MSAR for schools that have accepted people with below a 30. Especially important with below 30 MCAT, most every school is really a "reach" in a sense. Don't waste your money applying to schools with a really high MCAT average, most schools don't screen for secondaries so it is going to be a waste of time and money. I made this mistake and regret it because I could have spent more time on schools I actually stood a chance at.

Have confidence in your interviews. Just because your stats aren't great doesn't mean you have less of a chance at impressing your interviewer. They interviewed you for a reason and now you have to show them why you stand out. This is even more important when your stats are average or less than average.

Don't freak out when you haven't gotten an interview by say October-November. The people with the stellar stats are most likely going to get the first interview dates and thats just the way it works. This doesn't mean you aren't going to get accepted or interviewed for that matter. But if you dwell on the fact that you haven't gotten one yet it is going to be torture!

Any questions about my experience PM me. I consider myself extremely lucky to have gotten 2 MD acceptances with my stats, especially being a CA resident and standing little to no chance at my state schools. Also I'm not a URM for anyone who might ask since I don't have mdApps to refer to.

All in all good luck to everyone! It is going to be a long and stressful year. Never lose hope!!

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I'm not sure if I believe the whole east coast thing either. I am from CA, which is apparently hated by every other state since we have so many medical schools and no one thinks we will stay in their state.

never heard that before. I always thought Cali students were accepted everywhere since there was so many of them and so few of their own med schools. At most of the schools I interviewed at, their matriculation rate was % highest own state followed by Cali residents.

Small example though. Temple's 2010 class was 55% PA residents. 45% come from 18 other states (171 students). MCWisconsin was 33% WI residents, and the rest came from 26 states (204 students).

 

[tr0gd0r]

I'm going to disagree a bit here. I feel like this perception leads a lot of people to go overboard on their statement, feeling that their statements have to be injected with pathos and melodrama for it to get noticed. Unless your story warrants that sort of treatment, don't. It's perfectly possible to tell your story in an engaging manner without overusing literary devices. Further, it's been opined on this forum that it is much, much easier to screw up your personal statement than it is to make it stand out in a flammable fashion.
...

I think the point was just that the personal statement has to be awesome (well-and-clearly-written, engaging story), not necessarily over-the-top...especially if you have lower numbers.

 

[235009]

well it definitely wasn't 1, since i was telling the truth.

i wanted to question the school more but we were running out of time so i couldn't. would you think that if i didn't seem passionate about my activities, that would give them this impression?

also, when you interview, they always ask you about one of your activities.

what do you do then? do you tell them about it? wasn't this already explained on your amcas? well how do you transition from them saying "tell me more about your trip to africa" to not telling them the basic information thats already on your amcas while still remaining with time?

i think that was a problem of mine. they told me to tell them more about the activities and i spent most of the time telling them things i had already talked about on my amcas, but that was just because i didn't know how to get into more detail on other things without mentioning the basics again. i really could have gotten into more stories about why i started doing the things i did and some touching moments i had with them, but i spent too much time regurgitating information that was already there.

can I ask them if they have seen my AMCAS already? or if they know the basics?

always assume that the interviewer has not read your file or has not read it closely enough that they remember anything beyond your numbers and the titles of your major activities. however regurgitating information is not what u should be doing ....the point is to make it personal and conversational while reiterating important background information that provides context ....u don't have to give dates and specifics ....just a sentence here or there to provide context. they didn't invite you to come all the way to their school so you can recite your application to them but every good story needs some context and it is up to you to provide enough of it so your story makes sense to someone who hasn't read your application without going into boring and unnecessary detail.

also, it is NOT your responsibility to keep an eye on the clock!!! Answer the questions as fully and as best as you can. Its not like there is a list of questions the interviewer must get answers ...this isn't like a test where u must answer all questions to get credit. An interview is supposed to be a conversation and you shouldn't just be trying to answer questions to get to the next one. Remember that every question you are being asked should be answered with the subtext of "why do you want to be a doctor" or "why are you a good fit for this profession and this school".

 

[NickNaylor]

You can usually tell pretty quickly in the interview whether or not your interviewer has read your file closely. Adjust accordingly.

 

[SteveJMarist]

never heard that before. I always thought Cali students were accepted everywhere since there was so many of them and so few of their own med schools. At most of the schools I interviewed at, their matriculation rate was % highest own state followed by Cali residents.

Small example though. Temple's 2010 class was 55% PA residents. 45% come from 18 other states (171 students). MCWisconsin was 33% WI residents, and the rest came from 26 states (204 students).

I'm taking everything you're saying very seriously, but with 33 schools on my list (including both Temple and MCW), I'm not sure how else to make my list more geographically acceptable while also taking into account my stats (3.63 cgpa, 3.7 sgpa, 31Q). Right now I have 15 east-coasts, 1 cali (loma linda), 3ish southern schools, and 14 midwest (a handful of which are the IL schools other than U of C and SIU). The problem is that a huge chunk of the OOS friendly schools that are within my reach lie on the east cost.

 

[SteveJMarist]

I'm not sure if I believe the whole east coast thing either. I am from CA, which is apparently hated by every other state since we have so many medical schools and no one thinks we will stay in their state. Both schools I was accepted to are on the east coast, one being Drexel, which everyone seems to be commenting doesn't like people from non-PA. I really think the whole process is such a crap-shoot on which schools except which applicant. I don't think you can base your school list on where other people say they got accepted. All you can really do is follow the posted advice and apply to schools that are in your range GPA and MCAT wise. You never know what certain schools are looking for other than that. I was told by the school I am attending that everyone in the room was accepted for a different reason, which means someone else with your exact situation wouldn't necessarily have been accepted too.

Yea. I have to agree that since it is somewhat of a crap shoot, one can only go on an act of faith based on their stats and experiences.

 

[astrife]

So, you're upset you didn't get invites from top schools? Of that second list, only Tufts and Einstein strike me as schools you should be surprised at being "overlooked" at (but not really, since they receive thousands of apps). The rest are all very highly regarded.

Being rejected outright by almost every single school I applied to on the coasts and Chicago, but being interviewed at 3/4 of the top schools in my region seems very odd to me. FWIW I also had significantly higher stats than all these schools averages.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I'm taking everything you're saying very seriously, but with 33 schools on my list (including both Temple and MCW), I'm not sure how else to make my list more geographically acceptable while also taking into account my stats (3.63 cgpa, 3.7 sgpa, 31Q). Right now I have 15 east-coasts, 1 cali (loma linda), 3ish southern schools, and 14 midwest (a handful of which are the IL schools other than U of C and SIU). The problem is that a huge chunk of the OOS friendly schools that are within my reach lie on the east cost.

Since you are planning on applying to so many schools - I wouldn't stress trying to cut your list. If you suddenly decided to cut down to 20 applications and kept mostly east coast schools, I would be worried for you. But right not if you have Temple, MCW, all the Illinois schools (minus UChicago and SIU - not worth it) and a very broad list, don't worry. If you do want to consider other places to apply, I would recommend looking at my MDapp... but if you are already planning on applying to must of those places, you are in great shape. And maybe you will get lucky and get east coast interviews.

 

[SteveJMarist]

Since you are planning on applying to so many schools - I wouldn't stress trying to cut your list. If you suddenly decided to cut down to 20 applications and kept mostly east coast schools, I would be worried for you. But right not if you have Temple, MCW, all the Illinois schools (minus UChicago and SIU - not worth it) and a very broad list, don't worry. If you do want to consider other places to apply, I would recommend looking at my MDapp... but if you are already planning on applying to must of those places, you are in great shape. And maybe you will get lucky and get east coast interviews.

My thoughts exactly . I see that you were accepted to Vtech Carilion. Their numbers seem pretty high, though I know that they are a newer school. Do you think I should slap this one on? That would put me at 34 schools .

 

[BrainBuff]

Great post Nick and it is awesome you took the time with all the details!

A couple of things that are currently being discussed (from my own experience)

1. Your personal statement needs to be ON FIRE.

Very much true. During my interviews I was told by several adcoms that they were looking forward to meet me in person because of my personal statement. One of them suggested that I should have it published. It clearly got me noticed.

2. Geographic Location:

There is a clear east coast - west coast bias. East coast schools (including the ivies) prefer their own and may look at the rest of the country to sprinkle some diversity. The same goes on for California schools. If you don't have some ties (research, undergrad institution or legacy) it is tough to break thru either way.

(An ex: out of about 173 students attending Penn Preview, I think only ONE came from a Texas school; while 88 came from Ivies + Stanford and MIT. Most of the rest of the students were from east coast liberal arts colleges)

I think it is helpful to look at a pattern of acceptances from previous years at your UG and apply to those schools, plus your dream schools. You will be more likely to gain acceptances that way.