Rumor that I am mentally ill, being called crazy by fellow students

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Everyones_a_rat

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Any thoughts?All of this has made me realize what mentally ill people have to deal with in our society. I hate this stigma of mental illness in our society, they are humans as well. Even if I had some personality disorder, it does not justify the attitude of medical professionals towards mental illness. I hope all of u learn to see 'crazy' people as human beings who are suffering. As far as I am concerned, my behavior is normal, I have NEVER had delusions, hallucinations, thoughts about hurting myself or others, anorexia, depression, etc. But for those who suggest that I have a personality disorder, II am wondering what kind of discrimination I would have to face, would a diagnosis limit residency and job opportunities?

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Colleagues have spread rumors that I am crazy
 
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If multiple physicians are concerned that you are mentally ill you probably should go talk to some mental health professional if only to see if there's some basis to their concern. I would be less concerned about the rumors themselves than your own well being.
 
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Rumors going around that I am mentally ill among students and possibly preceptors of clinical rotation. Any advice?
I don't believe I am mentally ill other than some mild anxiety, but because other people probably do for whatever reason, does this mean I can't practice? I am not worried about the rumors because I understand a lot of people are just a**holes and like to gossip, but I am more concerned about the impact these negative rumors can have on my career
How did you find out about these rumors? Also, what mental illness do they purport you to have?
 
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If multiple physicians are concerned that you are mentally ill you probably should go talk to some mental health professional if only to see if there's some basis to their concern. I would be less concerned about the rumors themselves than your own well being.

I refuse the idea that I am mentally ill, I might come across as weird (Idk), but I have never had delusions, auditory or visual hallucinations, suicidal ideation, etc that would define me as mentally ill. I have had some mild anxiety issues, but probably from 1000-2000 mg of caffeine I consume everyday.
 
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I would look at this from a different direction. Whether or not you are "mentally ill" is not the issue. If people are telling you that you are "crazy", they are responding to the way you are communicating / interacting with them. This is potentially a big problem that you need feedback / help with. Something about your interactions / communications / team performance is causing problems, and you need to sort that out ASAP. When you ask for help, you should find someone you trust who will give you honest advice and feedback. One piece of advice might be to get a clinical evaluation -- if so, even if you're certain there's no clinical issues at play, you should do so to be 100% certain. Perhaps this is all due to anxiety -- which you blame on caffeine but might be more complicated than that.

In any case, you should do something now before this becomes a bigger problem. Once you develop a "reputation", it can be difficult to undo it.
 
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You might not be mentally ill, per-se, but rather have a personality disorder, which isn't really a changeable thing. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is something you should be reflective and self-aware of. Look at the clusters, see if you fit, be honest with yourself.
 
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People can think whatever they want, work hard and be as competent as possible. They'll see it's just a rumor. If you are crazy, silence is golden...
 
My doc told me I have no issues, I was asking how to deal with this gossiping.
 
My doc told me I have no issues, I was asking how to deal with this gossiping.

You deal with it by changing the actions that are leading them to gossip about you, as aPD said. None of us can tell you how to do that exactly because we don't know you.
 
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You might not be mentally ill, per-se, but rather have a personality disorder, which isn't really a changeable thing. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is something you should be reflective and self-aware of. Look at the clusters, see if you fit, be honest with yourself.

There is something definitely wrong with people that have a true personality disorder (but the stereotypical "narcissistic surgeon" usually does not count). One of the things wrong being that they don't realize that they have a problem. People with true Axis II disorders are so much scarier than those with Axis I.
 
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There is something definitely wrong with people that have a true personality disorder (but the stereotypical "narcissistic surgeon" usually does not count). One of the things wrong being that they don't realize that they have a problem. People with true Axis II disorders are so much scarier than those with Axis I.
They do have an issue, from an outsider's perspective, but axis disorders aren't exactly something you can fix, so they aren't so much mental disease as mental deformity. True narcissist and antisocial types are some of the most terrifying people I've ever met, but can you call what someone is pathology if they are fine with it and it can't be changed?
 
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As noted above,
1. There is something that is unusual and problematic about your interactions with others.
2. People with personality disorders don't realize they are disordered. It's very logical to them to behave in ways that others find bizarre and illogical.
3. Get to the bottom of it ASAP or you will be let go as a "poor fit" with half assed efforts to "help you match in a better career/location"
4. Denial isn't going to help.
 
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They do have an issue, from an outsider's perspective, but axis disorders aren't exactly something you can fix, so they aren't so much mental disease as mental deformity. True narcissist and antisocial types are some of the most terrifying people I've ever met, but can you call what someone is pathology if they are fine with it and it can't be changed?

Depends largely on if it is causing an excess of problems for people around them or society at large. Also the idea that personality disorders aren't amenable to treatment is incorrect. Granted, the approaches that work do not usually involve pills and a quick diminution of symptoms, so I guess I can see why other folks in medicine might see it that way.
 
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part of the diagnostic criteria for Axis 2 is impairment of functioning and distress to the person with it

Bundy for example would have reported that he had no issues with his psychopathy from his perspective and enjoyed killing people, however he still met criteria because when he was caught imprisioned and sentenced to death he genuinely wasn't thrilled about that

All Axis 2 who meet criteria, which involves what I said, are not having a good time as a result of their personality disorder, in some fashion. They may not recognize however that they have a disorder, that it is the cause of distress, that there is distress, or that it is up to them to change. Often they see it as a problem without (the rest of the world than within). That said, Axis 2 includes a number of very different and distinct conditions that can be effectively treated. More evidence is coming out about effective treatments for borderline, that some people grow out of it essentially, sometimes the right factors life changes or stabilizing relationships (hard for them to come by) can help with. An example too are some people comorbid with bipolar AND borderline, not as infrequent as you might think. Some have theorized that some of the borderline traits develop alongside bipolar espisodes almost as coping strategies (splitting, black and white thinking, cognitive strategies to account for what could otherwise be baffling and seemingly random at times mood shifts). Treatment approaches have centered about stabilization of the primary Axis 1 and CBT for the Axis 2.

Another example would be Cluster C disorders. Fearful and anxious, the avoidant and obsessive types, to my mind, may be easier to treat than narcissim or straight up psychopathy. Antisocial and psychopathy are starting to look more and more almost Axis 1 in nature in that it seems that it may be biological based in the brain. My friend had avoidant because it was clearly beyond a social anxiety she had and she met criteria, and she eventually became distressed enough to seek treatment and counseling and improved. Contrast that with your happy go lucky antisocial disorder folks who enjoy raping or what have you.

So let's not put all the personality disorders in a box of can't be helped. With meds, no. Some more than others, yes. Difficult, yes. Bound to be entirely cured/stop causing challenges to patient, maybe not.

All of that was a side note on personality disorders.

I agree with others, like @Law2Doc , and that while I am usually the first on this board to be awfully apologetic about mental health issues in medicine, that medicine is often unfair, with unrealistic expectations, and just generally overly uptight, I'm with everyone here that on a practical note the most important thing you need to strive for at all times in your medical career is likability. I don't care if that means you are the fakest actor at work with the biggest fake smile and a kind word for the ****ers you would rather stab in the back.

All I know is not toeing the line and appearing normal will not do you a single gorram favor. You need to get to the bottom of this.

You need to ask for feedback. Total honesty with treating physicians, if you are 1st or 2nd yr you can make time for regular counseling. Get it. Hell, we could all probably use some. Friends, family, attendings, classmates, even if it hurts your feelings. Even if a 3rd or 4th year, if this rumor is already getting to attendings, the dean, higher ups, whatevs, you have nothing to lose to go to a physician, psychiatrist, PCP, whoever, and get them to sign that you need counseling for depression and go to your Disability Diversity department to have them accomodate you sneaking off rotation an hour or so every other week. Don't tell anyone else the accomodation is for mental health, you don't have to. Acommodation for disability and going to a doctor appointment is enough to say and won't harm your career as much as just continuing to draw attention in these other ways. I'm confident if you do a PHQ2 or 9 and that if you fill it with a glass half empty view you can meet criteria so use depression as your waste basket term and see what's up.

So make sure it's not you. If the rumor comes up, try asking nicely why they think so. Straighten up as much as you can. Smile, tell them thank you for the concern, let them know you were having a hard time with depression but you are seeking help and things are getting better. If they have any other feedback on performance, you'd love to hear it and incorporate it. This only works if you straighten up and fly right and start to seem normal to people. The rumors will linger despite all of the above, but if you know you've straightened up then you'll just have to shrug it off at this point.

In any case this sounds sucky and you have my sympathy. Not trying to castigate you here. I just want you to dance around the eggshells to everyone's satifaction including yours.
 
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Bundy for example would have reported that he had no issues with his psychopathy from his perspective and enjoyed killing people, however he still met criteria because when he was caught imprisioned and sentenced to death he genuinely wasn't thrilled about that
So if Bundy wasn't caught, he wouldn't have met criteria and wouldn't fit the diagnosis?

go to a physician, psychiatrist, PCP, whoever, and get them to sign that you need counseling for depression
...
I'm confident if you do a PHQ2 or 9 and that if you fill it with a glass half empty view you can meet criteria so use depression as your waste basket term and see what's up.
This sounds dishonest. The OP can ask for help and the doctor can figure out what that help is. I don't think the OP should decide that he'll just say it's depression because it might not be that. You shouldn't mislead the one treating you.
 
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On the spectrum, who of us is totally "normal?" Whatever that means.

I would seriously think about aProgDirector's reply here. Reread the reply reposted below and seriously think about it. It doesn't mean you are a bad person or that you are severely mentally ill. Everyone has quirks, and probably we all have streaks of various personality disorders. It's about how functional you are. So find out if it's your anxiety getting the better of you.
I would look at this from a different direction. Whether or not you are "mentally ill" is not the issue. If people are telling you that you are "crazy", they are responding to the way you are communicating / interacting with them. This is potentially a big problem that you need feedback / help with. Something about your interactions / communications / team performance is causing problems, and you need to sort that out ASAP. When you ask for help, you should find someone you trust who will give you honest advice and feedback. One piece of advice might be to get a clinical evaluation -- if so, even if you're certain there's no clinical issues at play, you should do so to be 100% certain. Perhaps this is all due to anxiety -- which you blame on caffeine but might be more complicated than that.

In any case, you should do something now before this becomes a bigger problem. Once you develop a "reputation", it can be difficult to undo it.
 
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So if Bundy wasn't caught, he wouldn't have met criteria and wouldn't fit the diagnosis?


This sounds dishonest. The OP can ask for help and the doctor can figure out what that help is. I don't think the OP should decide that he'll just say it's depression because it might not be that. You shouldn't mislead the one treating you.

OK, I didn't explain that one well.

We all know we have to come up with a diagnosis/coding even when it's freaking ridiculously premature to do so.

I'm not saying be dishonest or disingenuous or lie. But you will likely need some sort of label besides "normal" if you're going to get any sort of eval besides the likely 3-5 min facetime I'm guessing you had with your doc. I could be wrong and they know you intimately from babyhood. Anyway, you got into med school, so I'm not surprised if you seem normal enough to a PCP. That isn't going to be the same as how you come across or perform in the clinical arena.

You are saying your doc thinks you are normal and the rumors are causing you distress.

I can't tell you how you feel or come across, but statistically it's likely this is enough of a problem to get an evaluation given what are the rates of burn out etc for med students, and you don't sound like you're picking roses at the moment. Be honest. Don't put on a brave face. That's what I meant about approaching this with a glass half empty not half full view. Are you crying? Maybe tears didn't actually fall from your eyes, but if you were that sad and wanted to cry but couldn't, I don't think that's disingenuous for the stupid checklist to put down. Write that down in the margin then so you're "not misleading the one treating you."

I'm just saying you may "seem fine" or "think you are fine" but mental health is tricky, any psych will tell you it's not always something you're going to sort out in 2 or 3 visits, especially personality disorders where often insight just isn't there. So I'm saying I think it would be appropriate if you are very distressed by the feedback you are getting about being crazy or or mentally ill to bring up to a provider that you would like further eval, maybe a handful of visits to psych or counseling for continuity of care in case there's something you're not seeing about yourself. Peel the layers of the onion. Your career could be on the line.
 
So if Bundy wasn't caught, he wouldn't have met criteria and wouldn't fit the diagnosis?


This sounds dishonest. The OP can ask for help and the doctor can figure out what that help is. I don't think the OP should decide that he'll just say it's depression because it might not be that. You shouldn't mislead the one treating you.

I only meant to endorse depression if this is causing you depressive symptoms, in part, because your doctor is dismissing you as normal while rumors that could permanently ruin your career about and you are looking for answers but being told go home you're fine. I reviewed the PHQ 9 and the following:

over the last 2 weeks how often the following:
reporting that you feel down, depressed or hopeless about these rumors several days (which would be less days than the more than half option, and would have to be more than 2 I would say to be a few as opposed to a couple)
or
feeling bad about yourself several days

either of which will yield a score of 1-4 Minimal depression as opposed to a zero. So where are you at with this OP? You've mentioned anxiety.

anyway, going back to the thing about Bundy, to clarify:

the DSM IV (I know we're on V but whatever, I still think this applies:) defines that one criteria that is present for diagnosis of personality disorder is this:

"Significant impairments in self (identity of self-direction) and interpersonal (empathy or intimacy) functioning." Distress is also mentioned but not necessary as some disorders are ego syntonic (as with Bundy) vs ego dystonic (my distressed friend with avoidant personality disorder)

So where i went wrong was
"part of the diagnostic criteria for Axis 2 is impairment of functioning and distress to the person with it"
should have been "part of the diagnostic criteria for Axis 2 is impairment of functioning and/or distress to the person with it"

Before he was caught, his sadistic tendencies had been acted out on prior girlfriends who left him. Also his murder activities caused him some troubles with his main long term girlfriend who left him, he had been living with her and this led to him living out of his car for a while. His murder activities also interfered with his ability to keep a job. So, although he may not have felt distress over these things, I think it's fair to say a physician would determine that murder interfering with work, having a place to live, and close relationship such as with his girlfriend, would count as a significant impairment in functioning.

I have to write these very long defensive posts because of people on this board's penchant for short little ones that are pedantic and looking to purposefully miss the point or find flaw wherever they can rather than assuming what might make sense from a shorter post. I can see now how crucial it was to include the and/or distinction and that my post could not be understood without it. Thanks for that.
 
I have to write these very long defensive posts because of people on this board's penchant for short little ones that are pedantic and looking to purposefully miss the point or find flaw wherever they can rather than assuming what might make sense from a shorter post. I can see now how crucial it was to include the and/or distinction and that my post could not be understood without it. Thanks for that.
And yet most others don't seem to have to write long posts, with multiple posts in a row in order to be understood. Do you really think the problem is all of us or could it be that you're not clearly and effectively communicating on this forum?

As for this specific situation, it wasn't an issue of not saying "and/or." You said very specifically that Bundy met criteria BECAUSE he wasn't happy when he was caught and sentenced. This is actually a valid point to ponder. In DSM-IV, substance abuse or dependence had in its criteria that there were legal problems. It was removed in DSM-V because they decided that getting caught and charged was more a function of your environment (how much the police and courts care about your particular crime, how competent they are at finding you, etc) than any underlying psychopathology. So I don't see how I was being pedantic -- I addressed a specific point you said because I felt it was relevant to discuss.
 
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A personality disorder by definition has to be causing some sort of problem, or else, why are we pathologizing a pattern of behavior? Doesn't there have to be clinical level of impairment or distress or who cares?

I think I meant that the patient's subjective distress or perception of function isn't the end all for whether or not a physician decides if there is impairment. Lack of insight is a common issue and one that should not be a barrier to a physician making an appropriate diagnosis. Point was just because someone does not see their behavior as maladaptive or cause of their distress does not mean that they are not experiencing impairment of function or distress as observed by the physician.

So while many with personality disorders will essentially proclaim there is nothing wrong, my point, even in the extreme case of Bundy, is that these disorders tend to catch up with them eventually. If it never caused clinically significant impairment or distress, than it wouldn't be a personality disorder. So by definition to be a personality disorder the patient will be experiencing problems regardless of whether or not they are able to recognize that.
 
Some posters take more pleasure in being condescending and snarky and terse, and see this as superior to being mildly confusing and wordy but sincerely attempting to be informational and helpful. If we put our MCAT reading comprehension hats on, and look at author intent, I think we look over the above posts and sort that out.

OP - let this forum be a lesson to you of the kinds of personalities you are dealing with. People are quick to find fault, rake you over the coals, and if you have mental health issues or struggle with communication, you will need to take steps to protect yourself. If you are interested read thread "physician friend joked suicide" and my post there on how to obtain help.
 
Thank you I will be working on organization and summarizing.

Most humor has kernal of truth, most of my hyperbole is meant to have both. I'm sorry if that doesn't come across.

As far as advice goes, I am curious to what extent do you have experience personally managing serious chronic illness while a medical student and a resident? What advice can you offer on how to coordinate weekly medical appointments and work with the disability accommodation office to be able to attend them? Maybe you have something better to offer.
 
Is it because someone is bullying you or you have displayed actions concerning for mental illness?
 
All of this has made me realize what mentally ill people have to deal with in our society. I hate this stigma of mental illness in our society, they are humans as well. Even if I had some personality disorder, it does not justify the attitude of medical professionals towards mental illness. I hope all of u learn to see 'crazy' people as human beings who are suffering. As far as I am concerned, my behavior is normal, I have NEVER had delusions, hallucinations, thoughts about hurting myself or others, anorexia, depression, etc. But for those who suggest that I have a personality disorder, II am wondering what kind of discrimination I would have to face, would a diagnosis limit residency and job opportunities?
 
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If your "issue" was seen at the interview or noted as a concern in a LOR or due diligence calls, you won't be getting a spot/job at a competitive location. Why take someone with baggage when 10, 20, 100 other applicants have no red flags which could affect your performance?
 
All of this has made me realize what mentally ill people have to deal with in our society. I hate this stigma of mental illness in our society, they are humans as well. Even if I had some personality disorder, it does not justify the attitude of medical professionals towards mental illness. I hope all of u learn to see 'crazy' people as human beings who are suffering. As far as I am concerned, my behavior is normal, I have NEVER had delusions, hallucinations, thoughts about hurting myself or others, anorexia, depression, etc. But for those who suggest that I have a personality disorder, II am wondering what kind of discrimination I would have to face, would a diagnosis limit residency and job opportunities?

I'm not judging, diagnosing, suggesting you have a mental health issue but from reading the various posts you might find speaking with a mental health professional helpful. Many people do who are not suffering from mental illness. Various forums will diagnose you as worse case fast.

Best case from posts is you are experiencing interpersonal challenges with others and a significant amount of frustration. I work with a lot of med students, interns, and residents, as well as physicians who struggle with life challenges. It's a common issue in the medical profession and we lose 400+ docs a year to mental health/life challenges. There is NO shame in getting support from an unbiased professional who will not stigmatize, insult, or ridicule you, but could put the issue to rest for you personally and give you someone to at least vent to who will be objective. Even if you did have a mental health issue, it's usually something that can be worked through. If you see a professional individually then baring legal requirements to break confidentiality (e.g. danger to self/others, etc) then no other person has to know.

It's your choice but I do wish you the best!
 
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If your illness is egosyntonic, like most personality disorders are, how would you even know you don't have one?

How do any of us know!?
 
If your illness is egosyntonic, like most personality disorders are, how would you even know you don't have one?

How do any of us know!?

Good point. That's why I focused on the distress part of it. Not only is it part of the diagnostic criteria, and really makes sense it is (a problem isn't a problem till it's causing problems), but for many that is the only real clue they have that something is amiss. Of course, as you point out, often it's attributed to others. When I'm dealing with psych issues, insight is my favorite positive prognosticator and makes dealing with any patient so much easier. Even the non-adherent ones. At least if they know what's wrong, even if they don't plan to do anything about it we can be living in reality together. My work is like 80% done if all we are is on the same page in our understanding of the problem.

How to get there? The tack I see most docs use is to focus on what the patient is willing to acknowledge - get THEM to characterize the difficulties and invite them to wonder why the difficulties exist. When they focus externally as we are all often wont to do, you ask them if there is anything they may be contributing, able to control, or do differently, or anything they might imagine about themselves that may be bringing forth the reactions they are getting. If that doesn't work, you can at least see if they are able to postulate a theory about what other people are thinking/reacting to/imagining, if you can't get them to focus on themselves then get them to practice a little theory of mind if you will, get them into someone else's shoes if possible. If they draw a blank you might try a simple and neutral suggestion to start. This can get you nowhere of course which is partly why personality disorders are some of the most frustrating clinical entities.
 
All of this has made me realize what mentally ill people have to deal with in our society. I hate this stigma of mental illness in our society, they are humans as well. Even if I had some personality disorder, it does not justify the attitude of medical professionals towards mental illness. I hope all of u learn to see 'crazy' people as human beings who are suffering. As far as I am concerned, my behavior is normal, I have NEVER had delusions, hallucinations, thoughts about hurting myself or others, anorexia, depression, etc. But for those who suggest that I have a personality disorder, II am wondering what kind of discrimination I would have to face, would a diagnosis limit residency and job opportunities?
you just copied and pasted your original post from Nov 13. People have given you solid advice in this thread. It seems your biggest limiting factor is not seeing warning signs when they appear, and not being proactive in correcting behavior that seems to be unacceptable. Medical students do not go out of their way to call fellow students crazy unless something really stupid has consistently happened. If your fellow students think this of you, why don't you think fellow residents would feel the same if you do not change parts of your behavior?
 
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I'm not sure why mental health and career difficulties people feel the need to come here with judgements and discouragement. Keep on moving on keep the shaming to yourself.

Even if trolling, plenty of advice was given that could be of assistance to a student who may stumble on this thread with a real problem

Recap what we learned:

Strategies for dealing with this conversation
Introspection
Personality disorders
Strategies to seek mental health care during medical school and residency
Stigma and need for secrecy to protect career

I've seen OPs situation many times.

Burnett's Law here guys SMH can't believe

and people wonder why ~400 docs commit suicide a year, almost a whole med school, we have one of the highest rates of a profession.
 
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