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Rocky Vista "Turmoil"?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Osteopathic [ DO ]' started by smg111622, 10.21.09.

  1. bth7

    bth7 Did I actually sign up for this?

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    Good summary article about the overall story at Rocky Vista University:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Vista_University_College_of_Osteopathic_Medicine

    Great comparison / discussion piece about the demand for med school seats and physicians in Colorado. This demand is driving the current situation:

    http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_13535817

    The demand for new schools exists, therefore Rocky Vista exists.

    bth
    Last edited: 11.08.09
  2. just one

    just one

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    Driving drunk is wrong, everyone agrees due to proven fact of impairment, hence your argument holds no water

    No, but RVU does not have any students in rotations yet, so until students are actually in 3 &4 year without residency programs, then I'll condemn them. How can any new school (for profit or not) have history of educating 3rd and 4th year students? Take your emotions out of the equation and look at it objectively. I will state again, I have no interest in attending RVU (I didn't even apply there), I would like someone to give me a factual, current reason without emotion or heavily opinion basis on why to condemn them. Mistakes made in for profit medical schools 100 years ago are hardly relevant. Do you honestly believe they will make the same mistakes?
    Last edited: 11.08.09
  3. Concubine

    Concubine PDE5 inhibited

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    Even if you like the idea of RVU, you have to admit at the least that RVU is a gamble. Why gamble if you don't have to?
  4. just one

    just one

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    I agree 100% that if you have other options you should pursue them. But for profit alone does not play apart of my decision, it would be the provisional accreditation that dissuades me.
  5. boone95

    boone95

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    Would you say that PNWU is a gamble as well?
  6. group_theory

    group_theory EX-TER-MIN-ATE!' Administrator SDN Senior Moderator

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    One thing to keep in mind is that RVU is certainly controversial - just look at all the threads on SDN, in the JAOA letters to the editors, etc. Whether for-profit is right or wrong, whether RVU is good for osteopathic medicine or not, the fact remain that RVU (and its students) have that additional "challenge" to their reputation that other new DO schools (or branch campuses) do not have to face.

    The thing that worries me is that medicine (and especially medical education) is very conservative - come residency application and interview time, what impact will RVU's reputation come into play. Ask exPCM or DO Anes if students from RVU will have a hard time getting into their respective residency programs? The last thing you want is to not be invited to an interview because the program director, or assistant program director doesn't like the concept behind RVU (whether it is right or not is a subject of debate that has been ongoing for a few pages now in this thread) ... but the program directors/assistant program directors will have the last say. And come interview time ... if the faculty interviewer (or resident interviewer, depending on program) knows about RVU and its for-profit model, the last thing an applicant wants to do during the interview is defend their school. An applicant should not have to defend their choice of school, but it does come up, whether it's a caribbean school, an osteopathic school, or in this case, a for-profit osteopathic school. When I was applying for residency, there were some interviews whether the faculty interviewers asked me why I went the DO route (although usually at the end of my answer, they would usually praised PCOM since they either have had graduates from PCOM come through their program or they have friends/fellow faculty members graduate from PCOM). I don't know if MD students get those questions (ie why did you go to University of Maryland, Why Temple? Why Jefferson)

    I've seen many posts (some by RVU students) here on SDN that states that the school doesn't really matter, that it's the board scores and clinical performances. While board scores and clinical performances do matter, there is that X-factor that plays into ranking too (along with decision to invite for interview). As an example, why do DO students have hard time securing ACGME surgical positions? Any DO students who have gone through the nrmp will know that it exist (to what extent is variable).

    In my earlier post, I stated that I don't know what impact RVU's status will have on its student come match time. While I still don't know what impact it will have, my prediction is that it will have little effect on ACGME matches (most acgme program directors won't know what rvu is, just that it's one of those new do schools), but probably a significant impact on AOA competitive residencies. There will be a few who will overcome the odds and obtain those competitive spots, but fewer compare to other schools of comparable class size. The match percentage will be comparable to any new DO schools, but the type of residencies its graduates will obtain will be slightly different. That's my prediction.
  7. Concubine

    Concubine PDE5 inhibited

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    Hell yes, any new school is a gamble. RVU more so due to the surrounding controversy though. Obviously there are some factors that are bigger than others when choosing a school, i.e. location or being near their family one of them. I suspect this is the reason many people apply to RVU. I can't completely disagree with their decision, there priorities are just different than mine. But if location isn't an issue, & you have an acceptance anywhere else than RVU, I would take it.
    Last edited: 11.08.09
  8. Spider29er

    Spider29er Leg Pain is Good

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    Helleluja!!!
  9. MSSM2013

    MSSM2013

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    there has been a presentation on the current composition of the board a few thread above, might wanna take a look.
  10. just one

    just one

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    Can't you just let it go, you'd think RVU representatives ran over your dog or something. You are in medical school, RVU should have no part in your life. If you think RVU will lead to the destruction of Osteopathic medicine write the AOA or other institutions.
    Last edited: 11.08.09
  11. MSSM2013

    MSSM2013

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    for profit medical education bothers me, greatly, that's all.
  12. just one

    just one

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    That is your right, but respect other's right to have their own opinion. Nobody wants opinions forced upon them. Some agree with you, some don't. And by the arguments (by arguments I mean responses, not fights) posted on this thread it is mainly personal. You probably won't convince anyone to switch sides with your arguments based on personal beliefs
  13. bioman2006

    bioman2006 2 year member

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    .
    Last edited: 04.21.12
  14. bth7

    bth7 Did I actually sign up for this?

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    For what its worth, the AMA and the Association of American Medical Colleges agrees with you. That's why they banned for profit medical education.

    Why the osteopathic leadership feels DO-schools should have a different standard on this issue is anyone's guess.

    bth
  15. iatros

    iatros

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    wait... wait..... you mean the AMA and the AOA aren't bffs?

    well this is upsetting
  16. beeFs

    beeFs

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    In the comments area of this article (denver post) someone compared osteopaths to witch doctors. I havent read about these witch doctor schools, I wonder what their mcat and gpa averages are....
  17. Spider29er

    Spider29er Leg Pain is Good

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    Sign me up too...Forget DO and MD, I want to be a WD... Anybody know if they are for profit, or non profit? And is their tuition more or less than OOS tuition for Michigan State, cause I hear they aren't making money charging $63K for OOSers.

    I wonder what else we learn at that non-profit school, that justifies an extra $25K (more than RVU tuition)??? Maybe Ninja Medicine (A new ND-Ninja Doctor program)???

    Cool...
  18. Siggy

    Siggy

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    [​IMG]
  19. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    Many DO schools do not not have an on site or on campus teaching hospital for clinical rotations. Therefore students end up getting sent to one or more hospitals for rotations in the 3rd year leading to variable quality of clinical education between schools.
    A key question to ask is how much is the school paying the primary or core or required rotation hospital sites?
    The less money the school has to pay the clinical site the greater the profit for the school.
    For instance I have heard that VCOM pays $1000 per student per month to the clinical core rotation sites ( http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocument...04bebe3e-9.pdf ) .
    Look at statement 5 and you will see that VCOM paid Carillion $133,000, UMDNJ $122,000, and Salisbury VA $113,000 for precepting students.
    Through these generous payments VCOM has been able to secure spots for their students at excellent clinical sites.
    Other schools are not willing to pay as much and I think it shows in the caliber of their clinical sites.
    A school may say that such and such hospital would not take our students for rotations. What I believe the school will often not say is that such and such hospital would not take our students for the price we were willing to pay.
    In the real world money talks.
    P.S. Look at what Carribean schools are doing for some insight. SGU paid 100 million for 600 clerkship positions per year for their students for 10 years to NY HHC and SGU will still make a nice profit http://www.sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives07-HHC.html . (My rough math calculates to 100 million/120 months/600 students = $1388 per student per month - however tuition at SGU in the clincal years works out to ~50K/year or about $4200 per month). My math may seems to be fairly close based on this article ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/n...d=1&adxnnlx=1258816214-uyCxelehGb2KA66 p D Ng ) which says SGU "pays the hospitals $400 to $425 per student per week — St. George's charges students about $1,000 a week in tuition — on top of an annual fee of $50,000 for hospitals that take 24 or more St. George's students" . Do you really think these NY hospitals have some great love for SGU students? I doubt it but money talks.
    Another example is the 3.5 million contract with Caritas Healthcare for rotations (see http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local...hospital_shutdowns_could_disrupt_med_stu.html ).
    Allopathic schools are noticing effects as well:
    "Traditionally, medical schools have sent third- and fourth-year students into city hospitals to work — and learn — alongside doctors without being charged. Health and Hospitals Corporation officials said some institutions had recently begun paying a flat fee of $250,000 a year, which Dr. Andrew W. Brotman, a senior vice president at New York University School of Medicine, likened to a gratuity. " I used to work as a waiter - I sure wish somebody would have given me a $250K gratuity in my days at Red Lobster.
    Last edited: 11.21.09
  20. Bacchus

    Bacchus PGY Too-many-expectations Moderator

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    Did you not see the thread about 3rd and 4th year rotations?
  21. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    I just looked at it and although there are some good points made I do not see where there is any mention of the question regarding paying for rotations as I have brought up in this new thread.
    I said this in another thread but as a for profit school IMO RVU will likely have a poor selection of 3rd year primary sites since IMO I don't see them wanting to fork over big bucks to pay clinical sites. The current list of sites on the RVU website is absolutely pathetic IMO:
    http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/dept_clinicalmed.asp
    "Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine is affiliated with both the HealthONE and Centura Hospital Systems in the Denver Metroplex. The HealthOne Hospitals include: SkyRidge Medical Center, Medical Center of Aurora, Swedish Medical Center, North Suburban Medical Center, Rose Medical Center and Presbyterian/St. Luke Medical Center. The Centura system includes: Parker Adventist Hospital, St.Anthony Medical Center, Porter Adventist, and Littleton Adventist Hospital, as well St. Mary-Corwin in Pueblo, Colorado.

    Rocky Vista University also has affiliation agreements with Memorial Hospital in Colorado Springs, Community Hospital in Grand Junction and Parkview Hospital in Pueblo--allowing for a broad teaching network across the state of Colorado--so that Rocky Vista can better meet its mission of providing quality healthcare to the rural and underserved areas of Colorado

    Rural hospital affiliations within Colorado include Wray, Grand Junction, Rifle, Meeker, Lamar, LaJunta, Cortez, and Walsenberg to name a few, with ongoing discussions with numerous other rural hospitals around the state.

    The University also has affiliation agreements with Metro Community Provider Network within the greater Denver Metroplex, and the Peak Vista Provider Network within the Colorado Springs Metroplex, allowing students and residents to work in clinic systems serving the healthcare needs of those communities."
    By my seat of the pants search IMO I believe that there may be only one osteopathic residency prgram (St. Mary Corwin FP residency http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...program_id=195015&hosp_id=119178&returnPage=1 ) and one or two allopathic residency programs ( HealthOne FP program and St. Mary's Grand Junction? FP programs https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/user/viewProgramSearch.do) associated with that entire list of hospital affiliated sites.
    IMO this current list of core sites is pathetic although RVU students may be expecting some big improvement. However the first RVU class should be starting rotations in less than 8 months. So if there is some big improvement coming then WHAT ARE THEY WAITING FOR?
    Last edited: 11.21.09
  22. rc4ch

    rc4ch

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    I'm not even going to attempt to read this wall of text. Don't know why Bacchus even gave your post his spare time because he should be studying for an exam, but seriously, you could write a better post.
  23. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Eh, I actually thought the first post was good ... but if it was a segue into a RVU rant ... I'm not interested.
  24. TeamZissou

    TeamZissou PGY1

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    Hahahaha and none of us EVER take study breaks. Personally I appreciate his "wall of text" because instead of just listing out opinions he supported them with actual sources. But I'm with Jaggerplate, if this is just going to degenerate into an RVU rant I'm apathetic to it.
  25. Bacchus

    Bacchus PGY Too-many-expectations Moderator

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    I don't think you're going to get a meaningful answer at your interview though. By the time you meet a clinical course director you're going to have matriculated. I don't think if I asked anyone at my interview, "How much do you spend per student on rotation?" I would have gotten a serious answer. Its not really the student's business to know. Clnical rotations must be valued/evaluated based on other criteria such as mixture of academic, community, and clinic opportunities, location, sharing of facilities, etc.
  26. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    So as to not pick on RVU, what can you say about these stellar ATSU rotation sites?
    http://www.atsu.edu/soma/clinical_rotations/index.htm
    All those great sites for only 80K per year COA: http://www.atsu.edu/financial_aid/s...09.10ForFlagstaffAZorHIWAOR2009.06.22_000.pdf
    Of course AZCOM's decision to increase their class size to 250/year had nothing to do with money, right?
    I think I see the plan: increase class size, bring in more money, worry about finding decent rotations for the students later.
    Then of course we have PNWU's list of impressive sites:
    North Seattle/Bellevue/Whidbey Island, WA
    Tacoma/Puyallup, WA
    Yakima area, WA
    Tri-Cities area, WA
    Portland, OR/Vancouver & Longview, WA
    Spokane, WA/Coeur d'Alene, ID
    Boise/Nampa/Caldwell, ID
    Great Falls/Helena/Shelby, MT
    Twin Falls/Blackfoot, ID
    Bend area, OR
    Anchorage/Mat-su, AK
    Fairbanks, AK
    http://www.pnwu.org/com.aspx
    I am sure Shelby, MT (population 3541: http://www.city-data.com/city/Shelby-Montana.html ) has a long and stellar track record of training future physicians.
    P.S. Thanks to TeamZissou for pointing out my error - post corrected.
    Last edited: 11.21.09
  27. TeamZissou

    TeamZissou PGY1

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    You're confusing two schools. Your links are for ATSU. You are correct that AZCOM did increase their class size to 250 from 150 two years ago. AZCOM is a branch of Midwestern while ATSU is a branch of KCOM.
  28. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    Thanks - I corrected the post above. Yes - PCOM has a branch in GA, VCOM is getting a branch in Spartanburg, AUC has a branch is Colorado, LECOM has a branch in Florida, Touro has a branch in Nevada, etc. - sort of like a franchise system. The principle seems the same - build a building, collect tuition money, worry about clinical training sites later. Way to go AOA - maybe these schools can end up like McDonalds with at least one in every town. However since residency slots are relatively static, where are all these students going to do residencies and in what specialties?
    Of course not to be outdone Western is opening a branch in Oregon in 2011: http://www.modernhealthcare.com/app...No=301179996&SectionCat=&Template=printpicart
    Last edited: 11.21.09
  29. Bacchus

    Bacchus PGY Too-many-expectations Moderator

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    I don't think the residency number is a problem quite yet. We'll displace IMG/FMG students but the numbers will dictate change soon enough. I know with GA-PCOM, there isn't a huge problem finding clinical rotation sites.
  30. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    Look at this and tell me there will not be a big squeeze coming on getting rotation sites in Georgia:
    [​IMG]
    http://gbpw.georgia.gov/vgn/images/...6641Fact Sheet - GAs Medical Schools 2009.pdf
  31. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    I forgot to mention LECOM's new branch campus (Seton Hill) opening up in Greensburg, PA in 2011.
    Since there are currently only nine medical schools in Pennsylvania, I guess these students will have no problems getting good local clinical rotations, right?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States
    Of course if the LECOM-Seton Hill students end up having problems then maybe they can share the top notch rotations in Shelby, MT with the PNWU students.
  32. Lewist02

    Lewist02

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    I'm not too well versed on the matter..but at PCOM one of the Dean's made a comment about why they got rid of their hospital. He said that not having the hospital actually reduced the percentage rate of tuition increases. When having a hospital, you still have to fund it even though the building may be paid off, and he said with so many uninsured citizens using the ER for their "primary care", and with little government reimbursements, PCOM was actually paying a great deal for the compensation. He said that with PCOM paying the clincal rotation sites, they save more money than they had in the past actually operating the hospital. Not sure how much this applies for elsewhere, but it makes sense to me. :)

    Hope this helps!
  33. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    So you really think PCOM tuition hikes were used to fund the hospital.
    How about funding this (look carefully at pages 10 and 18)?
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2008/231/355/2008-231355135-050db6d7-9.pdf
    Of course IMO these PCOM faculty members only took these jobs due to their passion for producing 140-150K per year primary care physicians to fill the void in medical care.
    Last edited: 11.21.09
  34. stonewall22

    stonewall22

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    I'm not sure what is wrong with the hospitals RVU has lined up, especially since at least one other DO school, KCOM, has students in Colorado (other than you hate RVU for chicken little like reasons), and LECOM's students do well on boards and residency matches, while PNWU's sites remain to be seen...me thinks the DO training world is not as dismal as you seem to suggest.
  35. Bacchus

    Bacchus PGY Too-many-expectations Moderator

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    exPCM what is your motive?
  36. Lewist02

    Lewist02

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    Looks like my college President was better compensated than the CEO of PCOM. I'm not in any way saying that these numbers are justifiable, but I have worked in institutional development and fundraising all four years of college and these numbers do not surprise me in any way. No..the tuition hikes were not primarally used to fund the hospital, but your comment was in terms of profit. Yes, I think not funding the hospital will help with maintaining only 3% tuition increases instead of 7-10% at many other institutions, and no, I don't think the money they save from the hospital will be completely allocated to student tuition expenses. So I support not having a hospital and allocating profit towards clinical rotations at other clinics. The majority of schools compenstate their deans, presidents, and CEO's very well...I don't expect it to change.
  37. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Anarchy, chaos ... project mayhem.
  38. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    My goal is to spread the truth.
    Two major truths that all current and future med students should be aware of:
    1. Medicine is now big business.
    2. Medical education is now big business.

    Many of the things you will see in your career trace back to these two truths.
  39. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    If you consider going for rotations at centers with nothing in the way of specialty residencies and a bare minimum in primary care (2-3 FP residencies) residencies a good lineup, then your opinion is certainly far different from mine.

    Compare RVU's lineup to places like this: http://www.kmcnetwork.org/med-ed/grandview/Students_&_Future_Residents.cfm

    Think of OU-COM's students going to a center like Grandview and RVU students going to Podunk Hospital, Colorado.
  40. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    All altruistic, noble intentions aside ... everything in life is a business. Do you work in a medical practice and turn a profit seeing patients, or do you work in a free clinic in Guam where you live with the locals??? Get my drift? I'm not trying to be a jerk, and everyone who goes into medicine SHOULD do it because they want to help others, but saying it isn't a business or wasn't at one time, but it now, is just naive. Also, there are a lot of smart people in this world who can see a way to turn a buck, so they do. Medical education is an area where people can make money, so they do. Is it exploited in some cases (ie Caribbean schools)??? Of course. Is it also super unfair to say that all medical education (which is expensive) is a huge corrupt business and that being expensive/making money and training students to become good physicians are mutually exclusive?? Yes. For the vast, vast majority ... medical education is the US is extremely solid and student oriented. It costs a ton to run a medical school and also a lot to go there.
  41. exPCM

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    Believe it or not - Most good hospitals actually make some profit. Most academic medical centers still turn some profit as well. Who knows, maybe PCOM had poor management of their hospital, but in any case you will be happy that your friendly PCOM faculty can continue to raise tuition every year so they can continue to give themselves nice raises. As somebody in private practice I can say it must be a sweet deal to be able to just raise students' tuition each year to get a raise. The way it is right now if I want a raise I need to just suck it up and work harder and sign out more cases.
  42. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    I agree with many of your points. I do not agree that only the Caribbean schools are exploiting the business of medical education. The rapid expansion of schools and enrollment in MD/DO is in my opinion largely driven by the fact the schools know that there is a large pool of students willing to pay huge tuition dollars to become doctors and they are taking full advantage. In the PCOM statement I linked to above they are taking in over 60 million a year in tuition (see page 8 of the pdf) - does not take long to pay off a building with that income stream. It should not cost a ton to go to medical school but schools will continue to jack up the prices as long as the paying customers keep streaming in. Is it any wonder that PCOM has already opened a branch in Georgia and other schools are branching out as well.
    What I have seen firsthand is how money is corrupting medical education by leading schools to do more "remediation" of students who would have been failed/flunked out in the past. The schools are reluctant to kick out a paying customer (the tuition paying student). How many students in med school these days are actually allowed to scrape through or remediate who would have been flunked out in the past? For current students how many of your classmates have been allowed to remediate again and again?
    Last edited: 11.22.09
  43. scpod

    scpod Moderator Emeritus

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    This is just more of the same stuff from the previous thread.... so, I've moved it to where it belongs. Have fun hashing the same stuff over and over again.
  44. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    Warning: Be careful about posting here. I get the impression that RVU is a sore point with many on this site and they do not want it discussed.
    Last edited: 11.22.09
  45. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Eh, that's really not the case with SDN at all. The mods do a good job and are fair with not muting discussions. I do think you have some valid points, and I can tell you are passionate about it. My suggestion would be that you state these points in a concise, calm manner so that people take it seriously and you educate. Like I said before, I really liked the fact that your first post contained data, etc, but it kinda fell apart for me after that.
  46. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    You make some good points.
    My manner was very calm and concise as needed. I even provided references. I stated facts with references that apparently some do not like - that is their bias not mine. I have read some of your posts which I generally agree with. The forum says the thread has been "moved". From where I sit it in fact looks like the thread was completely deleted.
    Last edited: 11.22.09
  47. JW08

    JW08

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    All Caribbean medical schools are "For-Profit", and we have many physicians from there. At least RVU is under a US under provisional accreditation from a US organization.
    As far as I heard from RVU students, the faculty is excellent and care very much about students. Many of them are from TCOM, including new Dean, some from Ohio. So as far as quality of education, it is going to be great. As far as rotations & board exams goes, we have to wait and see. Along with DO degree (instead of MD), on top of "For Profit" status is going to irritate some hospitals. Just like people hating RVU on SDN, I am sure there are some MD's and Hospitals that may not be very kind toward RVU students.
    every first year RVU students are shadowing at least 3 time a semester, and many of the physicians have been very accomodating and helpful and the hospitals are getting exposed to RVU students, so it might help a little.

    We will wait and see till next fall.
  48. Danae00

    Danae00 Away from Boards...

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    .
    Last edited: 05.10.10
  49. fahimaz7

    fahimaz7

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  50. exPCM

    exPCM Removed

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    I actually don't think that there is a purity of non-profits and total evil in for-profits. However for-profits are IMO more likely to cut corners to improve the bottom line than non-profits. However as you can see from the PCOM financial statement I linked to above, IMO you have many people at "non-profit" schools making a killing in salaries derived largely form the exorbitant tuitions being charged to current med students.
    Med school tuition increases have reached criminal levels in my opinion and have far outstripped inflation for the past 10-15 years. In my opinion this development is largely motivated by greed and the excuses being used to justify this do not hold water.
    I will say again IMO particularly when compared to the excellent rotation sites at schools like OUCOM and VCOM for example, the clinical rotation sites currently listed on the RVU website are pathetic to say the least. They are supposed to have students moving to clinical sites next summer and this is the best they can do. However RVU is not alone IMO, it looks to me like ATSU and PNWU are using the same model of collecting big tuition money and then IMO send students to a widely dispersed and ragtag bunch of non-teaching hospital sites. I fail to see much difference to what some schools are doing for clinical rotations compared to what SGU and some of the Carribean schools are doing in terms of caliber of training.
    Last edited: 11.22.09

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