Resetting the monetary system

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urge

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gold occasionally shows rapid increase in value over a 5-10 year period, but usually just slowly erodes in real value over a long time. There is probably 0.0% chance that gold has a role in the "next monetary system" as the author mentions. There isn't enough on the planet to be useful as a currency and it doesn't transfer value easily enough in a rapidly growing and interconnected world.

Currency will continue to be based on promises from governments to back the value. The relative values of currencies amongst one another will vary based on faith in those governments. But the system assuredly is not going away. Blockchain technology like Bitcoin likely has far better odds of being used in a new type of currency than gold does.


It's hook on some people's imagination continues and yet it is still just a shiny metal of which the total amount on the planet could fit inside a 20m cube.
 
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gold occasionally shows rapid increase in value over a 5-10 year period, but usually just slowly erodes in real value over a long time. There is probably 0.0% chance that gold has a role in the "next monetary system" as the author mentions. There isn't enough on the planet to be useful as a currency and it doesn't transfer value easily enough in a rapidly growing and interconnected world.

Currency will continue to be based on promises from governments to back the value. The relative values of currencies amongst one another will vary based on faith in those governments. But the system assuredly is not going away. Blockchain technology like Bitcoin likely has far better odds of being used in a new type of currency than gold does.


It's hook on some people's imagination continues and yet it is still just a shiny metal of which the total amount on the planet could fit inside a 20m cube.
I think it is important to keep into perspective that the current fiat monetary system has only been in use for 40 years, give or take, vs. thousands of years for hard assests like gold.

The zero % interest rate has not grown the economy as expected. However, houses are at an all time high, while the real salary of people has declined. Young people will not be able to afford a house if this trend continues. And to top it off, they might even go into negative interest rates in an attempt to pump the economy further. Imagine the dislocation between asset prices and salaries if that ever happens.

Something will have to give.
 
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How do you think that green line is going to look if we go into negative rates? What about the yellow?
 
I think it is important to keep into perspective that the current fiat monetary system has only been in use for 40 years, give or take, vs. thousands of years for hard assests like gold.

Correct. The Iphone has been in use since June of 2007. The first version of 802.11 wifi was introduced in 1997. We aren't seeing those go away any time soon to go back to what we used thousands of years ago either.

We ain't going back to the crappy old days of gold. Zero chance. None. Not gonna happen. Like I said, the sum total amount of gold on the planet can practically fit in your living room. It's useless as a currency in an exploding and globally connected population. 10,000 years ago when you could trade a gold coin for an ox from your neighbor it was a bit more practical. Now when you can use your phone to catch an Uber or have your groceries delivered it is useless.


For anybody that thinks we are going back to a currency based on gold, I'd be curious to see them describe how it would work. Gold standard? Really? Are we just going to steal all the gold from China to make it work? Within a few years they will have more than anybody else in the world. Besides, it'd be god awful terrible for the country to try to go back to that.
 
Correct. The Iphone has been in use since June of 2007. The first version of 802.11 wifi was introduced in 1997. We aren't seeing those go away any time soon to go back to what we used thousands of years ago either.

We ain't going back to the crappy old days of gold. Zero chance. None. Not gonna happen. Like I said, the sum total amount of gold on the planet can practically fit in your living room. It's useless as a currency in an exploding and globally connected population. 10,000 years ago when you could trade a gold coin for an ox from your neighbor it was a bit more practical. Now when you can use your phone to catch an Uber or have your groceries delivered it is useless.


For anybody that thinks we are going back to a currency based on gold, I'd be curious to see them describe how it would work. Gold standard? Really? Are we just going to steal all the gold from China to make it work? Within a few years they will have more than anybody else in the world. Besides, it'd be god awful terrible for the country to try to go back to that.
If the iPhone crashed the world economy, I actually believe we would go back to the flip phone.

Anyway, the gold standard would not mean that you cannot use dollars or credit cards. It would mean that the Fed would not be able to print more money without more gold.

You are right that the amount of gold mined is relatively small compared to the trillions of dollars floating around. The gold standard would require a revaluing of gold. Maybe an ounce would be 10k dollars, or 20k dollars, or whatever.
 
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If the iPhone crashed the world economy, I actually believe we would go back to the flip phone.

Anyway, the gold standard would not mean that you cannot use dollars or credit cards. It would mean that the Fed would not be able to print more money without more gold.

You are right that the amount of gold mined is relatively small compared to the trillions of dollars floating around. The gold standard would require a revaluing of gold. Maybe an ounce would be 10k dollars, or 20k dollars, or whatever.

and it has zero chance of happening. There is literally no way to make it work. You can't just say well our dollar is convertible to this physical amount of gold in Fort Knox. The fact that the idea is obsessed over by a remote minority of the population fascinates me.
 
and it has zero chance of happening. There is literally no way to make it work.
Here is an essay describing how the gold standard works.

It basically means you cannot print money. There doesn't have to be redemption of cash for gold, that's another issue. Virtually zero inflation.
 
Here is an essay describing how the gold standard works.

It basically means you cannot print money. Virtually zero inflation.

I understand what the gold standard means. I am saying it cannot work. Zero inflation is terrible for a country and economy. It's not as bad as runaway inflation, but it is a disaster long term. There is a reason that everybody went away from it and nobody wants to go back.
 
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I understand what the gold standard means. I am saying it cannot work. Zero inflation is terrible for a country and economy. It's not as bad as runaway inflation, but it is a disaster long term. There is a reason that everybody went away from it and nobody wants to go back.
Politicians want to spend more money than fiscally possible. A fiat system is great for that. Just print more money.
 
Politicians want to spend more money than fiscally possible. A fiat system is great for that. Just print more money.
Would you also abolish fractional reserve lending with this new gold standard? It seems to me that a "fiat" currency is unnecessary when it comes to "printing" money.
 
I understand what the gold standard means. I am saying it cannot work. Zero inflation is terrible for a country and economy. It's not as bad as runaway inflation, but it is a disaster long term. There is a reason that everybody went away from it and nobody wants to go back.

I think the current system is a disaster. And only ones truly benefiting are the bankers. A country should have the right to print its own money. We do not need to pay interest to an entity (Fed Reserve, which is as federal as federal express), which cannot be audited. And these lending practices are precisely the underlying reason for market crash in 2008. And we are the ones bailing out these con artists.

I wonder why Soros is dumping US stock and buying gold.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...oros-cuts-u-s-stocks-by-37-buys-gold-producer
 
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Would you also abolish fractional reserve lending with this new gold standard?
Yes. That's another way of printing money.
 
Going back to the gold standard is one of the dumbest ideas, ever. People complain about how weak the recovery has been without considering the counterfactual: we would currently be in a depression that would make the Great one look like a hiccup if it weren't for fractional reserve banking and QE. In today's economy, it's is simply impossible to escape a recession if credit markets are frozen solid.

"
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-...e-worst-idea-in-the-world-in-one-chart-2012-9

Let us use global transactions as an example (though the case applies just as well for national transactions). We assume that globalisation holds steady, with global trade averaging around 20% of the world’s GDP. Under these circumstances, the value of global trade will rise in step with the rise in the value of global GDP. If the world economy has a trend nominal rate of growth of around 6% to 6.5% (perfectly realistic in the current climate), then the supply of currency to the world economy needs in order to conduct international trade has to rise by around 6% to 6.5%.

The problem that the world faces is that the supply of gold rose less than 3% last year. Thus there is too little growth in gold supply to facilitate the growth in the trade of international goods and services. There are only two possible outcomes that can be generated by this situation. The first is that globalisation goes into reverse (so that trade becomes a declining share of the world economy, and nominal trade grows at around 3.5% while the economy grows at around 6.5%). Reducing the role of international trade in the world economy would make the world economy less efficient. That means that people would have a lower standard of living than they could otherwise achieve.


Alternatively, the world could experience deflationary pressures. If the world economy is experiencing deflation, with prices falling at 0.5% every year, global GDP would grow at around 3.0% per year in nominal terms. That could give a nominal trend rate of growth for exports of around 3.0% per year, in line with the growth in gold supply. However, a world economy with repeated bouts of deflation is hardly healthy – as Japan in recent years or the US in the 1930s demonstrated. Deflation imposes a heavy burden on borrowers. That can serve as a disincentive to investment and entrepreneurship.

oYz7Zue.png

"
 
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Going back to the gold standard is one of the dumbest ideas, ever. People complain about how weak the recovery has been without considering the counterfactual: we would currently be in a depression that would make the Great one look like a hiccup if it weren't for fractional reserve banking and QE. In today's economy, it's is simply impossible to escape a recession if credit markets are frozen solid.

"
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-...e-worst-idea-in-the-world-in-one-chart-2012-9

Let us use global transactions as an example (though the case applies just as well for national transactions). We assume that globalisation holds steady, with global trade averaging around 20% of the world’s GDP. Under these circumstances, the value of global trade will rise in step with the rise in the value of global GDP. If the world economy has a trend nominal rate of growth of around 6% to 6.5% (perfectly realistic in the current climate), then the supply of currency to the world economy needs in order to conduct international trade has to rise by around 6% to 6.5%.

The problem that the world faces is that the supply of gold rose less than 3% last year. Thus there is too little growth in gold supply to facilitate the growth in the trade of international goods and services. There are only two possible outcomes that can be generated by this situation. The first is that globalisation goes into reverse (so that trade becomes a declining share of the world economy, and nominal trade grows at around 3.5% while the economy grows at around 6.5%). Reducing the role of international trade in the world economy would make the world economy less efficient. That means that people would have a lower standard of living than they could otherwise achieve.


Alternatively, the world could experience deflationary pressures. If the world economy is experiencing deflation, with prices falling at 0.5% every year, global GDP would grow at around 3.0% per year in nominal terms. That could give a nominal trend rate of growth for exports of around 3.0% per year, in line with the growth in gold supply. However, a world economy with repeated bouts of deflation is hardly healthy – as Japan in recent years or the US in the 1930s demonstrated. Deflation imposes a heavy burden on borrowers. That can serve as a disincentive to investment and entrepreneurship.

oYz7Zue.png

"
I think it is unfair to use that chart to poo poo gold. At the moment gold is not currency. It is a commodity. It goes in and out of vogue depending the prevailing sentiment. If gold were declared currency I'm sure that chart would look a lot more stable.

I do agree that in a gold standard we would see deflation every time the economy grows. Is that a bad thing if you are a saver? No, you would love it. Why is it that everyone wants to cater to debtors? From my point of view debtors are deadbeats. We should cater to savers.

Who would you rather marry all things being equal, someone with a lot of debt, or someone with a lot of savings? It's a no brainer. Debt is bad and savings are good.

Why is such a simple thing being twisted around as if it were complicated? As if going into debt were a great thing? It is crazy.
 
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I do agree that in a gold standard we would see deflation every time the economy grows. Is that a bad thing if you are a saver? No, you would love it. Why is it that everyone wants to cater to debtors? From my point of view debtors are deadbeats. We should cater to savers.

Why is such a simple thing being twisted around as if it were complicated? As if going into debt were a great thing? It is crazy.


Our country has a ton of debt. With deflation, it will cost even more to pay it back. Inflation lessens the amount we owe over time. Inflation also encourages people to actually spend money which is good for the economy. If nobody spends anything, nobody produces anything. Savers don't get hurt by inflation, they just need to save in ways that return a greater rate than inflation over time. Sticking money in a safe is not beneficial to them, whether it is backed by gold or not.
 
Our country has a ton of debt. With deflation, it will cost even more to pay it back. Inflation lessens the amount we owe over time. Inflation also encourages people to actually spend money which is good for the economy. If nobody spends anything, nobody produces anything. Savers don't get hurt by inflation, they just need to save in ways that return a greater rate than inflation over time. Sticking money in a safe is not beneficial to them, whether it is backed by gold or not.
That's a deadbeat mentality. "Debt is good. Inflation is great, so that I have to pay less."

Why are you equating debt with investments? All debt means is that you are working with other people's savings. Why not work with your own?
 
That's a deadbeat mentality. "Debt is good. Inflation is great, so that I have to pay less."

Why are you equating debt with investments? All debt means is that you are working with other people's savings. Why not work with your own?

You seem to be misinterpreting my belief that some inflation is good for the US economy and our nation's debt management with what I believe is best for an individual to do for themselves (which is to live within their means and save, save, save).

The US has a ton of debt. You can't wish it away. We can only deal with it. Going to a gold standard would increase the pain of paying back our debt.
 
That's a deadbeat mentality. "Debt is good. Inflation is great, so that I have to pay less."

Why are you equating debt with investments? All debt means is that you are working with other people's savings. Why not work with your own?

Do you know what savers do with their savings? They invest it, i.e. loan it, to other people (deadbeats?) ... but why invest/loan when you can sit on it and it just gets more valuable because of the magic of deflation? This is one reason deflation is bad.

Another reason deflation is bad is that businesses aren't selling goods. Customers aren't buying, they're saving, because tomorrow the goods will cost less. But the businesses are still paying their employees ... with ever-more-valuable deflated money. Until the layoffs begin.
 
I think it is unfair to use that chart to poo poo gold. At the moment gold is not currency. It is a commodity. It goes in and out of vogue depending the prevailing sentiment. If gold were declared currency I'm sure that chart would look a lot more stable.

No, it wouldn't. In the 20th century inflation was much more volatile before Nixon depegged. The period since the late 70s and early 80s has been the least volatile for inflation either up or down in history.

4ACRjbZ.png


I do agree that in a gold standard we would see deflation every time the economy grows. Is that a bad thing if you are a saver? No, you would love it. Why is it that everyone wants to cater to debtors? From my point of view debtors are deadbeats. We should cater to savers.

Who would you rather marry all things being equal, someone with a lot of debt, or someone with a lot of savings? It's a no brainer. Debt is bad and savings are good.

Why is such a simple thing being twisted around as if it were complicated? As if going into debt were a great thing? It is crazy.

It's silly trying to analogize national and world economies with the image of a household sitting around the dinner table looking at their credit card statement. A government is not a family of four, nor should a government be restricted to the financial ingenuity of an individual when having to deal with myriad macroeconomic problems.

"Debt is bad and savings are good" is such a gross oversimplification as to be laughable. The total market capitalization of the US stock market is somewhere around $20-25 trillion. The total value of US corporate debt is somewhere around $25-30 trillion. Large cap, dividend paying US companies are the greatest wealth creating entities in the history of the world. They did not get this way cause a bunch of entrepreneurs sat around the dinner table and saved pennies to start a company. They financed heavily with debt, grew their revenues, used revenues to finance more debt, and eventually started making enough revenue to have a significant profit and pay a dividend while still servicing their debt. Every single industry and service sector (be it housing, autos, manufacturing, healthcare, education, technology, GOLD MINERS, insurance, retail, food) would collapse overnight if credit markets dried up, and that's exactly what would happen if we had a sudden reversion to the gold standard.
 
No, it wouldn't. In the 20th century inflation was much more volatile before Nixon depegged. The period since the late 70s and early 80s has been the least volatile for inflation either up or down in history.

4ACRjbZ.png




It's silly trying to analogize national and world economies with the image of a household sitting around the dinner table looking at their credit card statement. A government is not a family of four, nor should a government be restricted to the financial ingenuity of an individual when having to deal with myriad macroeconomic problems.

"Debt is bad and savings are good" is such a gross oversimplification as to be laughable. The total market capitalization of the US stock market is somewhere around $20-25 trillion. The total value of US corporate debt is somewhere around $25-30 trillion. Large cap, dividend paying US companies are the greatest wealth creating entities in the history of the world. They did not get this way cause a bunch of entrepreneurs sat around the dinner table and saved pennies to start a company. They financed heavily with debt, grew their revenues, used revenues to finance more debt, and eventually started making enough revenue to have a significant profit and pay a dividend while still servicing their debt. Every single industry and service sector (be it housing, autos, manufacturing, healthcare, education, technology, GOLD MINERS, insurance, retail, food) would collapse overnight if credit markets dried up, and that's exactly what would happen if we had a sudden reversion to the gold standard.
That's a sexy post but you seem to forget that America was on the gold standard when all those large cap dividend paying companies were created.

If what you say is true America would not have been the country where most mayor companies are from.
 
That's a sexy post but you seem to forget that America was on the gold standard when all those large cap dividend paying companies were created.

If what you say is true America would not have been the country where most mayor companies are from.

if you think the economy in 2016 is similar to the economy in 1916, well, I don't know what to say.
 
if you think the economy in 2016 is similar to the economy in 1916, well, I don't know what to say.
I don't know what to say if you think what drives the economy has changed in the last 100 years. Have people stopped trying to get rich in the interim?

We have gone to the moon, but the rules of gravity have not changed.
 
I don't know what to say if you think what drives the economy has changed in the last 100 years. Have people stopped trying to get rich in the interim?

We have gone to the moon, but the rules of gravity have not changed.

we still make cars, we just compete with manufacturers in many other countries and we sell our products abroad as well. Same thing with credit markets. We now compete on everything globally.
 
So in your mind, let government keep increasing spending & debt and inflation will take care of the problem. The answer might not be going back to gold standard but going away from it def contributed to the current crisis. Gold std is still here except gold is black, and when the air is let out of the petrodollar balloon there will be an unparalleled global crisis.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
So in your mind, let government keep increasing spending & debt and inflation will take care of the problem.

I think you are reading things that aren't there. My point is that going to the gold standard is a terrible idea and would destroy our economy and that a small amount of inflation is a very good thing including helping us pay our debt down easier.

I have never suggested to "let government keep increasing spending and debt". That's terrible. I'd like to see a balanced budget from Congress each year. That has nothing to do with a gold standard.

Debt is bad. Inflation is bad. Blah blah blah. It doesn't mean you think spending more than you make is good to recognize the simple fact that we are nearing $20 trillion in debt as a country. That's approximately $60,000 per citizen in this country, or more than the median household income. As much as I wish we didn't have the debt, it is there and wishing it goes away doesn't make it happen.
 
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That's a sexy post but you seem to forget that America was on the gold standard when all those large cap dividend paying companies were created.

If what you say is true America would not have been the country where most mayor companies are from.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter when these old Dow majors were established- what matters is that dividends were able to grow decade after decade because of significant debt issuance in the age of fiat currency. These companies were able to keep growing EPS at significant rates instead of stagnating and being pegged to the rate of how much additional yellow metal could be pulled out of the ground (3%).

X7jOzEm.png


Also, keep in mind that these were the last 5 additions to the Dow:

1. Apple
2. Visa
3. Goldman
4. Nike
5. UnitedHealth

They did not became megacaps because they were frugal debt haters.
 
It's hard to disagree with Druckenmiller - the most successful money manager of all time (maybe...).

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/04/druckenmiller-get-out-of-the-stock-market-own-gold.html

At least he is right about getting out of the stock market....that part is pretty obvious considering the P/E ratio of the S&P is at an all time high (21x), that cooperate debt is at an all-time high and the amount of that debt that is B-rated and covenenant lite debt dwarfs the amount during the subprime crisis. The only reason stock prices are still hanging on is because the continued loose monetary policy has allowed cooperations to do stock buy backs at an incredible rate. It's astounding really.
 
It's hard to disagree with Druckenmiller - the most successful money manager of all time (maybe...).

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/04/druckenmiller-get-out-of-the-stock-market-own-gold.html

At least he is right about getting out of the stock market....that part is pretty obvious considering the P/E ratio of the S&P is at an all time high (21x), that cooperate debt is at an all-time high and the amount of that debt that is B-rated and covenenant lite debt dwarfs the amount during the subprime crisis. The only reason stock prices are still hanging on is because the continued loose monetary policy has allowed cooperations to do stock buy backs at an incredible rate. It's astounding really.

It's actually pretty easy to argue with these guys. Kudos to the amount of money he made historically, but I pay no heed to guys who make predictions about impending crashes at some nebulous future date. Druckenmiller has been spouting the same "we're in a debt crisis, sell everything, buy gold!" nonsense since late 2012/early 2013. The S&P returned 30% in 2013 and a further 10% in 2014 if I recall correctly, and that doesn't include dividends. Investors lose significant amount of money over their lifetimes not just by being fully invested at the start of a crash, but also by being in cash during sharp bull markets.

Paul Samuelson:

"To prove that Wall Street is an early omen of movements still to come in GNP, commentators quote economic studies alleging that market downturns predicted four out of the last five recessions. That is an understatement. Wall Street indexes predicted nine out of the last five recessions! And its mistakes were beauties."
 
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Also, keep in mind that these were the last 5 additions to the Dow:

1. Apple
2. Visa
3. Goldman
4. Nike
5. UnitedHealth

They did not became megacaps because they were frugal debt haters.

You forgot to add the following to your list.

6 Enron
7 Worldcom
8 All the forgotten .com companies from 1999
 
You forgot to add the following to your list.

6 Enron
7 Worldcom
8 All the forgotten .com companies from 1999

I'm not sure what your cherry picking of fraudulent companies or companies that never had any substantial revenue has to do with anything, but if you want to keep going off on tangents that don't address the substance of any of the arguments or data I've put forth regarding debt and corporate growth, I guess that's your prerogative. Perhaps if you could provide me with a dozen or so examples of large cap companies that did not issue significant debt during their exponential growth phase, then you might be persuasive. I think, though, an impartial observer can probably see by now how depegging and fiat currencies have led to unprecedented wealth.
 
I'm not sure what your cherry picking of fraudulent companies or companies that never had any substantial revenue has to do with anything, but if you want to keep going off on tangents that don't address the substance of any of the arguments or data I've put forth regarding debt and corporate growth, I guess that's your prerogative. Perhaps if you could provide me with a dozen or so examples of large cap companies that did not issue significant debt during their exponential growth phase, then you might be persuasive. I think, though, an impartial observer can probably see by now how depegging and fiat currencies have led to unprecedented wealth.
1 These companies are memorable because of the accounting fraud used to hide the massive debt hole they were in. It was the debts that killed these companies, not the fraud. The fraud just kept them going for longer than they should have. I'm sure there are countless other companies that have succumbed to debt but we have forgotten.

2 You seem to portray that Nike, Apple, Visa, Goldman are what they are because of their debt. They are what they are because the have desirable products and services.

3 Perhaps I was not clear when I said that debt is not a good thing. Over all it is not, but it is a means to an end. Debt is reasonable as long as there is an end in sight. The problem is when debt becomes the end point. Going into debt so you can pay your prior debts, followed by an ever bigger debt and so forth. This is how governments are currently run. It's never ending. There always has to be more debt otherwise the country's finances collapse. The only debt a government should have is when an emergencies or catastrophe happen, not for normal daily operations.
 
No, it wouldn't. In the 20th century inflation was much more volatile before Nixon depegged. The period since the late 70s and early 80s has been the least volatile for inflation either up or down in history.

4ACRjbZ.png

I think that chart is somewhat unfair without a proper background. This one is better:
Tim%20IaconoInflation%20%20Before%20and%20After%20the%20Federal%20Reserve-2013-03-04-001.png


http://www.24hgold.com/english/contributor.aspx?article=4269461978G10020&contributor=Tim+Iacono

The "acceptable" 3% inflation every year for the past 40 years has caused a massive inflation in prices compared to the prior 150 plus years, yet you proclaim that as stability.
 
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter when these old Dow majors were established- what matters is that dividends were able to grow decade after decade because of significant debt issuance in the age of fiat currency. These companies were able to keep growing EPS at significant rates instead of stagnating and being pegged to the rate of how much additional yellow metal could be pulled out of the ground (3%).

X7jOzEm.png
What is this chart of? It doesn't even say what the Y axis is.
 
1 These companies are memorable because of the accounting fraud used to hide the massive debt hole they were in. It was the debts that killed these companies, not the fraud. The fraud just kept them going for longer than they should have. I'm sure there are countless other companies that have succumbed to debt but we have forgotten.

This is still missing the point. There are companies with significant debt that fail. There are companies with significant debt that have become tremendous successes. There are no companies either private or public that have become tremendous successes without debt. Debt is a financial instrument that is indispensable when trying to start a business, and trying to make a blanket statement that implies that all debt is intrinsically "bad" is just plain silly.

2 You seem to portray that Nike, Apple, Visa, Goldman are what they are because of their debt. They are what they are because the have desirable products and services.

I'm not implying they are what they are solely because of their debt. I am saying that an extremely desirable product/service and debt are the sine qua nons of a successful megacap company. Again I'll ask- tell me a successful megacap (either growth or value) that did not have significant debt in their "hypergrowth" phase?

3 Perhaps I was not clear when I said that debt is not a good thing. Over all it is not, but it is a means to an end. Debt is reasonable as long as there is an end in sight. The problem is when debt becomes the end point. Going into debt so you can pay your prior debts, followed by an ever bigger debt and so forth. This is how governments are currently run. It's never ending. There always has to be more debt otherwise the country's finances collapse. The only debt a government should have is when an emergencies or catastrophe happen, not for normal daily operations.

I agree that debt for debt's sake is ridiculous. I also agree that a government should run budget surpluses whenever possible. I suspect, though, that "whenever possible" certainly varies based on user interpretation.



I think that chart is somewhat unfair without a proper background. This one is better:
Tim%20IaconoInflation%20%20Before%20and%20After%20the%20Federal%20Reserve-2013-03-04-001.png


http://www.24hgold.com/english/contributor.aspx?article=4269461978G10020&contributor=Tim+Iacono

The "acceptable" 3% inflation every year for the past 40 years has caused a massive inflation in prices compared to the prior 150 plus years, yet you proclaim that as stability.

Talk about an extremely misleading chart. It looks scary when GDP per capita isn't shown for context. The parabolic inflation slope in the chart you posted isn't impressive as long as GDP is outpacing inflation

gouwa54.png
 
Tim%20IaconoInflation%20%20Before%20and%20After%20the%20Federal%20Reserve-2013-03-04-001.png



Talk about an extremely misleading chart. It looks scary when GDP per capita isn't shown for context. The parabolic inflation slope in the chart you posted isn't impressive as long as GDP is outpacing inflation

gouwa54.png

I love your chart. Superimpose it to mine. I think it makes my point very clearly

Under gold standard the GDP per capita was growing nicely (contrary to the nay sayers here saying that the gold standard is bad for the economy) with price stability for goods. So in reality people were getting richer every year.

After coming off the gold standard people have been impoverished by a steeper rise in good prices than the rise in GDP per capita. Has the GDP per capita risen 10 times over since 1970? Clearly not on your chart. It has barely tripled. People are now paying 10 times the price for goods with only a 3 times increase GDP/capita since coming off the gold standard and you call that an improvement? Are you insane?

PS: Thanks for making my point with these nice charts.
 
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I love your chart. Superimpose it to mine. I think it makes my point very clearly

Under gold standard the GDP per capita was growing nicely (contrary to the nay sayers here saying that the gold standard is bad for the economy) with price stability for goods. So in reality people were getting richer every year.

After coming off the gold standard people have been impoverished by a steeper rise in good prices than the rise in GDP per capita. Has the GDP per capita risen 10 times over since 1970? Clearly not on your chart. It has barely tripled. People are now paying 10 times the price for goods with only a 3 times increase GDP/capita since coming off the gold standard and you call that an improvement? Are you insane?

PS: Thanks for making my point with these nice charts.

1) Inflation is good. Prices rise with inflation, so does the value of your investments, and the size of your paycheck.
2) GDP is not a measure of standard of living. If you measured lightbulbs like they measure GDP, you'd say the price of light rose by 3-5x in the last 200 years. If you measure lightbulbs by price per lumen-hour, the cost has dropped by 100x.
 
1) Inflation is good. Prices rise with inflation, so does the value of your investments, and the size of your paycheck.
2) GDP is not a measure of standard of living. If you measured lightbulbs like they measure GDP, you'd say the price of light rose by 3-5x in the last 200 years. If you measure lightbulbs by price per lumen-hour, the cost has dropped by 100x.
1 The price of your house and your paycheck must rise way more than inflation if you don't want to end up in the red. It is not necessarily cause and effect.

2 You are now addressing the problem with measuring economic activity through the lens of inflation. That is a separate issue. All the CPI measures are flawed in a sense that you are not buying the exact same article through time. You have to take it with a grain of salt. The problem with your argument is that all this data comes from the Fed. The same flaw that applies to the CPI used for the rise in comsumer goods also applies to the gains in the GDP. As flawed as it might be that is the data standing. And it disagrees with your point of view.
 
1 The price of your house and your paycheck must rise way more than inflation if you don't want to end up in the red. It is not necessarily cause and effect.

2 You are now addressing the problem with measuring economic activity through the lens of inflation. That is a separate issue. All the CPI measures are flawed in a sense that you are not buying the exact same article through time. You have to take it with a grain of salt. The problem with your argument is that all this data comes from the Fed. The same flaw that applies to the CPI used for the rise in comsumer goods also applies to the gains in the GDP. As flawed as it might be that is the data standing. And it disagrees with your point of view.

1) some inflation is good. end of story. Deflation is terrible. No inflation is not helpful. There is no good argument otherwise.

2) "the data" doesn't disagree with anything I've stated.
 
After coming off the gold standard people have been impoverished by a steeper rise in good prices than the rise in GDP per capita.
Whoa, whoa, whoa ... slow down there.

Are you really making the argument that people in the US have been impoverished since 1933? Standard of living has been on an almost continual generally upward trajectory since then, minus a couple of dips and bumps that had nothing to do with the gold standard.

You're lost in the weeds of ideas and theory and numbers, and somehow it's led you to conclude that the last 80 years of US History has been a tale of woe.


Returning to a gold standard and ending fractional reserve lending are not the solution you think they are.
 
I love your chart. Superimpose it to mine. I think it makes my point very clearly

Under gold standard the GDP per capita was growing nicely (contrary to the nay sayers here saying that the gold standard is bad for the economy) with price stability for goods. So in reality people were getting richer every year.

After coming off the gold standard people have been impoverished by a steeper rise in good prices than the rise in GDP per capita. Has the GDP per capita risen 10 times over since 1970? Clearly not on your chart. It has barely tripled. People are now paying 10 times the price for goods with only a 3 times increase GDP/capita since coming off the gold standard and you call that an improvement? Are you insane?

PS: Thanks for making my point with these nice charts.

Nice try, urge. In your rush to have your point made for you, I think you missed the subtitle in that chart that said "adjusted for inflation using 2005 dollars. You are talking about nominal gains. Nominally, US GDP per capita in 1970 was $5 billion. In 2015, it was $56 billion. Try again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
 
Nice try, urge. In your rush to have your point made for you, I think you missed the subtitle in that chart that said "adjusted for inflation using 2005 dollars. You are talking about nominal gains. Nominally, US GDP per capita in 1970 was $5 billion. In 2015, it was $56 billion. Try again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
No. I did not miss the point. I was fully aware that the dollar value for the GDP was in 2005 dollars. The fact is that since 1970 the GDP has only tripled in 2005 dollars, while the price of goods has gone tenfold. That is a for recipe for poverty.

Don't understand why you it is so hard for you to open your eyes.
 
Here is another chart showing how prices have skyrocketed since coming off the gold standard.

The problem is that the GDP has not skyrocketed accordingly.
 

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1) some inflation is good. end of story. Deflation is terrible. No inflation is not helpful. There is no good argument otherwise.

2) "the data" doesn't disagree with anything I've stated.
Sure, whatever you say.

I'll file that with other pearls like dexamethasone doesn't itch if you give it over a few minutes.
 
Sure, whatever you say.

I'll file that with other pearls like dexamethasone doesn't itch if you give it over a few minutes.

it's basic macro-econ and agreed upon by both sides of the political spectrum.
 
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gold-...-guys-hitting-the-reset-button-163831013.html

The way things are going it is not implausible. Negative interest rates looming in the horizon point to a massive credit bubble.

Food for thought.
Interest rates aren't going negative. The Fed is set to raise them soon, with more increases on the horizon. The financial system is actually fairly stable- you don't hit the reset button until you're in a Zimbabwe, Argentina, or Weimar situation, which we're faaaaaaar from. Not only that, but such a reset could cause world wars, particularly if we were to do so, as our currency functions as such a large reserve that China and other nations would be quite understandably upset and would likely seek to take their claims by either force or harsh economic sanctions that sent us back to the stone age. Basically, a reset is national suicide.

But yeah, stay on the gold train people have been pitching since the oil crisis of the 70s. Surely it'll pay off soon...
 
Interest rates aren't going negative. The Fed is set to raise them soon, with more increases on the horizon.
I sure hope so. I would like for interest rates to be over 5%. 10% to 15% even better. The savers need to be compensated for the travesty that was allowed to happen in the past 5 years. Gold would go to nothing if that ever happened, and that would be a good thing.

The 0.25% that they might increase, or decrease, is basically nothing.
 
I sure hope so. I would like for interest rates to be over 5%. 10% to 15% even better. The savers need to be compensated for the travesty that was allowed to happen in the past 5 years.


So you qualify savers as people that save money in a savings account only? Investing isn't saving? Because the last time you could get a savings account interest rate return here in the US of 10% was back in the early 1980s and I can assure you the people earning that rate weren't "compensated" for their efforts with inflation pushing 15% at the time.

And anybody saving money via investments in the stock market has done exceedingly well for their efforts the last 5 years, certainly not a travesty by any stretch of the imagination. If you held tight to an intelligent asset allocation and didn't make dumb investing decisions, it's almost impossible for anybody in the country to have done poorly with their retirement savings as of today.
 
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