Rocky Vista "Turmoil"?

[smg111622]

A lot of people are complaining about Rocky Vista on SDN. This worries me as I really want to go there because 1) Its close to home 2) The tour was exciting 3) I want to be a DO. However, now I am not so sure. Can anyone give me advise that is based on evidence (try to limit personal bias)?

Thanks Much!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[jkmph]

While I can't provide much insight into the state of affairs at RVU, I can tell you that I intentionally and specifically did not apply there.

 

[smg111622]

May I ask why not?

 

[scummie]

There are a ton of threads on this topic. Use the search feature to find them. The main issue of controversy with this school is its "for-profit" status.

 

[Melicopter]

I did not apply here because I am unwilling to fund my education with private loans. The supposed issue with licensing from the state is concerning, and if I wanted to apply here, I would research that a little more.

 

[bioteach]

May I ask why not?

I uprooted from Colorado and moved to the midwest to attend medical school because I was waitlisted at CU and I chose specifically to NOT apply to RVU.

I recommend you read all of the threads regarding RVU in both the pre-osteo and Osteo student forums. It'll take awhile, but its worth it. Some people aren't concerned about it (for-profit status, president firing the board of trustees and replacing them with his wife and lawyer, etc., inability to get federal loans), but others choose not to apply as a result. Just make an informed decision based on your own terms.

 

[swamprat]

I think no federal loans is a really big downside(i think until they graduate their first class?) although I know there seem to be other issues as well.

 

[iatros]

ok... dont let all these "experts" dissuade you... i'm betting most people on here have no idea what "for profit" actually means. all the naysayers just work each other up and get all excited over nothing. the tax status of the school in no way affects the quality of the institution. RVU is not trying to sell a medical degree. flexner is not applicable.

I interviewed at RVU and i was very impressed. the facilities were very impressive, no expenses spared (no crappy state funding- another benefit of "for profit"). labs were awesome- state of the art, auditoriums and class rooms are very accomodating to the digital generation. the faculty have a diverse background and all of them have taught at other medical schools... some for 15 to 20 years or more. the faculty basically built this curriculum and have a very personal investment in the success of the students.

There are a number of private loans offered to medical students all of which apply to RVU medical students. additionally, RVU offers loans to their students which are competitive with fed loans. When the first class graduates and the accred status of the school is upgraded, fed loans will be available to students.

as far as all the excitement that took place earlier this year... i say, who cares! its a new school and they have had to work some things out. from what i've personally seen, i think the school is on the right track.

in order to be perfectly fair, i will now go discuss my concerns. what remains to be seen is the 3rd and 4th year rotations. since this is a new school, no one has done their 3rd and 4th year yet and there is no quantifiable data (board scores, res matches, etc) to really illustrate how good the school is. BUT considering how many hospitals are located in the denver metro area, i'm sure they will have some good rotation sites AND considering the academic caliber of students i've met there (and the stiff selection process) i'm sure they will have no prob passing boards.

bottom line- dont let the ignorant idiots and their attitudes of superiority bring you down. this school is legit.

 

[Longshanks]

ok... dont let all these "experts" dissuade you... i'm betting most people on here have no idea what "for profit" actually means. all the naysayers just work each other up and get all excited over nothing. the tax status of the school in no way affects the quality of the institution. RVU is not trying to sell a medical degree. flexner is not applicable.

Then why has every other founded medical school been "non-profit"? It should matter, and IMHO a "for profit" school won't be acting in the best interest of its students, hence why I will never apply there.

 

[jkmph]

bottom line- dont let the ignorant idiots and their attitudes of superiority bring you down. this school is legit.

There was a reason I and the other posters didn't specify why we didnt apply. People like you.

We're all completely ignorant idiots with attitudes of superiority. We have no idea what we're talking about, why we didn't apply and thank you for setting us strait.

 

[DocHomer]

This thread will probably degenerate into a flame war, but I just wanted to try to provide some balance anyway.

It behooves the administration of any school, even for-profit ones, to act in the best interests of the students. Otherwise, the school will not last for too long. Therefore, I believe that the students at RVU can and probably will get a good education. There are many, many graduates from the the big Caribbean schools who would agree. In fact, RVU has an advantage over these schools because it has to answer to a governing body unlike the Caribbean medical schools.

Nevertheless, the biggest issue with RVU is the public perception of for-profit schools. Well-respected institutions of higher learning have traditionally been non-profit organizations and are dedicated to education and research. As a result, RVU's for-profit status definitely damages the reputation of the osteopathic profession to a certain degree. It is also the only medical school in the United States with such status. I am a purist in this regard, and that is one of the reasons why I didn't apply to RVU or to Caribbean schools.

Finally, any new school has to work out the kinks which partially explains the issues at RVU. This is another reason why I would not attend this school.

For what it's worth, I spoke to a couple of osteopathic physicians about RVU. They told me that you'd be surprised how far one can go based on his performance alone. So in the end, it will come down to the individual.

 

[Lokhtar]

I've read the Flexner report. I will never go to a for-profit medical school.

It's not a coincidence that out of or so 150 medical (MD & DO) schools in the country, 149 are non-profit. And it's not a coincidence that universities are non-profit either.

 

[DocHomer]

I've read the Flexner report. I will never go to a for-profit medical school.

It's not a coincidence that out of or so 150 medical (MD & DO) schools in the country, 149 are non-profit. And it's not a coincidence that universities are non-profit either.

While I agree with you about not attending a for-profit school, Flexner was a long time ago and the conditions in which DO schools operated back then were vastly different.

 

[not so calm now]

I'd just like to know why they have a .org domain. Why not .edu or alternatively, .com if they're for-profit? I was under the impression .org was non-profit.

 

[Lokhtar]

While I agree with you about not attending a for-profit school, Flexner was a long time ago and the conditions in which DO schools operated back then were vastly different.

And many MD schools were pretty bad too. It's not a DO school thing vs. a MD school thing. But an MD school cannot be granted accreditation if it is for-profit. It's one of the requirements of accreditation. The DO licensing body needs to do that ASAP.

 

[MSUSpartan642]

And many MD schools were pretty bad too. It's not a DO school thing vs. a MD school thing. But an MD school cannot be granted accreditation if it is for-profit. It's one of the requirements of accreditation. The DO licensing body needs to do that ASAP.

Though I have disagreed with Lokhtar on a variety of topics I definitely agree with you on the whole for-profit/non-profit issue for DO schools.

 

[antapolar]

Then why has every other founded medical school been "non-profit"? It should matter, and IMHO a "for profit" school won't be acting in the best interest of its students, hence why I will never apply there.

I am not trying to side with anyone here, but here are some of my opinion regarding RVU.

Firstly, I don't see why 'for profit' school won't act in the best interest of its student? As I posted before, if you want to think of the school as a corporate company, won't they want to ensure their 'product' (ie students) is well made to help them advertise themselves and thus earn more money? Every school will need to operate with money, so simply arguing that their way to obtaining the resources is different, to me, is not a good indicator on whether it care about their students more/less.

That being said, I interviewed at RVU last year. While I do agrees with the fact that facilities is new, well made, the faculty does seem great, and the school may have some potentials (but then, so does any of the new schools). I don't believe that its there yet. Perhaps in another few years after students actually finished 3rd or 4th year. I personally would not want to be, and don't see why ppl would want to be the guinea pig of a new school's system. So although I was accepted last year, I also withdrawl the offer.

 

[chocolaterie]

I used to work for a for profit school (publicly traded). I quit after 9 months of working there because I felt the school was extremely unethical. The counselor's were more interested in selling the school then they were about helping the student. This may not be the case at RVU. What I can tell you is that my administration had a difficult time balancing what shareholders wanted and what students wanted. The two bodies can not always be satisfied. One group wants the best education possible, while the other wants a bigger dividend. Sometimes it is possible to do both.... but sometimes it's not. I would recommend taking a look at other for profit schools.. such as University of Phoenix. Again I want to say this may not be the case at RVU.

After I quit, I received an offer to work for a state funded college. I have been here for almost 3 years. It's a place that I can say I am proud to work for. But after my experience with the first school, I will never go to a for-profit school. I would not recommend it to anyone that I cared about. But this is my own opinion. Can you get a great education there? I believe that's up to you. You know your own personal situation better than anyone else on this forum. For me, I am stuck in AZ, which means if I don't get in this year, I will reapply next year... and god forbid hopefully not the year afterward. If RVU is the only feasible option for you, you're okay with private loans (do lots of research on this, some of those interest rates are killer), you've done your research regarding the school's history (what major decisions had to be made, why were they made, and is there a trend in the way they make decisions)... I think you will come to a conclusion. You'll realize what fits you best, and if RVU is the best fit - then go for it. But only make this decision by doing research and becoming informed. Don't just rely on opinions.

 

[csmittyB]

Harvard has an endowment of over 26 billion dollars yet still charges its medical students ~$40,000/year in tuition. UCSF has no instate tuition, but it charges its students over $20,000 dollars in "fees". RVU gets blasted for admitting that it is a for profit school. Kid yourselves all you want, all schools are for profit, whether they are asking for handouts like a bum in front of walmart or admitting that they want to make money. If a school doesn't make money it cannot operate.

 

[MSSM2013]

Harvard has an endowment of over 26 billion dollars yet still charges its medical students ~$40,000/year in tuition. UCSF has no instate tuition, but it charges its students over $20,000 dollars in "fees". RVU gets blasted for admitting that it is a for profit school. Kid yourselves all you want, all schools are for profit, whether they are asking for handouts like a bum in front of walmart or admitting that they want to make money. If a school doesn't make money it cannot operate.

except in harvard and UCSF, those money goes to teaching and research. In RVU the money goes to funder's pocket.

 

[bioteach]

the facilities were very impressive, no expenses spared (no crappy state funding- another benefit of "for profit").

Who do you think covers that "no expense was spared" bit? Really, that's a good thing? I think I'll take my $23K tuition + crappy state funding facilities over a "no expense spared" + $40K tuition. The first two years are really all about you, a book and some powerpoint handouts. Don't need much technology for that.

 

[scpod]

While I don't believe that for-profit schools are the way to go, they are also not the death of osteopathic medicine as we know it. In fact, RVU is probably a lot more efficient with tuition dollars than most stste-supported schools. Government-supported schools are inherently inefficient. They have a budget that is based on a contribution from the state as well as other revenue sources. They tend to use all the money in their budget, because if they don't spenfd it, it will get cut from the next year. When their budget does get cut they simply spend less by cutting out things that they really didn't need in the first place. OTOH, for-profit institutions are constantly looking for ways to get the same thing down while saving dollars at the same time. That's not a bad thing, especially if you are producing a quality product.

We have yet to see if RVU will supply a quality product (graduate). When the bard scores come out and the matches take place there will be a way to truly quantify the doctors they are producing. Until then you can debate away all you want but it's really a waste of time and effort, IMHO. Nothing you can say will make it go away and it's not likely going to affect you in any way if you coose to attend another school. However, RVU graduates will soon be your colleagues. Rather than spend so much time griping about how horrible this one institution is, why not spend more time on the real issues affecting osteopathic medicine today? Spend some effort on graduate medical education quality or declining reimbursements that affect every single one of us.

 

[Lokhtar]

Harvard has an endowment of over 26 billion dollars yet still charges its medical students ~$40,000/year in tuition. UCSF has no instate tuition, but it charges its students over $20,000 dollars in "fees". RVU gets blasted for admitting that it is a for profit school. Kid yourselves all you want, all schools are for profit, whether they are asking for handouts like a bum in front of walmart or admitting that they want to make money. If a school doesn't make money it cannot operate.

Not quite true. Have you seen some of the financial packages that Harvard gives? My cousin went to Harvard, and since his family made less than $200,000, he went there for free. Completely.

To say Harvard is for-profit in the same way as RVU - well, it's the height of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[MSSM2013]

While I don't believe that for-profit schools are the way to go, they are also not the death of osteopathic medicine as we know it. In fact, RVU is probably a lot more efficient with tuition dollars than most stste-supported schools. Government-supported schools are inherently inefficient. They have a budget that is based on a contribution from the state as well as other revenue sources. They tend to use all the money in their budget, because if they don't spenfd it, it will get cut from the next year. When their budget does get cut they simply spend less by cutting out things that they really didn't need in the first place. OTOH, for-profit institutions are constantly looking for ways to get the same thing down while saving dollars at the same time. That's not a bad thing, especially if you are producing a quality product.

We have yet to see if RVU will supply a quality product (graduate). When the bard scores come out and the matches take place there will be a way to truly quantify the doctors they are producing. Until then you can debate away all you want but it's really a waste of time and effort, IMHO. Nothing you can say will make it go away and it's not likely going to affect you in any way if you coose to attend another school. However, RVU graduates will soon be your colleagues. Rather than spend so much time griping about how horrible this one institution is, why not spend more time on the real issues affecting osteopathic medicine today? Spend some effort on graduate medical education quality or declining reimbursements that affect every single one of us.

actually, when RVU cuts corner and save, the saving doesn't translate to student. It translates to the owner's packet.

 

[TopQuark]

...and if it doesn't translate to the students the school will turn out a bad product. This will translate into a bad image for the school; less clerkship sites will be interested in their students, less PD's will be interested in their grads, and eventually less people will want to go there. This will all equal less money in their greedy owner's pocket.
From its inception, the school already has a questionable image in the field, so its in the best interest of the board to make sure they turn out nothing but the best quality students they can. If they don't, I don't see a long future for RVU. For-profit institutions(that aren't heavily subsidized by the federal government) must pass a market test or they fail, and will lose $$$ for their owners. I have no qualms with RVU since, as it's already been stated, it has yet to turn out one inferior graduate. It also has the potential to provide an underserved region of the country with badly needed doctors. Its an example of a for-profit institution meeting demand that, for whatever reason, not-for-profit institutions (LCME) have yet to fully address.
I'm from Colorado, and I look forward to seeing what will happen with RVU's future. There's a healthcare shortage in this country, and RVU may be part of the solution. It may be an abysmal failure or a shining success, but until then I'll reserve my judgement.

 

[MSSM2013]

...and if it doesn't translate to the students the school will turn out a bad product. This will translate into a bad image for the school; less clerkship sites will be interested in their students, less PD's will be interested in their grads, and eventually less people will want to go there. This will all equal less money in their greedy owner's pocket.
From its inception, the school already has a questionable image in the field, so its in the best interest of the board to make sure they turn out nothing but the best quality students they can. If they don't, I don't see a long future for RVU. For-profit institutions(that aren't heavily subsidized by the federal government) must pass a market test or they fail, and will lose $$$ for their owners. I have no qualms with RVU since, as it's already been stated, it has yet to turn out one inferior graduate. It also has the potential to provide an underserved region of the country with badly needed doctors. Its an example of a for-profit institution meeting demand that, for whatever reason, not-for-profit institutions (LCME) have yet to fully address.
I'm from Colorado, and I look forward to seeing what will happen with RVU's future. There's a healthcare shortage in this country, and RVU may be part of the solution. It may be an abysmal failure or a shining success, but until then I'll reserve my judgement.

it doesn't have to invest money into student besides the lowest amount needed. there are much more applicants than available seats for medical school. they can afford to make their school into a two year long board review course and then ship their students out everywhere. As long as people match, it will recieve more applicants.

while non-profit school reinvest money into research and such, RVU doesn't have to. A student who does research and matches in university IM pays the same tuition as a student who barely squeak by and matched into community IM.

 

[csmittyB]

Not quite true. Have you seen some of the financial packages that Harvard gives? My cousin went to Harvard, and since his family made less than $200,000, he went there for free. Completely.

To say Harvard is for-profit in the same way as RVU - well, it's the height of intellectual dishonesty.

My point wasn't that Harvard=RVU. My point is that all schools need to make money and the profit vs non-profit debate is pointless. I used Harvard as an example b/c it pulls in BILLIONS of dollars and still has a listed tuition of ~$40,000. From about.com "Nonprofit organizations can and do make a profit, but it must be used solely for the operation of the organization or, in the case of a foundation, granted to other nonprofit organizations."

And even if your cousin didn't pay while at Harvard, the money came from somewhere. Don't argue that the education was free. Completely. That is dishonest .

If a school wants to make money, they have that right. If the product that the school produces is not a quality product the school won't last. Education is a product. If people want to make money off that product, they can.

 

[MSSM2013]

My point wasn't that Harvard=RVU. My point is that all schools need to make money and the profit vs non-profit debate is pointless. I used Harvard as an example b/c it pulls in BILLIONS of dollars and still has a listed tuition of ~$40,000. From about.com "Nonprofit organizations can and do make a profit, but it must be used solely for the operation of the organization or, in the case of a foundation, granted to other nonprofit organizations."

And even if your cousin didn't pay while at Harvard, the money came from somewhere. Don't argue that the education was free. Completely. That is dishonest .

If a school wants to make money, they have that right. If the product that the school produces is not a quality product the school won't last. Education is a product. If people want to make money off that product, they can.

actually, look at law school. look at jdunderground.com. toilet law schools charge 40k for tuition and graduates cant even find jobs. for profit school don't need a quality education to survive as long as there are lemmings applying to it.

 

[Longshanks]

I am not trying to side with anyone here, but here are some of my opinion regarding RVU.

Firstly, I don't see why 'for profit' school won't act in the best interest of its student? As I posted before, if you want to think of the school as a corporate company, won't they want to ensure their 'product' (ie students) is well made to help them advertise themselves and thus earn more money? Every school will need to operate with money, so simply arguing that their way to obtaining the resources is different, to me, is not a good indicator on whether it care about their students more/less.

Look at the Caribbean schools, those are for profit. Good business models for making money, however I wouldn't say they are doing their students any favors by having large class sizes, large amounts of attrition, placing their students into huge piles of debt (greater than their stateside counterparts), having their students have to set up clinical rotations themselves, the majority lacking accreditation in the US. DeVry & ITT Tech are for profit as well, maybe they get their students jobs but are we going to say they're placing their students in any of the same positions and opportunities as an Ivy or a even a State school? (A CC might benefit their students more) The bottom line is a for profit school only cares about the bottom line, and how to fatten it the most. Yes, even non-profit schools are a business and need to make money to fund themselves, but there isn't that additional pressure to line the pockets of investors and keep them happy as well as stuffing their own pockets.

 

[Longshanks]

My point wasn't that Harvard=RVU. My point is that all schools need to make money and the profit vs non-profit debate is pointless. I used Harvard as an example b/c it pulls in BILLIONS of dollars and still has a listed tuition of ~$40,000. From about.com "Nonprofit organizations can and do make a profit, but it must be used solely for the operation of the organization or, in the case of a foundation, granted to other nonprofit organizations."

And even if your cousin didn't pay while at Harvard, the money came from somewhere. Don't argue that the education was free. Completely. That is dishonest .

If a school wants to make money, they have that right. If the product that the school produces is not a quality product the school won't last. Education is a product. If people want to make money off that product, they can.

Yes non-profit orgs make profits, and need to in order to run efficiently, but even as your definition says: those profits go back into the organization. In for for profit models the majority of profits go into the pockets of the investors, rather back into the educational institution and its students.

 

[scpod]

actually, when RVU cuts corner and save, the saving doesn't translate to student. It translates to the owner's packet.

However, RVU hasn't cut any corners when it comes to students. They have spent more money on amazing technology and on attracting faculty than just about any other school. And, their tuition is lower than quite a few "not-for-profit" DO schools.

Look, RVU is certainly run like a business, and a business strives to make money by providing a quality product at a reasonable price, all while carefully watching the bottom line. If they don't do that then they will cease to exist. Businesses know that you have to spend money to make money and they have done so thus far.

State supported schools are not run that way. They are in no way run efficiently. They do NOT put profits back into the students. They simply spend all the money they have on SOMETHING or their budget will be cut the next year. It might be something that benefits the student or not. They don't have the impetus to spend wisely, just to spend it all.

 

[TopQuark]

This isn't about carib schools, but even they fail out a lot of students that should not be in med school. Caveat emptor, is great advice for those "lemmings" that apply there.

Med school is different from law school. Sure, some lawyers can't find jobs, but we do not live in a world where qualified physicians are unable to find work. In this country, there are more than enough lawyers, but not nearly enough doctors. Residency spots go unfilled every year, even with FMGs. If your worried that RVU won't produce graduates that are competitive for top residencies then they will fill the bottom spots, and an applicant wanting top spots would be well advised to not go there (again, buyer beware). I'm much happier with those bottom spots going to graduates of US for-profit schools than their offshore versions that have much less oversight. If you're worried that RVU won't produce graduates that can even meet medical standard, then we have a system to screen those out, as well. Isn't this the very reason licensing exams and state boards even exist??

Furthermore, who says RVU boardmembers won't reinvest their, yet to be seen, ill-gotten fortunes back into the school or into research? Being business savvy capitalists, might they realize that there's a lot of money to be had if the research they invest in leads to something useful for which people are willing to pay money? Might they then realize its more profitable to have the best and brightest faculty and students to conduct said research?

But, in any case, this is all speculation as RVU has yet to graduate one doctor, or even prove they have a sustainable business model. Give them a chance, or else this self-serving prejudice might prevent them from surprising us.

 

[DO Anes]

A nice campus, new buildings and technology will fool a lot of people. If it looks like a medical school it must be a medical school? Firing the dean, Dr. Martin, and then firing the board when that board supported Dr. Martin is another thing altogether. Replacing the board with relatives and associates from the American University of the Caribbean is the icing on the cake. All of this before the charter class even completed the first year. Is this how medical schools act? Maybe in the third world.
There is no credible for-profit medical school in the industrialized world. RVU has damaged this profession's reputation at a point in history where it is particularly perilous. Don't be surprised when the US Department of Education removes COCA's authority to accredit osteopathic schools and delegates it to the LCME.

 

[DO Anes]

Furthermore, who says RVU boardmembers won't reinvest their, yet to be seen, ill-gotten fortunes back into the school or into research? Being business savvy capitalists, might they realize that there's a lot of money to be had if the research they invest in leads to something useful for which people are willing to pay money? Might they then realize its more profitable to have the best and brightest faculty and students to conduct said research?

Seriously?

 

[TopQuark]

What? Research can't be profitable?

Just saying if they produce research/anything of value, it increases the value of their brand and they can attract more $$$ from grants and investors. There are many other reasons for-profit companies invest in themselves and seek top talent to work for them, if you don't like my example.

With all the admin issues, maybe I shouldn't be carrying RVU's torch. Hell, I'll not even applying there. Though RVU may be a bad example, I don't believe that a for-profit school is, by nature, antithetical to quality education. Thus far, the LCME has prevented any for-profit med school from even getting the chance to fail.

 

[WhatsNext]

...and if it doesn't translate to the students the school will turn out a bad product. This will translate into a bad image for the school; less clerkship sites will be interested in their students, less PD's will be interested in their grads, and eventually less people will want to go there. This will all equal less money in their greedy owner's pocket.
From its inception, the school already has a questionable image in the field, so its in the best interest of the board to make sure they turn out nothing but the best quality students they can. If they don't, I don't see a long future for RVU. For-profit institutions(that aren't heavily subsidized by the federal government) must pass a market test or they fail, and will lose $$$ for their owners. I have no qualms with RVU since, as it's already been stated, it has yet to turn out one inferior graduate. It also has the potential to provide an underserved region of the country with badly needed doctors. Its an example of a for-profit institution meeting demand that, for whatever reason, not-for-profit institutions (LCME) have yet to fully address.
I'm from Colorado, and I look forward to seeing what will happen with RVU's future. There's a healthcare shortage in this country, and RVU may be part of the solution. It may be an abysmal failure or a shining success, but until then I'll reserve my judgement.

But, in any case, this is all speculation as RVU has yet to graduate one doctor, or even prove they have a sustainable business model. Give them a chance, or else this self-serving prejudice might prevent them from surprising us.

I think these are the most intelligent statements I have read on this entire thread.

While I've had my own reservations about RVU, I don't think any of them had to with their for-profit status. I decided to apply and was accepted there. I don't know yet if I will attend as I've also applied to other schools. But, after visiting the school I will not say anything negative unless the future proves that RVU is as bad for medical education some on this thread would like to think. There are many intelligent and hardworking professionals working at RVU who are committed to success of the school and, more importantly, the students.

It seems to me that there are many on this thread who would like to see RVU fail, which I don't understand. I, on the otherhand, wish RVU to succeed for several reasons. First, for the sake of the current students at RVU who are working as hard as all other medical students in order to become physicians. It would also show that COCA knew what it was doing when it granted a provisional accreditation to RVU, which would be a good thing for osteopathic medical education. Finally, I personally think it would be pretty amazing to see that for-profit medical education can actually work and succeed (this is the USA last time I checked). I just don't see why it is so hard for people who don't have anything to do with RVU to just sit back and see what happens. Let the RVU students, faculty, and staff worry about their own problems. If there is something amiss with how RVU is being run, I think market forces will take care of it one way or another.

 

[MSSM2013]

Isn't this the very reason licensing exams and state boards even exist??

the USMLE is a MINIMUM COMPETENCY EXAM

 

[Lokhtar]

If education is a product, name me some for-profit universities.

 

[Lokhtar]

And even if your cousin didn't pay while at Harvard, the money came from somewhere. Don't argue that the education was free. Completely. That is dishonest .

Ding ding ding. It came from the endowment. You know, the thing that would be called 'profits' at RVU? The difference was, and the reason it was free, that the extra money is reinvested back into the organization. The money is spent back in terms of facilities, resources, faculty, research, etc.

That model is so different compared to RVU that you're just pulling at strings to try to even compare.

 

[teacherman84]

except in harvard and UCSF, those money goes to teaching and research. In RVU the money goes to funder's pocket.

I think universities and colleges should be not for profit but are any truly non-profit? while most universities can technically claim the status, look at the salaries and bonuses of the bigwigs that run the place. They are as bad as wall street in some cases.
The organizations may not profit but the people who run the place are absurdly compensated...I know you need to pay to get the top minds that keep these places successful but you cant say the high tuition at some of these places goes to teaching and research

From a recent article in USA today: http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20090901/usaid01_st.art.htm

New York University John Sexton, president $1,385,339
Columbia University Lee Bollinger, president $1,380,035
University of Pennsylvania Amy Gutmann, president $1,279,819
Yale University Richard Levin, president $1,200,583
Johns Hopkins University William Brody, president $1,198,964
University of Southern Calif. Steven Sample, president $1,161,72
Yale University David Swensen, chief investment officer $4,389,727
University of Southern Calif. Pete Carroll, head coach, football $4,386,652
Columbia University David Silvers, clinical professor of dermatology $3,738,419
Duke University Mike Krzyzewski, head coach, men's basketball $3,705,909
Cornell University Zev Rosenwaks, professor obstetrics and gynecology $3,392,417
University of Chicago James Madara, vice president medical affairs $2,870,997
New York University James Grifo, professor obstetrics and gynecology $2,867,596
University of Pennsylvania Ralph Muller, CEO, University of Pennsylvania Health System $2,518,232
Stanford University John Powers, president Stanford Management Co. $2,429,757
Princeton University Andrew Golden, president, Princeton University Investment $2,091,425

 

[Lokhtar]

Actually, it does. The fact is these Presidents make a lot of money because they make tens of millions in terms of endowment.

And $2 million salary for a $26 billion dollar endowment is different from a $26 billion profit from a $26 billion endowment. For example, 70% of Harvard students qualify for need based aid, and in a significant portion of those, it amounts to a full ride. If Rocky Vista charges the same in tuition, will you ever be able to say the same?

 

[teacherman84]

Actually, it does. The fact is these Presidents make a lot of money because they make tens of millions in terms of endowment.

And $2 million salary for a $26 billion dollar endowment is different from a $26 billion profit from a $26 billion endowment. For example, 70% of Harvard students qualify for need based aid, and in a significant portion of those, it amounts to a full ride. If Rocky Vista charges the same in tuition, will you ever be able to say the same?

I am not trying to justify RVU, but rather expressing disgust for the salaries. There is an obvious profit being made even though it is on an individual basis.
Additionally, you cant claim these individuals are solely responsible for the schools success. Im all for capitalism but you expect these numbers on Wall Street not universities and art museums.

 

[MSSM2013]

I am not trying to justify RVU, but rather expressing disgust for the salaries. There is an obvious profit being made even though it is on an individual basis.
Additionally, you cant claim these individuals are solely responsible for the schools success. Im all for capitalism but you expect these numbers on Wall Street not universities and art museums.

the point is, you should let RVU disgust you some more because if the founder made 26 million, he's going to pocket 26 million except essential upkeep, where as in non-profit organization those money are going to be mostly invested back to the organization.

 

[scpod]

If education is a product, name me some for-profit universities.

Partial list from Wikipedia:

Academy of Art University (San Francisco, California)
Allied College (Maryland Heights, Missouri and Fenton, Missouri)
AMA Computer University (Quezon City, Philippines)
American College of Education (Illinois)
American InterContinental University (multiple locations)
American Military University (multiple locations)
American Public University System (distance education; offices in Charles Town, West Virginia, and Manassas, Virginia)
Andrew Jackson University (distance education; based in Hoover, Alabama)
Anhembi Morumbi (São Paulo, Brazil)
Anthem Institute (formerly the Chubb Institute; multiple locations)
Argosy University (multiple locations)
The Art Institutes (multiple locations)
Ashmead College (multiple locations)
Banner College (Arlington, Virginia)
Banner Institute (Chicago)
Berkeley College (New York and New Jersey; not to be confused with University of California, Berkeley or the Yale University residential college)
Blair College (Colorado Springs, Colorado)
BPP College, Great Britain [1]
Brooks College (California; closed in 2008)
Brooks Institute of Photography (multiple locations)
Brown College (Mendota Heights, Minnesota), not to be confused with Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island)
Brown Mackie College (multiple locations)
Bryant & Stratton College (multiple locations)
Bryman College (multiple locations)
Bryman Institute (multiple locations)
The Bryman School (Phoenix, Arizona and Tempe, Arizona)
California Southern University (online)
Cambridge College (multiple locations)
Capella University (online university)
Capstone Career College (Tacoma, Washington)
The College of Westchester (white Plains, New York)
Collins College (Phoenix, Arizona area)
Colorado Technical University (multiple locations)
Crown College (Tacoma) (Tacoma, Washington) (lost accreditation in 2007 and closed)
Cyprus College (Nicosia, Cyprus)
Deaconess College of Nursing (St. Louis, Missouri)
DeVry University (multiple locations)
ECPI College of Technology (multiple locations)
Everest College (multiple locations)
Everest Institute (multiple locations)
Five Towns College (Dix Hills, New York)
Florida Metropolitan University (multiple locations)
Full Sail University (Winter Park, Florida)
Georgia Medical Institute (multiple locations)
Gibbs College (multiple locations)
Globe University/Minnesota School of Business (multiple locations in Minnesota)
Grand Canyon University (Phoenix, Arizona)
Grantham University (online)
Hamilton College (Iowa) (now part of Kaplan University; formerly operated from multiple locations in Iowa and Nebraska; not to be confused with Hamilton College in Clinton, New York, or with the unaccredited Hamilton University)
Harrison College (Indiana) (multiple locations)
Hesser College (multiple locations in New Hampshire)
High-Tech Institute (multiple locations)
Heald College (based in San Francisco: campuses at multiple locations in California, Portland, and Honolulu)
Interboro Institute (New York City; owned by EVCI Career Colleges Holding Corporation; announced on December 17, 2007 that it would close effective December 21, 2007.[2]
ITT Technical Institute (multiple locations)
Kaplan Career Institute (multiple locations)
Kaplan College (multiple locations)
Kaplan University (multiple locations)
Keiser University (multiple locations)
Kee Business College (multiple locations in Virginia)
Kendall College (Chicago, Illinois)
Kitchen Academy (Los Angeles, California)
Le Cordon Bleu (multiple locations)
Las Vegas College (Henderson, Nevada)
Maric College (multiple campuses in California)
Medical Careers Institute (multiple locations in Virginia)
Milwaukee Career College (Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
Monroe College (multiple locations)
Mountain West College (Salt Lake City, Utah)
Multimedia University (multiple campuses in Malaysia)
National American University (multiple campuses including Mall of America)
National College (multiple U.S. locations)
National Institute of Technology (multiple locations, not to be confused with National Institutes of Technology in India)
National School of Technology (multiple locations)
Neumont University (multiple locations)
NewSchool of Architecture and Design (San Diego, California)
Northcentral University (online university)
Olympia Career Training Institute (multiple locations)
Our Lady of Fatima University (multiple locations in Philippines)
Pacific Western University (San Diego, California)
Parks College (multiple locations)
Pioneer Pacific College (multiple locations in Oregon)
Potomac College (Washington, D.C. area)
Rasmussen College (multiple locations)
Regenesys Management (Sandton, South Africa)
Remington College (multiple locations)
Rhodes Colleges, Inc (multiple locations, not to be confused with Rhodes College)
Rochester Business Institute (Rochester, New York, not to be confused with Rochester Institute of Technology or the University of Rochester)
Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine
Ross University (Medical School in Dominica and Veterinary Medicine in St. Kitts)
Salem International University (Salem, West Virginia)
Sanford-Brown College (multiple locations)
Sanford-Brown Institute (multiple locations)
Schiller International University (multiple locations)
School of Visual Arts (New York, NY)
South University (multiple locations)
Springfield College (Springfield, Missouri; not to be confused with Springfield College in Springfield, Massachusetts)
Stevens-Henager College (multiple locations)
Stratford University (multiple locations)
Strayer University (multiple locations)
Tooling University, Cleveland, Ohio
TUI University (formerly Touro University International; online)
Universidad de las Américas (Santiago, Chile)
Universidad Europea de Madrid (Madrid, Spain)
University of Advancing Technology (Tempe, Arizona)
University of Atlanta (distance education only; not to be confused with Atlanta University Center or Clark Atlanta University)
University of the Latin American Educational Center (Rosario, Argentina)
University of Phoenix (multiple locations)
Virginia College (multiple locations; not to be confused with the University of Virginia or other state-operated schools)
Vet Tech Institute, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Walden University (Minneapolis, Minnesota)
Western Business College (multiple locations)
Western International University (multiple locations)
Western State University College of Law (Fullerton, California)
Westwood College of Technology (multiple locations)
Wyoming Technical Institute (WyoTech) (multiple locations)

 

[teacherman84]

the point is, you should let RVU disgust you some more because if the founder made 26 million, he's going to pocket 26 million except essential upkeep, where as in non-profit organization those money are going to be mostly invested back to the organization.

Thanks for clarifying...how could I have missed that?

I am disgusted by for-profit education and the scale of RVU is more severe than some of these institutions. But it is all disgusting regardless of who is making more money at it.

In a previous career I worked for a big-name tutoring company and for a while worked in the management in addition to instruction...I was even offered a spot directing one of their centers but left after a short time of watching how the profit margin constantly trumped educating students in every decision. People would take out high interest private loans to invest in a few short hours with tutors who most of the time did little to no good for students.

I see the difference in the fact that for-profit businesses dont hide their intent. They are a business and their profit comes from results, so they will invest what they need to grow those results but keep the remainder. Its not pretty but they are honest.

 

[Instatewaiter]

...and if it doesn't translate to the students the school will turn out a bad product

From its inception, the school already has a questionable image in the field, so its in the best interest of the board to make sure they turn out nothing but the best quality students they can. If they don't, I don't see a long future for RVU. For-profit institutions(that aren't heavily subsidized by the federal government) must pass a market test or they fail, and will lose $$$ for their owners.

The entire issue with a for-profit medical school is that the demand is so high it does not matter what kind of "product" the school puts out. You could see only 1/2 match and 1/2 the students fail the boards and there would still be loads of kids lining up to pay 50K a year. I am sure some have you have taken micro economics. It is the same idea as inelasticity. The demand is so high for the product that it doesn't really matter what the price is (or in this case the quality). Hell the demand is so high people are willing to move to a different country and fork over 50,000 a year knowing they have less than a 50% chance of ever being a doctor (carribean).

Frankly Pre-meds have no idea what to look for in a school or what is considered a reasonable standard. So it is very easy to pull the wool over your eyes with a shiny new building and some computers. The people who do know what to look out for and who should really be protecting the prospective students is COCA. And they are not living up to their end of the bargain.

The classrooms of the first 2 years mean next to nothing. You could have your classes in a barn with some desks and a projector and it wouldnt noticibly impact your education. The impt thing to look for is ROTATIONS. The fact that there are so many sites at RVU is actually NOT a good thing. It shows, first that the school could not secure a central location. This means that your rotations there will be fragmented and the educational experience will be poor. Second it shows that hospitals were very hesitant to allow more than a few RVU students to rotate at a time.

Furthermore these rotations are not set in stone. Since no one has gone through a single rotation, we don't even know if they will hold up for the class that starts them next year. At this time, all they are, are words on a page.

If you're worried that RVU won't produce graduates that can even meet medical standard, then we have a system to screen those out, as well. Isn't this the very reason licensing exams and state boards even exist??

Well there are a few things in place to screen out unfit students. One are licensing exams, the other is the accrediting agencies for both medical schools and residency. COCA is not doing it's job. I assure you RVU would not live up to LCME standards.

 

[Instatewaiter]

State supported schools are not run that way. They are in no way run efficiently. They do NOT put profits back into the students. They simply spend all the money they have on SOMETHING or their budget will be cut the next year. It might be something that benefits the student or not. They don't have the impetus to spend wisely, just to spend it all.

And you know this because you attend a state school?

 

[Lokhtar]

I think this just proved my point. Just compare the quality.


How many in the top 100 rankings? Top 200? Top 300?

Partial list from Wikipedia:

 

[scpod]

And you know this because you attend a state school?

I know this because I was a "troubleshooter" for a business that made 188 million dollars in the last year I worked for them. I went from location to location, turning around the ones that were less profitable. I have studied the models that work, the ones that don't, and the efficiency of all of them. I've done research on public educational models. If there's anything I do know, it's about getting rid of waste. In addition, I did work for the first two years of medical school teaching at a private "for-profit" nursing school. I've said previously that I don't totally agree with the model, but it's not the disaster in waiting that everyone thinks. Given time, we will see about the quality of the docotrs that graduatee from there, but none of us knows how good they will be at this point. We can, however, say that they meet COCA standards, just like all the other osteopathic schools in the US. They have produced some pretty good graduates.

They haven't had a single student even begin rotations. To say that they will have a horrible experience at this point is a statement of ignorance. No one has any idea what kind of experience these students will have as of yet. We will all see over the years to come. Any prediction at this point is really no more than a guess.

Go ahead....guess away.

 

[scpod]

I think this just proved my point. Just compare the quality.


How many in the top 100 rankings? Top 200? Top 300?

What does that matter? A lot of graduates of these places are the ones who are taking care of you every day. They may even have designed the building you sit in now or have built the car you ride around in. I attended two different state schools for undergrad. I have no idea where they "rank", nor do I care. I feel like I got a pretty good education. The educaton is the bottom line, not a silly ranking.