Salary

[what?]

I am applying to neurology residencies and would love to know the salaries of practicing neurolgists. I have heard neurologists don't make much money, but i am still very interested. what have you guys heard about neurologist salaries and where they will be going in the future?? Thanks for all your help!

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[doc05]

On average 180k. Please do more research outside of this message board before you apply. Salary trends are a very important consideration that should not be overlooked.

 

[neglect]

On average 180k. Please do more research outside of this message board before you apply. Salary trends are a very important consideration that should not be overlooked.

I agree - with your advice to do more research. Furthermore, this is about the most useless question ever. Sorry. But the more work you do, unless you choose academics (even there - more stuff on the outside, more money), then the more money you make. So if you're in the office till 7 every night, do a brisk hospital consult business, give headache talks, then you are in the money. If you'd rather do part time, see worried well, spend time, then expect less. Averages only get you so far.

 

[Bonobo]

I agree - with your advice to do more research. Furthermore, this is about the most useless question ever. Sorry. But the more work you do, unless you choose academics (even there - more stuff on the outside, more money), then the more money you make. So if you're in the office till 7 every night, do a brisk hospital consult business, give headache talks, then you are in the money. If you'd rather do part time, see worried well, spend time, then expect less. Averages only get you so far.

I completely disagree. Salary is a very important question. Sure, you can do EMG's and sleep studies all day and make double what you want out in Kansas, but you would still only be making what a neuroradiologist makes working at a University in downtown LA AND doing research.

I've done some research on salaries over the past month and this is what I have learned. The average (~$170K) is what you should expect for general neurology including 1-2 days of EMG and EEG, 2-3 years out working in most cities and suburbs (e.g. Denver). If you move out to southern Kansas, expect about $30-50K more. If you are in Chicago, expect about $20-30 less. If you do neurophysiology, you can usually add another $20-50K depending on how much you do, and even better salaries can be obtained after doing a sleep fellowship. Headache and pain pays much like sleep does where your base starting is probably around $200K but then can go through the roof ($350K+) depending on your ethics, the demand, and luck.

Academic neurologists start somewhere around $120K when all is said and done, and then progress gradually over the next 20 years. Don't forget that they get certain benefits that private neurologists do not (tuition reimbursement for kids, malpractice coverage, tenure).

Stroke is in flux. I have heard of stroke fellows getting paid $150K starting to start a program in Michigan and $350K to start one in Fresno. I have also heard of stroke fellows getting paid $200K+ to join a cardiology practice. As hospitals will want to open comprehensive stroke care centers, stroke jobs will open up and pay well. Neurointensive jobs are usually limited to academics except for a few rare cases, so their salaries more closely match academics. INR salaries are considerably better, but again are in flux, especailly for neurology-trained interventionalists. If you go into INR, salary is probably the last thing you will worry about however.

I would like to hear what others have found. Most of my data come from senior residents and fellows choosing between jobs.

B

 

[GMO2003]

I am applying to neurology residencies and would love to know the salaries of practicing neurolgists. I have heard neurologists don't make much money, but i am still very interested. what have you guys heard about neurologist salaries and where they will be going in the future?? Thanks for all your help!

what about vascular neurologists/endovascular interventional neurologists?

 

[Rite]

what about vascular neurologists/endovascular interventional neurologists?

Vascular neurology is synonymous with a stroke fellowship trained neurologist, therefore the previous comments would apply. Endovascular surgical neuroradiology or neurointerventional trained people would have salaries more consistent with neuroradiology unless you are at an academic center. In an academic center, your salary would depend on which department your appointment is under, ie neurosurgery, neuroradioloy, or neurology.

 

[GMO2003]

Vascular neurology is synonymous with a stroke fellowship trained neurologist, therefore the previous comments would apply. Endovascular surgical neuroradiology or neurointerventional trained people would have salaries more consistent with neuroradiology unless you are at an academic center. In an academic center, your salary would depend on which department your appointment is under, ie neurosurgery, neuroradioloy, or neurology.

so it's possible to become an endovascular interventionalist as a neurologist and make neurosurgeon type bucks?

 

[Rite]

so it's possible to become an endovascular interventionalist as a neurologist and make neurosurgeon type bucks?

Depending on the academic appointment, your salary would be gaged on level of training and the amount of productivity you bring to the department. Even though it will take a minimum of 7 to 8 years for a neurology trained interventionalist to complete their training, the neurology trained interventionalist's pay scale will be slightly less until you can prove your productivity. It is a long road but a road worth going down if your interests are in clinical integration of neurology with acute therapeutics.

 

[bustbones26]

I completely disagree. Salary is a very important question. Sure, you can do EMG's and sleep studies all day and make double what you want out in Kansas, but you would still only be making what a neuroradiologist makes working at a University in downtown LA AND doing research.

I've done some research on salaries over the past month and this is what I have learned. The average (~$170K) is what you should expect for general neurology including 1-2 days of EMG and EEG, 2-3 years out working in most cities and suburbs (e.g. Denver). If you move out to southern Kansas, expect about $30-50K more. If you are in Chicago, expect about $20-30 less. If you do neurophysiology, you can usually add another $20-50K depending on how much you do, and even better salaries can be obtained after doing a sleep fellowship. Headache and pain pays much like sleep does where your base starting is probably around $200K but then can go through the roof ($350K+) depending on your ethics, the demand, and luck.

Academic neurologists start somewhere around $120K when all is said and done, and then progress gradually over the next 20 years. Don't forget that they get certain benefits that private neurologists do not (tuition reimbursement for kids, malpractice coverage, tenure).

Stroke is in flux. I have heard of stroke fellows getting paid $150K starting to start a program in Michigan and $350K to start one in Fresno. I have also heard of stroke fellows getting paid $200K+ to join a cardiology practice. As hospitals will want to open comprehensive stroke care centers, stroke jobs will open up and pay well. Neurointensive jobs are usually limited to academics except for a few rare cases, so their salaries more closely match academics. INR salaries are considerably better, but again are in flux, especailly for neurology-trained interventionalists. If you go into INR, salary is probably the last thing you will worry about however.

I would like to hear what others have found. Most of my data come from senior residents and fellows choosing between jobs.

B

You know, I hate to change the subject a bit but lets discuss one of my concerns. Right now most agree that the average salary is less than 200K with the potential to be higher. My concern at this time, as you have pointed out in your post, that stroke intervention obviously are making big bucks. So now, how many idiots, and I do mean idiots are now going to come flocking to neurology, a relatively uncompetitive and low paying field, all thinking that they are going to cash out as interventional neurologist as experts in stroke care? Sorry, its just a gripe of mine because these are the future idiots that I have to work with.

 

[Rite]

You know, I hate to change the subject a bit but lets discuss one of my concerns. Right now most agree that the average salary is less than 200K with the potential to be higher. My concern at this time, as you have pointed out in your post, that stroke intervention obviously are making big bucks. So now, how many idiots, and I do mean idiots are now going to come flocking to neurology, a relatively uncompetitive and low paying field, all thinking that they are going to cash out as interventional neurologist as experts in stroke care? Sorry, its just a gripe of mine because these are the future idiots that I have to work with.

I would not worry too much about idiots. 1) The time it takes to complete fellowship training to be qualified to do acute interventional work is a minimum of 7 to 8 years. There are easier ways to make money. 2) The people who are applying for these fellowship positions are no chumps. The neurology trained fellows are having to prove to neuroradiology and neurosurgery that neurology trained interventionalist have much to offer. This means these fellows come with much research and clinical expereince that would bar incompetent people from being competitive enough to obain a fellowship position. One may assume the opposite that this may draw bright egotistical maniacs who have the god-complex. But then neurosurgeons would put these guys back in their place.

 

[bustbones26]

I would not worry too much about idiots. 1) The time it takes to complete fellowship training to be qualified to do acute interventional work is a minimum of 7 to 8 years. There are easier ways to make money. 2) The people who are applying for these fellowship positions are no chumps. The neurology trained fellows are having to prove to neuroradiology and neurosurgery that neurology trained interventionalist have much to offer. This means these fellows come with much research and clinical expereince that would bar incompetent people from being competitive enough to obain a fellowship position. One may assume the opposite that this may draw bright egotistical maniacs who have the god-complex. But then neurosurgeons would put these guys back in their place.

I fully agree with you! I agree that the road to becoming an interventional neurologist is not easy but I do not think that will stop people from going down that road if they are chasing the holy dollar.

Who is getting the radiology residencies, the mediocre guy? Why is it that we all of the sudden see top notch students with excellent board scores going after rads, all thinking of course they are going to get IR fellowship and make big bucks.

Even in the world of internal medicine, an uncompetitive specialty, just look around these boards, there are people all of the time asking how much does cards, GI, etc makes. All of these people think that they can easily get into an uncompetitive program (and they are probably right), and then just get a fellowship handed to them. They don't mind that it takes 6-8 years because more time equals more money.

So lets talk about neurology. Its a four year program that is uncompetitive and low paying compared to other specialties. Right now stroke intervention is an new up and coming thing, I find it suprising how many attendings in practice are unaware of this. So when it hits, its gonna hit big! I don't give it long before most tertiary care centers have a few beds set aside as a stroke unit run and operated by critical care neurologist and/or interventional neurologist, with the help of neurosurgery, IM-critical care, and IR to fill in any gaps. I see this as the future for most tertiary care centers. At some point, it will dawn on people-------------

Pathology is too competitive now due to easy lifestyle
PM&R is too competitive due to lifestyle and the potential to make big bucks if pain fellowship
Rads is too competitive because IR make big bucks
Derm will always be competitive due to big bucks and cushy lifestyle
ER and anesthesia equals no patient management, nice

BUT HEY, now about interventional neurology?? Its new and big bucks, and right now even FMG's can get a neuro spot, count me in!!!

It just bothers me because what I see in the future is a bunch of smart neurologist that were top of their class sitting in an office 9-5 doing neuro exams and being miserable and hating their job all because there was not enough stroke/interventional fellowships to go around. These are not the jerks I want as partners or have to associate with in my career as a neurologist. Also consider that there is a definite need for other neuro specialties, unfortunately, other than perhaps neuro/sleep, these don't pay much more than a general neurologist.

Myself personally, I am all for stroke fellowship, because I love long hours of busting my a$$ in the hospital and enjoy procedures, most of all, I am a true glutton for punishment and feel that although I would make possibly $350K and can probably afford to buy every toy known to man, I will never have time to enjoy it.

So what can I say, I am a sick man, how many people can say that?

Yes the world is changing, yes, we are going to have to prove ourselves to neurosurgeons and IR but I hope that just like in the world of interventional cards, that in time other medical professionals will value the role of interventional neurology.

One more point to make, if any neurosurgeon or IR give you flack, as them one simple question-----

If you are having a stroke, wouldn't it be nice if you went to the ER ASAP at a tertiary care center that has a stroke protocol where an interventionalist is on call 24/7, whether that person be a fellowship trained neurologist, neurosurgoen, or IR?

 

[Rite]

I can understand your conern. However, having bright people within the field can only do good things for the specialty. Being top of the class and wanting to do neurology does not always equate with being a jerk (obviously there are those classmates who are gunners that did well but not a pleasure to work with). Ultimately, we can say there are good and bad personalities in all specialities. I think that just because there are people who will make specialiy decisions upon what they will be compensated does not directly correlate with their personality working with others. Many prudent individuals will have to make decisions about the many years they are committing to training: is the commitment to the training worth it. I will say it again, because if many of you don't know by now, there are mcuh easier ways to make money. If it is just about the money, I think those individuals will be plain miserable. These folks need to experience what it is like to work late in the NICU when a SAH comes into the unit. They need to know what it is like standing for these long cases such as coiling aneurysms that are part of the training. It is still work that one has to love to commit their time and energy towards.

 

[neurosign]

Average general neurology salaries after # years in the field:

$180,000 1-2 Years
$228,000 >3 Years
$345,000 Max

This range is for GENERAL neurologists, while neuro specialists (EEG/Sleep/Stroke/Neuromuscular/Pain/Headache/Epilepsy) make much more. Also, this is base salary without bonuses and benefits! Due to advances in diagnostic modalities and treatment options, the payscale will only improve in neurology and its subspecialties. So forget about the money and pursue your interests.

Here's a link to where I got this from:
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm#top

 

[Bonobo]

It just bothers me because what I see in the future is a bunch of smart neurologist that were top of their class sitting in an office 9-5 doing neuro exams and being miserable and hating their job all because there was not enough stroke/interventional fellowships to go around. These are not the jerks I want as partners or have to associate with in my career as a neurologist. Also consider that there is a definite need for other neuro specialties, unfortunately, other than perhaps neuro/sleep, these don't pay much more than a general neurologist.

...

One more point to make, if any neurosurgeon or IR give you flack, as them one simple question-----

If you are having a stroke, wouldn't it be nice if you went to the ER ASAP at a tertiary care center that has a stroke protocol where an interventionalist is on call 24/7, whether that person be a fellowship trained neurologist, neurosurgoen, or IR?

I think neurologist-trained interventionalists will have many political hurdles and ego issues to jump over in the near future. Neurosurgeons will all say that they should be doing the interventions--but of course, most of them would rather do spine instead. Some radiologists will say the same, but they would rather do diagnostic neuroradiology instead (better hours and nearly the same pay). So if they give you flak, tell them to go and do a NIR fellowship themselves. If a neurosurgery- or radiology-trained interventionalist is around you--well then, you just have to prove your skills. It is as simple as that.

I think you are right that the real issue is how other neurologists perceive the interventionalists. The NIR guys will make more money, probably get more respect from patients and friends, and show dramatic results on occasion. But they will also be working twice as hard, have worse lifestyles, and will on occasion cause disasters. I think most *smart* non-invasive neurologists will realize the trade-offs and have no issues.

However, NIR guys will have to realize the political importance of profit-sharing. It is used extensively in cardiology and has made them much more effective in all ways. Forget trying to make $500,000, when you could make $350,000 and share your income with the NICU/stroke guy taking care of your patients and the general neurologist who manages the patient in his/her clinic. This is a win-win situation really, since it increases productivity in the long run.

My advice? Don't sweat these concerns right now. Just get trained first.

B