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Reviving the online PsyD and PhD discussion (oh yes I did)

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by iryancooper, Feb 12, 2012.

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  1. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Call me Ryan... Mr. Cooper is my dad.


    I'm not dismissing the idea that online psych degrees aren't capable. Not by a long shot. It just isn't up for discussion on this thread.

    Thanks for asking genuine questions... now please feel free to use them against me. :) LOL - kidding
  2. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    That was baseless and mean. I don't want coddling. Maybe I am narcissistic, this is my first psychological/therapy session. I've tried to be polite in every post. I would hope you can see that. You just went childish, let's not go there.
  3. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Also, I gave my ideas/thoughts, ONLY Because people asked for specification. I didn't post my ideas and say: Hey you guys tell me what you think. Please don't confuse the difference between the two. If had posted that way, then clearly the overwhelming response would be warranted. But in the way I posted what I was looking for, it isn't.

    It's like going to the doctor to get advice on something, and him pouring a load of other things on you... to some degree SOME DEGREE, SOME DEGREE, that's ok. And I even said that in my first post... but to the extent that it becomes one group trying to force their views on another... actual, not even... group trying to force their views on and INDIVIDUAL who as you point out - is a guest of the forum... becomes too much. Way too much.

    The fact that I didn't ask for certain opinions doesn't mean I disrespect you. It doesn't even mean I hate hearing them. But when they flood in like (most) all of you have done, it rises to another level.
  4. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    Um, yes, AND clinical training. What you just talked about IS "clinical practice." So now I'm even confused about what degree you really want? Clinical or Counseling psychology is what you will NEED, according to your stated goal here. Thus, yes, you will be interacting with supervisors and you will be seeing a variety of cases. You will get what you need in graduate training. Not just what you want. That was the whole point of my first question, for you to think about how you respond to feedback/opinion.

    When all you want to talk about is what YOU want to learn about, your patients will suffer and your supervsior will get frustrated...much as you have frustrated the members of this forum.

    Ya hearin me, now?

    Good luck with your decision. I think its obvious that you have your answer. We have NOT simply told you that online programs suck. You have been provided with a vast amount of evidence about the logistical and pragmatic complications of taking this route given your stated goals. To ignore this information is ludicrous, as it makes talking to graduate of one of the programs about it quality pretty moot.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  5. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Why wouldn't you want to hear from others who are in the field? You're acting like you know more than people in the field and you expect us to coddle you??

    I do want to hear from others. I have been reading this forum for a few months. A human being gets to a point where they have attained enough information to draw a conclusion. I am there.

    The conclusion I have drawn: Users on SDN do not agree that any hybrid psychology program provides adequate training.

    Now explain to me, since I have reached that conclusion, why I would want to continue hearing it over and over? And why, when I explain that "I got it, that's the consensus" I'm told that I'm acting as if I know more than someone else?
  6. beantownpsych

    beantownpsych

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    Well this long mostly unfruitful discussion. To post on an online forum "reviving the online psyd and phd discussion" and then expect people not to give their opinions (broadly) is ludicrous at best.

    Not surprisingly, it appears that no one here has gone to those schools (or if they have they have decided not to step into this minefield). Seems like a great time to close this thread. Moderator?
  7. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    A picture really *is* worth a thousand words!

    [​IMG]

    Cheers all.
  8. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    I come on here saying "im not sure but here's some schools I'd like to hear from alumni on." You say: "Well tell us some more details about what you want to do." I say: "Well I'm not sure yet, that's why I'd like to hear from these people, but here are some more details that you asked for." You say: "Well, based on THOSE details your plan isn't going to work!"

    Well, I never said it would. I haven't set ANYTHING in stone. I haven't made a decision yet. That's why I'd like to hear from graduates of these programs. You elicit details (that I'm not certain about) of my plan from me only to tell me how my plan is inadequate. LOL
  9. busybusybusy

    busybusybusy

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    I think one of the main reasons that you're having a hard time getting your initial questions answered is because none of the online-type of students are on this forum. Whether that is due to the general attitude they would receive from the majority of the posters due to our (and yes, I am including myself in this) lack of respect for these degrees or some other reason, who knows. I would suggest speaking to the admissions recruiters at these programs and request that they get you in touch with a current student. Any program should have no problem accomplishing this and if they can't that should be a red flag about the level of interaction they have with their students - which I believe you said you were interested in bc you wanted a psychologist to oversee you.

    Also, I have not worked in TX family courts, but I have worked in them in other states. While I was never questioned about my education specifically in court, it was addressed upon my being hired (I was working with a MA at this point). Also, again not in TX, but we were mostly paid through Medicaid for our work and the federal government was highly critical of our education and it was the only basis on which they determined whether we were qualified to be included as payable - this would be something to determine ahead of time, if this is how a position you would want to be in would be paid.

    Finally, and not to belabor the point be made by everyone else, remember that many of us will be your peers or employers in the mental health world and that this will be the general reception you will receive from individuals if you do choose to go the online route. I don't say this so you know you'll has to work harder for people's respect, I say this so you realize that many people will dismiss you completely and not give you a chance I personally think that's a big deal, but just my 2 cents.
  10. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Bean, as I said about thirty minutes ago, I tried to change the title of the thread, but I don't know how. If you could tell me, I would like to. Why would you ask the thread to close? I'm hoping other graduates from these programs google, and it comes up. Hopefully this is a medium that others can use to tell their experience. If the thread is closed, how will they do that?
  11. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Don't be hateful or make fun. I haven't done that. I've tried very hard to be nice and professional since this is my first real posting.
  12. ClinicalABA

    ClinicalABA

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    I have limited personal experience with Cappella and Walden- people who have applied for jobs with my agency have sbumitted resumes on which they listed degrees from these institutions. I did not give these applicants any consideration for the positions. This is not meant to be snarky, sarcastic, etc. It is the truth, and I believe provides an answer the question in the OP.

    As for my opinions, speculation, and advice (even though you didn't ask for it):

    Opinion- Online doctoral program are not in any way comparable with university based Ph.D. programs, and should not be allowed to grant the same degree.

    Speculation- In your case, an online clinical "doctorate" is not likely to be helpful in meeting your needs, and might actually be harmful in that there is some pretty strong bias against them- whether justified or not, having an online doctorate listed on your CV can significantly negatively influence your credibility with employees, other attorneys, and, potentially, future clients.

    Advice- It seems like you have an interest in public policy related to LGBT issues. Even a cursory glance at a news source would indicated the importance of this topic, and it's nice to see that there are people interested pursuing it from a legal/policy standpoint. As mentioned above, you might be served by considering social work programs, MA in public administration, or public health. I think those might be useful adjuncts to the JD.
  13. busybusybusy

    busybusybusy

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    Same thing for alumni.
  14. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Your comments have been blunt, but kind and genuine. Thanks for sharing and being forward.
  15. edieb

    edieb Senior Member

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    People, you're arguing with someone who says he is going to a "top tier law school" before even receiving his LSAT scores.... Valuable energy can be spent on things more productive to our futures, like signing the internship petition below
  16. psypsypsy

    psypsypsy Member

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    Part of me cannot even believe I'm going to respond to this discussion at this point because it seems so pointless. I saw this thread yesterday afternoon and was originally going to post, because I thought I might have relevant information. I know of people who have gone to two of the programs on your list (not well, but I do know them), have a friend in a joint, well-respected, Clinical PhD/JD program, and have a good friend who does clinical psychology research in LGBT populations and has some similar advocacy goals. However, upon reading the thread, and all of your responses to people, I have decided giving you any information would be pointless, as you have been rude, not willing to listen, and disrespectful to people who have tried to give you honest and constructive feedback. I tend to lurk more than post, but have been a part of this forum for years. You have been getting advice from probably the most well-respected posters, and they have been much more kind and helpful to you than was necessary. If perhaps you seemed more willing to listen to opinions, people might post with more helpful suggestions.

    I will say that in any of these cases, finding one or two people who have anecdotally had a good experience does not tell you much. Anecdotal evidence is exactly what the field of psychology is NOT about, as opposed to scientific research and having a basis to findings. In fact, it's quite dangerous. Let's suppose someone comes on, never having posted before, and tells you that one of these schools is wonderful. Now, he or she could be a legitimate student at the school who has actually had that experience. Alternatively, they could be someone who works for the university, googled the school (or keeps track of this website, which certain schools actually do), and is posting under the guise of a student and feeding inaccurate information. People who have been on here longer can remind me, but I do believe this has legitimately happened in the past.
  17. psycscientist

    psycscientist

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    I'm late to this thread, so others have already covered most of what my initial reaction was. However, I do have something to add with regard to doing research in an online/hybrid program that hasn't been addressed. Earlier, you stated that online distance programs would most likely want you to find a local mentor with whom to do your dissertation. While this sounds great, in theory, consider that a reputable professor at a B&M school is likely NOT going to take on a student from an online program to mentor their research - they already have graduate students in their lab that they are mentoring that they have hand picked. What would be their incentive to basically donate their time? Mentorship is time-intensive and you're likely not going to find someone reputable and doing good research that would volunteer to do this.

    Given that most faculty at online schools are NOT successful researches (measured by funding and publishing with regularity in peer-reviewed, quality journals), it would be impossible for them to mentor you to conduct quality research. There is a lot more involved in research than just writing - you also need support in experimental design, subject recruitment, IRB, and statistical analysis and interpretation.

    Given your expressed interest in conducting quality research, these are factors that you should strongly consider.
  18. ClinicalABA

    ClinicalABA

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    I'm sorry you have reached that conclusion. However, I don't believe that there is evidence from this forum to support it. I think many of the posters on this forum are very much in support of hybrid training. I (as do many on this forum) see that future of Ph.D. level psychologist as needing to be more than just psychotherapy, and would support hybrid training in public health, management, law, etc. I do think that many of feel that if such training comes at the expense of the actual clinical training, research, practical experience, and interaction/collaboration with other trainees and preofessors/professionals, there needs to be a way to distinguish the degreee/licensure status/etc. from that of what is obtained from a formal, B&M, doctoral clinical psychology training program. Some of this is admittedly self-serving, as many of us who went the traditional university based Ph.D. route have a personal (as well a professional) interest in limiting access to the doctoral degree and licensure. We got high undergraduate GPAs, high GRE scores, volunteered in research labs or did our own research before grad school, made the cut in program that accepts maybe 6-8 out of 250 applicants, and then committed 7+ full-time years to our clinical training. You'll have to excuse us if we don't want to be lumped in with (or, gasp!, compete with!) someone who gets to put the same initials after their name because they did an online program.

    You have indicated an interest in what I think is a very timely and important topic, and have been given some feedback that the training model you suggested might not be the most prudent means of obtaining the training, experience, license eligibility, etc., that is necessary to meet your goals. Many have offered other suggestions regarding what type of training to pursue. As usually happens on online forums, people get a little more "pissy" than they would get in person. Whatever- if you want to benefit from such a forum, you have to get past the ad hominen stuff.
  19. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    I haven't dismissed the idea of the MSW and I think there is one law school that offers a MSW/JD degree. I don't mind you sharing your thoughts, you were polite and sincere. Thanks for letting me know how things are done with your company as well.
  20. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    More hate. Does this make you feel like a bigger person?
  21. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    I has, it was Capella. The schools posting as if they were a student. I read the entire forum, it was very long. I feel as though maybe you have skimmed but not read every post. You would see that I have gratefully accepted the negative, but relevant, comments from about ten posters. No one has said anything good about the schools I listed. I'm ok with that. It really makes me think about the uphill battle I'd have in real life.

    Most importantly from you: Please tell me where I have been mean or rude. I want to fix it if I have. And if you say I have, and really mean it, please do tell me where.
  22. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    This is good advice, and something I had wondered, but not really focused on. I probably should more. In the beginning, my initial thought was that one advisor could easily be from UTD (my masters degree). We have one political scientist that is a proponent of same-sex rights and that family model. She would also know my research ability from my masters thesis and possibly be willing. Thanks for raising this issue.

    If you think I've been rude at all, please let me know.

    Ryan
  23. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Thanks for the reply. You could do well in conflict resolution and mediation.
  24. psycscientist

    psycscientist

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    Keep in mind that in psychology, typically the committee is comprised of psychologists. Your dissertation chair needs to be an expert in what your dissertation topic ultimately will be (and they should be a psychologist - otherwise how are you going to conduct psychological research?). You will not be conducting political science research. You should be conducting empirical research on a psychological phenomenon. This is much different than writing something on policy, which typically does not involve original data collection or analysis. I think you need to do more research into what a good psychology dissertation SHOULD be. From your posting, it seems like you don't have a good understanding about what is involved in research, and you may find that the reality does not match the picture in your head of what you would like to be doing.
  25. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    You are right, at this point I don't (at least not anything beyond PolySci). My understanding of the differences are limited. I'm at the very first steps to determining where OR IF I want to travel the psych route. However, one thing that confused me, political scientists do indeed collect original data and analysis. Maybe you mean they are different in form? That I have no clue. Having a less-than dissertation was something I worried about, but since my interests - research wise - gear less toward general or clinical psychology, and more toward a specific psychological evaluation of a topic, I had hoped it'd be possible to bring in one committee member from either law or policy... again just the early stages and wondering out loud.
  26. busybusybusy

    busybusybusy

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    Something else to think about: Although Texas doesn't require APA accreditation in order to get licensed, it does require regional accreditation, so double check that for all of the institutions. I don't remember your original post, but I believe there was atleast one that you said was not regionally accredited. Also, Texas does require you to have two full years of full-time post-doctoral supervised experience in order to get licensed. In order to this, you will either have to do a formal post-doc (which will would be unlikely since these are hard for people coming from accredited programs to get), get a formal job that does not require licensure and provides supervision (The only ones I personally know of are for the BOP or VA, who don't hire people coming from non-APA accredited programs - there may be others, I just don't know) or pay for supervision (which can get very expensive). I'm not sure if you've looked at the website of the ASPPB yet or not (here it is: www.asppb.org), but you can look up the erxact requirements for licensure in each state by viewing the jurisdictional handbook for each. Also, there is a PDF on their website that tells you the licensure rates for all doctoral programs, which would be useful to know for each of the programs you've mentioned.
  27. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Thanks for this Busy... I was otp with the Board again today asking more questions (about Texas). And yes, the one you remember with no RA was CalSouthern. It's also online, and like most of you guys on here, I would never recommend someone attempt clinical psychology with NO interaction at all... thats ludicrous in my mind. Texas does require two years like you say, one during and one after, unless you are I/O only, in which case it's SUPER flexible. Thats the same website I used to verify if I read the Texas Statutes properly LOL. I have looked at that licensure rates pdf too (I actually have it printed here in my desk drawer) and it's (as expected) not impressive at all. I have not made any decisions, but likely if I were to entertain the thought of ever wanting to do clinical psychology, I would go with B&M (contrary to the implication that I'm refusing to take advice LOL). ... but to anyone still reading, chime in if you have been to any of the schools! I'd still like to gain knowledge on how they operate.

    Thanks for all this good info Busy!
  28. Pragma

    Pragma

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    You can't have a sensible conversation with someone who misrepresents themself, pprovides compulsive "feedback" to your response, and admits they are trying to get hits so the thread comes up on google.
  29. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    LOL. Misrepresents? Wow. I said I hope that students of those universities find this thread and join in to share their experience.
  30. Jonathan Arthur

    Jonathan Arthur

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    The comment that, in court, lawyers would scrutinze where you went to school is a good one. As a licensed clinician, I recently appeared in juvenile court on behalf of a clinet seeking to regain custody of her children. Because my school and license were well-regarded, the lawyers were able to quickly move on to substantive issues. If it had been otherwise, I believe the main issues would not have been addressed as readily. Hope this helpful.
  31. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Thank you for sharing this Jonathan. I may PM you to ask more specific questions if you don't mind. :)
  32. Pragma

    Pragma

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    Misrepresents means saying things like "we" when talking about lawyers when you don't have a law degree. This thread is a waste of time and only feeds the undesireable traits.
  33. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    That sounds nit-picky but If I did say that (you didn't mention a single post) it might be because I work at a law firm? It wasn't to misrepresent myself as a lawyer... I think I may have made that clear when I said I just did law school applications. Not sure how much of this thread you've read, but I made that clear. Stop acting like jerk. If I've offended you I didn't mean to.
  34. Psychadelic2012

    Psychadelic2012 PhD Student

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    I agree. Let's stop feeding the wildlife.
  35. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Psychadelic and Pragma, why are the two of you still on this thread if you think it is a waste of your time? I'm still getting some relevant posts from other members in between your complaints, but don't understand why you remain on here if you don't want to... Every time you post I get an email and hope it something constructive, I click the link and find you wining at me... Let others post who don't mind doing so, and yall just go about your business.
  36. ClinicalABA

    ClinicalABA

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    Watch it- you're coming across as a little insincere with the "because I work at a law firm" statement. In your OP you write:

    which turns out not to be true (and don't try to say that by "law student" you just meant you are interested in law and read about it- you know very well that the common definition of "law student" = someone enrolled in law school). I, and others, have given you some respectful responses. I think now you're just trolling.
  37. wigflip

    wigflip

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    Of possible interest to OP or anyone interested in how law/policy intersects with LGBT issues, from a post I made on a previous thread:

    UCLA social psychologist Letitia Anne Peplau (PhD Harvard) was a key expert witness in CA's Prop 8 trial. Filming of the trial wasn't permitted, but the trial was reenacted--not in condensed movie-of-the-week style, but with actors reading the trial transcripts in their entirety as the "script." Dr. Peplau was portrayed by Adrienne Barbeau (yes, of John Carpenter's The Fog and Escape From New York). Watch Dr. Peplau's verbatim testimony here (it's mostly preliminaries prior to 7:42 when she delineates her four expert opinions):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlSqnB4QANg

    Note expert witness Dr. Peplau is "vetted" as an expert worthy of testifying: she has a Harvard PhD (in social, not clinical psych), with a long university career and >100 publications.

    On another note...Smith College appears to have some kind of low residency PhD (if social work isn't completely off the table for OP). I know at least one of their students is doing an LGBT-related diss.
  38. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    I didn't mean to be insincere at all. I am a law student. My bachelors is called "legal studies" and my masters is called "political science and constitutional law." It can be googled. I've taken torts, contracts, business, criminal, civil, research and writing, on and on... Why am I giving my resume?

    You particularly have been very respectful to me, and I hope I have been to you too. But someone (the earlier poster) just being mean, warrants me standing up for myself as well. I know I'm the new guy, but I don't like being talked down to, and that's why I have tried to not do that to the users on here.

    I don't know what trolling means. If there is a moderator moderating (whats the right word?), please let me know if I've been dishonest, rude, or insincere to anyone. I really am hoping other non traditional students join SDN and offer their experience. Thats why I joined and posted.
  39. wigflip

    wigflip

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  40. ClinicalABA

    ClinicalABA

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    Ah... the ultimate Catch-22. If you are, in fact trolling, and I reply to this with an explanation of what trolling is, you are likely be eligible for some sort of "Troll of the Year" award. However, if you really don't know what it means, not explaining is likely to lead to more "trolling-like" behavior. Rather than engage in further "Vizzini" logic, I will simply choose not to respond, as not drinking the poisoned wine, even if you're certain it's in fact not poisoned, is always the safest best option.

    Also- by almost all accepted definitions, you're a "college student", or "undergrad", or maybe "pre-law" student. "Law student" will almost always be taken to mean that you are enrolled in law school. If you are not enrolled in law school, calling yourself a "law student" runs the risk of people thinking you are being deceptive or insincere.
  41. wigflip

    wigflip

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    But what if you've spent years building up an immunity to iocane powder?? :laugh:
  42. O Gurl

    O Gurl

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    You are not likely to find these students at SDN for many of the reasons already covered by Busybusybusy. Given the tone that this thread has taken, the exhaustive lengths members have gone through to offer you our best feedback, and the obvious stand-off that has now occurred, wouldn't it make sense to just contact the programs directly in order to get linked up with current students?

    Not to sound cynical, but it almost seems as though you are hoping for proponents of online/distance doctoral programs to suddenly come out of the wood-works and take on the mean, elitist B&M students at SDN. What purpose would that serve?
  43. ClinicalABA

    ClinicalABA

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    ;)
  44. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Thanks Wig... I had remember seeing a JD MSW but couldn't remember where I saw it. I think this may have been it. And thanks for the definition - I had never heard of that. I certainly hope I'm not that. :(

    Thanks again for the suggestion... I've added that to my list to call tomorrow. (but I will be honest, for some reason I hate California...LA in particular! LOL... not sure why, most people love it there.
  45. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    It does... I should have said pre-law or legal studies or conlaw or something else. Especially since I'm now under a microscope.
  46. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    No, I don't expect they will. I expect that they already know the climate on SDN... not that it's as it should be. I have contacted some and asked (I've said that already) but I'm waiting on my list. I got one of them about an hour or so ago. It doesn't reflect many, my guess is just some that have opted to be included? I've never been asked so I'm not sure how that works. But I doubt any will come take on the B&M bad guys lol. The majority of you, though you are clear about your position, have been plenty polite. I'll keep on those lists though. If they don't send em, that IS a red flag.
  47. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Not sure about years, but I've spent at least three pages becoming immune.
  48. wigflip

    wigflip

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    I got the impression that the MSW/JD combined program was pretty common, but maybe that's just because the two major universities in LA had them (still do, I think). Again, if LA is out, Smith's low residency social work doctorate might be an option. But I would think that the Williams Institute connection at UCLA would be a pretty valuable opportunity. LA is huge and very heterogeneous (no pun intended), so it's easy to get a poor impression if you haven't spent a lot of time there or confined yourself to a single area. And there are lots of queer folks who don't dig "WeHo," so if that's you're hesitation, you'd have plenty of good company.
  49. beantownpsych

    beantownpsych

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    :) :)
  50. iryancooper

    iryancooper Ph.D. Student

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    Cambridge, MA
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    LMAO... If I fell in love with the program I could stand living there for a five or six years. You're probably right... my time there was 2 times a year for maybe three years, but always on business. I never saw anything other than downtown and china town. I never saw the gayborhood or met any fellow rainbow committee members. Perhaps if I went to visit again I might like it more?

    Did you mean Smith College? I just looked it up but have never seen it before. Seems interesting though. Drexel is the joint program I'm interested in above all. Their law program isn't ABA yet, but everyone knows it will get it. They are APA accredited and the advisor I spoke to in Houston last year had a boyfriend doing the law/psych program.
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