Saturation due to Foreign Dentists?

[Zakl]

Why are we complaining about how much debt we are going to be in, when we don't even address the real problem. I'm going to UCLA, and OMG the debt after 4 years is going to be huge. What am I going to do after 4 years? Ideally, I want to stay in California, but California is super saturated with dentist, pharmacist, physicians, etc. Obviously, chances are I'm probably not going to be practicing in California or at least the larger cities in California. I honestly, don't mind competing with USC, UCSF, Western, Loma Linda, or UOP for a job in California. Heck, I don't even mind competing with dental students from other parts of the country. What I do mind is the fact that dentists from other countries are coming to California, and saturating the dental market. Of course, California is not the only state that foreign dentists go to, but I'm using California as an example because I go to UCLA. I know people are going to say, "Dentist from other countries still have to take two years of dental school." Now, let me explain to everyone what would happen if Americans went to other countries and saturated their biggest cities. Let me just say China, because I'm Chinese. If 2,000 Americans went to Beijing and saturated the market there, do you honestly think that the Chinese government is going to be okay with it. India? Japan? UK? Obviously, the countries citizen should have priority. How do I know that dentists from other countries are not technicians. They call themselves dentists in other countries, but how DO I KNOW!!!! HOW DOES ANYBODY KNOW, except the people who certify these dentists?

Anyways. It seems that America is the only place that doesn't seem to give a rat **** about their profession/graduate students. We borrow money that we never see while we are taking 4 years in professional school to practice at a city or place that we don't want to practice at simply because America thinks that places with a lot of dentist still need more dentists. Some schools even tell us that the population is growing, and there is going to be a huge demand for such and such. YES, HUGE DEMAND FOR DENTISTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DENTISTS WHO ARE ALL COMING TO AMERICA!!!! HUGE DEMAND FOR DENTISTS AT PLACES THAT NOBODY WANTS TO BE AT!!!!

I know in engineering there is a huge demand from other countries. But, in Health Care is there really? I know the population is growing, but so are the number of dental schools and the number of dentists coming out of those schools. It seems to me that America thinks that the dental schools in America are equivalent to dental schools in foreign countries.

This is my opinion, let's discuss this professionally. I may be wrong, but that is why I want to hear other people's perspective on this topic.

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[yappy]

I wish you could share some details about this. What are the requirements to go from country X to US and practice as a dentist? How many are actually coming to the US and how does that compare to 5 or 10 years ago? If anything poorer nations are "growing up" and there are new emerging middle classes.

I ask this because in UG I meet a guy from the Philippines, who was a dentist, and he told me his education is useless in the US. He was taking a 100 level micro bio course in hopes of becoming a dental hygienist here.

 

[hammoudeh71]

Do u think America will accept foreign dentists just because "they call themselves dentists" while they could be "technicians"?. FYI, other than the 2 years of schooling that they go through here (preceded by the potential years of efforts to get accepted), their foreign degrees are evaluated and verified by local u.s agencies (e.g ECE) that have a list of international accredited dental schools, and not because they call schools and convince them that they are real dentist. If America did not give your Chinese parents and ancestors the chance to come to the states and build their lives, you won't be considering dental school in America in the first place.

 

[Zakl]

I don't know, this was just a thought that came to my head, might a stupid thought. I'm just wondering. I need people to guide me to a right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to prove that my thought is correct. I just want to see what other people think. I'm sure other countries have better such and such. My argument is that people are still taking away the opportunities for US dental students to practice in the US. In the Philippines, I'm pretty sure you get to practice wherever you want to. That's the point I'm trying to make. Plus, we are paying a ton of money to US government, In the Philippines, are you paying $200,000 USD?

 

[Zakl]

Do u think America will accept foreign dentists just because "they call themselves dentists" while they could be "technicians"?. FYI, other than the 2 years of schooling that they go through here (preceded by the potential years of efforts to get accepted), their foreign degrees are evaluated and verified by local u.s agencies (e.g ECE) that have a list of international accredited dental schools, and not because they call schools and convince them that they are real dentist. If America did not give your Chinese parents and ancestors the chance to come to the states and build their lives, you won't be considering dental school in America in the first place.

What does my question have to do about my parents coming to American and giving me an opportunity? Your a dental student or dentist, you have a brain, you know that professionalism is a pre-req, so why are you trying to make me look bad?

All I am saying is that we don't seem to have a control of dentist from other countries all coming to America and practicing in the TOP US Cities, and leaving everyone else who graduated in the US with more than $200,000 debt. Again, obviously I know that not every dental school in every country produces technicians or whatever. I HAVE A BRAIN. I'm just wondering if there is any sort of control on the number of foreign dentists that can come to America and practice. AGAIN, most foreign dentists are not coming out with $200,000, and that is on the low end.

The only type of control I can think of is the # of international students a dental school is willing to accept.

 

[Shnurek]

Higher education is no longer worth it as much. The bubble will burst soon. Just don't be in massive debt when it happens because your debt won't disappear.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/36356

 

[BrutalViking]

You sir are a whiner. This is a free opportunity country. They go to school and take the licensing exam like any other dentist. Plus, it's not like school are accepting foreigners in bulk, it's a couple of "students" per year per school. First worry about being a good dentist then come back and bash those who are already dentists.

 

[lemoncurry]

As a Californian, I think the problem is that we are saturated, yet so many people insist on staying here and practicing here. I took a job in a different state and will likely be making more than many of my classmates who stay here, with a much lower cost of living.

 

[peanutb123]

Do u think America will accept foreign dentists just because "they call themselves dentists" while they could be "technicians"?. FYI, other than the 2 years of schooling that they go through here (preceded by the potential years of efforts to get accepted), their foreign degrees are evaluated and verified by local u.s agencies (e.g ECE) that have a list of international accredited dental schools, and not because they call schools and convince them that they are real dentist. If America did not give your Chinese parents and ancestors the chance to come to the states and build their lives, you won't be considering dental school in America in the first place.

+1

What does my question have to do about my parents coming to American and giving me an opportunity? Your a dental student or dentist, you have a brain, you know that professionalism is a pre-req, so why are you trying to make me look bad?

All I am saying is that we don't seem to have a control of dentist from other countries all coming to America and practicing in the TOP US Cities, and leaving everyone else who graduated in the US with more than $200,000 debt. Again, obviously I know that not every dental school in every country produces technicians or whatever. I HAVE A BRAIN. I'm just wondering if there is any sort of control on the number of foreign dentists that can come to America and practice. AGAIN, most foreign dentists are not coming out with $200,000, and that is on the low end.

The only type of control I can think of is the # of international students a dental school is willing to accept.

Aint no on here trying to put you down. He is just stating facts.

Here are the facts
1. They take the same exact classes as you and I DO in dental school.
2. many countries the dental school is 5 years. and after that they usually work for couple years or even more before moving to USA.
3. Once they are in USA they have to take Both NBDE I & II and get a certain score in order to be accepted into dental school. and its very competitive. Hence usually they do a masters degree in USA (+30k -45 k in student debt). While doing masters they usually do some kind of research(CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY)
4. Once they are accepted into 2 year program, Some school makes them repeat couple of basic science classes ALONG with the clinical that you and i do during our 3rd and 4th year. so they are over worked.
5. Once they graduate, unlike you and me if they are not a citizen or green card holder they are only eligible to work at practices such as the ones that only accept medicare and medicaid. aka dental mills. until they receive their residency. So they are exploited and over worked.
6. Yet they have more experience then their fellow dental students. there is a very systematic procedure set in place. You cannot be a technician and still pass NBDE both parts. every single thing they do has to be verified.

Upon all the troubles they face we have it way easy. From what i understand america is a mixed pot and if you have what it takes you will be well rewarded for you skill. If you wine and complain that ohh they are taking your jobs away etc... guess what, its happening to every single field. You cannot stop people from immigrating to US. just like your family every one wishes to have a better life and US is a land of opportunity and here if you work hard you will get it.

And btw you comment regarding people going to these countries to practice" India? Japan? UK?" i dont know about UK but the rest of those countries you listed pay extremely less for dental. They would be lucky if they can make 20% of what an entry level dentist earn in US. If its the other way around, i bet you will be the first one to immigrate to china. So just b/c you are very ignorant does not mean that they should start restricting people from pursuing their dreams. I know how crammed California is and guess what all you can do is move out of there to some other state and practice. its no big deal. There are still plenty of jobs for dentists and you will still be able to pay of your loans.

And your comment of is there a huge demand for health care? are you that naive why do you think new professions such as PHD in nursing, masters in nursing, physician assistant(some states you can practice without phy. supervision), DENTAL THERAPISTS are being created. Because there is a shortage. If the shortage persists their will decrease in quality of care provided.

 

[pseudosquam]

I found another thread where you've posted that flawed analysis. Here is my response again.

I agree that education is expensive and is fueled by easy credit; however, his analogy connecting the housing market bubble and education was sloppy.

Specifically, he compares the expected rising home values with expectations that the skills gained in a degree program are justification for overpaying. He explains that after the bubble burst in housing the expected gains in equity were not realized and the home owner was left holding the debt. At this point the analogy is wrong. The forces (easy credit) that dictate the price of education are independent of the income the skills gained will generate post grad. Indeed, even though the OP may overpay for his medical education after the educational bubble bursts, he will still earn physician wages.

It is more accurate to compare us students today with people who bought before the housing crash; but, bought with 20% down and kept their jobs in order to pay for their mortgages. We still get the house we wanted; but, just not a the better deal you can get today.

Higher educations no longer worth it as much. The bubble will burst soon. Just don't be in massive debt when it happens because your debt won't disappear.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/36356

Sometimes understanding the value of something is knowing the cost of not doing it. For most people the cost of not becoming a dentist or physician is greater than becoming one. Therefore, I would say it's still a good investment given today's poor job market and the relative high income and job security said professions enjoy.

 

[djeffreyt]

You want my opinion...I have no problem with Foreign trained dentists who come to the US, get trained in US dental school IDS programs and graduate from those school, take the required NBDE examinations and Clinical Credentialing examinations and then apply through the correct channels for Green Cards so they can stay in the US, work as fellow colleagues in our field while making a life for themselves.

This is called immigration. Not everyone that immigrates to the US is poor and seeking any job they can get to make money...some immigrants come with skills and abilities that can contribute to our higher level professions. Sure the US has saturation in the dental market in cities, this does not mean that the US should or could only allow foreign trained dentists to come, go through all the proper channels to become licensed, and then tell them to only stay in certain counties in North Dakota. That seems pretty unconsitutional...

I think the above poster who mentioned your parents has a good point really. I'm Taiwanese. I was born and raised here but my parents immigrated here. My mom got a master's degree here while my dad worked a crap job to make a living. Eventually my mom got a job in a company, while not a medical profession, it was a profession. Had the US stepped in and said, you came from somewhere else, you can't work in this profession or you can only do this job in this one county in Kansas, I think that would have been pretty messed up. Essentially that is what you are implying should be done with foreign trained dentists. They aren't just walking over and setting up shop, they still have to pass a lot of the same tests and graduate from a program at a US dental school, so there are checks and balances on their skills and knowledge.

Your first post just seems like you are more scared than anything else; it's understandable that the fear of a lack of a job in California makes you frustrated. If you work hard and look hard, you will find a way to succeed, but I don't think any of us in today's economy and today world can expect to have our lives handed to them on a silver platter.

 

[Saddleshoes]

Why are we complaining about how much debt we are going to be in, when we don't even address the real problem. I'm going to UCLA, and OMG the debt after 4 years is going to be huge. What am I going to do after 4 years? Ideally, I want to stay in California, but California is super saturated with dentist, pharmacist, physicians, etc. Obviously, chances are I'm probably not going to be practicing in California or at least the larger cities in California. I honestly, don't mind competing with USC, UCSF, Western, Loma Linda, or UOP for a job in California. Heck, I don't even mind competing with dental students from other parts of the country. What I do mind is the fact that dentists from other countries are coming to California, and saturating the dental market. Of course, California is not the only state that foreign dentists go to, but I'm using California as an example because I go to UCLA. I know people are going to say, "Dentist from other countries still have to take two years of dental school." Now, let me explain to everyone what would happen if Americans went to other countries and saturated their biggest cities. Let me just say China, because I'm Chinese. If 2,000 Americans went to Beijing and saturated the market there, do you honestly think that the Chinese government is going to be okay with it. India? Japan? UK? Obviously, the countries citizen should have priority. How do I know that dentists from other countries are not technicians. They call themselves dentists in other countries, but how DO I KNOW!!!! HOW DOES ANYBODY KNOW, except the people who certify these dentists?

Anyways. It seems that America is the only place that doesn't seem to give a rat **** about their profession/graduate students. We borrow money that we never see while we are taking 4 years in professional school to practice at a city or place that we don't want to practice at simply because America thinks that places with a lot of dentist still need more dentists. Some schools even tell us that the population is growing, and there is going to be a huge demand for such and such. YES, HUGE DEMAND FOR DENTISTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DENTISTS WHO ARE ALL COMING TO AMERICA!!!! HUGE DEMAND FOR DENTISTS AT PLACES THAT NOBODY WANTS TO BE AT!!!!

I know in engineering there is a huge demand from other countries. But, in Health Care is there really? I know the population is growing, but so are the number of dental schools and the number of dentists coming out of those schools. It seems to me that America thinks that the dental schools in America are equivalent to dental schools in foreign countries.

This is my opinion, let's discuss this professionally. I may be wrong, but that is why I want to hear other people's perspective on this topic.

I strongly suggest that you send this item to your Congressman and your 2 Senators.

 

[John Durian]

Yo, California is messed up anyway. They're implementing portfolio-based licensing, have the 1 year AEGD-option of licensing, University La Salle CA licensing, the opening of WesternD, as well and the expansion of PPID programs in *likely* all the schools (I know for sure it's expanding at UCLA).

As for the PPIDs, they have to pay around $200k for those last two years (or that's what the guy I spoke to said), and they owe about $100k for their schooling in India, at least. So financially, they're not much better than us.

But yeah. It sucks. But whatever. If you can't compete then move out. If you're scared of the debt, then go the military route, NHSC route, or actually go and work in an area that needs dentist (to help fight off those darn ADHPs/DTs). I think California is overrated anyway

 

[mixoma]

I went to university of colorado and they had an international program of 40 students, my program was only 52 students, this was a state funded school. In my opinion accepting foreign students is fine, give them a chance to live the american dream, but 40 at one school is ridiculous they should really put a cap on a percentage of internationals that a school can have in comparison to there american student body. It just shows how useless the ADA is.
As for the quote that the international degrees and programs are verified, this is true but it is done by the dean of the dental school and administration which simply wants to recruit more internationals for $$$. Most of the internationals had a 3-5yr BDS in dentistry. You tell me how this equals our 8 years. From my personal interaction with the international students at my school most are nice people but only a hand full of them were clinically competent and the others straight up sucked, pretty much 99% of the people at my school would agree to this. I just want to make it clear that Im not attack any international dentists and wish them all the best, I just think from an american dental students perspective the whole situation is unfair.

 

[Daurang]

I'm so sick of California that I left it years ago with no plan to return. As if there isn't already a saturation of dentists in California, the CDA recently accredited dental schools in Mexico and India. I'm sure those students from Mexico and India have a huge advantage over you guys cause their tuition is probably $10K/year and no college requirement? You work hard and do the right thing despite the obstacle, only to get screwed with more taxes to support illegal criminals and pay for their anchor babies' in-state tuition. Don't even think your governor and legislators and senators will do the right thing on your behalf. But the weather's great isn't it?

 

[charlestweed]

.... But the weather's great isn't it?

Yup, it's the beautiful weather in CA that attracts not only the foreign trained dentists but also the dentists from other 49 states. No one would come to California if its weather was hot and humid like in the midwest. Don't blame the dental schools. Don't blame the politicians. Blame the beautiful weather in CA.

Don't let this oversaturation problem in CA discourage you. Just work hard, spend less, pay off all your student loans as fast as you can, and you will be fine. Pay in full for everything (except for a house) that you purchase. If you have to borrow money to purchase things, you are living beyond your means.

My sister, who is a GP, started her practice 7 years ago. She makes way more than what most associate dentists, who work at dental chains, make….even when there were days she only had 2-3 patients on the appointment book. How? Low overhead, no HMO bs, and zero debt.

If my sister and I can do it, so can you.

 

[aces4dds]

Simply put, America is the land of opportunity. Of course foreign dentists will want to practice here! Like you and your ancestors, they just want a better future for themselves. What governmental policies and regulations decide for foreign dentists is out of your control. Don't worry about these matters, Zakl! Just work hard for what you want.

 

[Tontochico]

+1


Aint no on here trying to put you down. He is just stating facts.

Here are the facts
1. They take the same exact classes as you and I DO in dental school.
2. many countries the dental school is 5 years. and after that they usually work for couple years or even more before moving to USA.
3. Once they are in USA they have to take Both NBDE I & II and get a certain score in order to be accepted into dental school. and its very competitive. Hence usually they do a masters degree in USA (+30k -45 k in student debt). While doing masters they usually do some kind of research(CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY)
4. Once they are accepted into 2 year program, Some school makes them repeat couple of basic science classes ALONG with the clinical that you and i do during our 3rd and 4th year. so they are over worked.
5. Once they graduate, unlike you and me if they are not a citizen or green card holder they are only eligible to work at practices such as the ones that only accept medicare and medicaid. aka dental mills. until they receive their residency. So they are exploited and over worked.
6. Yet they have more experience then their fellow dental students. there is a very systematic procedure set in place. You cannot be a technician and still pass NBDE both parts. every single thing they do has to be verified.

Upon all the troubles they face we have it way easy. From what i understand america is a mixed pot and if you have what it takes you will be well rewarded for you skill. If you wine and complain that ohh they are taking your jobs away etc... guess what, its happening to every single field. You cannot stop people from immigrating to US. just like your family every one wishes to have a better life and US is a land of opportunity and here if you work hard you will get it.

And btw you comment regarding people going to these countries to practice" India? Japan? UK?" i dont know about UK but the rest of those countries you listed pay extremely less for dental. They would be lucky if they can make 20% of what an entry level dentist earn in US. If its the other way around, i bet you will be the first one to immigrate to china. So just b/c you are very ignorant does not mean that they should start restricting people from pursuing their dreams. I know how crammed California is and guess what all you can do is move out of there to some other state and practice. its no big deal. There are still plenty of jobs for dentists and you will still be able to pay of your loans.

And your comment of is there a huge demand for health care? are you that naive why do you think new professions such as PHD in nursing, masters in nursing, physician assistant(some states you can practice without phy. supervision), DENTAL THERAPISTS are being created. Because there is a shortage. If the shortage persists their will decrease in quality of care provided.

Excellent analysis.

 

[PikminOC]

It could be like medicine where the IMGs don't have to do any of our med schooling in America.

 

[usbigbird]

I don't know, this was just a thought that came to my head, might a stupid thought. I'm just wondering. I need people to guide me to a right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to prove that my thought is correct. I just want to see what other people think. I'm sure other countries have better such and such. My argument is that people are still taking away the opportunities for US dental students to practice in the US. In the Philippines, I'm pretty sure you get to practice wherever you want to. That's the point I'm trying to make. Plus, we are paying a ton of money to US government, In the Philippines, are you paying $200,000 USD?

Yes,I think your thought is stupid. Saturation is NOT due to Foreign Dentists. Actually there are tons of under served areas in the country, and you will see more dental schools will be open and more mid-level practitioners....

I don't think "people(foreign dentist) are taking away the opportunities for US dental students". Compared to medical field, foreign dentist is actually harder to practice in US than foreign physicians because the requirement of 2 years dental school training. The foreign MD degree works very well in the states, they don't need to go to medical school, and all the foreign physicians need is to pass USMLE and get match....

I myself is foreign dentist. I practiced so many years outside the US. I think I am overqualifed for the dental school here. I had totally 11 years dental training in my home country. I had a lot of publications in the international dental journals which even made my US dental school mentors surprised. What made me sad was that I still had to go to dental school here. I think if american dentists want to practice in India, China or Japan, probably they don't have to go to their dental schools....that seems unfair.

 

[Erhatstil]

Higher education is no longer worth it as much. The bubble will burst soon. Just don't be in massive debt when it happens because your debt won't disappear.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/36356

this doesn't make sense to me. how does an education that becomes less valuable have anything to do with debt? are we assuming that as health care practitioners, we will see less patients (those with higher education degrees) because they're making less money/out of work? then in turn, makes it more difficult for me to pay off my loan?

perhaps i've answered my own question. however, i'm not buying the notion that a bursting bubble will devalue my dds. even if the author of that article correctly predicts a shift from higher education to manual labor jobs, people still go to the dentist either way. the outcome of that shift seems irrelevant to me and paying my student loan.

 

[yappy]

You're correct in your assessment. It's a logical fallacy. Congrats on having the skills to see the fallacy of the argument being made.

this doesn't make sense to me. how does an education that becomes less valuable have anything to do with debt? are we assuming that as health care practitioners, we will see less patients (those with higher education degrees) because they're making less money/out of work? then in turn, makes it more difficult for me to pay off my loan?

perhaps i've answered my own question. however, i'm not buying the notion that a bursting bubble will devalue my dds. even if the author of that article correctly predicts a shift from higher education to manual labor jobs, people still go to the dentist either way. the outcome of that shift seems irrelevant to me and paying my student loan.

 

[Timpson]

No American wants to become a dentist in China or India. And believe me, these countries are not nearly as open to foreigners as you would think. Japan is especially notorious for protecting its markets from foreign influence. As for the education, I am sure there are some great dentists trained overseas, however, the ASPID students at my school are some of the worst dentists I have ever seen with a complementary lack of people skills as well. The foreign residents I have met seem to be pretty competent though.

Yes,I think your thought is stupid. Saturation is NOT due to Foreign Dentists. Actually there are tons of under served areas in the country, and you will see more dental schools will be open and more mid-level practitioners....

I don't think "people(foreign dentist) are taking away the opportunities for US dental students". Compared to medical field, foreign dentist is actually harder to practice in US than foreign physicians because the requirement of 2 years dental school training. The foreign MD degree works very well in the states, they don't need to go to medical school, and all the foreign physicians need is to pass USMLE and get match....

I myself is foreign dentist. I practiced so many years outside the US. I think I am overqualifed for the dental school here. I had totally 11 years dental training in my home country. I had a lot of publications in the international dental journals which even made my US dental school mentors surprised. What made me sad was that I still had to go to dental school here. I think if american dentists want to practice in India, China or Japan, probably they don't have to go to their dental schools....that seems unfair.

 

[BigSmiles]

To be very honest, the Foreign Trained Dentists end up paying the school almost double of what a student in the DDS program pays. A chair of a certain department told me and I quote "this school didnt even want an international dentist program, but it was losing money competing w/ all the other ones" ....Therefore, it is mainly due to the amount of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ the foriegn trained dentists pay that the school accepts them. That being said....dont hate the player....or the game....just hate yourself if you have to.

 

[mmasurf]

if you think there is a problem in california, try New York where NYU brings in 125 foreign dentists every year which is crazy cause the class size becomes 350. To just think about graduating 350 dentists not including other specialties is seriously not fair for the american dentists. Im sure no dental school in the world is willing to accept 125 american dentist and let them work in the country after graduating

 

[Silent Cool]

BU also has a huge International dental program. I believe per year is is >100 students. How many foreign dentists graduate each year nationally in the U.S.? Is it over 1000? 2000? That's a HUGE increase over the domestic students. The number of graduates I have seen is always domestic, and it is approaching 6000. That means that the actual number each year could be closer to 8000. Crazy.

 

[Timpson]

How easy is it for these foreign dentists to obtain jobs after graduation??? And where do they obtain financing for their loans?

 

[Daurang]

How easy is it for these foreign dentists to obtain jobs after graduation??? And where do they obtain financing for their loans?

They go work for western dental, gentle dental, aspen dental, coast dental, etc.

The banks will finance them the money for profit. The Fed in turn print money out of thin air to bailout the banks if the loans go bad, so the banks win both way. Look for some type of loan forgiveness in Obama's second term.

 

[mixoma]

+1

Here are the facts
1. They take the same exact classes as you and I DO in dental school.
2. many countries the dental school is 5 years. and after that they usually work for couple years or even more before moving to USA.
3. Once they are in USA they have to take Both NBDE I & II and get a certain score in order to be accepted into dental school. and its very competitive. Hence usually they do a masters degree in USA (+30k -45 k in student debt). While doing masters they usually do some kind of research(CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY)
4. Once they are accepted into 2 year program, Some school makes them repeat couple of basic science classes ALONG with the clinical that you and i do during our 3rd and 4th year. so they are over worked.
5. Once they graduate, unlike you and me if they are not a citizen or green card holder they are only eligible to work at practices such as the ones that only accept medicare and medicaid. aka dental mills. until they receive their residency. So they are exploited and over worked.
6. Yet they have more experience then their fellow dental students. there is a very systematic procedure set in place. You cannot be a technician and still pass NBDE both parts. every single thing they do has to be verified.

Im not sure where you got your facts from but most of them are wrong. I know this because my school had 40 internationals to my class of 50. I talked to all of the ISP students and know there program inside and out. Here is where you are incorrect.
1. They dont take the same classes as we do there program is only 2 years in fact there was many clinical classes they did not take like the 3 ethic/pt management classes I took they did not take (this mite be of use since they are from another country), there clinical requirements were also less.
2.Yes there dental school is 3-5years but this is a bachelors in dentistry (mostly theory) we all have a bachelors or greater coming into dental school. Out of the 40 5 had worked as a dentist in there country.
3.It used to be that they needed high 80's on NBDE1 to get in and they would just have to pass part two while in the program. Both tests are P/F so this no longer matters. I dont no of nay who did a masters or research to get in, the programs are less competitive than ours to get in.
4.Like I said there clinical requirements were less than my classes and I have never heard of any taking basic science classes, the school wants there money and to get them out quick (less classes=more money for school). They are over worked, this is funny, we all are.
5.They have no problem getting a green card and they are not over worked or exploited more than any one else, this happens to anyone working for a chain (I work for one), many bought or built practices after they graduated and our doing good.
6.You could be a high school student and pass NBDE 1 maybe not part 2 if you where smart and studied all of the available material and tests out there for a year. They have more experience than there fellow dental students? Like I said there were only a few that had actually practiced one guy had done a 2 year implant fellow and was specializing in endo, he was a rock-star but the only one in the class the rest where at our level and many were worse. So that was probably the most false statement you made.

After reading your post I have come to the conclusion that you are probably an international dentist or a dental student who is dating one.

 

[Fortatha88]

Why are we complaining about how much debt we are going to be in, when we don't even address the real problem. I'm going to UCLA, and OMG the debt after 4 years is going to be huge. What am I going to do after 4 years? Ideally, I want to stay in California, but California is super saturated with dentist, pharmacist, physicians, etc. Obviously, chances are I'm probably not going to be practicing in California or at least the larger cities in California. I honestly, don't mind competing with USC, UCSF, Western, Loma Linda, or UOP for a job in California. Heck, I don't even mind competing with dental students from other parts of the country. What I do mind is the fact that dentists from other countries are coming to California, and saturating the dental market. Of course, California is not the only state that foreign dentists go to, but I'm using California as an example because I go to UCLA. I know people are going to say, "Dentist from other countries still have to take two years of dental school." Now, let me explain to everyone what would happen if Americans went to other countries and saturated their biggest cities. Let me just say China, because I'm Chinese. If 2,000 Americans went to Beijing and saturated the market there, do you honestly think that the Chinese government is going to be okay with it. India? Japan? UK? Obviously, the countries citizen should have priority. How do I know that dentists from other countries are not technicians. They call themselves dentists in other countries, but how DO I KNOW!!!! HOW DOES ANYBODY KNOW, except the people who certify these dentists?

Anyways. It seems that America is the only place that doesn't seem to give a rat **** about their profession/graduate students. We borrow money that we never see while we are taking 4 years in professional school to practice at a city or place that we don't want to practice at simply because America thinks that places with a lot of dentist still need more dentists. Some schools even tell us that the population is growing, and there is going to be a huge demand for such and such. YES, HUGE DEMAND FOR DENTISTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DENTISTS WHO ARE ALL COMING TO AMERICA!!!! HUGE DEMAND FOR DENTISTS AT PLACES THAT NOBODY WANTS TO BE AT!!!!

I know in engineering there is a huge demand from other countries. But, in Health Care is there really? I know the population is growing, but so are the number of dental schools and the number of dentists coming out of those schools. It seems to me that America thinks that the dental schools in America are equivalent to dental schools in foreign countries.

This is my opinion, let's discuss this professionally. I may be wrong, but that is why I want to hear other people's perspective on this topic.

You know, you've hit on a touchy subject, Obviously, some posters are foreign-trained dentists who take exception to what you said. However, I think you're absolutely right. Foreign-trained dentists have certainly saturated certain parts of the SF Bay Area. I've been in practice for 16 years, and sometimes when I go to CE courses at hotels I'm the only one at my table during lunch who speaks English! But the real culprit is not the foreign-trained dentists. It's the California politicians, aided and abetted by dentists in academic institutions, who claim that there is such a shortage of dentists in California that we need to allow dentists from every corner of the globe to practice in California.

I'm not denying that many Californians are not receiving dental care. Sure, many residents of the Central Valley need more dental care. But is that because there is a shortage of dentists? Heck, there are even parts of Silicon Valley where some people need more dental care. But I can tell you, it's not because there is a shortage of dentists in Silicon Valley! You see, the Democrats in the Legislature and their dentist friends in academic institutions think that if you saturate the market, it will force dentists to work in under-served areas. But wait - let me figure this out. OK, so I just graduated with $400K in student loans, and although I would rather practice in Los Altos, there are already too many dentists there, so I'll go to underserved areas of the Central Valley or Silicon Valley. But wait! How am I going to pay my student loans when the residents of these under-served areas can't pay for my services? Well, the Democrat politicians and their academic dentist friends say that's your problem, you figure it out. Oh, and don't forget about the mid-level provider issue too.

Bottom line, California is saturated, and foreign dentists just make the situation worse. Smart graduates need to look out of state. It may not be your first choice on where you want to live, but being able to make a comfortable living vs. $400K in debt you can't pay down, you can't buy a practice, you can't buy a house, well, you need to be flexible.

 

[Member902507]

Though I'm a pre-dent, there are a couple of things I wanted to point out.

1) California has a messed up system for its dental schools on its own. For example, currently, I'm planning on attending UMich dental, and I'll be paying OOS fees for all 4 years, because Michigan will not grant me residency as a student. California, however, will grant residency to OOS students after the first year, so each student will essentially only pay $12k more than their in-state peers! That is crazy, and unfair. I know there are many states that don't grant residency, and some, like California, do grant residency after one year of education, but there needs to be a more defined system for this. Why is it that the Californians always get screwed over? (As someone said above, it's because of the beautiful weather...) California's state schools are renowned as it is, but the fact that they are some of the cheapest schools, in great locations, also makes them more desirable, thus preventing their own students from getting seats in the public schools. Maybe if the California government focused more on its own students, they wouldn't be AS much in debt as they are right now (I know they spend on other things, too, but savings is savings, no matter how big or little).

2) I have met many people who are internationally-trained dentists, some who were actually able to get into the IDP program, and many more who weren't able to get into any of the programs. A friend's mom was a dentist in India, and she said she took NBDE part 1 like 4 times, and even then, her score wasn't high enough to get her in. This lady is probably in her 40s, and said she'd try again sometime soon. Another person I met tried to get into school for 7 years straight, and kept on working on bettering her app, because she couldn't qualify for any other job here, she focused on dentistry and is finally graduating this spring. They said it's harder to get into the California schools (surprise surprise) and that NYU was easier, but starting this upcoming year, NYU is eliminating their IDS program entirely and has said that any foreign-trained dentist must go through the ENTIRE FOUR YEARS OF DENTAL SCHOOL (probably because NYU gets more money this way). I think that sucks, big time.

3) All of these foreign-trained dentists don't qualify for federal loans, so every loan they take is private. Many couldn't live in university housing either, and had to get private insurance as well. So that bites.

4) The reason they don't have to go through the "8 years of schooling" like we do, is because many of these foreign-trained dentists come from Commonwealth countries that follow the British schooling model, which actually makes much more sense to me than the American schooling model. In the US model, students go to high school, then go to college and pick a major (which can be completely unrelated to dentistry--mine has zero connection to dentistry), and as long as you get all the pre-reqs done, you can apply and enter into dental school, and complete dental school when you're about ~26 years old (if you're a traditional student). In the Commonwealth countries, students decide in their last two years of HIGH SCHOOL which field they want to pursue (medicine, dentistry, engineering, commerce, finance, econ, etc etc etc), and then they go to that SPECIFIC COLLEGE. Therefore, they will go to a dental college, or medical college, engineering college, humanities, etc, for the length of the program. Dental and medicine are 5 years each, while other "majors" are 3 years of college. So, the foreign-trained dentists undergo 5 years of dental school, which includes the basic sciences (chem, bio, etc,) + all of the dental school classes + clinic, and graduate with this by the time they're 22/23. This makes so much more sense to, primarily because you eliminate the time wasted in undergrad, regardless of how fun it was. These foreign systems are designed so you have decided on your career, and that's the school you go to. In America, we're blessed with so many opportunities, which also makes us confused (why do you think the average American undergrad student changes their major 4-6 times?), and even if we graduate with a degree, it can be completely unrelated to our career (I'm the perfect example of this).

5) My only problem with foreign-trained dentists is regarding all of this new talk about approving certain schools to have these dentists come from Mexico or India and practice without going through the IDP program. Schooling in these countries is not necessarily similar to what we learn here, or even sometimes relevant, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper to get into. Many people have told me that in India, you can BUY your way into colleges if you have enough money; I don't like the idea of this because these people aren't necessarily qualified or committed, yet are now able to practice in the US market without the proper US dental instruction. Would these foreign-trained dentists from accredited institutions have to take things like the WREB/NERB or NBDEs? This is something I'm really unsure about...

Otherwise, as others have mentioned, it's a free market, and that's one of the things that makes US so attractive. It's a blessing and a curse at the same time. And so is California, you love it, but you hate how everybody else loves it, too, hah.

 

[88845]

Though I'm a pre-dent, there are a couple of things I wanted to point out.

1) California has a messed up system for its dental schools on its own. For example, currently, I'm planning on attending UMich dental, and I'll be paying OOS fees for all 4 years, because Michigan will not grant me residency as a student. California, however, will grant residency to OOS students after the first year, so each student will essentially only pay $12k more than their in-state peers! That is crazy, and unfair. I know there are many states that don't grant residency, and some, like California, do grant residency after one year of education, but there needs to be a more defined system for this. Why is it that the Californians always get screwed over? (As someone said above, it's because of the beautiful weather...) California's state schools are renowned as it is, but the fact that they are some of the cheapest schools, in great locations, also makes them more desirable, thus preventing their own students from getting seats in the public schools. Maybe if the California government focused more on its own students, they wouldn't be AS much in debt as they are right now (I know they spend on other things, too, but savings is savings, no matter how big or little).

2) I have met many people who are internationally-trained dentists, some who were actually able to get into the IDP program, and many more who weren't able to get into any of the programs. A friend's mom was a dentist in India, and she said she took NBDE part 1 like 4 times, and even then, her score wasn't high enough to get her in. This lady is probably in her 40s, and said she'd try again sometime soon. Another person I met tried to get into school for 7 years straight, and kept on working on bettering her app, because she couldn't qualify for any other job here, she focused on dentistry and is finally graduating this spring. They said it's harder to get into the California schools (surprise surprise) and that NYU was easier, but starting this upcoming year, NYU is eliminating their IDS program entirely and has said that any foreign-trained dentist must go through the ENTIRE FOUR YEARS OF DENTAL SCHOOL (probably because NYU gets more money this way). I think that sucks, big time.

3) All of these foreign-trained dentists don't qualify for federal loans, so every loan they take is private. Many couldn't live in university housing either, and had to get private insurance as well. So that bites.

4) The reason they don't have to go through the "8 years of schooling" like we do, is because many of these foreign-trained dentists come from Commonwealth countries that follow the British schooling model, which actually makes much more sense to me than the American schooling model. In the US model, students go to high school, then go to college and pick a major (which can be completely unrelated to dentistry--mine has zero connection to dentistry), and as long as you get all the pre-reqs done, you can apply and enter into dental school, and complete dental school when you're about ~26 years old (if you're a traditional student). In the Commonwealth countries, students decide in their last two years of HIGH SCHOOL which field they want to pursue (medicine, dentistry, engineering, commerce, finance, econ, etc etc etc), and then they go to that SPECIFIC COLLEGE. Therefore, they will go to a dental college, or medical college, engineering college, humanities, etc, for the length of the program. Dental and medicine are 5 years each, while other "majors" are 3 years of college. So, the foreign-trained dentists undergo 5 years of dental school, which includes the basic sciences (chem, bio, etc,) + all of the dental school classes + clinic, and graduate with this by the time they're 22/23. This makes so much more sense to, primarily because you eliminate the time wasted in undergrad, regardless of how fun it was. These foreign systems are designed so you have decided on your career, and that's the school you go to. In America, we're blessed with so many opportunities, which also makes us confused (why do you think the average American undergrad student changes their major 4-6 times?), and even if we graduate with a degree, it can be completely unrelated to our career (I'm the perfect example of this).

5) My only problem with foreign-trained dentists is regarding all of this new talk about approving certain schools to have these dentists come from Mexico or India and practice without going through the IDP program. Schooling in these countries is not necessarily similar to what we learn here, or even sometimes relevant, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper to get into. Many people have told me that in India, you can BUY your way into colleges if you have enough money; I don't like the idea of this because these people aren't necessarily qualified or committed, yet are now able to practice in the US market without the proper US dental instruction. Would these foreign-trained dentists from accredited institutions have to take things like the WREB/NERB or NBDEs? This is something I'm really unsure about...

Otherwise, as others have mentioned, it's a free market, and that's one of the things that makes US so attractive. It's a blessing and a curse at the same time. And so is California, you love it, but you hate how everybody else loves it, too, hah.

That's seriously disconcerting to read! What is the ADA's stance on this? Please post some references to this so we can read more about these proposals.

In medicine, all foreign medical graduates have to complete a US residency (or at least a fellowship plus special licensing) to practice. I view the IDP programs as a similar mechanism for foreign trained dentists. Eliminating this requirement makes no sense and is a slap in the face to US graduates.

 

[Shunwei]

Thing about UCLA is that it actually expanding its international student seats as well. When I was graduated in June of last year we had 12 in our class. I hear this year they are taking ~25 in the 2017 class. This is purely a financial decision I hear, as from a supply/demand viewpoint makes no sense. The CA dental market is messed up beyond belief with the supersaturation, mid-level providers, and the opening of new schools. The argument I hear from some of my classmates is that it is sunny with beaches, but are you going to have the time/resources to enjoy that? I am currently planning a 2 wk vacation to Cancun with my girlfriend but I don't think I would have the resources had I stayed in CA and work in that market.

 

[Fortatha88]

Thing about UCLA is that it actually expanding its international student seats as well. When I was graduated in June of last year we had 12 in our class. I hear this year they are taking ~25 in the 2017 class. This is purely a financial decision I hear, as from a supply/demand viewpoint makes no sense. The CA dental market is messed up beyond belief with the supersaturation, mid-level providers, and the opening of new schools. The argument I hear from some of my classmates is that it is sunny with beaches, but are you going to have the time/resources to enjoy that? I am currently planning a 2 wk vacation to Cancun with my girlfriend but I don't think I would have the resources had I stayed in CA and work in that market.

Yeah, you see, academic dentists have a vested interest in perpetuating this "There is a shortage of dentists in California" baloney. Why? Because it means more money for their institutions and more job security for themselves. It's a conflict of interest. And many full-time dental school faculty couldn't make it in private practice and have to now hide behind the walls of academia.

Basically, new grads need to decide if it's worth it for them to stay in California. Yeah, the weather's great, and it's very diverse, and it's also very expensive, and it's hard to find a job. So now you know. You'll just have to decide what's best for you.

 

[Member902507]

That's seriously disconcerting to read! What is the ADA's stance on this? Please post some references to this so we can read more about these proposals.

In medicine, all foreign medical graduates have to complete a US residency (or at least a fellowship plus special licensing) to practice. I view the IDP programs as a similar mechanism for foreign trained dentists. Eliminating this requirement makes no sense and is a slap in the face to US graduates.

I had read that in Daurang's comment above, which I posted below. I was shocked when I read it myself...supposedly the CDA just approved this?

I'm so sick of California that I left it years ago with no plan to return. As if there isn't already a saturation of dentists in California, the CDA recently accredited dental schools in Mexico and India. I'm sure those students from Mexico and India have a huge advantage over you guys cause their tuition is probably $10K/year and no college requirement? You work hard and do the right thing despite the obstacle, only to get screwed with more taxes to support illegal criminals and pay for their anchor babies' in-state tuition. Don't even think your governor and legislators and senators will do the right thing on your behalf. But the weather's great isn't it?

 

[tingting]

I heard there are 300 dental schools in India. There is certainly no shortage of applicants for these programs.

The IDP programs are purely a money grab. They admitted it to me during my exit interview before graduating. Clinically the IDP students were a disaster at my school.

Medicine has it better because the profession is limited by the federally funded residencies. We have no such bottleneck. They will simply keep opening more IDP spots and dental schools as long as loan money is available. Dental school is a business, they could care less.

 

[Dentalidp]

..

 

[Member902507]

Clinically ID's might have been a disaster because out of those 300 schools (of India) there are only few which admit students based on their academic performance/entrance
exams/merit. They are inferior to other students who have graduated from good schools (Indian) in all the aspects in India as well. But I would not make a generalized statement.

And those International Dental Graduates of India, who have been selected in Dental school after going through very competitive exams will definitely not be so disastrous like you've mentioned. Like myself,

I have been interviewed at Dental Schools in US, and my clinical work was much appreciated by UC Denver & NOVA to name a few. (we are asked to sit for a Bench exam during interview to test our psycho-motor skills but not every university asks us to do that).

I wish that Universities here know this fact and select candidates accordingly.

+1. There are good and bad dental schools everywhere, and there are good and bad students everywhere. It's hard to generalize that people coming from a different country will not make for good dentists in the US. Yes, the method of studying might be different, but I'm sure those who try, will succeed here or anywhere.

 

[Medstart108]

Why are we complaining about how much debt we are going to be in, when we don't even address the real problem. I'm going to UCLA, and OMG the debt after 4 years is going to be huge. What am I going to do after 4 years? Ideally, I want to stay in California, but California is super saturated with dentist, pharmacist, physicians, etc. Obviously, chances are I'm probably not going to be practicing in California or at least the larger cities in California. I honestly, don't mind competing with USC, UCSF, Western, Loma Linda, or UOP for a job in California. Heck, I don't even mind competing with dental students from other parts of the country. What I do mind is the fact that dentists from other countries are coming to California, and saturating the dental market. Of course, California is not the only state that foreign dentists go to, but I'm using California as an example because I go to UCLA. I know people are going to say, "Dentist from other countries still have to take two years of dental school." Now, let me explain to everyone what would happen if Americans went to other countries and saturated their biggest cities. Let me just say China, because I'm Chinese. If 2,000 Americans went to Beijing and saturated the market there, do you honestly think that the Chinese government is going to be okay with it. India? Japan? UK? Obviously, the countries citizen should have priority. How do I know that dentists from other countries are not technicians. They call themselves dentists in other countries, but how DO I KNOW!!!! HOW DOES ANYBODY KNOW, except the people who certify these dentists?

Anyways. It seems that America is the only place that doesn't seem to give a rat **** about their profession/graduate students. We borrow money that we never see while we are taking 4 years in professional school to practice at a city or place that we don't want to practice at simply because America thinks that places with a lot of dentist still need more dentists. Some schools even tell us that the population is growing, and there is going to be a huge demand for such and such. YES, HUGE DEMAND FOR DENTISTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DENTISTS WHO ARE ALL COMING TO AMERICA!!!! HUGE DEMAND FOR DENTISTS AT PLACES THAT NOBODY WANTS TO BE AT!!!!

I know in engineering there is a huge demand from other countries. But, in Health Care is there really? I know the population is growing, but so are the number of dental schools and the number of dentists coming out of those schools. It seems to me that America thinks that the dental schools in America are equivalent to dental schools in foreign countries.

This is my opinion, let's discuss this professionally. I may be wrong, but that is why I want to hear other people's perspective on this topic.

You say lets discuss the professionally and yet you are yelling with capital letters. You say you are Chinese. If it wasn't for America being open to immigrants you wouldn't even be able to stand on your high horse and look down on international dentists.

You are clearly selfish. Yes, when you or your family immigrated to America, you think everyone should welcome you, but when you've gotten what you wanted you want to shut the door on others.

Clearly, you are afraid of competition. That can only mean you are afraid you can't compete with other dentists and at the end of the day you really only care about your wallet.

America was built on the idea of merit rather than heritage. You are the sort of person that if placed in Britain would whine about the rigid hierarchical structure of the country and your inability to get ahead based on your own merit while simultaneously ridiculing immigrants and trying to use your heritage to take advantage of them. What you are currently displaying is an incompetent student trying to use his heritage to get a leg up over the competition. Instead of whining about the competition, why don't you instead work on improving yourself?

 

[Fortatha88]

You say lets discuss the professionally and yet you are yelling with capital letters. You say you are Chinese. If it wasn't for America being open to immigrants you wouldn't even be able to stand on your high horse and look down on international dentists.

You are clearly selfish. Yes, when you or your family immigrated to America, you think everyone should welcome you, but when you've gotten what you wanted you want to shut the door on others.

Clearly, you are afraid of competition. That can only mean you are afraid you can't compete with other dentists and at the end of the day you really only care about your wallet.

America was built on the idea of merit rather than heritage. You are the sort of person that if placed in Britain would whine about the rigid hierarchical structure of the country and your inability to get ahead based on your own merit while simultaneously ridiculing immigrants and trying to use your heritage to take advantage of them. What you are currently displaying is an incompetent student trying to use his heritage to get a leg up over the competition. Instead of whining about the competition, why don't you instead work on improving yourself?

Whoa, being a little harsh here, aren't you? How in the world did you come to the conclusion that this student is incompetent? Based on.......what? You are a student in Britain who seems to think you know a lot about America, but let me tell you a little secret. Education in America is long and expensive. We don't have medical and dental bachelor's degrees like you do in Britain. To go to dental school in the U.S., you need a 4-year bachelor's degree just to get in, then another 4 years of dental school. That's 8 years of college and professional school, more than what you need in Britain. Many dental students in America graduate at the end of those 8 years with upwards of $400,000 in debt. And then some dental graduates go to 1-2 year general dentistry residencies for further training. These 1-2 years do not qualify as a specialty program. If they can't find full-time employment, how are they going to live and pay down their student loans? So this student is concerned, and rightly so, about the incredible level of debt they are accruing, only to face dwindling employment prospects and downward pressure on salaries caused by the oversupply of dentists, especially in California. Rather than showing that this student is incompetent, you are showing your ignorance.

 

[ahmadharis910]

Problem is foreign dentists entering dental schools for advance placements have 4-5 seats in each institute.
Than they have to score on the higher percentile close to 99.
Than they have to pay higher fees for those 2 years that they do they cant get loans.
Than most of jobs ask for americans.

Point about practicing in smaller cities. Noone wants to go there but a friend was telling me that in alaska a GP earns more than an OMS. 400,000 in wfew years.

 

[dentistmom]

Foreign trained dentists have unique histories, and can't be bundled into a group, in terms of training and experience. The dentist I shadowed is from the Philippines, and had worked as a dentist for 15 years before emigrating. He did the same two years of ds plus a two year residency before practicing in the US.

As far as allowing immigrants to compete equally with Americans, I like how Canada does it. (I'm no expert, just relaying what I know to be true, correct me if you know better). It's hard to get into Canada- you have to show you have skills they need, or you have to be accepted as a refugee- but once you're there, they want you to fulfill your potential. They don't educate people then send them home like we do here.

My take on your situation is, move to where your skills are needed. Immigration is a key component of our success as a society, and restricting people because they're too capable of thriving here is a bad reaction. Those who make bad dentists won't glut the market for long. Worrying about other people, and wanting to restrict their rights so your life is easier, seems like a cop out to me, and it doesn't reflect we'll on your estimation of your own abilities. That may be why you gave another poster the idea that you aren't a good student.

 

[septoplasty]

I don't think "people(foreign dentist) are taking away the opportunities for US dental students".Compared to medical field, foreign dentist is actually harder to practice in US than foreign physicians because the requirement of 2 years dental school training. The foreign MD degree works very well in the states, they don't need to go to medical school, and all the foreign physicians need is to pass USMLE and get match....

Lol.

Pass the USMLE? No one gets into a residency with a "pass", they often need higher scores than US MD students to get an interview, not a residency.

For around 11K residency spots (primary care), there are around 25K applicants, of which only 40% match into residency.

Imagine taking 4 board exams only to not get into a residency program year after year.

 

[dentistking]

Hello Zakl,
You wrote your opinion as to the saturation here in California.
Yeah it is an issue but not so much important in view of long term appreciation. This phenomena happens every where in the world; many doctors many dentists and many pharmacists including many lawyers...many CPAs too.

Speaking of the dentist saturation in Calif, in one word, i can say you are worrying about uselessness itself; you worries about nothing but your share in the future; not yet you are NOT dentist at all.
You just want to be dentist in the future. Your idea looks a bit silly and crazy at all! Instead, you have to focus what you have to prepare for the goal.
Sorry about the future as you uselessly worries. You have to consider going back to China for your goal to be dentist there and go for the non-saturated market than sticking to such saturation matter in the future here in California! This is much much more wisest for you.
Good Luck,Zakl.

 

[dentistking]

Whoa, being a little harsh here, aren't you? How in the world did you come to the conclusion that this student is incompetent? Based on.......what? You are a student in Britain who seems to think you know a lot about America, but let me tell you a little secret. Education in America is long and expensive. We don't have medical and dental bachelor's degrees like you do in Britain. To go to dental school in the U.S., you need a 4-year bachelor's degree just to get in, then another 4 years of dental school. That's 8 years of college and professional school, more than what you need in Britain. Many dental students in America graduate at the end of those 8 years with upwards of $400,000 in debt. And then some dental graduates go to 1-2 year general dentistry residencies for further training. These 1-2 years do not qualify as a specialty program. If they can't find full-time employment, how are they going to live and pay down their student loans? So this student is concerned, and rightly so, about the incredible level of debt they are accruing, only to face dwindling employment prospects and downward pressure on salaries caused by the oversupply of dentists, especially in California. Rather than showing that this student is incompetent, you are showing your ignorance.

I think you are more than dentist; a clear translator teaching to a toddler how to walk in a quiet corridor of library. I think I can recommend him to choose another line of job in his life. LoL

 

[wb1]

+1


Aint no on here trying to put you down. He is just stating facts.

Here are the facts
1. They take the same exact classes as you and I DO in dental school.
2. many countries the dental school is 5 years. and after that they usually work for couple years or even more before moving to USA.
3. Once they are in USA they have to take Both NBDE I & II and get a certain score in order to be accepted into dental school. and its very competitive. Hence usually they do a masters degree in USA (+30k -45 k in student debt). While doing masters they usually do some kind of research(CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY)
4. Once they are accepted into 2 year program, Some school makes them repeat couple of basic science classes ALONG with the clinical that you and i do during our 3rd and 4th year. so they are over worked.
5. Once they graduate, unlike you and me if they are not a citizen or green card holder they are only eligible to work at practices such as the ones that only accept medicare and medicaid. aka dental mills. until they receive their residency. So they are exploited and over worked.
6. Yet they have more experience then their fellow dental students. there is a very systematic procedure set in place. You cannot be a technician and still pass NBDE both parts. every single thing they do has to be verified.

Upon all the troubles they face we have it way easy. From what i understand america is a mixed pot and if you have what it takes you will be well rewarded for you skill. If you wine and complain that ohh they are taking your jobs away etc... guess what, its happening to every single field. You cannot stop people from immigrating to US. just like your family every one wishes to have a better life and US is a land of opportunity and here if you work hard you will get it.

And btw you comment regarding people going to these countries to practice" India? Japan? UK?" i dont know about UK but the rest of those countries you listed pay extremely less for dental. They would be lucky if they can make 20% of what an entry level dentist earn in US. If its the other way around, i bet you will be the first one to immigrate to china. So just b/c you are very ignorant does not mean that they should start restricting people from pursuing their dreams. I know how crammed California is and guess what all you can do is move out of there to some other state and practice. its no big deal. There are still plenty of jobs for dentists and you will still be able to pay of your loans.

And your comment of is there a huge demand for health care? are you that naive why do you think new professions such as PHD in nursing, masters in nursing, physician assistant(some states you can practice without phy. supervision), DENTAL THERAPISTS are being created. Because there is a shortage. If the shortage persists their will decrease in quality of care provided.

I feel for the foreign dentists and what they have to go through to get that certifications. They have my respect.

My only complain and from my personal experiences and observation of a handful of foreign dentists is that they are so used to practicing their ways of dentistry from non-US dental schools / outside of the US that their philosophies don't necessarily reflect what they learned from the US based International Dentist Programs.

It's possible that the dentists that I met are lazy/don't care or the IDP programs were limited in what they could teach in a short time. If I am a dean of DS, I would brain wash the hell out of International Dentists by having 1 yrs in class dentistry then 2 yrs of solid clinics.

I am sure there are excellent dentists out there (both US grad and International grad) who keep up with the CE,etc.

At the end of the day, we all deserve good dentistry works-not half ass jobs!

 

[steiner2]

Yeah, maybe the solution is to send a lot of undertrained dentists to their countries and see how they like it. Facetiously speaking of course. But that seems to be what they are doing to us. Make the licensing harder and more stringent is probably the best.

Above all, be more organized like the nursing unions. And by nursing union I mean NPs. Those guys are pretty shrewd and well organized.

 

[B_dent]

Yeah, maybe the solution is to send a lot of undertrained dentists to their countries and see how they like it. Facetiously speaking of course. But that seems to be what they are doing to us. Make the licensing harder and more stringent is probably the best.

Above all, be more organized like the nursing unions. And by nursing union I mean NPs. Those guys are pretty shrewd and well organized.

What do you know about foreign dentist !!! , did you make an impaction surgery when you were student ! I did , did you do a cyst removal surgery when you were a student i did , did you use implants when you were student ? I did , did you do a mandible fracture Fixation when you were student ? I did , tell me how many wisdom teeth do you extract when you were a student ?!!!! Did you try to extract teeth with other instrument because the specific forceps for these teeth are not sterile yet ?!, do you know that we should join a 2 year program to learn something we master at !!!! , do you know that we can do anything you can not do because we used to work with the least possible instruments ! , tell me if you were used to operate on people even i you knew that more than 50% percent of them have hepatitis c , tell me what you can do an extremly trained foregin dentist can not do ?!!!!!

 

[tuffnuts]

Whay do you know about foreign dentist !!! , did you make an impaction surgery when you were student ! I did , did you do a cyst removal surgery when you were a student i did , did you use implants when you were student ? I did , did you do a mandible fracture Fixation when you were student ? I did , tell me how many wisdom teeth do you extract when you were a student ?!!!! Did you try to extract teeth with other instrument because the specific forceps for these teeth are not sterile yet ?!, do you know that we should join a 2 year program to learn something we master at !!!! , do you know that we can do anything you can not do because we used to work with the least possible instruments ! , tell me if you were used to operate on people even i you knew that more than 50% percent of them have hepatitis c , tell me what you can do an extremly trained foregin dentist can not do ?!!!!!

Why don't you go do all that amaaaazing stuff where you were trained to do it.

 

[RxStudentatUB]

Why don't you go do all that amaaaazing stuff where you were trained to do it.

I am very close to certain this training took place in the town of Trollville. That ?????!!!! rant post gets a 2/10.