Returning from Australia to Canada

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applying to oz

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I'm a Canadian who is interviewing for Australian med schools at present. I have been reading that it is difficult to return to Canada for residency training after getting an Aussie MD degree. Can anyone tell me what I need to go though to return to Canada later? Do I have to do residency in Australia first?

Thanks

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Here is my understanding of the available options for a Canadian graduate of an Australian medical school to return to Canada. I am just embarking down the IMG path myself, so my information may be incomplete and I certainly invite others to clarify, correct or add to the information below.

Path 1: Match to a Canadian Residency Program through CARMS

IMG's can apply to Canadian residency programs in the second round of CARMS (www.carms.ca). To qualify, you must successfully pass either the Medical Council of Canada Evaluating Exam (www.mcc.ca) or Part 1 of the Medical Council of Canada Qualifying Exam.

This is a tough route to take as there is high demand for a very limited number of residency positions that are still open after the first round. Being acepted to a Family Practice residency program (especially in a rural area) is a little easier than the in-demand specialties which are nearly impossible.

Path 2: Match to a U.S. Residency Program

This is likely the most popular route back to Canada. The U.S. has thousands of residency positions which are made available to international graduates so the competition for positions is not nearly as competitive as in Canada.

The majority of positions are made available through the National Residency Matching Service (www.nrmp.org); however, it is also possible to arrange for a residency directly with a program outside the match. To qualify for a U.S. residency program, one must pass the U.S. Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE - see www.usmle.org).

For Canaidians, a visa is required to work in the U.S. as a resident. There are two options ... the J1 or H-1B. The J1 is easier to get; however, one of the conditions of this visa is that you must leave the U.S. immediately after your residency is completed for at least 2 years. It is possible (but not guaranteed) to obtain a waiver on this condition by working in a rural, underserviced area. The H-1B visa is the preferred visa as it does not require one to leave the U.S. after your residency; however, this visa is tougher to get.

Once you complete a U.S. residency, if you are on a H-1B visa, then you can practice in the U.S. while you pass your Canadian exams relevant to your area of specialty and secure licensure in a Canadian province. Then you can move back to Canada and practice. If you are on a J1 visa, then the best option would be to return to a provice that provides conditional licensure (e.g. Manitoba, Newfoundland) and practice in this province while you concurrently work on your Canadian examinations and full licensure. The Canadian exams that must be passed are the MCCQE Part I and Part II (www.mcc.ca) and relevant specialty exams administered by either the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (http://rcpsc.medical.org) or the College of Family Physicians of Canada (http://www.cfpc.ca). Provincial Licensure is administered by the various provincial authorities (see http://www.cfpc.ca/chapters/cps.asp).

Path 3: Complete post-Graduate Training in Australia

This used to be tough, and remains tough in the major urban centres (Sydney, Melbourne, etc.). However, it is becoming easier to be accepted to an Australian Residency Program and to obtain an appropriate Australian visa. As one would expect, the ability to take this path becomes easier if one is willing to consider locating to an underserviced area.

Australian credentials are recognized by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada and deemed acceptable to allow one to write the relevant Canadian exams for their specialty (see http://rcpsc.medical.org/residency/certification/img_e.php). For Family Practice, one would have to apply for "individual consideration" with the College of Family Physicians of Canada in order to secure permission to write the Canadian exams for Family Practice. Provincial Licensure would then be through the various provincial authorities.

Of course, one could also likely stay in Australia by obtaining PR status (given that you've probably been in Australia so long by this point that you've fallen in love with the country and grown roots). Medical Practitioners have recently been added to the list of professions in need which has eased the ability for doctors to obtain PR status.

Path 4: New Provincial IMG Assessment and Integration Programs

Some provinces have setup specialized programs for the integration of IMG's into Canadian practice. As an example, Ontario has recently established IMG Ontario http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/project/img/img_mn.html) and Alberta also has a similar program (http://www.aimg.ca). These programs are new, have limited enrollment and are often considered "trials". However, it is likely that over the next several years that these types of programs will become more popular as the need for doctors continues to grow, and provincial governments increasingly turn to IMG's to help increase the number of doctors practicing in their provinces - most especially in underserviced areas.
 
Thank you so much for all the helpful info AusMeds. I'm feeling a lot more relaxed about my potential options if I end up at school in Australia.
 
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applying to oz said:
Thank you so much for all the helpful info AusMeds. I'm feeling a lot more relaxed about my potential options if I end up at school in Australia.

http://www.cpso.on.ca/info_physicians/applicants/rpafactsh.htm

This is a new program that opened up that I'm particularly interested in.. Basically if you practice in the country you got your degree from for 5 years, and are fully licensed in that country you can return to Ontario without writing many exams or in some cases essentially no exams (all on a case by case basis).

If your goal is to become fully licensed in Oz, there are certain schools that offer you a better chance to get a Permenant Residency...I think that this topic has been talked about many times so do a search, but if you still have any question don't hessitate to PM me.
 
redshifteffect said:
http://www.cpso.on.ca/info_physicians/applicants/rpafactsh.htm

This is a new program that opened up that I'm particularly interested in.. Basically if you practice in the country you got your degree from for 5 years, and are fully licensed in that country you can return to Ontario without writing many exams or in some cases essentially no exams (all on a case by case basis).

If your goal is to become fully licensed in Oz, there are certain schools that offer you a better chance to get a Permenant Residency...I think that this topic has been talked about many times so do a search, but if you still have any question don't hessitate to PM me.


Hi RSE! Haven't seen you post in ages :)
 
Hey good to see you too!

It's been a long year, I'll start posting more as soon as it's over ;)

How have you been holding up?
 
As red said (red's dead? ;)), search for info on gaining permanent res. before applying. Now however int'l grads from Aussie schools can get their PR when they *graduate* pretty easily, as docs are now on their Skilled Occupations List (where you get points towards PR for your field). Note though that waiting until graduating means a buttload more tuition to pay!

Basically, you need 110 points to get PR this way, and since May 2004 you can get 60 just for being a doc.

Skilled Occupations List:
http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i_1.pdf

Then get extra pts for Skilled Demand:
http://www.workpermit.com/australia/skilled_demand_list.htm

Take the points test (they haven't updated this form, so pick some random 60pt skill):
http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_test.htm

Since most students here who'd want to stay could easily get sponsorship in rural (or under-served urban) areas, should be no problem to get at least 115 pts., thus PR :)

-pitman


redshifteffect said:
 
pitman said:
As red said (red's dead? ;)), search for info on gaining permanent res. before applying. Now however int'l grads from Aussie schools can get their PR when they *graduate* pretty easily, as docs are now on their Skilled Occupations List (where you get points towards PR for your field). Note though that waiting until graduating means a buttload more tuition to pay!

Basically, you need 110 points to get PR this way, and since May 2004 you can get 60 just for being a doc.

Skilled Occupations List:
http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i_1.pdf

Then get extra pts for Skilled Demand:
http://www.workpermit.com/australia/skilled_demand_list.htm

Take the points test (they haven't updated this form, so pick some random 60pt skill):
http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_test.htm

Since most students here who'd want to stay could easily get sponsorship in rural (or under-served urban) areas, should be no problem to get at least 115 pts., thus PR :)

-pitman

*sadly will be 115 by next year for all of us :(
 
just attended a PR forum this last friday and i found out some good and bad news. The bad news is that to get a PR you need to have your one year internship first (the RMO route that i talked about is still valid though.) during which you are sponsored on a 422 bridging visa for upto 4 years. YOu can apply for your PR at any point after your internship which is 12 mons in duration.

The tricky part then is getting the internship, these are becoming difficult to get especially for you post grads as the number of local students admitted is rising, as well as the fact that you are all in big cities. So most of you will end up applying to either tassie or WA for your internship, both of which give preference to their own internationals first.

There may be a way around this, as for the purposes of registration I heard that it's possible to do your internship in either m'sia or singapore which have an abundance of spots and don't require any citizenship/PR status to hire you. You can then apply for a PR after this, as long as your internship is recognized.

have you heard about this? Most importantly can you confirm or deny? this is really interesting news as it means basically everyone will get a job somewhere (even if not Oz) and can still apply for a pr.
 
redshifteffect said:
just atted a PR forum this last friday.

What about dentistry students? I am applying to Sydney University's graduate dental program for next year.. I know we don't have to do an internship, so could we apply for PR while still a dental student and have a possibility of getting it? thanks
 
OzDDS said:
What about dentistry students? I am applying to Sydney University's graduate dental program for next year.. I know we don't have to do an internship, so could we apply for PR while still a dental student and have a possibility of getting it? thanks
No, U should first be registered as a dentist so u can apply for PR ,what program did u enrol ?
 
OzDDS said:
What about dentistry students? I am applying to Sydney University's graduate dental program for next year.. I know we don't have to do an internship, so could we apply for PR while still a dental student and have a possibility of getting it? thanks

I'm no expert on dentistry, but i don't know if sydney would allow this. I know some other dentistry schools though in their rules allow you to gain a PR while studying and even grant you HECS positions. But as I said, best thing would be to check all the rules. Big schools like Sydney and Melb. tend to discourage this type of thing. Smaller schools like Tassie while not encouraging it, don't kick you out if you get it.
 
I am also trying for dentistry in Australia and from what I have learned I don't think they process a PR unless u prove atleast 2 years of physically being present in Australia as a student .
 
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so what do dentists trained in Australia need to do to come back to Canada and work as dentists in Canada?
 
That is correct if you are trying to apply for your PR after getting into a program in Australia then you require residence there for a period of 2 years or greater. However if you are using qualifications to apply offshore for a PR, then you do not have to present in Australia for any length of time prior to migration.
 
I recently graduated and have a few interviews through CaRMS for anest. It is possible to return to Canada. However I am liking it in Australia and returning will be a difficult decision.

I would gladly stay in Australia except for:

1.) increasing competition for training spots (QLD has increased it's med student population alot in the last few years) + many UK jr docs are coming over because of problems in their country and reciprocity with Aus
2.) 10 year moratorium (this unfairly prevents you from getting a private billing number and should not apply to Austarlian grads but still does if you were born overseas)
3.) much longer training time overall

I managed to get an intern spot this year but it will be exceedingly difficult from now on because of the new medical schools and increased class sizes.

The picture can change from when you start the program to it's finish. When I first came to Aus I thought there was no going back to Canada. Now the IMG programs seem to offer some hope of that. I passed the MCCEE and applied through CaRMS. It is looking like I will be going back so you never know what can happen.
 
Mark,

Training time overall isn't necessarily greater, but it really depends on your speciality. To be a specialist physician here is 6+1 which is about the same as the US (one year longer). The problem is that people either don't want to enter a speciality, don't get into a speciality or don't pass their exams. Also take into account the fact that here you only have to work 40 hours a week and anything over that is charged as overtime. In North America you can easily work 80-110 hours a week, and this though this puts yourself and patients at risk it's considered the norm. If you do the math, Canada is the worst possible deal since you work as hard as Americans, but your residency is still longer. I think you have to decide which philosophy you prefer.

That being said I know lots of people who've gotten through their training in the same time as others (in North America).

I'm not sure if you've seen the latest CaRMs data for 2007, but how exactly is it possible to get a match? Sure there are spots, but for every 1000 people that apply there are only a handful of spots in any speciality program. The overall match for 2007 hasn't increased much over previous years, even with the introduction of the parallel round. Most of those spots are for General practice. Even then the match statistics are not that great.

Unfortunately passing the MCCEE doesn't mean you will be able to get a match in Canada.

Further more Canada is only making the rules harder, not better. Have you seen the 1:1 rule for all the Atlantic provinces? 1 year of service = 1 year of commitment to those provinces. Also if you've been out of medicine or training for more then 3 years, you can't even apply to the Atlantic provinces now, and how long before other provinces adopt that rule (after all we're not exactly talking about the most competitive provinces here). If you get into a 5 year anaesthetic program that means 10 years of service in a place like Newfoundland, so how is that better then the 10 year moratorium (which can be reduced if you go to an area in need) after all you can still work in the public system - this is only limiting private practice.

That being said, I wish you the best of luck in your internship and also in your match in Canada. I only hope for the sake of other future International students you don't simply leave the job if you get a match in Canada, or that you've given them some warning.

*Edit*

Links:

http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml

In the 2007 CaRMS process, a number of residency positions will require Return of Service (RoS) commitments. In the first round of the CaRMS process, these positions will be available to International Medical Graduates (IMGs) only. However, in the second round of the CaRMS process, both IMGs and Canadian Medical Graduates (CMGs) will be eligible to apply for these positions. Those individuals (IMG or CMG) who are matched through CaRMS to residency positions associated with Return of Service (RoS) commitments will be required to sign a contract for RoS to a specific area within the province.

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/OntarioROS.pdf



• Current year graduates must satisfactorily complete during their third or fourth year of their MD training a two-month rotation through each of the core rotations of medicine, surgery, pediatrics, obstetrics/gynecology, and psychiatry in an accredited hospital or program; OR for prior year graduates a similar combination of rotations during an Internship year;

• Applicants must not have been out of medical school, postgraduate training, or practice for longer than three years; an account of all gaps in medical education and clinical practice must be provided;
 
IMG match rate for CARMS is a pitiful 2 percent, US IMGs complain about the 58 percent match rate for the US, but its not that bad considering so many US IMG
s often attend subpar overseas schools. If you have to leave Oz, the US would be the best alternative for post grad training.
 
Redshift, I am not sure how you do your math but it requires a minimum of 2 years post grad work before you can apply to most of the specialties in Australia. Competitive ones usually require 3 such as anest, rads etc. Those programs take 5 years in Canada. Yes, you work hard but you finish 2-3 years faster.

I agree that the return of service contracts are unfair and unrealistic. They are currently being challenged in court however. I wish someone would do the same for the 10 year moratorium.

I will not defend CaRMs but to those who want to return to Canada it seems like the only real option available either than rare outside opportunities. If a recent grad had the chance to go back and train in Canada then I am sure he/she would take it. The odds are not good for returning in general but some people have the ability to make it happen.

The benefits of training in Canada are obvious. It allows you to live and work in your own country. Most training is accepted in the US if you want that option.

Alot of Canadians aren't even bothering to write the MCCEE because they believe Canada is a closed door. There are also too many people posting such stories when they haven't actually experienced it themselves.

The reality of the situation is that for "applying to oz", by the time he/she finishes the current environment in Australia could totally change. Next year it will be very difficult for International students in QLD to get an intern spot in QLD. I could post stories of doom and gloom for staying Aus. Site the 200% increase in med student enrollment in QLD, talk about the fact PR status is required to get on to most training programs, mention the fact that clinical training may suffer because there are not enough consultants to deal with such big increases in jr docs. There are tons of potential negatives when considering the chances of staying in Aus.

My advice to "applying to aus" is that you have to realize that there are some risks to coming over to Australia. If you love Canada and can't ever see living anywhere else permanently, then Australia may not be the best option. If you do decide to come to Australia, then do so with open eyes and make opportunities happen for you. Write the MCCEE, the USMLE and be prepared to go where you can get accepted for training.
 
Canadians wanting to return to Canada will not find Australia to be an easy path, the most probable way is to take the USMLEs and match into a US training program. Osteopathic medical schools in the US are another option for those who do not get into Canadian medical schools, the idea is to complete a DO degree, then enter an ACGME allopathic residency program. Most Canadian provinces accept US DOs for licensure.

Canada is pretty much a closed door to IMGs.
 
Mark,

There is another post where there are a list of specialities that do not require 2-3 of "resident training" to get in.

Also 3 years to get into Anaes.? Are you talking about in Brisbane, or in non metro. hospitals? That's the problem you aren't comparing apples to apples. If you can get an Anaes. spot in Canada it won't be in a major city, you'd be lucky to match to a program in even a major province. If you were to try Anaes. in a hospital of similar standing in Australia, you'd find that it's not as competitive to get into those programs.

Also with hard work most people get in. Even if you have a 50% chance in program a. you still have a much higher chance of getting a job here in Australia then in Canada.

Sure it's going to get more competitive, but there are ways of getting a job. Future students will just have to work harder. What you're proposing though (getting a match and leaving in the middle of your contract) is very unprofessional, and if anyone's planning that please go back to Canada, for a year and take your chances with the MCCEE.

I do agree though, if you don't like the possibility of staying here to do your training, then it's not advisable to come here.
 
What are the chances of matching in the states if one studies in Australia? Is this chance bigger than the one offered by Caribbean schools?

My undergraduate degree is in nursing so I can actually apply for immigration while in medical school. Still I would rather do my residency in the states:
1-Because it's shorter
2- Because I want to come back to Canada
 
residency in the states is going to become quite competitive in the next few years. US MD schools are increasing their class size, osteopathic schools are opening up with very little residency positions of their own, plus with the new UK changes more IMGs are heading to the states, all while the number of spots stays relatively static.

For Canadians there's the visa problem too, the H1B is getting really hard to come by, the J1 requires you pass the MCCEE and get a letter from the ministry of health.

btw congrats markdc on getting interviews in CaRMS, its a major accomplishment!!
 
Mark,

There is another post where there are a list of specialities that do not require 2-3 of "resident training" to get in.

Also 3 years to get into Anaes.? Are you talking about in Brisbane, or in non metro. hospitals? That's the problem you aren't comparing apples to apples. If you can get an Anaes. spot in Canada it won't be in a major city, you'd be lucky to match to a program in even a major province. If you were to try Anaes. in a hospital of similar standing in Australia, you'd find that it's not as competitive to get into those programs.

Also with hard work most people get in. Even if you have a 50% chance in program a. you still have a much higher chance of getting a job here in Australia then in Canada.

Sure it's going to get more competitive, but there are ways of getting a job. Future students will just have to work harder. What you're proposing though (getting a match and leaving in the middle of your contract) is very unprofessional, and if anyone's planning that please go back to Canada, for a year and take your chances with the MCCEE.

I do agree though, if you don't like the possibility of staying here to do your training, then it's not advisable to come here.

Be careful accusing anyone of being unprofessional when you don't know the facts.

I am guessing that you do not have a job and have not finished medical school yet. No body signs "contracts". Outside of rural hospitals, most hospitals are not short on interns. There is no leaving in the middle of a contract. If anyone matches to Canada while working in Australia, they will be leaving at some point in the middle of the working year regardless of how many years they are post grad. There is nothing unethical about someone leaving a position unless they are servicing a shortage area where patients will be put at risk with no doc. People come and go from hospitals regularly because they have a better opportunity or a chance at progressing their career/training. As with any job it is important to be upfront with your employer.

Applying to Aus wanted to know about going back to Canada after training in Australia. I wanted him to know it is possible to do currently. I know recent grads who have matched. I even know of a Carribean grad who has done so. It is important to do electives in Canada, score above the mean on the MCCEE and have good references, CV and personal statements. This can change though quite quickly since policies change with different governments and economies. So you are taking a risk any time you decide to go to a medical school outside Canada and should be prepared for the fact that it might be difficult to get back.
 
Be careful accusing anyone of being unprofessional when you don't know the facts.

There is no leaving in the middle of a contract. If anyone matches to Canada while working in Australia, they will be leaving at some point in the middle of the working year regardless of how many years they are post grad. There is nothing unethical about someone leaving a position unless they are servicing a shortage area where patients will be put at risk with no doc. People come and go from hospitals regularly because they have a better opportunity or a chance at progressing their career/training. As with any job it is important to be upfront with your employer.

Applying to Aus wanted to know about going back to Canada after training in Australia. I wanted him to know it is possible to do currently. I know recent grads who have matched. I even know of a Carribean grad who has done so. It is important to do electives in Canada, score above the mean on the MCCEE and have good references, CV and personal statements. This can change though quite quickly since policies change with different governments and economies. So you are taking a risk any time you decide to go to a medical school outside Canada and should be prepared for the fact that it might be difficult to get back.

Be careful yourself,

I do have a job as an intern, and was required to sign a one year contract. This is standard practice all over the country - please don't tell me it wasn't as I received several different offers, from all over the country. All the contracts were the same. I don't know about you, but leaving half way through your one year contract - regardless of your job is pretty unethical.

I'd like to see some of the American or Canadian residents do it without causing a big fuss. The bottom line is that job could have gone to someone who was willing to fill it for an entire year. Do you know how difficult it is to re-recruit another intern half way through the year? All the training you received will then have to go to someone else.

How upfront where you?
 
What are the chances of matching in the states if one studies in Australia? Is this chance bigger than the one offered by Caribbean schools?

My undergraduate degree is in nursing so I can actually apply for immigration while in medical school. Still I would rather do my residency in the states:
1-Because it's shorter
2- Because I want to come back to Canada
Matching into a US residency depends upon your USMLE scores, if you have excellent scores, you should have no problem getting a residency as an Australian graduate, the average Step 1 score for US grads is 216, so you should aim for this or higher. Some Caribbean schools are good and others are not, you need to do more research into this as far as Caribbean schools. I chose Australia because if things don't work out in the US, I can stay in Australia, whereas in the Caribbean if you don't pass your USMLE exam, you wind up with several hundred thousand dollars in debt and no way to pay it back.
 
Matching into a US residency depends upon your USMLE scores, if you have excellent scores, you should have no problem getting a residency as an Australian graduate, the average Step 1 score for US grads is 216, so you should aim for this or higher. Some Caribbean schools are good and others are not, you need to do more research into this as far as Caribbean schools. I chose Australia because if things don't work out in the US, I can stay in Australia, whereas in the Caribbean if you don't pass your USMLE exam, you wind up with several hundred thousand dollars in debt and no way to pay it back.

And for that reason, I never even considered applying to the Caribbean. Plus, you don't have to carry around this stigma of graduating from a Caribbean medical school.
 
And for that reason, I never even considered applying to the Caribbean. Plus, you don't have to carry around this stigma of graduating from a Caribbean medical school.

I agree, which is why I put a hold on attending SGU, until I hear back from Flinders and UQ.
 
I chose Australia because if things don't work out in the US, I can stay in Australia, whereas in the Caribbean if you don't pass your USMLE exam, you wind up with several hundred thousand dollars in debt and no way to pay it back.

good point. I talked to a loan officer at one of the Canadian banks recently, he said that there's a growing number of Canadians who went abroad defaulting on loan payments.:scared:
 
The North Americans who seem to look down on Australia the most are Canadians. Canadians love to thrash Australia, but in many ways Australia is a far better country, especially the weather. A lot of Canadians insinuate that Australia is racist, when in reality it is less racist than Canada.
 
The North Americans who seem to look down on Australia the most are Canadians. Canadians love to thrash Australia, but in many ways Australia is a far better country, especially the weather. A lot of Canadians insinuate that Australia is racist, when in reality it is less racist than Canada.

Funny that you mention that, but I get a lot of questions from Asian Canadians via PM about the "racism" factor.

My personal opinion is that racism exists, but that it's just as common if not more so in Canada.

Here's an example:
An Indian friend of mine was shocked when he came to Australia...his native food was quite popular here, with many restaurants thriving simply selling that food and it being a well respected food here (along the lines of Italian or Chinese food in Canada).

In Canada he was told repeatedly that his native food "smelled" "tasted like crap" and he was afraid to go out without dousing his clothes in cologne to get rid of the smell. Here in Australia he's actually been able to "pick up" by teaching people how to cook his native food.
 
I never had Indian food until I came to Australia. LOL. It's amazing how many delicious dishes you can make with a potato!
 
Don't take my comments the wrong way, I don't think Canada is that racist, even the more conservative parts have nothing on the Southern States in the US or some parts of Europe(Russia, Northern England, etc.), but its not as open minded as people think. I was shocked when I went to a Montreal strip club with an Indian friend and a stripper commented to my friend "You smell good for an Indian.". She gave him a really good lap dance but other than that comment she was nice to him. I think he commented that French girls smell like cheese. Interracial couples are quite common in Canada, even surprised to see them in a small city like Ottawa.
 
I agree that the return of service contracts are unfair and unrealistic. They are currently being challenged in court however. I wish someone would do the same for the 10 year moratorium.
...
The reality of the situation is that for "applying to oz", by the time he/she finishes the current environment in Australia could totally change. Next year it will be very difficult for International students in QLD to get an intern spot in QLD.

hey mark, why don't you challenge the moratorium in court? :p seriously though, AMSA this year is working with RACGP and some other groups to try to reduce the moratorium for int'l Oz grads to 5 years.

Also, just as we thought OUR year would get screwed but didn't, it's believed that for the next couple years int'l students will likely be able to stay for internship. The problem is really for those who are just starting med now. But we had this same conversation 4 years ago, so Qld Health may find a way to accommodate them, too.

what I want to know though is how a specialist can go to Canada (e.g, an American with an Australian or Irish accreditation), and whether doing that can be a back door into the US eventually. Just weighing up my options for the next 10-20 years is all...
 
I spoke to the licensing authorities in Ontario, and what they said is that as a GP you only need two years of rotations (including internship) in Gen Med, Surg, Emergency, Psych, Paeds and OandG to be qualified as a GP. However even if you have a FRACGP qualification you still must spend 1 year outside of Ontario to be licensed.

As a specialist you can get licensed directly - but that is on a case by case basis.
 
What are the chances of matching in the states if one studies in Australia? Is this chance bigger than the one offered by Caribbean schools?

My undergraduate degree is in nursing so I can actually apply for immigration while in medical school. Still I would rather do my residency in the states:
1-Because it's shorter
2- Because I want to come back to Canada

1. Possibly for some specialties (though for Internal med, including fellowship it's the same). BUT -
You work much longer hours (80-110) vs (40-65) for much less pay. It's actually possible to have a life while training here in Australia, or pursue other interests.

2. Doing a US residency is not a guarantee of returning to Canada. There have been quite a few problems with US doctors trying to practice in Canada, mainly because US residencies have to be equivalent in length to Canadian residencies. So if that is your goal, make sure you can extend your US residency to the same length as the Canadian one. In Australia this is easy to do, simply by delaying your required licensing exams for the required number of years to extend the residency program.
 
what I want to know though is how a specialist can go to Canada (e.g, an American with an Australian or Irish accreditation), and whether doing that can be a back door into the US eventually. Just weighing up my options for the next 10-20 years is all...

I don't think you can enter the US through Canada unless you landed a residency training spot in Canada first. Even then, some of the specialties are varied depending on the college. (ie. Anesthesia requires and extra year + an exam). But I think Canadian residencies may be the only foreign training that gets accepted in the US since both countries have similar training schemes.

Basically as an Aus grad wanting to go back to the US, you will have to land a US or Canadian training position + write all of the USMLE exams. (+ the Canadian exams if going through Canada). I would imagine you would need perm res status in Canada as an American as well! Or the other way is to simply re do all of your specialty training...

However I would still look into it further. The US is different than Canada in that every state often has slightly different rules. I think state:fed government has more power than provincial:fed gov when comparing the 2 countries. So you may find that a certain state may have different rules.
 
1. Possibly for some specialties (though for Internal med, including fellowship it's the same). BUT -
You work much longer hours (80-110) vs (40-65) for much less pay. It's actually possible to have a life while training here in Australia, or pursue other interests.

2. Doing a US residency is not a guarantee of returning to Canada. There have been quite a few problems with US doctors trying to practice in Canada, mainly because US residencies have to be equivalent in length to Canadian residencies. So if that is your goal, make sure you can extend your US residency to the same length as the Canadian one. In Australia this is easy to do, simply by delaying your required licensing exams for the required number of years to extend the residency program.

All I want to say is 'yep'. :thumbup:

Option 2 is so true as well.

Bottom line is if you want to live in a country for the rest of your life, it is much easier to do your residency there.

Unless of course, you are moving from a developed country to a not-so-developed one.
 
Doctors in Northern Canada make half of what their American counterparts earn? That might change, the US Dollar is collapsing, if you think its nonsense, please explain why the Euro now accounts for nearly thirty percent of world currency reserves, while the US Dollar's share shrank from a dominating 80 percent to 60 percent today???? It only took six years for the Euro to gain this much ground, and two Harvard economists estimate that the Euro will replace the Dollar by 2022 as the dominant reserve currency on the planet, and that is a conservative estimate. The second richest man in America thinks the Dollar is going to become green toilet paper in the near future, I would listen to him since he is an "Oracle".

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22232593-643,00.html
 
My dad is a doctor in Canada, and he makes 2-3X what his colleagues in the USA makes. However, doctors in private clinics in the USA makes almost as much $ as he does.

Also, doctors in rural Canada are paid more than their counterparts in big cities usually or no one would want to move there (this is esp. true of family doctors. The gov't will pay more per visit to FM in rural areas).

My dad's colleagues in the USA hasn't had a pay raise for the past 8 years because of the war in Iraq is draining $$$, which has really hurt the US economy. However, here in Canada, at least in Alberta, the pay has increased by about $150,000 in the past couple of years because of the booming oil prices. So this comment isn't true.

Doctors from the USA are moving to Canada these days rather than vise versa.
 
I don't think you can enter the US through Canada unless you landed a residency training spot in Canada first. Even then, some of the specialties are varied depending on the college. (ie. Anesthesia requires and extra year + an exam). But I think Canadian residencies may be the only foreign training that gets accepted in the US since both countries have similar training schemes.

Ah, so it's not the registration that's reciprocated, but the training. Oh well, thought I was on to something..

What are you planning, Mark?
 
Outside of doing well on the MCQEE (and the other Canadian exams), and doing a rotation in Canada during 4th year, is there anything else Canadian students studying in Aus can do to enhance the chances that they'll match back to Canada after they graduate from an Aussie school?
 
My dad is a doctor in Canada, and he makes 2-3X what his colleagues in the USA makes. However, doctors in private clinics in the USA makes almost as much $ as he does.

Also, doctors in rural Canada are paid more than their counterparts in big cities usually or no one would want to move there (this is esp. true of family doctors. The gov't will pay more per visit to FM in rural areas).

My dad's colleagues in the USA hasn't had a pay raise for the past 8 years because of the war in Iraq is draining $$$, which has really hurt the US economy. However, here in Canada, at least in Alberta, the pay has increased by about $150,000 in the past couple of years because of the booming oil prices. So this comment isn't true.

Doctors from the USA are moving to Canada these days rather than vise versa.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/04/10/health-doctors.html
They quote figures for 2004 but for no other year.

The billing system in Canada is much easier than the billing system in the US though and that is a sure fact.

As for the war of Iraq draining money, that is a fallacy.

The money is just spent in different sectors but everyone still gets sick and has to go to a doctor. Perhaps government funding for health care has gone down but the majority of pay is from private health funds to begin with.

As for your dad being a doctor making more money than his counterparts in the US, it would largely depend on what specialty he is in.
 
Actually, the whole war in Iraq was all about defending the value of the US Dollar not destroying its value. In the late 90's Saddam Hussein took payment for an oil transaction in Euros, part of the reason that the US Dollar has been such a strong currency, and a source of liquidity for the US economy has to do with the petrodollar. Certain experts(the Neocons) on the issue felt that the Euro would be a threat to the Dollar and planned to invade Iraq to prevent that country and others from trading oil in Euros. With the anti-War sentiment in the US at an all time high, an antiwar Democrat President that will most likely take office next year, US involvement in Iraq is going to end, the only thing is that most people don't realize is that this could be devastating to the Dollar because many countries will start pricing oil in Euros instead of US Dollars. That is going to have severe consequences for the US economy and is going to tip the economic scales in the European Union's favor away from the US.

China is also another factor with regards to the value of the US Dollar, they are the biggest single investor in US treasuries, and have held up the dollar for many years, recently in China stated that it was moving away from the Dollar and "diversifying" its assets. China is also another factor in the Euro's rise to prominence.

The war in Iraq has actually boosted the US economy, it has not drained it.

I have a lot of friends who work in technology and scientific research back in the states, one of my friends told his colleagues to start learning some European languages quick because to work in the Eurozone you will need to know French, Dutch, German, etc. to secure a job.
 
Don't take my comments the wrong way, I don't think Canada is that racist, even the more conservative parts have nothing on the Southern States in the US or some parts of Europe(Russia, Northern England, etc.), but its not as open minded as people think. I was shocked when I went to a Montreal strip club with an Indian friend and a stripper commented to my friend "You smell good for an Indian.". She gave him a really good lap dance but other than that comment she was nice to him. I think he commented that French girls smell like cheese. Interracial couples are quite common in Canada, even surprised to see them in a small city like Ottawa.

Wow Joe, very insightful. Especially since he received a "good lap dance"
Do you travel much ? Are you from Hicksville USA? or restricted to some prison cell in in the southern states? I hope at least the meals are good.

Racism exist in all countries. That is a given. It is what you do with it. You can wallow in self pity and accuse everyone of being racist or you can show how you too are an equal participating member of society.

In Canada racism is practiced by few people. In fact I think the term stereotyping would be a better word. In Canada, stereotypes occur not because of hate but because of ignorance.So how about we set it right?

After all, believe it or not, myths are based in part on some form of truth..same with stereotypes.

Next time you do field research please choose reputable places...lets say for example Universities and malls? maybe then you could get a great sample size (n>1) as well?

Have a good day
 
I am originally from California, not Hicksville USA, there is a suburb of New York City with the same name, it is also fairly multicultural as well, with a large East and South Asian population.

I have visited Canada on numerous occasions, find the parts I saw to be more livable than the USA except for Winnipeg which looked as decrepit as any decaying midwestern US city, the biggest difference are the capital cities, I could walk around Montreal, Toronto at 2AM in the morning and not worry, there are parts of California where I won't go into in broad daylight. Australia has the same high level of livability like Canada, I have done the same thing, jogging around downtown Sydney at 3AM, again would not do this in parts of San Francisco, especially the East Bay areas like Oakland.

I cannot stand all the US butt kissing on this board, I am from the USA and think it is the most overrated place on Earth, if you are a US butt kisser, I will invite you to my home in Queensland, pull down my pants, put my butt cheeks in your face can you can kiss my American butt. In my mind Canada = USA - Crap, Australia = USA - Crap + Beaches and Sunshine.
 
I am originally from California, not Hicksville USA, there is a suburb of New York City with the same name, it is also fairly multicultural as well, with a large East and South Asian population.

I have visited Canada on numerous occasions, find the parts I saw to be more livable than the USA except for Winnipeg which looked as decrepit as any decaying midwestern US city, the biggest difference are the capital cities, I could walk around Montreal, Toronto at 2AM in the morning and not worry, there are parts of California where I won't go into in broad daylight. Australia has the same high level of livability like Canada, I have done the same thing, jogging around downtown Sydney at 3AM, again would not do this in parts of San Francisco, especially the East Bay areas like Oakland.

I cannot stand all the US butt kissing on this board, I am from the USA and think it is the most overrated place on Earth, if you are a US butt kisser, I will invite you to my home in Queensland, pull down my pants, put my butt cheeks in your face can you can kiss my American butt. In my mind Canada = USA - Crap, Australia = USA - Crap + Beaches and Sunshine.

u gotta realize many international grads from Oz will pretty much have no place to go except the US where there's at least some decent chance at some residency program. there's no internship space in Oz. and basically impossible to go back to Canada for Canadians.... maybe i just ain't sure what you're referring to when you said "buttkissing", but at times you sounds a bit biased
 
That is why I advise students from North America interested in Australian medical schools who want to practice in the US to avoid Aussie programs and focus on US DO schools. I think students who are able to get into Australian programs would be competitive for DO programs in the US. The DO is accepted in Canada.
 
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