ROTC, Ed Delay, and Pay

[BigRedDeal]

Just started intern year. I'm a former ROTC and Ed Delay for med school. No HPSP.

I was under the impression I would get paid at the rate of O3 with 4 years because I paid my way through med school. The finance department disagreed. I can't find any regulation to support it.

Anyone know what I'm talking about and know what regulation to look at?

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[colbgw02]

Unless there has been a change, then you are correct. I found the regulation about 6 weeks ago, but it took awhile. However, I did post it on SDN. Maybe if you search my old posts you'll find it?

 

[colbgw02]

The regulation can be found under the DoD Financial Management Regulation 7000.14-R. Specifically, look at volume 7A, chapter 1, 010101.E, entitled 'Constructive Service', and 010191.F, where they give examples.

Time flies. It was way more than 6 weeks ago, but here you go. If that specific regulation is off point, then the relevant one should be in one of the nearby paragraphs of the manual.

 

[BigRedDeal]

Thanks for the response!

I have gone over that regulation but seems to only apply to doctors who graduated before 1981?

 

[colbgw02]

Yeah. I don't see anything on point, but I'm sure that you're right about your pay. Just gotta keep trying until the right person listens.

 

[BigRedDeal]

But you are being or have been paid at the O3 with 4 years even though you have no prior service?

Any other ROTC ed delayers getting paid this way?

 

[colbgw02]

But you are being or have been paid at the O3 with 4 years even though you have no prior service?

Any other ROTC ed delayers getting paid this way?

Yes, this happened automatically without even so much as a phone call from me to the finance or personnel office. It didn't happen immediately, though. I knew it wouldn't, but I gave them a couple of months, and sure enough, my August LES of intern year was correct with two months of back pay.

I have only known a handful of other ROTC/non-prior service/non-HPSP MC officers (we're just not that common, which explains why your finance office is confused), but yes, it has been the same for all of us.

 

[BigRedDeal]

I dont know what your orders state, colbgw02; but mine have my HPPED (health professions pay entry date) listed as 0. So I'm no longer expecting to be paid with 4 years service. I really hope for your sake you are not getting paid extra on accident. They will find you and get that money back.

As far as what I have read in the regulations, and please please prove me wrong.... ROTC/ ED Delayers will be paid just like the HPSP folks, as O3 with 0 years service.

 

[colbgw02]

I dont know what your orders state, colbgw02; but mine have my HPPED (health professions pay entry date) listed as 0. So I'm no longer expecting to be paid with 4 years service. I really hope for your sake you are not getting paid extra on accident. They will find you and get that money back.

As far as what I have read in the regulations, and please please prove me wrong.... ROTC/ ED Delayers will be paid just like the HPSP folks, as O3 with 0 years service.

Well, your HPPED does correlate to zero, because it should be the first day of your internship orientation, but that's not the relevant indicator. We're talking about base pay here, not the MC special pays. What you need to look for is just PEBD, and mine is correctly listed on my orders as the date of my ROTC commissioning.

 

[BigRedDeal]

You are right about HPPED.

5-3. Substantiating documents
a. Creditable service determines the health professions pay entry date (HPPED), which is the basis for computation of the amount of medical and dental variable special pay (VSP). The order-issuing agent will include the amount of creditable service in the officer's initial active duty orders, as determined by the OTSG.


I dont see PEBD on my orders. I guess I will wait for now and see what happens.

 

[Monty Python]

You are right about HPPED.

5-3. Substantiating documents
a. Creditable service determines the health professions pay entry date (HPPED), which is the basis for computation of the amount of medical and dental variable special pay (VSP). The order-issuing agent will include the amount of creditable service in the officer's initial active duty orders, as determined by the OTSG.


I dont see PEBD on my orders. I guess I will wait for now and see what happens.

Look on the top line of your LES, containing your demographic information. Left to right is "name," "SSN," "grade," "pay date." My "pay date" on that line is my Pay Entry Base Date. See attached .pdf.

 

[colbgw02]

PEBD should be on your LES. But, of course, if your base pay is incorrect, then it's probably because the PEBD on your LES is wrong. Actually, if your LES PEBD is correct, but your pay is wrong, then it may just be because it's taking the system a month or two to fix itself. You could also try your ORB. As always, stay on top of this and remember, you only have 90 days retroactive to initiate a pay inquiry.

 

[BigRedDeal]

PEBD should be on your LES. But, of course, if your base pay is incorrect, then it's probably because the PEBD on your LES is wrong. Actually, if your LES PEBD is correct, but your pay is wrong, then it may just be because it's taking the system a month or two to fix itself. You could also try your ORB. As always, stay on top of this and remember, you only have 90 days retroactive to initiate a pay inquiry.

Okay so Pay Date on LES is 140509.

Now the question is, who do I turn to to get this fix. The finance department of my MTF is clueless. This was the whole reason for coming here, to to find the appropriate regulation.

 

[colbgw02]

Okay so Pay Date on LES is 140509.

Now the question is, who do I turn to to get this fix. The finance department of my MTF is clueless. This was the whole reason for coming here, to to find the appropriate regulation.

Check out U.S. Code 533, which may be on point.

It's written so that only lawyers can understand it, but it seems like it may hinge on the fact that your acceptance of your internship constituted a change from a reserve commission to a regular Army one.

 

[denali]

Did you complete a DA Form 1506, Statement of Service - For Computation of Length of Service for Pay Purposes, when you did your personnel inprocessing?

 

[BigRedDeal]

Check out U.S. Code 533, which may be on point.

It's written so that only lawyers can understand it, but it seems like it may hinge on the fact that your acceptance of your internship constituted a change from a reserve commission to a regular Army one.

My understanding is that constructive service credit (CSC) is awarded for each year of education beyond the baccalaureate degree. However, that CSC is only used for " 1)initial grade as a regular officer. 2) rank in grade; and 3) service in grade for promotion eligibility". No mention of using CSC for pay purposes after 1981.

If I had to bet, colbgwo2, it is your PEBD that is wrong. They may have used your commissioning date as your PEBD, but you also had a break in service during medical school. And so far, there is no regulation that I have found that states you are correct.

 

[BigRedDeal]

Did you complete a DA Form 1506, Statement of Service - For Computation of Length of Service for Pay Purposes, when you did your personnel inprocessing?

No I did not complete it. I went straight to medical school after ROTC commissioning. So I've never served on active duty until reporting for Internship.

 

[colbgw02]

Okay. But I sleep pretty soundly at night, assured that my pay is and has been correct for the last decade. Just as it has been for all of the other ROTC, non-HPSP MC officers I've known. I'm sorry that your pay office has this screwed up, and I'm sorry that I haven't been able to provide you with the exact regulation. But mostly I'm sorry that you're apparently resigned to missing out on at least $70K over the next 7+ years.

 

[colbgw02]

No I did not complete it. I went straight to medical school after ROTC commissioning. So I've never served on active duty until reporting for Internship.

You don't need to have been on active duty in order to complete a statement of service.

And you're using the term "break in service" incorrectly. That means that you have completely separated, even if it's for just a day. So neither I nor you had a break in service during medical school.

 

[denali]

No I did not complete it. I went straight to medical school after ROTC commissioning. So I've never served on active duty until reporting for Internship.

Then you need to get with your S1 or PSB and complete one. To justify the various entries, they will need copies of your DA Form 4 from ROTC, all of your DA Form 71s, your orders for your Ed Delay, and the orders bringing you on active duty. The form will be used to calculate your adjusted PEBD, which will then be forwarded to finance.

 

[MilkandCookies]

If you are looking for authority to support your contention that your PEBD should be your commissioning date, look at the basic rules about credible service in DoD Financial Management Regulation 7000.14-R, volume 7A, chapter 1:

"B. Computation of Creditable Service. For most members who enter and serve on active duty without a break in service, the basic pay date is the date the member enters active or inactive service."

"C. Creditable Service Periods. Include active or inactive service in any of the following components without restriction:
... 2. Army, Naval, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard Reserve."
When you commissioned and began your educational delay, you were released from Cadet Command and assigned to US Army Reserve (USAR) Control Group on inactive status. When you finished school, you received orders assigning you to active duty and to a particular unit. You did not ever have a break in service. If you had a break in service you would also have a DD 214.

I am a JAG officer. I commissioned through ROTC and used the ed delay to attend law school. I had exactly the same pay problem and found this thread while doing research about it. (Aside: I am also married to a med student who has gotten all sorts of valuable information from this site. Thank you SDN!)

BigRedDeal: You, like me, seem to have incompetent finance personnel at your installation. This is how you get your pay fixed:

1) Bring all your records including your ROTC contract, commissioning paperwork, oath of office, orders assigning you to IRR/USAR Control Group, and orders bringing you to active duty to your S1. Your S1 will prepare a DA Form 1506.
2) Forward the DA Form 1506 to your finance office along with copies of the above documents.
3) Finance will forward your packet to DFAS. This type of inquiry is called a "CMS case."
4) Go and bother finance every 2 weeks about the status as your CMS case. When you go to finance do not deal with anyone who is an E5 or below. Use caution with E6's. It is my experience that many finance Soldiers don't read or understand the regulations. I read the regulations and you should too. It's your pay; make sure it's right.

 

[Mirror Form]

Colbgw02 is correct. I did ROTC with ad Ed-Delay and know a few others who have too. We all got base pay as O3 with 4 years in service, and this was way afte 1981. People have always gotten time in service toward pay scale (not retirement) for completing advanced degrees that they use toward their profession. Otherwise any time any person took an ed-delay to get a degree they'd fall behind their peers in terms of pay.

 

[pgg]

Colbgw02 is correct. I did ROTC with ad Ed-Delay and know a few others who have too. We all got base pay as O3 with 4 years in service, and this was way afte 1981. People have always gotten time in service toward pay scale (not retirement) for completing advanced degrees that they use toward their profession. Otherwise any time any person took an ed-delay to get a degree they'd fall behind their peers in terms of pay.

USUHS grads exit med school getting paid as O3 <2yrs even though they were commissioned 4 years earlier. Is that a special case?

 

[colbgw02]

USUHS grads exit med school getting paid as O3 <2yrs even though they were commissioned 4 years earlier. Is that a special case?

Yes, but the situations aren't analogous (I know you know that, but for others). Students on a delay are paying their own way and receive no benefits. Up until MS4 interview season, the sum total of my military involvement during medical school consisted of annually filling out a very simple educational delay renewal form and reporting my USMLE scores. I think I was supposed to take a PT test, but no one ever made me and I never asked. I actually got promoted to O2 halfway through, but, of course, it didn't matter at all.

I'm not an alumnus of USUHS, but I think that's a pretty raw deal for those students. They control your life and time, so you should get the benefits that go along with it.

 

[Mirror Form]

USUHS grads exit med school getting paid as O3 <2yrs even though they were commissioned 4 years earlier. Is that a special case?

Yes it is. In the early 80's there was a specific rule passed to exempt USUHS grads from getting those four years toward their time in service.

 

[BigRedDeal]

Turned in all of my paperwork for the DA FORM 1506. 1.5 months later it is still being worked on by the civilian contractors in S1. I bother them about it every week. I'm still getting paid at O3 with no prior service. I'll update if/when things change.

 

[denali]

Good luck.

Keep notes on everything, including dates, times, names, phone numbers of interactions. I recently spent 6 months trying to get a corrected W2 issued by the finance office. The customer service picked up by 2 orders of magnitude when I showed the supervisor my notebook of interactions and mentioned my next step was the IG.

 

[BigRedDeal]

Happy to say that after the DA Form 1506 was submitted, my PEBD was changed to my ROTC commissioning date and a large check (which looks to be back pay) showed up.

Thank you all for your help, I was wrong to doubt : )

YOU SHOULD GET PAID AS AN O3 WITH 4 YEARS IF YOU COMMISSIONED THROUGH ROTC AND DID NOT TAKE HPSP!!!

 

[VArmyMed]

Happy to say that after the DA Form 1506 was submitted, my PEBD was changed to my ROTC commissioning date and a large check (which looks to be back pay) showed up.

Thank you all for your help, I was wrong to doubt : )

YOU SHOULD GET PAID AS AN O3 WITH 4 YEARS IF YOU COMMISSIONED THROUGH ROTC AND DID NOT TAKE HPSP!!!

I know this is an old thread, but I'm hoping someone can help me. I am caught in a similar situation. I did ROTC and went straight to med school on ed delay (non-HPSP, IRR status). I had no prior service active duty or reserve drill time. I am 2 months into my intern year and they are saying I will get paid as an O3 with 0 years of service. I report to finance at Ft. Sam and they say they are justifying this position based on this regulation https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/14706

Does anybody have any clear support (regulation number) that I can provide to get paid as an O3 with 4 years of service. Please help! I don't want to be paid 15k less per year than I should.

For those of you who got paid as an O3 with 4 years service, what base were you at?