Residents: salary/hourly structure

[confettiflyer]

Hi all,

My residency has a fixed salary listed like everyone else. From what I remember, pharmacists in the State of California are, by law, considered hourly (non-exempt) workers.

My offer letter reflected this and listed an hourly rate.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be on-site for more hours listed, my questions are:

a) Should I look forward to getting paid more than my listed "fixed salary?"
b) Am I expected to clock in/clock out to keep my hours in check, but stay after and continue to do work?

Was just curious if anyone else came across this.

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[Dalteparin]

a) Should I look forward to getting paid more than my listed "fixed salary?"
b) Am I expected to clock in/clock out to keep my hours in check, but stay after and continue to do work?

This is going to vary from hospital to hospital. Ask your employer.

 

[confettiflyer]

This is going to vary from hospital to hospital. Ask your employer.

Doh, if everyone asked who they were supposed to ask, SDN wouldn't exist

Anyone else with their own experience?

 

[KARM12]

a) Should I look forward to getting paid more than my listed "fixed salary?"

Seriously? They will not be paying you more than that unless you pick up extra shifts.

 

[SoccerCoach10]

When you calculate your earnings based on the hourly rate, is it about the same as the listed salary?

With my upcoming residency, we have the chance to pick up extra shifts at a predetermined lump sum amount. This will be additional earnings on top of the usual earnings.

 

[Dalteparin]

Doh, if everyone asked who they were supposed to ask, SDN wouldn't exist

Silly me, I forgot why we're all here.

 

[confettiflyer]

Seriously? They will not be paying you more than that unless you pick up extra shifts.

I figured as much, so I budgeted using that fixed amount.

But I can't seem to make the #'s work in terms of the hourly rate they gave. I figure the HR offer letter > what's listed on the ASHP website. Plus, with the legalities of being a non-exempt worker & being on/off the clock in the state of CA, I think I have a valid question!

Just doesn't add up, unless I'm missing some provision in labor law.

 

[confettiflyer]

When you calculate your earnings based on the hourly rate, is it about the same as the listed salary?

Nope, without repeating my above post, here are some approximate numbers:

Listed stipend = $48,000
Calculated hourly rate @ 40hrs/week no OT (4 x 10) = $45,760
Calculated hourly rate at 50hrs/week no OT (5 x 10) = $57,200

Unless they're calculating me at 42hrs a week, then it makes sense. The problem with that is...there's no way I'll be on-site for "only" 42hrs a week unless I straight up lie on a time card, leave the site to do work, etc...

The likely answer is I will get paid at 42hrs, will have to turn in a 42hr time card, and all labor laws I brought up are ignored while everyone looks the other way.

Not that I'm bitching in the least, but if you read my posts on the forums you'll understand why I'm asking this. I wouldn't be caught dead asking my resi director or HR this, it's straight nit picky, hence SDN

 

[ADN1226]

Did the offer letter list your salary?

I wouldn't go with whats listed on ASHP since for me, the website listed 3 positions (we have 4 PGY1 residents - its been 4 for a while now too) and the stipend listed is 7k less than what I will be getting

 

[confettiflyer]

Did the offer letter list your salary?

I wouldn't go with whats listed on ASHP since for me, the website listed 3 positions (we have 4 PGY1 residents - its been 4 for a while now too) and the stipend listed is 7k less than what I will be getting

Offer letter did not list the stipend, but the residency application for 2012-2013 did, so it's up to date.

 

[Protongenic]

I'm unfamiliar with Californian labor laws, but I was paid hourly during my PGY1 in the Midwest. My organization took my annual salary and 'worked backwards' until they got an hourly number (based on 40hr/week).

I never had to clock in but it was obviously understood that I wouldn't be working only 40 hours a week. So on the weeks that I had to work 100+hrs on- and off-site, my paycheck would still be based on 40hr/week.

 

[KARM12]

If you are really concerned, then you should ask. However, it may get you on the bad list quickly.

I worked >40 hr/week as a resident and the only time I got extra money was when I picked up an extra staffing shift.

 

[njac]

My PGY-1 paid me at 40 hrs/week of a "rate"; but no matter how much or how little I worked, I received this same amount every 2 weeks.

It's just how the payroll software accounts for you.

I never once clocked in or out.

 

[confettiflyer]

I'm unfamiliar with Californian labor laws, but I was paid hourly during my PGY1 in the Midwest. My organization took my annual salary and 'worked backwards' until they got an hourly number (based on 40hr/week).

I never had to clock in but it was obviously understood that I wouldn't be working only 40 hours a week. So on the weeks that I had to work 100+hrs on- and off-site, my paycheck would still be based on 40hr/week.

I figured as much, thanks! Gut told me there was no way to legally consolidate labor law, residency demands, and money.

 

[confettiflyer]

Here's my next nit-picky SDN-only question:

If indeed a resident is "clocked" at 40hrs a week to circumvent overtime law, is this same figure then used to satisfy ACGME duty hour standards? Or would residency directors maintain a 2nd set of books tracking the resident's "true" hours?

(part of me wonders if some ex-resident hasn't already gone nuclear and done battle with their program)

 

[njac]

Here's my next nit-picky SDN-only question:

If indeed a resident is "clocked" at 40hrs a week to circumvent overtime law, is this same figure then used to satisfy ACGME duty hour standards? Or would residency directors maintain a 2nd set of books tracking the resident's "true" hours?

(part of me wonders if some ex-resident hasn't already gone nuclear and done battle with their program)

there are varying theories on whether or not Pharmacy residency programs "have" to meet these ACGME requirements.

As someone who partook in an overnight call program as part of residency, I have to agree with that residency director who feels that Pharm.D. patient care requirements are so very different from those of a physician resident and that the rules really don't apply.

 

[patmcd]

there are varying theories on whether or not Pharmacy residency programs "have" to meet these ACGME requirements.

As someone who partook in an overnight call program as part of residency, I have to agree with that residency director who feels that Pharm.D. patient care requirements are so very different from those of a physician resident and that the rules really don't apply.

There is no question that pharmacy programs need to follow ACGME hour requirements (2007 version, not 2011; http://www.ashp.org/DocLibrary/Accreditation/ASDCommuniqueSpringMay2011.aspx)

ASHP is currently working on pharmacy specific standards due out in the first have of 2013.

 

[joetrisman]

There is no question that pharmacy programs need to follow ACGME hour requirements (2007 version, not 2011; http://www.ashp.org/DocLibrary/Accreditation/ASDCommuniqueSpringMay2011.aspx)

ASHP is currently working on pharmacy specific standards due out in the first have of 2013.

Admittedly, I am unaware of three realities of what goes into residencies, but is that even necessary as even at hard programs like UK I've never heard more than 80h weeks

 

[ucrx]

Admittedly, I am unaware of three realities of what goes into residencies, but is that even necessary as even at hard programs like UK I've never heard more than 80h weeks

Maybe not 80 hours of patient care activities or on a weekly basis, but I know of several pharmacy residents (IRL & on SDN) who have easily hit 80 hours. This is especially true for programs where weekend shifts aren't 8 hours and residents don't get a comp day.

To answer the documentation question, my PGY1 program had us document our hours. I don't document this year, but some of our programs do.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

Admittedly, I am unaware of three realities of what goes into residencies, but is that even necessary as even at hard programs like UK I've never heard more than 80h weeks

I know some people have hit 80h if you include work and their personal time working on projects at home.

 

[KARM12]

Time spent at home reading or doing projects does not count in duty hours.

 

[xiphoid2010]

I know some people have hit 80h if you include work and their personal time working on projects at home.

Between actually in the hospital working, projects after that, staffing, I was averaging 12 hr days 7 days a week. About, once a month there is a 20 hr day. What do you expect? As a new resident, the goal is to learn as much as possible.

So don't worry about the shor term reidency pay, as it will be peanuts no matter how you slice it. Set your sights on how to prepare yourself for the best career path afterwards. Think long term and do whatever it takes.

 

[confettiflyer]

I think everyone's reading the intent of this thread wrong. Now I think you all think I'm some nit picky lazy ass looking to game the system I'm not interested in the "just do what it takes" and "go ask HR" or "don't ask your director" responses.

This was just a mind exercise in the legal considerations of residency work hours and renumeration vis-a-vis state law in that it seems impossible to achieve a 100% legal balance between residency demands and law.

That said, seems like the grey area would be project work. A non-exempt worker could theoretically have to be paid per hour, but the other argument is that it's not for "work," it's really for a conference or some other outside venue.

To answer the documentation question, my PGY1 program had us document our hours.

Second document separate from payroll I'm assuming?

To me it's almost akin to keeping separate books. "Show to the IRS" and "Never show to the IRS," haha...10 points if you remember the movie that's from.

 

[Theta16]

I'm unfamiliar with Californian labor laws, but I was paid hourly during my PGY1 in the Midwest. My organization took my annual salary and 'worked backwards' until they got an hourly number (based on 40hr/week).

I never had to clock in but it was obviously understood that I wouldn't be working only 40 hours a week. So on the weeks that I had to work 100+hrs on- and off-site, my paycheck would still be based on 40hr/week.

Admittedly, I am unaware of three realities of what goes into residencies, but is that even necessary as even at hard programs like UK I've never heard more than 80h weeks

Between actually in the hospital working, projects after that, staffing, I was averaging 12 hr days 7 days a week. About, once a month there is a 20 hr day. What do you expect? As a new resident, the goal is to learn as much as possible.

So don't worry about the shor term reidency pay, as it will be peanuts no matter how you slice it. Set your sights on how to prepare yourself for the best career path afterwards. Think long term and do whatever it takes.

Is it the norm for most PGY-1 residents to work >50 hours a week? Or are some of these personal instances the exception?

 

[cycloketocaine]

Is it the norm for most PGY-1 residents to work >50 hours a week? Or are some of these personal instances the exception?

.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Lord, I must have it easy. I rarely work >45 hours per week. And I am at a residency at a COP and the largest hospital in the state. Same for my co-resident and predecessors.

You obviously aren't in a REAL residency and haven't learned anything this year. You should just quit and focus your efforts on Medicaid babies.

I also rarely work more than 45 hours/week.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Is it the norm for most PGY-1 residents to work >50 hours a week? Or are some of these personal instances the exception?

Obviouly depending on the residency. But its pretty common amoung hospital residencies have staffing duty every other weekends, so 48 hr/week minimum. Also need to come in earlier to work up your patients and usually leave after your preceptor. Add in various projects, being on call, etc, the hours can really add up. But is only a year, it'll be over before you know it.

 

[njac]

Is it the norm for most PGY-1 residents to work >50 hours a week? Or are some of these personal instances the exception?

PGY-1 year I worked 10-12 hours every day that I was on service (M-F my weekend I staffed, M-Th the weekend I didn't) - then Sa/Su on my staffing weekend I did 8-10 hours depending how busy we were. We were lucky in that we did 11 on/3 off, and got a comp day opposite our staffing weekend.


PGY-2 was a program that had overnight call. so service days were 10-12 hours (sometimes 14 if on something like neurosurg or a bad day in the PICU) and then usually 1 shift/week for call - that would equal a 30 hour shift and you could leave after noon report the next day (~1pm). Although some preceptors expected you to do topic discussions that post-call afternoon, as it was "not direct patient care". This residency director had me keep track of hours, including time spent on projects, and I averaged 60-70 hours.week with project time.

 

[confettiflyer]

So update on day 1:

We have to clock in and clock out for an 8 hour day and ensure that we clock out for a lunch before hour 5 I believe for 30mins or an hour...as long as your final day tally is 8 hours, just make it work.

Obviously it's not gonna be an 8 hour day.

Definitely not legal, but definitely not going to raise a stink for obvious reasons.

This year is going to be nuts

 

[joetrisman]

So update on day 1:

We have to clock in and clock out for an 8 hour day and ensure that we clock out for a lunch before hour 5 I believe for 30mins or an hour...as long as your final day tally is 8 hours, just make it work.

Obviously it's not gonna be an 8 hour day.

Definitely not legal, but definitely not going to raise a stink for obvious reasons.

This year is going to be nuts

Awesome possum! Keep us posted!

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

So update on day 1:

We have to clock in and clock out for an 8 hour day and ensure that we clock out for a lunch before hour 5 I believe for 30mins or an hour...as long as your final day tally is 8 hours, just make it work.

Obviously it's not gonna be an 8 hour day.

Definitely not legal, but definitely not going to raise a stink for obvious reasons.

This year is going to be nuts

Sometimes, that's the way the game is played.

"I understand the way this game is played." - Tyrion Lannister

 

[confettiflyer]

Sometimes, that's the way the game is played.

"I understand the way this game is played." - Tyrion Lannister

It's just annoying...I have to remember to "clock in" at 8am even though I get in at 6-7, and remember to "clock out" for lunch in the middle of the day, then remember to clock out at 4:30 even though I'm there at 6.

Whine whine, I can probably just turn in a time sheet manually but they want us to utilize the time clock.

more annoying than anything

 

[KARM12]

It's just annoying...I have to remember to "clock in" at 8am even though I get in at 6-7, and remember to "clock out" for lunch in the middle of the day, then remember to clock out at 4:30 even though I'm there at 6.

Whine whine, I can probably just turn in a time sheet manually but they want us to utilize the time clock.

more annoying than anything

That's random...what if your team is rounding at 8am?

 

[confettiflyer]

That's random...what if your team is rounding at 8am?

Well theoretically I can just clock in for any 8 hour period. California law dictates I HAVE to clock out and take a lunch by hour 5 (or 6) or my employer gets dinged (this was the case at CVS a long time ago, our manager would bark at us to make sure this didn't happen). So I can do 9-530, 10-630... hell I can clock in 7:30-5:30 but take a "2 hour lunch."

I'm tempted to just turn in a paper punch card but I think we get unofficially dinged if we don't utilize the electronic system.

I just wish pharmacists could be considered "exempt" as residents but retain non-exempt when we practice as OT rules in CA are generous.

 

[joetrisman]

Well theoretically I can just clock in for any 8 hour period. California law dictates I HAVE to clock out and take a lunch by hour 5 (or 6) or my employer gets dinged (this was the case at CVS a long time ago, our manager would bark at us to make sure this didn't happen). So I can do 9-530, 10-630... hell I can clock in 7:30-5:30 but take a "2 hour lunch."

I'm tempted to just turn in a paper punch card but I think we get unofficially dinged if we don't utilize the electronic system.

I just wish pharmacists could be considered "exempt" as residents but retain non-exempt when we practice as OT rules in CA are generous.

Sounds legal