Residency?

[IamnotFreud]

No open positions available? How likely is it that a PGY-2 spot would open up during the year? I remember last year there were up to 12 open positions during the May-August period but the Carolina position has been filled and the Arkansas one is well, Arkansas. Anyone know of anything else that might be open?

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[RangerBob]

I would estimate the number of positions that open up would be close to the average number that have opened up the past few years. I don't know how many that is (maybe the 12 you quote from last year is a typical attrition rate).

On the other hand, PM&R is getting more competitive (the NRMP listed only one PGY2 vacancy), so it's entirely possible that there's nothing open. I'd recommend just keeping your eyes out for any open positions (I don't know where one would look for those unless the program posts here) and applying again next year through the Match.

Best of luck,

 

[IamnotFreud]

I would estimate the number of positions that open up would be close to the average number that have opened up the past few years. I don't know how many that is (maybe the 12 you quote from last year is a typical attrition rate).

On the other hand, PM&R is getting more competitive (the NRMP listed only one PGY2 vacancy), so it's entirely possible that there's nothing open. I'd recommend just keeping your eyes out for any open positions (I don't know where one would look for those unless the program posts here) and applying again next year through the Match.

Best of luck,

I really would rather not have to apply through the match again.

Also can anyone comment on which programs had "R" spots for the following year vs. for 2 years out?

 

[Taus]

While I do understand what you're saying about the relative competitiveness..... it's not like only the "lower tier" programs take a lot of DO's. The programs that are frequently referred to as the best of the best (who conceivably have their pick of anyone- ie US MD they want) consistently take a fair amount of DO's. so it's not quite as black n white as you point out. If what you were saying is really true, you'd expect to see the better programs filled w nearly all US MDs. I don't know as much about the IMG part... as its not so readily apparent without really looking at each programs resident list/med school.

 

[IamnotFreud]

While I do understand what you're saying about the relative competitiveness..... it's not like only the "lower tier" programs take a lot of DO's. The programs that are frequently referred to as the best of the best (who conceivably have their pick of anyone- ie US MD they want) consistently take a fair amount of DO's. so it's not quite as black n white as you point out. If what you were saying is really true, you'd expect to see the better programs filled w nearly all US MDs. I don't know as much about the IMG part... as its not so readily apparent without really looking at each programs resident list/med school.

.

 

[Eilat87]

I think that's great bc it will allow me to match into a better program, but for people to continue making it into rad-onc or derm or ortho competitiveness is a little silly. If you look at derm, which has about the same # of spots, it fills over 95% with AMGs, same with ENT or urology.

I don't think anyone is saying PM&R is as competitive as those specialties.

 

[RangerBob]

So again I say this with the utmost respect for the specialty (obviously if I'm going from rads to PMR I have to think it's great no?), PMR seems rather uncompetitive. So it's a tad frustrating when people keep on insisting on that when someone asks for advice. I think that's great bc it will allow me to match into a better program, but for people to continue making it into rad-onc or derm or ortho competitiveness is a little silly. If you look at derm, which has about the same # of spots, it fills over 95% with AMGs, same with ENT or urology.

Btw, there are not enough AMGs that apply to fill all the slots - there were a bit over 200 AMGs to fill almost 400 slots. And btw, I have actually gone through just about every website that lists its residents and the top programs do have and for the most part fill with AMGs. Spauling, Wash U, RIC, Mayo, Baylor (only one DO) etc. are all mostly AMGs. Just saying. Lower tier programs fill a lot of their spots with IMGs-look at Kentucky, Arkansas, etc. etc-a ton of IMGs.

I guess it would be nice if someone provided some objective advice without saying, "well PMR is getting more competitive." That's all.

PM&R isn't competitive as far as board scores go. But with only one unmatched position this year, it was more competitive in terms of filled vs #unmatched spots than derm, radiology, ENT, etc . ~200 AMGs for 400 slots doesn't sound competitive at all, but I don't think the NRMP counts DO's as AMGs in their statistics. And as you know, PM&R is very popular with DO's. I don't know why a DO wouldn't be an AMG (they're considered "Independent," I believe, but hopefully someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

It sounds like you agree with this in your post, but I don't understand why the field being heavily DO would have anything to do with its competitiveness. DO, by the nature of their education, will probably be more interested in PM&R, and on average, probably make a better physiatrist (I say this as an allopathic medical student). If I recall, Mayo was perhaps half DO, maybe a third. But, I wouldn't consider the proportion of MD/DOs to correlate with the competitiveness of the field--most MD students have never heard of PM&R anyway.

I get that PM&R doesn't seem competitive. But unfortunately I think looks are deceiving, especially if you want to go to a quality program. PM&R is actually getting more competitive--every program director I spoke with told me that. Our average Step 1 score used to be the lowest, below even family. Now it's above family medicine. When the NRMP publishes it's "Charting Outcomes in the Match" at the end of this year, I wouldn't be surprised if we advanced higher up.

If you want a PGY2 position, I'd recommend calling program coordinators--they know much more, and much earlier, than any of us. However, the odds of finding a position outside the match are likely to be incredibly low with the "all-in" rule. Most, or likely all, physician (R) PGY2 positions will go through the match. There were at least a few this year.

I know the match isn't fun, but if you apply broadly, rank a lot of programs (more than 10 probably), then hopefully you'll do OK.

 

[RangerBob]

I don't think anyone is saying PM&R is as competitive as those specialties.

It is when you look at total positions and the number filled/unfilled, so if you look at the people interested in each specialty, it may be harder to get into PM&R compared to the other groups.

But to say it's more competitive than the others, I agree with you--that's not something I've heard anyone say unless they're specifically referencing the number of unmatched positions.

 

[Polynikes]

Harvard's PMR chair is a DO.

 

[IamnotFreud]

It is when you look at total positions and the number filled/unfilled, so if you look at the people interested in each specialty, it may be harder to get into PM&R compared to the other groups.

But to say it's more competitive than the others, I agree with you--that's not something I've heard anyone say unless they're specifically referencing the number of unmatched positions.

That's not how you look at competitiveness of a field. The fact that there are spots than AMGs says it all. And for whoever said it's more competitive to go into PMR than derm, rad onc, or ENT, that's just plain silly. Not even 50% of the PMR spots were filled with AMGs. The other mentioned spots fill with AMGs >90%. Again, I totally agree with you guys that PMR is a great specialty, no arguments there. I personally wish I would have found it earlier. But to suggest that it's as competitive as others is silly. The fact that you can be an IMG and get into PMR without much difficulty says how competitive it is. Again, I agree this does not reflect on how good the specialty is, I just find it a tad unrealistic for you to suggest that this specialty is as competitive as others. I can guarantee you that the avg AMG can get into a good program, while the average AMG cannot get into the above mentioned fields. That is all. But I will certainly keep an eye out for positions.

 

[IamnotFreud]

Harvard's PMR chair is a DO.

So? PD at RIC is also a DO I believe, but that has nothing to do with anything. Look at a bunch of rad onc programs and you will see the faculty ranks filled with foreign docs, because rad onc was not that competitive in the past. It is very competitive now of course, so there is a change in the make up of the specialty. Point is - it's important to keep things in perspective. Maybe if more reasonable stats were given more people would actually apply, vs. the whole "PMR is getting more competitive." I have spoken to a few PMR PD's in my area and they all basically told me that as long as you have decent stats you will match at a decent program and was told that it's rare for an AMG not to match.

I don't want to derail this into something that's incorrectly perceived so I won't go further. But I think even for prospective applicants it's important to keep things in check.

I personally even freaked out when some people on the forum kept saying oh it's more competitive bla bla. When I spoke to a few PD's some of them kinda chuckled when I suggested some of the things that were said here. But whatever, please post open spots if anyone knows of any.

 

[Tromner]

Not to pile on, but I think you'd do better judging a specialty's competitiveness by board scores than MD/DO/IMG. You'll be making the same point, but without painting DOs and IMGs with such a broad brush. And in the end, DOs tend to have lower USMLE on average.

Also, as others have said, the reason it is perceived as more competitive is that it is more popular (ie more applicants, be they MDs or DOs). For your purposes, you need an open spot to avoid the match, so this is the number you should probably be worried about. Even if you have radiology scores, it won't matter if there are no vacancies, unless you go through the match and wait a year.

 

[IamnotFreud]

Not to pile on, but I think you'd do better judging a specialty's competitiveness by board scores than MD/DO/IMG. You'll be making the same point, but without painting DOs and IMGs with such a broad brush. And in the end, DOs tend to have lower USMLE on average.

Also, as others have said, the reason it is perceived as more competitive is that it is more popular (ie more applicants, be they MDs or DOs). For your purposes, you need an open spot to avoid the match, so this is the number you should probably be worried about. Even if you have radiology scores, it won't matter if there are no vacancies, unless you go through the match and wait a year.

I have no issues with DO's personally, I think the vast majority are just as qualified as MD's honestly, but I do know there is a bias towards them in the match - per the words of DOs themselves. I don't make the rules. You are 100% correct in your second paragraph-it is considered more competitive bc there is more interest, apparently, (even though the #'s of applicants have not increased very significantly over the years though) but I think it's important to look at specialties in the appropriate light. Using rad onc as an example again (and I have no affiliation with rad onc btw), there are not that many people that apply to it, so while it is not incredibly popular among med students, it is incredibly competitive. The avg student cannot get into it. It does not make it a better or worse specialty either, simply more competitive.

And yes I would love an open spot somewhere!

 

[Polynikes]

Any American graduate can match into PMR. It is nowhere near as competitive as Derm, RadOnc, etc., that being said, it is getting harder to scramble spots bc they fill quickly. If you get a 220 on Step 1, you will get an interview at every program in the country as long as you're normal.

 

[IamnotFreud]

Any American graduate can match into PMR. It is nowhere near as competitive as Derm, RadOnc, etc., that being said, it is getting harder to scramble spots bc they fill quickly. If you get a 220 on Step 1, you will get an interview at every program in the country as long as you're normal.

You are absolutely right that they fill quickly. That part kinda sucks. Although they have been trying to fill the Arkansas spot for quite some time.

 

[lossnwilderness]

I agree with you... competitiveness is based on the number of senior MD graduates. I think in general the match (regardless of specialty) is becoming more difficult, especially if you do not match. However, as a program, if you rank everyone you interview, you will fill. If you interview 100 people, you will fill. The "top" programs don't have to interview a ton of people to fill...and the same applies for the more competitive specialties.

 

[StopStressing]

It seems as though you are very opinionated regarding the competitiveness of PM&R based upon the fact that DOs (less so) and IMGs match into the field. Having been an IMG who interviewed for PM&R residency this year at some of the better programs in the country, I can tell you that the reason many people are saying that the field has gotten more competitive is that I was told during most of my interviews and in pretty much all of my rejection letters that programs received more applications this year than any year in the past, even the very low-tier programs said this. Thankfully, I matched at a very good program rated highly by many SDNers on their Rank Lists and my match class is filled with mostly AMGs. SO, to say that the specialty is not competitive because IMGs can match into residency spots just makes you look ignorant. Please do not think you are better than me because you are an AMG and think that you should be able to get into a vacant PM&R residency spot. You matched into Radiology and now you're trying to switch into a specialty that had only 1 unfilled spot after match whereas Radiology had 65. Also, you say that you really want to go into this field, yet you said in your original post that you don't want to go to Arkansas because it "is well, Arkansas." Beggars can't be choosers. I am happy I matched where I matched and in the specialty I knew I always wanted to go into. Good luck to you and next time try to consider your thoughts before your put them to writing.

 

[Paddington]

I don't honestly think PMR is getting more competitive

PM&R is way more competitive than it used to be. Like I tell people here, it's very misleading from the statistics that show low board scores and a high number of non US MD seniors matching in. The fact that fewer (and now very few) spots go unmatched, and that a lot of people don't match is more telling of how competitive it is.

It wasn't that long ago that if you were a U.S. citizen and a graduate of anywhere you could easily go to a top 10 program if you wanted to in PM&R. No place was all that competitive. The less competitive places were filling with FMG's, as well as a heavy mix of folks dropping out of more intense fields like Surgery and Anesthesiology. It was also - hilariously - a 100% safe backup for failed Orthopedic Surgery applicants. None of these are the case anymore.

 

[IamnotFreud]

It seems as though you are very opinionated regarding the competitiveness of PM&R based upon the fact that DOs (less so) and IMGs match into the field. Having been an IMG who interviewed for PM&R residency this year at some of the better programs in the country, I can tell you that the reason many people are saying that the field has gotten more competitive is that I was told during most of my interviews and in pretty much all of my rejection letters that programs received more applications this year than any year in the past, even the very low-tier programs said this. Thankfully, I matched at a very good program rated highly by many SDNers on their Rank Lists and my match class is filled with mostly AMGs. SO, to say that the specialty is not competitive because IMGs can match into residency spots just makes you look ignorant. Please do not think you are better than me because you are an AMG and think that you should be able to get into a vacant PM&R residency spot. You matched into Radiology and now you're trying to switch into a specialty that had only 1 unfilled spot after match whereas Radiology had 65. Also, you say that you really want to go into this field, yet you said in your original post that you don't want to go to Arkansas because it "is well, Arkansas." Beggars can't be choosers. I am happy I matched where I matched and in the specialty I knew I always wanted to go into. Good luck to you and next time try to consider your thoughts before your put them to writing.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Read the post before yours, it is a known fact that low competitive specialties match IMGs. I'm not a beggar, so yes I would not go to Arkansas, which is indeed filled with IMGs. If you cannot compare specialties please refrain yourself from doing so. Rads had 1200+ spots, PMR had less than 400. Rads filled over 80% with AMGs, vs. less than 50% for PMR. If you want to think IMGs are equal to AMGs, be my guest but we all know that's not the case. PMR only had one spot because it has few spots period, and when you only have a handful of positions, it's very easy not to not fill, especially because IMGs such as yourself will rank every interview they go to because you know you may not match otherwise. My thoughts have basis, yours do not. And if PMR does indeed become competitive, which I'm sure with time it will in the future, you can say goodbye to IMGs matching.

 

[Paddington]

Any American graduate can match into PMR. It is nowhere near as competitive as Derm, RadOnc, etc., that being said, it is getting harder to scramble spots bc they fill quickly. If you get a 220 on Step 1, you will get an interview at every program in the country as long as you're normal.

No question that PM&R is an order of magnitude less competitive than Dermatology and Radiation Oncology. You don't need Honors in 2/3 of your core clerkships. You just need to pass them. You don't need to take a year off for research and publish a bunch of papers to make yourself competitive. In PM&R, they'll be amazed if you did any research.

However, 220 Step 1 for US MD and automatic interview everywhere? That wasn't even the case some years ago when I applied. Don't give BS advice out here, bro.

 

[IamnotFreud]

PM&R is way more competitive than it used to be. Like I tell people here, it's very misleading from the statistics that show low board scores and a high number of non US MD seniors matching in. The fact that fewer (and now very few) spots go unmatched, and that a lot of people don't match is more telling of how competitive it is.

It wasn't that long ago that if you were a U.S. citizen and a graduate of anywhere you could go practically anywhere you wanted to in PM&R. No place was all that competitive. The less competitive places were filling with FMG's, as well as a heavy mix of folks dropping out of more intense fields like Surgery and Anesthesiology. It was also - hilariously - a 100% safe backup for failed Orthopedic Surgery applicants. None of these are the case anymore.

Paddington, if you look at the statistics you will see as someone else pointed, that an avg AMG can match into PMR. And yes I have heard the whole thing about failed ortho applicants. The fact that last year only 19 AMGs did not match is pretty telling, and that less than 200 AMGs applied last year, this year slightly more than 200. So I guess I just don't understand this- are we trying to say that PMR is super competitive now? PMR is derm now?

I guess I'm confused as to what people are trying to say here. when a specialty has to rely on hundreds of IMGs to fill it's not competitive. It's not a negative thing to say about the field which I agree is awsome, but it's certainly not competitive. In the future, sure I think it will get more competitive but making it the next derm or rad onc is a bit insane. It seems like people are offended that someone would say PMR is not competitive. That makes no sense.

 

[IamnotFreud]

No question that PM&R is an order of magnitude less competitive than Dermatology and Radiation Oncology. You don't need Honors in 2/3 of your core clerkships. You just need to pass them. You don't need to take a year off for research and publish a bunch of papers to make yourself competitive. In PM&R, they'll be amazed if you did any research.

However, 220 Step 1 for US MD and automatic interview everywhere? That wasn't even the case some years ago when I applied. Don't give BS advice out here, bro.

Ranger bob seems to think so.

 

[Polynikes]

Sorry, but an applicant who applies for ortho and has somewhat competitive scores will match in PMR. Please stop with this madness. It fills quickly bc there are not many spots available. If all the Radiology applicants had applied to PMR, there would be a near 100% AMG filling of PMR.

If 50% of the seats fill with IMG, it isn't competitive. How many IMG applicants matched in Plastics this year?

 

[Polynikes]

No question that PM&R is an order of magnitude less competitive than Dermatology and Radiation Oncology. You don't need Honors in 2/3 of your core clerkships. You just need to pass them. You don't need to take a year off for research and publish a bunch of papers to make yourself competitive. In PM&R, they'll be amazed if you did any research.

However, 220 Step 1 for US MD and automatic interview everywhere? That wasn't even the case some years ago when I applied. Don't give BS advice out here, bro.

Which programs would not interview a normal applicant with a 220 Step 1?

 

[IamnotFreud]

Sorry, but an applicant who applies for ortho and has somewhat competitive scores will match in PMR. Please stop with this madness. It fills quickly bc there are not many spots available. If all the Radiology applicants had applied to PMR, there would be a near 100% AMG filling of PMR.

If 50% of the seats fill with IMG, it isn't competitive. How many IMG applicants matched in Plastics this year?

Thank you. I don't get why everyone is getting up in arms here. Anyone can see that with only a handful of spots they will fill, period!!

 

[Polynikes]

Why would a program not interview a candidate with a 220 on Step 1? If the rest of the application is normal and not all screwed up, why wouldn't they? Out of 400 or so total seats, and half are IMG, you think there are that many people throwing out 240 that are going into PMR? Look at the match stats dude. You can see board scores as a range on the Charting Outcomes graphs. If a program interviews 80 people, they have to take 220s.

 

[Polynikes]

Thank you. I don't get why everyone is getting up in arms here. Anyone can see that with only a handful of spots they will fill, period!!

I don't know. 400 seats are nearly instantly filled in the virtual flood that is the match.

 

[Polynikes]

It seems as though you are very opinionated regarding the competitiveness of PM&R based upon the fact that DOs (less so) and IMGs match into the field. Having been an IMG who interviewed for PM&R residency this year at some of the better programs in the country, I can tell you that the reason many people are saying that the field has gotten more competitive is that I was told during most of my interviews and in pretty much all of my rejection letters that programs received more applications this year than any year in the past, even the very low-tier programs said this. Thankfully, I matched at a very good program rated highly by many SDNers on their Rank Lists and my match class is filled with mostly AMGs. SO, to say that the specialty is not competitive because IMGs can match into residency spots just makes you look ignorant. Please do not think you are better than me because you are an AMG and think that you should be able to get into a vacant PM&R residency spot. You matched into Radiology and now you're trying to switch into a specialty that had only 1 unfilled spot after match whereas Radiology had 65. Also, you say that you really want to go into this field, yet you said in your original post that you don't want to go to Arkansas because it "is well, Arkansas." Beggars can't be choosers. I am happy I matched where I matched and in the specialty I knew I always wanted to go into. Good luck to you and next time try to consider your thoughts before your put them to writing.

This is kind of ridiculous.

IMG match rates at programs are certainly informative of a program's strength. Come on dude. No need for saber rattling. You can be best IMG ever, but the general trend is...

You know...

 

[MedBronc23]

So again I say this with the utmost respect for the specialty (obviously if I'm going from rads to PMR I have to think it's great no?), PMR seems rather uncompetitive. So it's a tad frustrating when people keep on insisting on that when someone asks for advice. I think that's great bc it will allow me to match into a better program, but for people to continue making it into rad-onc or derm or ortho competitiveness is a little silly. If you look at derm, which has about the same # of spots, it fills over 95% with AMGs, same with ENT or urology.

Btw, there are not enough AMGs that apply to fill all the slots - there were a bit over 200 AMGs to fill almost 400 slots. And btw, I have actually gone through just about every website that lists its residents and the top programs do have and for the most part fill with AMGs. Spauling, Wash U, RIC, Mayo, Baylor (only one DO) etc. are all mostly AMGs. Just saying. Lower tier programs fill a lot of their spots with IMGs-look at Kentucky, Arkansas, etc. etc-a ton of IMGs.

I guess it would be nice if someone provided some objective advice without saying, "well PMR is getting more competitive." That's all.

As a Mayo resident I can tell you we have our fair share of IMGs (Caribbean med grads and grads from European and Canadian medical schools) and DOs (who are awesome and I assume you are not counting as AMGs).

You should remember that most DO residents are much better prepared to excel in PM&R earky on given their extensive MSK and OMT training. I for one as an MD really wanted to be a DO for this reason but chose my MD program because of location to family and fiancée.

I tend to disagree with you that PM&R is more competitive than it even was 5 years ago when I found it as a 3rd year med student.

I think everyone on here is just trying to help not hurt you...and maybe it is just hard to hear that going through match might be best as less spots are available in SOAP and for those to switch into from other specialities. Even if you don't want to hear that right now.

PM&R isn't derm or RADs yet, but it someday could be...and I do believe it will continue getting more competitive for all comers (DO MD IMG)

 

[Iampmr]

I'm an IMG. I got a total of 20 PM&R interviews and I only applied to 25. I got interviews at the Mayo, RIC, UCLA, Wash U and Kessler, etc. So I would say that I am a pretty competitive applicant. I know of many AMGs that didnt even get these interviews. Does that make me better than an AMG? I think so. Oh, and I matched at my #1 ranked program.

I think youre really bitter that you made a poor life decision when you did, but dont hate on us IMGs because we are where you want to be. And you prob wont get a spot in PM&R besides for Arkansas so enjoy radiology!

 

[Paddington]

This is kind of ridiculous.

IMG match rates at programs are certainly informative of a program's strength. Come on dude. No need for saber rattling. You can be best IMG ever, but the general trend is...

You know...

My impression is though that there are far fewer IMG's and very few FMG's in PM&R compared to some years ago. Those spots have mostly gone to DO's, from whom there is a huge interest in going into PM&R and against whom PM&R PD's don't discriminate in the same way PD's in other fields do.

 

[RangerBob]

Ranger bob seems to think so.

I didn't say PM&R is more competitive than Derm, etc. At least not quite. Just that when you look at the numbers of filled vs unfilled slots, as well as the % of students who match into their preferred specialty (PM&R in this case), that PM&R is more competitive in that regard

If you look at Charting Outcomes in the Match, it shows 90% of US allopathic students who's first choice was PM&R matched into it. That's actually not very high. Other rates:

Where more US MD's successfully matched into first choice (less competitive, by match rate):
Anesthesia: 96%
Radiology: 96%
Family Med: 97%
Internal Med: 95%
Neurology: 96%
OB-Gyn: 94%
Path: 96%
Peds: 96%
Psych: 96%

Where fewer US MD's successfully matched into first choice:
Derm: 79%
Gen Surg: 80%
Neuro Surg: 86%
Orthopedic Sug: 77%
ENT: 86%
Plastic Sug: 44%
Rad Onc: 85%

EM was a tie at 90%

I agree with others that a likable ortho surg applicant could probably get into PM&R. But I'd question whether they would match anywhere decent if the PM&R programs knew they were a back-up. Some programs might not care, but most programs I interviewed at wanted people who really wanted to be there.

 

[IamnotFreud]

As a Mayo resident I can tell you we have our fair share of IMGs (Caribbean med grads and grads from European and Canadian medical schools) and DOs (who are awesome and I assume you are not counting as AMGs).

You should remember that most DO residents are much better prepared to excel in PM&R earky on given their extensive MSK and OMT training. I for one as an MD really wanted to be a DO for this reason but chose my MD program because of location to family and fiancée.

I tend to disagree with you that PM&R is more competitive than it even was 5 years ago when I found it as a 3rd year med student.

I think everyone on here is just trying to help not hurt you...and maybe it is just hard to hear that going through match might be best as less spots are available in SOAP and for those to switch into from other specialities. Even if you don't want to hear that right now.

PM&R isn't derm or RADs yet, but it someday could be...and I do believe it will continue getting more competitive for all comers (DO MD IMG)

MedBronc, I have 0 issues with DOs. I think they are pretty much the same thing as MDs in my opinion, and realistically don't see major differences, but there is an inevitable bias against them. Maybe not in PMR but in general. Reason why they are not counted, per NRMP, as AMGs. I have no issues going to a program that has a ton of DOs personally.
IMGs, particularly non-US IMGs, are a different yes and I think it's silly to not admit this.

I personally made no comparison between Rads and PMR, as they are different skills and expectations, etc. in those residencies/fields. Derm is a neutral specialty with a similar # of spots that is highly competitive, reason why it was stated that it's silly to suggest that PMR is so incredibly competitive. Even in something like derm btw, people get spots out of the match all the time. My goal is not to argue here, I'm sure you are all good people with good intentions.

It's just frustrating that instead of actual helpful advice, all people can say is "PMR is getting more competitive." That's very unhelpful. When students have asked me regarding going into Rads for example, I have given them specifics - do this, do that, etc. andI don't say oh Rads is hard to match into and it's a competitive specialty.

You know recently when I spoke with a buddy who recently matched into PMR and I suggested that I wanted to go into it and was concerned regarding competitiveness, they laughed at me literally. Even as one of the attendings with the Garfield drinking coffee avatar has said, "got a pulse? then you can get a PMR residency." This is him, not me saying that. Gutonc, the Heme/onc attending has stated that PMR makes FM look like integrated plastics. Again - these are their comments. So it's frustrating that when I come to the PMR forum to ask for advice, I get all these comments about how PMR is now derm. It's unhelpful, and I'm sure many of you could provide excellent advice otherwise.

 

[IamnotFreud]

I'm an IMG. I got a total of 20 PM&R interviews and I only applied to 25. I got interviews at the Mayo, RIC, UCLA, Wash U and Kessler, etc. So I would say that I am a pretty competitive applicant. I know of many AMGs that didnt even get these interviews. Does that make me better than an AMG? I think so. Oh, and I matched at my #1 ranked program.

I think youre really bitter that you made a poor life decision when you did, but dont hate on us IMGs because we are where you want to be. And you prob wont get a spot in PM&R besides for Arkansas so enjoy radiology!

Comments like this are just plain idiotic. I didn't make a poor life decision, I can certainly have a better lifestyle and make several times what PMR makes for one, so don't be ridiculous. Instead of acting maturely, like most other AMGs on here have, you say ridiculous things, like your co-IMG. Typical. I won't get a spot? Are you delusional or something? If someone is competitive for rads, do you really think anyone can't get a PMR spot? So ridiculous. You made yourself look very pathetic. Figures. No thanks, Arkansas is filled with your kind. You probably matched there. Radiology is a great specialty, you simply couldn't get into it.

 

[Paddington]

I agree with others that a likable ortho surg applicant could probably get into PM&R. But I'd question whether they would match anywhere decent if the PM&R programs knew they were a back-up. Some programs might not care, but most programs I interviewed at wanted people who really wanted to be there.

What folks don't get is that nowadays PM&R PD's don't want candidates like that and don't have to bother with them. Despite their high scores and high grades, they don't want the risk of them trying to switch out as PGY-2's or PGY-3's.

5-10 years ago, it was very different. They would have enthusiastically matched someone they knew for a fact was primarily an Ortho applicant. Their fear of not filling (with the accompanying embarrassment) and inviting the wrath of the Dean was too great. They obviously don't need to worry about that. Also, the people that they were filling with were often folks that had dropped out of other residencies, were much older, or were often FMG's. The U.S. senior Ortho applicants were preferable. Once again, nowadays they are filling much more easily with primarily U.S. MD and DO seniors, with the few remaining spots tending to go to US IMG seniors.

 

[IamnotFreud]

I didn't say PM&R is more competitive than Derm, etc. At least not quite. Just that when you look at the numbers of filled vs unfilled slots, as well as the % of students who match into their preferred specialty (PM&R in this case), that PM&R is more competitive in that regard

If you look at Charting Outcomes in the Match, it shows 90% of US allopathic students who's first choice was PM&R matched into it. That's actually not very high. Other rates:

Where more US MD's successfully matched into first choice (less competitive, by match rate):
Anesthesia: 96%
Radiology: 96%
Family Med: 97%
Internal Med: 95%
Neurology: 96%
OB-Gyn: 94%
Path: 96%
Peds: 96%
Psych: 96%

Where fewer US MD's successfully matched into first choice:
Derm: 79%
Gen Surg: 80%
Neuro Surg: 86%
Orthopedic Sug: 77%
ENT: 86%
Plastic Sug: 44%
Rad Onc: 85%

EM was a tie at 90%

I agree with others that a likable ortho surg applicant could probably get into PM&R. But I'd question whether they would match anywhere decent if the PM&R programs knew they were a back-up. Some programs might not care, but most programs I interviewed at wanted people who really wanted to be there.

Do you really not understand this? Not quite? PMR is nowhere near in this world comparable to derm or rad onc or ortho. Derm has very rarely any IMGs or even DOs and has stellar, crazy good applicants, mostly all AMGS so people are competing with the best of the best. Most AMGs who wanted to match into PMR matched and they are competing against IMGs for the most part, not other AMGs!!! You really think anesthesia, ob, psych are less competitive? Seriously? Boy you are really clueless. This is just sad and embarrassing. I'm sure you are smart but you are not coming across very well here.

 

[IamnotFreud]

What folks don't get is that nowadays PM&R PD's don't want candidates like that and don't have to bother with them. Despite their high scores and high grades, they don't want the risk of them trying to switch out as PGY-2's or PGY-3's.

5-10 years ago, it was very different. They would have enthusiastically matched someone they knew for a fact was primarily an Ortho applicant. Their fear of not filling (with the accompanying embarrassment) and inviting the wrath of the Dean was too great. They obviously don't need to worry about that. Also, the people that they were filling with were often folks that had dropped out of other residencies, were much older, or were often FMG's. The U.S. senior Ortho applicants were preferable. Once again, nowadays they are filling much more easily with primarily U.S. MD and DO seniors, with the few remaining spots tending to go to US IMG seniors.

I don't know how many IMGs were there in the past but I can tell you that many many programs, particularly in the South and some of the lower end programs, are mostly filled with IMGs. Better programs, and programs in better states, are filled with mostly with AMGs/DOs.

 

[Iampmr]

Comments like this are just plain idiotic. I didn't make a poor life decision, I can certainly have a better lifestyle and make several times what PMR makes for one, so don't be ridiculous. Instead of acting maturely, like most other AMGs on here have, you say ridiculous things, like your co-IMG. Typical. I won't get a spot? Are you delusional or something? If someone is competitive for rads, do you really think anyone can't get a PMR spot? So ridiculous. You made yourself look very pathetic. Figures. No thanks, Arkansas is filled with your kind. You probably matched there. Radiology is a great specialty, you simply couldn't get into it.

Someone have their panties in a bunch?

 

[Polynikes]

The field of applicants differs hugely across the specialties, so you can't compare those percentages in this way.

 

[Polynikes]

Someone have their panties in a bunch?

You most likely would have done rads if possible. Your attitude proves as much.

 

[Paddington]

I don't know how many IMGs were there in the past but I can tell you that many many programs, particularly in the South and some of the lower end programs, are mostly filled with IMGs. Better programs, and programs in better states, are filled with mostly with AMGs/DOs.

And I bet if you looked at their class portraits, a lot of those same programs were filling primarily with FMG's perhaps a decade ago. For PD's, they prefer a US senior IMG over an FMG, with comparable credentials.

 

[IamnotFreud]

The field of applicants differs hugely across the specialties, so you can't compare those percentages in this way.

Exactly. When you compare the best of the best vs. AMGs that are competing against IMGs, it's not even close. In order to match at a derm or rad onc program you have to IV and rank far more programs than if you want to match PMR. Look at the # of people who matched into PMR with only a handful of IVs.

It's not hard to understand.

 

[RangerBob]

Do you really not understand this? Not quite? PMR is nowhere near in this world comparable to derm or rad onc or ortho. Derm has very rarely any IMGs or even DOs and has stellar, crazy good applicants, mostly all AMGS so people are competing with the best of the best. Most AMGs who wanted to match into PMR matched and they are competing against IMGs for the most part, not other AMGs!!! You really think anesthesia, ob, psych are less competitive? Seriously? Boy you are really clueless. This is just sad and embarrassing. I'm sure you are smart but you are not coming across very well here.

I'm not denying that most AMGs who want PM&R match into it--I was citing statistics that show only 90% do, compared with higher values for quite a few specialties, and lower values for about the same.

Once again--I'm not saying PM&R is more competitive than those specialties, just that it's more competitive when you look at %matched, %unfilled positions, etc. If you look at Step 1 scores, you can say PM&R is more competitive than family medicine. If you look at %AOA, you could say PM&R is the least competitive specialty. But in reference to %matched and %unfilled positions, yes, PM&R is more competitive than anesthesia, ob, and psych. The statistics are all there in Charting Outcomes.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[IamnotFreud]

You most likely would have done rads if possible. Your attitude proves as much.

Of course. When I called a few programs even they said well sometimes people who can't match into what they want apply to PMR, so make sure you have letters, etc.

Of course I do, but that's one of the things I'm addressing in my PS.

I feel bad for his patients. I think a tremendous amount of empathy is needed in PMR. Patients deserve better.

 

[Polynikes]

Median Step 1 PMR in 2011 is 214. Less than NATL MEAN.

Please guys, this is insanity. Charting ... Match is all you need to look at.

 

[IamnotFreud]

I'm not denying that most AMGs who want PM&R match into it--I was citing statistics that show only 90% do, compared with higher values for quite a few specialties, and lower values for about the same.

Once again--I'm not saying PM&R is more competitive than those specialties, just that it's more competitive when you look at %matched, %unfilled positions, etc. If you look at Step 1 scores, you can say PM&R is more competitive than family medicine. If you look at %AOA, you could say PM&R is the least competitive specialty. But in reference to %matched and %unfilled positions, yes, PM&R is more competitive than anesthesia, ob, and psych. The statistics are all there in Charting Outcomes.

I hope that makes sense.

Again dude, you cannot compare statistics that way. It's as if I say oh Upenn is not as competitive as community program bc Upenn had a few unfilled spots. Well community program prematched all its positions so that's why it filled. So no, PMR is one of the least competitive specialties that are out there. Will it get more competitive in the future? Likely.

But the fact that less than 50% of AMGs match into it says otherwise. You can't compare specialties that way, bc you are looking at it wrong. % of AMGs matching to a specialty is best indicator of competitiveness of a specialty.

 

[Taus]

a few thoughts...

-The general competitiveness level of PM&R does pale in comparison to derm/rads/plastics/etc any way you slice it
-The number of total spots available likely has a role in the limited number of open spots
-There seems to be a significant dichotomy between PM&R programs in terms of quality and breadth of training... and thus the stark differences in competitiveness between these programs
-I'm a DO and would freely admit that a field with a relative over-representation of DO's leads to the feeling of being a less competitive field overall.... but DO's in PM&R is sort of a different beast....as the MSK, functional anatomy/biomechanics and OMT background lends to a heightened interest in and smooth segway to PM&R

-When people talk about the increasing competitiveness over the last few years....as someone who interviewed applicants and was involved in the overall selection process.... there has been an increasingly stronger pool of applicants to pick from in terms of more than just board scores and med school pedigree. I'm talking about a genuine demonstrated interest in the field with multiple rotations, a true understanding of what Physiatry is all about, research, leadership positions and just flat out being good people who "fit" the field. You can certainly call those characteristics soft.... but those latter attributes trump scores and pedigree in most cases (as long as no glaring academic flaws)

 

[Polynikes]

I'm not denying that most AMGs who want PM&R match into it--I was citing statistics that show only 90% do, compared with higher values for quite a few specialties, and lower values for about the same.

Once again--I'm not saying PM&R is more competitive than those specialties, just that it's more competitive when you look at %matched, %unfilled positions, etc. If you look at Step 1 scores, you can say PM&R is more competitive than family medicine. If you look at %AOA, you could say PM&R is the least competitive specialty. But in reference to %matched and %unfilled positions, yes, PM&R is more competitive than anesthesia, ob, and psych. The statistics are all there in Charting Outcomes.

I hope that makes sense.

Dude, this is EASILY explained by the fact the median Step scores are near the bottom, on top of the fact there are only a limited number of seats.

 

[IamnotFreud]

And I bet if you looked at their class portraits, a lot of those same programs were filling primarily with FMG's perhaps a decade ago. For PD's, they prefer a US senior IMG over an FMG, with comparable credentials.

Please please please - do me a favor and go look at the websites of Arkansas, Kentucky and a few other southern programs and tell me how many of those residents are AMGs/DOs.

I think this is all getting out of its original intent because some people don't understand how statistics work and what not, I'm not going to argue with them. Paddington, MedBronc thank you for your contributions.

 

[IamnotFreud]

a few thoughts...

-The general competitiveness level of PM&R does pale in comparison to derm/rads/plastics/etc any way you slice it
-The number of total spots available likely has a role in the limited number of open spots
-There seems to be a significant dichotomy between PM&R programs in terms of quality and breadth of training... and thus the stark differences in competitiveness between these programs
-I'm a DO and would freely admit that a field with a relative over-representation of DO's leads to the feeling of being a less competitive field overall.... but DO's in PM&R is sort of a different beast....as the MSK, functional anatomy/biomechanics and OMT background lends to a heightened interest in and smooth segway to PM&R

-When people talk about the increasing competitiveness over the last few years....as someone who interviewed applicants and was involved in the overall selection process.... there has been an increasingly stronger pool of applicants to pick from in terms of more than just board scores and med school pedigree. I'm talking about a genuine demonstrated interest in the field with multiple rotations, a true understanding of what Physiatry is all about, research, leadership positions and just flat out being good people who "fit" the field. You can certainly call those characteristics soft.... but those latter attributes trump scores and pedigree in most cases (as long as no glaring academic flaws)

Absolutely. I think the emphasis on more important aspects such as interest, understanding of the field is essential and a good way to pick applicants. No arguments there.