Rph just called Dave Ramsey

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O! So why not use roth as your emergency fund. If you're putting an emergency fund in a savings account, the interest is so low it would mostly be principal anyways.

It can, and lots of people do, but there are also reasons many don't. Eg, withdraing is like pulling on a small blanket, covering one part leaves another missing coverage. Money in Roth is likely invested in stock/bonds, which can lose money at the same time/reason that you resort to tapping it. I'm not sure about this, but I think you can't pay it back, since annual contribution is limited to $5500 a year, the loss is irreversible.

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Just so people are aware, you can withdraw principle from a Roth any time without penalty, you only pay 10% on the earnings.

This is correct. You can withdraw the principle at any time, tax free. I apparently mixed up the rules.
 
This is correct. You can withdraw the principle at any time, tax free. I apparently mixed up the rules.

Me too...narf.

The risk becomes what xiphoid2010 mentioned...stock market loss at a time you may need such funds. I suppose you can mitigate it by investing conservatively (hey...beats a 0.1% APY in a stupid savings account), but there is no such thing as a risk-free investment, either.
 
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The catch-22 is that new practitioners would be the first to be terminated and are most likely the ones to need to tap emergency savings whereas seasoned practitioners who are > 5 yrs in will likely not need to tap the account.
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Nope, false. The new RPhs make less and it's the old guys who make more who are fired first. We all see it everyday. Do you even read SDN? o_O
 
Nope, false. The new RPhs make less and it's the old guys who make more who are fired first. We all see it everyday. Do you even read SDN? o_O

I'm in unicorn land, remember?

I'm about as far removed from real world pharmacy as you can short of being in academia (heh heh).
 
This seems flawed. In the "saving/investing" scenario, it seems the person has no debt to pay. Obviously the person who must dedicate 10 years to paying off debt will have less after 10 years, because they had less on day 1.

I'll assume it was just poor reporting, and the two have identical starting scenarios, so the "investor" still has the debt. They would still be required to pay the minimum balance before they are saving, whereas the "pay off debt" person is contributing zero toward the saving. Putting some money in both places is usually going to be more advantageous than an all-or-nothing, so it seems flawed again.

I noticed this as well, there is something wrong with the math they are using there. Also the assumed 5% growth rate is less than the 6.8% of my student loans, meaning I'm throwing away 1.8% every year if I were to invest.
 
This seems flawed. In the "saving/investing" scenario, it seems the person has no debt to pay. Obviously the person who must dedicate 10 years to paying off debt will have less after 10 years, because they had less on day 1.

I'll assume it was just poor reporting, and the two have identical starting scenarios, so the "investor" still has the debt. They would still be required to pay the minimum balance before they are saving, whereas the "pay off debt" person is contributing zero toward the saving. Putting some money in both places is usually going to be more advantageous than an all-or-nothing, so it seems flawed again.

It would be foolish to not establish an emergency fund regardless of what strategy you pursue. Theoretically, the saving/investing route may end up allowing you more to dig yourself out with, but you'll pay significant penalties for liquidating your IRAs. It would be a complicated analysis to see which ends up better in this case; would depend on the sudden debt incurred, current assets and their allocation, etc. If you had a medical issue that would bankrupt you, losing a higher degree of assets and still retaining a high student loan balance would be inferior to losing a small amount of savings, yet being nearly debt free post-bankruptcy. Your 401k is a protected asset, so if you're heavily investing, you will be putting money into other vehicles after you maxed out at 17500. If it's a major home repair, you may end up ahead by cashing in savings beyond your emergency fund, which you may not otherwise have if all the money went toward debt.

I know they say to not time the market and all of that good stuff, but the spectacular returns of the past few years can't continue on indefinitely. Graduating today and being faced with the decision, it's harder to point toward investing as you're likely to be buying high.

Truth.

I totally missed this reply for some reason.

But I'm modeling 5% gains in the market YOY for a while. Oh well, 35% was fun while it lasted.
 
The secret is to just live waaaay below your means, like a dirt poor student for a couple of years (What's another couple of years eating Ramen Noodle or having roommates gonna do to you?) and you can do all of these and more: maxing 401k, ROTH, saving for emergency fund, and paying down loan. You will be set for life after a couple years. Just don't be the next average Joe who pays the loan in 10-30 years.
 
I just discovered these facebook online garage sales. I now know how I will furnish my new apartment.
 
292k in student loan, making 120k....

Dave Ramsey just chuckled....

Shot down IBR.
Then went on to say how "dumb" that is.
Then said if you have a kid planning to go to pharmacy school and they are going to graduate with debt like this, TELL THEM NOT TO DO IT!

Just had to share.
Ok this call is in the Audio Archives for Thursday, June 19 at about 54 minutes in.
http://www.daveramsey.com/show/archives/

A bit of transcript for ya:

You got a kid right now getting ready to go to pharmacy school, if the only way you can go to pharmacy school is $300,000 in debt, tell him don't go. That's just... don't... don't do that. DON'T do that. Well he's always dreamed of what?... Oh he's dreamed of what? Having his whole life be a freaking nightmare? That's what he's always dreamed of?? Don't give a crap what he's always dreamed of. That's not a dream, that's a nightmare.
This is the Dave Ramsey Show

:)
 
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The secret is to just live waaaay below your means, like a dirt poor student for a couple of years (What's another couple of years eating Ramen Noodle or having roommates gonna do to you?) and you can do all of these and more: maxing 401k, ROTH, saving for emergency fund, and paying down loan. You will be set for life after a couple years. Just don't be the next average Joe who pays the loan in 10-30 years.

+1
 
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Ok this call is in the Audio Archives for Thursday, June 19 at about 54 minutes in.
http://www.daveramsey.com/show/archives/

A bit of transcript for ya:

You got a kid right now getting ready to go to pharmacy school, if the only way you can go to pharmacy school is $300,000 in debt, tell him don't go. That's just... don't... don't do that. DON'T do that. Well he's always dreamed of what?... Oh he's dreamed of what? Having his whole life be a freaking nightmare? That's what he's always dreamed of?? Don't give a crap what he's always dreamed of. That's not a dream, that's a nightmare.
This is the Dave Ramsey Show

:)

when the caller mentioned IBR, Ramsey shot it down but he didn't mention the caller needs to pay taxes on the amount that is "forgiven" after 20 years! The tax bomb is waiting for him and his family!
 
when the caller mentioned IBR, Ramsey shot it down but he didn't mention the caller needs to pay taxes on the amount that is "forgiven" after 20 years! The tax bomb is waiting for him and his family!

Okay you need to be consistent...you can't argue with me on the one hand that PSLF will disappear and that I shouldn't rely on that government policy being there...while on the other hand you argue that a particular tax policy (PAYE bomb) will exist in TWENTY years.
 
Okay you need to be consistent...you can't argue with me on the one hand that PSLF will disappear and that I shouldn't rely on that government policy being there...while on the other hand you argue that a particular tax policy (PAYE bomb) will exist in TWENTY years.

Cap PSLF forgiveness at 57 k. The rest is moved to PAYE. After 20 years, whatever is left is taxable. There is already some of this in the Obama budget proposal.

Btw, as of now whatever that is forgiven via PAYE or IBR is considered as taxable income
 
You can only withdraw money you put into your Roth IRA after 5 years without having to pay a penalty
You can pull your own contributions for whatever with no penalty according to my tax man. Might as well max it out, you can always take what you put in back as long as you dont touch the gains.
 
TWO more pharmacists actually called into The Dave Ramsey Show yesterday, Wednesday, August 27, available in the audio archives: http://www.daveramsey.com/show/archives/

We seem to be becoming the text book case on excessive student loan debt...

The first one at 9 min 25 sec, actually a woman whose husband was the pharmacist.
$103,800 student loan remaining. Paid off 50-60k in debt already in 7 years
120k income
2400/mo house payment
She wanted to pay it off over 5 years

Dave's recommendation: stop 401(k) contributions, slash lifestyle, throw everything at debt to pay off 30k/yr x 3 yrs. He tells a story about a marathon runner who said it's easier to do it faster so you get it over with sooner.

Next one at 57 min 50 sec, Thomas, actually doing his debt free scream.
Paid off $148,959.93 in 4 years
Hardest part was actually to stop 401(k) contributions, but helped him to focus on remaining debt.
 
Making 120 k a year and graduating with 150 k in debt is not bad at all
 
Making 120 k a year and graduating with 150 k in debt is not bad at all

That was the rule, right? Student loan debt should be no larger than 1-1.5x annual income?

So starting income of $120k/yr should yield no larger than $180k in student loan debt.
 
Yeah but I think anything over 150 k is pushing it considering the high interest rate and the impact of the saturation on their future earning potential.
 
Yeah but I think anything over 150 k is pushing it considering the high interest rate and the impact of the saturation on their future earning potential.

You're forgetting inflation, so your advice at capping at $150k becomes irrelevant after a few years as wages eventually track (or trail) inflation.
 
You're forgetting inflation, so your advice at capping at $150k becomes irrelevant after a few years as wages eventually track (or trail) inflation.

Inflation doesn't matter when salary is stagnant or in the decline.
 
According to Dave Ramsey unless you can pay for college with cash you shouldnt go.

If I followed Ramsey's advice Id be making half working double. Forever. In 7 years when the debt is gone Ill be making double what I would have made in another career path with PT hours. Ill take the debt for that everytime, but thats just me.

I am also happy with my return on investment. My pharmacist salary is 3X what I made in my previous career. And the debt is manageable.

That was the rule, right? Student loan debt should be no larger than 1-1.5x annual income?

So starting income of $120k/yr should yield no larger than $180k in student loan debt.

180K is about what I started with at the end of pharmacy school. Down to 130K now, and think it will be paid off in 8 or so years.
 
You can pull your own contributions for whatever with no penalty according to my tax man. Might as well max it out, you can always take what you put in back as long as you dont touch the gains.
dumb question - but how many pharmacist can actually qualify for a roth ira? (unless you are married to a spouse with a low income/stay at home parent)
 
dumb question - but how many pharmacist can actually qualify for a roth ira? (unless you are married to a spouse with a low income/stay at home parent)

Back door Roth IRA
 
There is no one "best" book, because everyone's situation is different, and everyone's personality is different. Take me, I'm a low-risk personality, debt makes me very nervous, so when I graduated from school (with very little loan comparative to today's loans), it was a priority for me to pay it off. I do take on debt, and especially when I was fresh from pharmacy school, I was much more likely to carry over credit card debt for more than one month....but seldom did I carry it over more than 2 or 3 months. Yeah, I could have in invested more, but to me the stress wasn't worth it. And some people's priorities are to live it up and travel while they are young and can enjoy it. What's wrong with that, we don't all have to be millionaires when we retire to be happy. As long as people have some plan for retirement (besides bankruptcy.....which, no offense confettiflyer, but planning for loan forgiveness sounds like planning for bankruptcy. It's not something I would be happy living with. And what's the point of extra money if someone isn't happy?) For that matter, I suppose the few thousand dollars I throw each year to various charities and starving children would earn a lot more money in some investment fund.....but again, I wouldn't feel good about myself, so the loss of investment gain is worth the increase in self-worth I get from knowing that I share my blessings with others who have not been as fortunate in their life situations.

So my advice is, people should read a lot of different books, educate themselves about finances, and then figure out the best plan that which advance their financial standing (advance, not necessarily maximizing it), while also maximizing their happiness.
 
As long as people have some plan for retirement (besides bankruptcy.....which, no offense confettiflyer, but planning for loan forgiveness sounds like planning for bankruptcy. It's not something I would be happy living with. And what's the point of extra money if someone isn't happy?)

I'm confused with your thought process here, you're talking about retirement and loan forgiveness in the same sentence. How are you trying to relate the two?

Other than that, there's too much emotion getting mixed in with money...that's what messes people up. Whether it's overbidding/overbuying on real estate, people getting high off thinking they can beat the market, continuing to pay a decidedly upside down mortgage, or other emotional/irrational behavior.

My advice has always been, with respect to money...think and act like a faceless/soulless corporation, save your emotions for the bedroom.
 
I'm confused with your thought process here, you're talking about retirement and loan forgiveness in the same sentence. How are you trying to relate the two?

It sounds like you are not paying off your debt, because you are putting extra money into investment/retirement funds, with the assumption that you loan will be forgiven before you retire. If you are wrong, then you might retire owing loans (and having your social security garnished to pay those loans, as is sadly happening to people.) I believe paying off debt IS a form of investment/retirement funds, because it frees up whatever retirement money they do have (they won't have the expense of the loans draining their retirement budget)

Other than that, there's too much emotion getting mixed in with money...that's what messes people up. Whether it's overbidding/overbuying on real estate, people getting high off thinking they can beat the market, continuing to pay a decidedly upside down mortgage, or other emotional/irrational behavior.
My advice has always been, with respect to money...think and act like a faceless/soulless corporation, save your emotions for the bedroom.

Reality is, we aren't all Vulcan. Many people aren't faceless/soulless corporations, and if they try to pretend they are, the stress will eat them alive and cause a myriad of health problems (and possibly early death....or worse yet, think of the costs involved if they have a stroke and go on disability or need nursing home care!) Surely your logical mind can acknowledge that in many people (at least some people), the monetary cost of health problems they incur, by acting in a way contrary to their nature, outweighs the monetary gain of maximum investment.
 
There is no one "best" book, because everyone's situation is different, and everyone's personality is different. Take me, I'm a low-risk personality, debt makes me very nervous, so when I graduated from school (with very little loan comparative to today's loans), it was a priority for me to pay it off. I do take on debt, and especially when I was fresh from pharmacy school, I was much more likely to carry over credit card debt for more than one month....but seldom did I carry it over more than 2 or 3 months. Yeah, I could have in invested more, but to me the stress wasn't worth it. And some people's priorities are to live it up and travel while they are young and can enjoy it. What's wrong with that, we don't all have to be millionaires when we retire to be happy. As long as people have some plan for retirement (besides bankruptcy.....which, no offense confettiflyer, but planning for loan forgiveness sounds like planning for bankruptcy. It's not something I would be happy living with. And what's the point of extra money if someone isn't happy?) For that matter, I suppose the few thousand dollars I throw each year to various charities and starving children would earn a lot more money in some investment fund.....but again, I wouldn't feel good about myself, so the loss of investment gain is worth the increase in self-worth I get from knowing that I share my blessings with others who have not been as fortunate in their life situations.

So my advice is, people should read a lot of different books, educate themselves about finances, and then figure out the best plan that which advance their financial standing (advance, not necessarily maximizing it), while also maximizing their happiness.


agree cmpletley -

and what bidingmytime said - paying off debt is a form of investment - with a guaranteed payout of whatever the interested rate is. If I am paying of debt that is accuring at 6% - I make 6% on my money every time I pay extra off.
 
Here's a pharmacist doing his debt free scream on Dave Ramsey. He seems like a dink to me. :rolleyes:
 
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It sounds like you are not paying off your debt, because you are putting extra money into investment/retirement funds, with the assumption that you loan will be forgiven before you retire. If you are wrong, then you might retire owing loans (and having your social security garnished to pay those loans, as is sadly happening to people.)

Not quite. I'm planning on loan forgiveness in 8 years, with a back up plan of accelerating payments and paying it off within 5 years if the rare possibility that it is scrapped comes to fruition. I'm making more money than I thought I would, so the amount left at forgiveness time is probably going to be sub-$100k.

That puts me decades before retirement.

I believe paying off debt IS a form of investment/retirement funds, because it frees up whatever retirement money they do have (they won't have the expense of the loans draining their retirement budget)

Even not accounting for loan forgiveness or any income based repayment program (basically, a straight 10 year pay off), delaying retirement savings to pay off debt pushes the date forward when you start to pay yourself.

Assuming a finite amount of money and all you can afford is the loan payment or retirement, at the end of X years paying off the loan, you're debt free, but you also have zero dollars to your name. You can accelerate your retirement savings, but only up to a point. Remember, you can't go beyond the $17,500/yr (2014 figure, adjusted each year) until you hit the catch up period in your 50s. Over the previous 10 years (if you did the 10 yr standard), that's potentially $175,000 in principle alone you can put away in a tax-advantaged way. By ignoring that, you give up 10 years of market gain, any employer matches (free money), and the tax advantages of reducing AGI.

Not to mention if you get hit by a falling anvil and lose your ability to earn a salary, you now have zero dollars to your name. Being debt free won't help you there. Yes, it's an extremely remote chance, but saving for retirement (and possibly total disability) serves as a hedge for uncertainty. Cash is king, debt is merely an instrument.

Reality is, we aren't all Vulcan. Many people aren't faceless/soulless corporations, and if they try to pretend they are, the stress will eat them alive and cause a myriad of health problems (and possibly early death....or worse yet, think of the costs involved if they have a stroke and go on disability or need nursing home care!) Surely your logical mind can acknowledge that in many people (at least some people), the monetary cost of health problems they incur, by acting in a way contrary to their nature, outweighs the monetary gain of maximum investment.

Maybe I am a Vulcan, hahah. Negotiating finances in such a way doesn't stress me out, in fact, it's kind of a lot of fun. If I weren't a pharmacist, I'd probably be a bankruptcy attorney or something. This is why my posts on this are so long, I like typing them, it's fun to me.

I used to consult people who were underwater on their mortgage and many times my advice was to take advantage of state law and purposefully send the home into foreclosure. All the "paying your debts is a moral imperative" people on here might be squirming, but many years later these people have 700+ FICO scores and are able to buy homes again under FHA if they choose to do so. Had they followed their "morality" they'd probably still be underwater and stuck in their homes. Sucks to be those people.
 
Another debt free scream on Thurs Aug 28 at about 58 min: http://www.daveramsey.com/show/archives/

A couple where the wife is a pharmacist
$187, 152 paid off in 30 months!
It sounds like 150k principal + 30k interest on student loans, 3k car loan, 4500 credit cards
200k income
 
Another debt free scream on Thurs Aug 28 at about 58 min: http://www.daveramsey.com/show/archives/

A couple where the wife is a pharmacist
$187, 152 paid off in 30 months!
It sounds like 150k principal + 30k interest on student loans, 3k car loan, 4500 credit cards
200k income

Ha. You must listen to Dave as often as I do. Everyday 12-3 (MST).
 
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Yet another RPh called into the Dave Ramsey show on Tuesday Nov 25 at about 10 minutes in: http://www.daveramsey.com/show/archives/

$304k total debt. $230k student loans. Not really much advice besides selling cars, living on beans and rice and picking up extra hours to throw all of the extra money towards the debt. But this time, after the call, Dave blows his top saying:

"DON'T BORROW $230,000 TO GO TO COLLEGE!!! I WILL FIND YOU AND KILL YOU!!! OH MY GOSH!!!"

whoa...
 
Yet another RPh called into the Dave Ramsey show on Tuesday Nov 25 at about 10 minutes in: http://www.daveramsey.com/show/archives/

$304k total debt. $230k student loans. Not really much advice besides selling cars, living on beans and rice and picking up extra hours to throw all of the extra money towards the debt. But this time, after the call, Dave blows his top saying:

"DON'T BORROW $230,000 TO GO TO COLLEGE!!!
I WILL FIND YOU AND KILL YOU!!! OH MY GOSH!!!"

whoa...

The avg debt for 4 year of pharm school is ~ 150K (min)... If all the pre-pharmers follow that advice, at least 50% of the pharm schools will be closing down and they are not opening more schools.
 
The avg debt for 4 year of pharm school is ~ 150K (min)... If all the pre-pharmers follow that advice, at least 50% of the pharm schools will be closing down and they are not opening more schools.

Wouldn't that actually be a good thing for the profession?
 
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Wouldn't that actually be a good thing for the profession?

it would be a good thing for the profession for sure... but I guess people will not stop going to pharm schools until the wage hit 30-40s an hour...
 
Dave Ramsey doesn't understand graduate school or the fact that when you're in class and studying spending 60+ hours of your week just on school things the best you can do is work part time. And even so, you likely won't find a part time (or full time) job that's going to pay around 50k+ to where you need to take out 0 loans for tuition or living expenses. I think the thing he neglects to see is that the student loans are a type of investment, it's money invested to earn a degree that will earn you more money.

Much of his advise is not practical for graduate students.
 
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Dave Ramsey doesn't understand graduate school or the fact that when you're in class and studying spending 60+ hours of your week just on school things the best you can do is work part time. And even so, you likely won't find a part time (or full time) job that's going to pay around 50k+ to where you need to take out 0 loans for tuition or living expenses. I think the thing he neglects to see is that the student loans are a type of investment, it's money invested to earn a degree that will earn you more money.

Much of his advise is not practical for graduate students.

I think what Ramsey really is concerned about is ROI...
 
$304k total debt. $230k student loans. Not really much advice besides selling cars, living on beans and rice and picking up extra hours to throw all of the extra money towards the debt. But this time, after the call, Dave blows his top saying:
"DON'T BORROW $230,000 TO GO TO COLLEGE!!! I WILL FIND YOU AND KILL YOU!!! OH MY GOSH!!!"
whoa...

So Ramsey thinks murder is an appropriate answer to excessive college loans? What a psycho.
 
So Ramsey thinks murder is an appropriate answer to excessive college loans? What a psycho.

It is just a figure of speech I believe... he is a radio host and needs to dramatize things sometimes...

Happy Thanksgiving to all !!
 
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