Scary thoughts vs Reality- SDN version

[instamatic]

First post- hello!

I have to say, I have lurked SDN for quite some time, but until this year whilst applying to schools, I have never felt the urge to post. Part of that was due to colleagues/former successful applicants often very very very vehemently voicing negative opinions about SDN.

And to be honest-- I get what they meant, but only in the pre-allo threads. Once I found the non-trads, I really tried hard to stay away from pre-allo because it is asking for an aneurysm and or heart attack and or stroke hanging out in there!

Unfortunately, I came over to the light a little late and am suffering from some remaining/lurking scared feelings from being over there.

I know it has probably been discussed to death, but does anyone care to add to the list of things SDN led you to believe you now know to be untrue? I'm not going to lie- I am proposing this mostly to relieve my own tension- but I do think it will help other lurkers and users who may be going through the same thing.

I can start!

1) You will never get into medical school if you do not have a 3.5+ and 32+----especially if you have been out of school for a long time.
- Not so much on SDN but on the "oldpremeds" forums, often people post their non-traditional stories that I find inspiring. One in particular, I go back to often- an "oldpremed" who graduated with something abysmal, like a 2.2 and got into his top choice (a top 20) with a 2.4 or something like that and a 30-ish.

That story in particular gave me A LOT of hope that it was true that schools care about PASSION for medicine and if they can see it in you and can have reasonable faith you will graduate and make it through they will take a chance on you.

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[instamatic]

I guess another

2) you must apply in June- first day the app opens- to get in.

I think if you are someone who is lacking in the stats department, this can only help you, but if you are a normal candidate and even some lower stat people, I think only on SDN are July or even early August submissions are considered "late and not worth applying."

Makes you wonder...how many applicants actually know about/visit SDN though right?

 

[vfr670]

First post- hello!

I have to say, I have lurked SDN for quite some time, but until this year whilst applying to schools, I have never felt the urge to post. Part of that was due to colleagues/former successful applicants often very very very vehemently voicing negative opinions about SDN.

And to be honest-- I get what they meant, but only in the pre-allo threads. Once I found the non-trads, I really tried hard to stay away from pre-allo because it is asking for an aneurysm and or heart attack and or stroke hanging out in there!

Unfortunately, I came over to the light a little late and am suffering from some remaining/lurking scared feelings from being over there.

I know it has probably been discussed to death, but does anyone care to add to the list of things SDN led you to believe you now know to be untrue? I'm not going to lie- I am proposing this mostly to relieve my own tension- but I do think it will help other lurkers and users who may be going through the same thing.

I can start!

1) You will never get into medical school if you do not have a 3.5+ and 32+----especially if you have been out of school for a long time.
- Not so much on SDN but on the "oldpremeds" forums, often people post their non-traditional stories that I find inspiring. One in particular, I go back to often- an "oldpremed" who graduated with something abysmal, like a 2.2 and got into his top choice (a top 20) with a 2.4 or something like that and a 30-ish.

That story in particular gave me A LOT of hope that it was true that schools care about PASSION for medicine and if they can see it in you and can have reasonable faith you will graduate and make it through they will take a chance on you.

I'm kinda new here and I appreciate your insight. I'm going to go look told posts because I am non-traditional and the longer I lurk around here, the more depressed I seem to get! Lmao. I'm anxiously awaiting IIs and it's hell being this early into the application cycle...and when people are like my LizzyM is 72 and above I'm just like #firstworldproblems or what?

 

[kraskadva]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ntrads-already-accepted-to-med-school.675835/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/below-3-0-gpa-support-group-thread.1015398/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-do-i-prove-that-i-can-handle-medical-school.1093425/

 

[QofQuimica]

I'd argue that most of what you see on SDN *is* true, but at times somewhat exaggerated. You're right: applying with a 3.5+ GPA and a 32+ MCAT isn't necessary to get into med school, but it sure does help your cause if you do have stats that strong. And you're right that applying in July isn't "late," but again, applying in June is better than applying later because of how interview invites (and often admissions decisions) are made on a rolling basis at most schools.

In general, applying to med school is not an either/or, all or nothing, kind of deal. It's more like a continuum: on average, the better your stats, the better your odds of admission. On average, the earlier you apply, the better your odds of getting an invite (and at many schools, the better your odds of admission).

Rather than looking at what everyone else is doing, you'd be better off focusing on your own self a bit more. In your heart of hearts, do you know that you have done everything you can to make your app the best it can possibly be and give yourself the best possible chance of getting an acceptance? If so, then you have to be satisfied with that and play the hand out.

When I applied to med school, I applied with the idea that I was only going to go through the app process once. I was looking at post docs at the same time I applied to med school, and had I not gotten in the first time, I would not have applied again. Because I only had one (self-imposed) chance to get in, I gave it my all, and I was successful beyond what I had ever imagined. That's why, when I see other people talking about making half-hearted half-efforts, I try to dissuade them from doing that. Getting into (and through) med school is hard work. If you think it's worth doing this at all, then it's worth doing it like you really mean it.

 

[mavric1298]

I think there is also a big difference between the stats of a non-trad and stats of a wet behind the ears graduate/junior applying. GPA only tells one aspect of your application, and from most nontrads I've talked to/worked with, we generally have a stronger application from other aspects then just grades (maturity level for example, and real world experiences). I think this skews the quite a bit. I think the perfect example is just from looking at the UW matrix of matriculated students (only use it because I know it very well); Last year 2 students with sub 3.0 gpa's one 8-9 average mcat and the other 10-11 average MCAT were admitted. 7 people 3.0-3.25 were admitted, and 30 3.25-3.5. So people with lower GPA's do get in; Then thing is, the acceptance rate vs applicant in each of those ranges, is actually about the same across the grading curve. For example, in the 3.0 to 3.25, the applicant to accepted rate is 25%. For people with a >3.75 and >42 MCAT, the acceptance rate is 28%. UW is a tough school to get in, being ranked #1 for primary care and #10 for research and all.

I've found on here most of the information is good, especially in the non-trad forum. I do take everything with a grain of salt however

 

[Pons Asinorum]

The problem that I see coupled with this sentiment is that many/most non-trads have geographical restrictions. With all that wonderful MCAT-desolving experience and "maturity" come families, and established lives, that make applying broadly difficult. Yes, a 3.0/29 non-trad can get an acceptance, but you are making a hell of a roll to say I only want to get an acceptance in one or two geographic areas, with low stats, and can't be bothered to get my app together in time (and am unwilling to wait another year) for a first-day AMCAS submission. As Q said, it's all about making your one shot your the very best shot that you can possibly muster. And applying broadly.

 

[mavric1298]

Totally agree, hell my app list is sitting at 22 school currently, and I'll go wherever. My fiancé and I both knew that going into this, that part of the process is being willing to do whatever it takes, and often times that means moving. We own a home, have two dogs, an established network of friends, and she has a great position at our hospital, but we both know that if I get in somewhere else, we'll just have to make it work. Part of the sacrifice, and I think people are sometimes hesitant to be willing to go all in like that and do whatever it takes to make it work.

 

[sammiesings]

I'd argue that most of what you see on SDN *is* true, but at times somewhat exaggerated. You're right: applying with a 3.5+ GPA and a 32+ MCAT isn't necessary to get into med school, but it sure does help your cause if you do have stats that strong. And you're right that applying in July isn't "late," but again, applying in June is better than applying later because of how interview invites (and often admissions decisions) are made on a rolling basis at most schools.

In general, applying to med school is not an either/or, all or nothing, kind of deal. It's more like a continuum: on average, the better your stats, the better your odds of admission. On average, the earlier you apply, the better your odds of getting an invite (and at many schools, the better your odds of admission).

Rather than looking at what everyone else is doing, you'd be better off focusing on your own self a bit more. In your heart of hearts, do you know that you have done everything you can to make your app the best it can possibly be and give yourself the best possible chance of getting an acceptance? If so, then you have to be satisfied with that and play the hand out.

When I applied to med school, I applied with the idea that I was only going to go through the app process once. I was looking at post docs at the same time I applied to med school, and had I not gotten in the first time, I would not have applied again. Because I only had one (self-imposed) chance to get in, I gave it my all, and I was successful beyond what I had ever imagined. That's why, when I see other people talking about making half-hearted half-efforts, I try to dissuade them from doing that. Getting into (and through) med school is hard work. If you think it's worth doing this at all, then it's worth doing it like you really mean it.

I definitely agree with the sentiments in this post.

However, as a reapplicant, I think I can add a little something about how SDN interferes in the ability of a person to do said "Give it all you got for the app".

I agree with OP that you don't need to have a "perfect" application with high stats and early submission and although I really think you should do it, I think there are bigger issues with how SDN can skew someone's perspective.

Personally, the only successful applicants I know, either didn't know what SDN was or like OP's friends, stayed as far away from it as possible. (I don't know a ton of different applicants but that's besides the point)

Those of us who are nontraditional and/or have lower stats, can be easily discouraged by SDN. I for one, on my worst days of self-doubting the first application cycle, would see something on SDN that could have been innocuous and/or completely unrelated to who I was as an applicant and I could easily spiral into a giant pool of "wtf am I even doing? if that person couldn't get in and/or if that person is what they interview how in the eff do I expect to get in?!?!?"

When in fact, I was comparing myself to those who had just graduated from college, and granted some of these folks are big bad and impressive, the reality is that most of the pre-allo threads are chalk full of students who are very similar to one another in life experiences, research and clinical experience and stats. So in their case, I do think it is a very valid point that stats matter/admission date matters. They are competing against a very similar group of people.

And although I do not know if admissions committees will look at someone like me differently than one of those students, I sure as heck hope they will. I hope that it will matter that I have done some really unique things research-wise and clinically---and not only that, but I hope they can see that I have poured my soul into each and every thing on my application, not just for the sake of the application, but because medicine is my passion and I am dedicated to it before/during/after admission and/or enrollment in medical school. And I hope to heck it matters that I stuck with it for many years post-undergrad. I hope that makes it so I am "unique/different" from the majority of pre-allo SDNers.

To do what @QofQuimica very wisely suggested, I should have stayed off the pre-allo and school-specific threads the first time around. I shouldn't have gotten sucked up into the comparison game. Because even if its valid, it did me no favors in putting my best foot forward.

So basically....there is a large percent chance that I may be kidding myself completely, but it helps me get through the periods of self-doubt. And hey, whatever works, right?

 

[ImmunoLove]

I definitely agree with the sentiments in this post.

However, as a reapplicant, I think I can add a little something about how SDN interferes in the ability of a person to do said "Give it all you got for the app".

I agree with OP that you don't need to have a "perfect" application with high stats and early submission and although I really think you should do it, I think there are bigger issues with how SDN can skew someone's perspective.

Personally, the only successful applicants I know, either didn't know what SDN was or like OP's friends, stayed as far away from it as possible. (I don't know a ton of different applicants but that's besides the point)

Those of us who are nontraditional and/or have lower stats, can be easily discouraged by SDN. I for one, on my worst days of self-doubting the first application cycle, would see something on SDN that could have been innocuous and/or completely unrelated to who I was as an applicant and I could easily spiral into a giant pool of "wtf am I even doing? if that person couldn't get in and/or if that person is what they interview how in the eff do I expect to get in?!?!?"

When in fact, I was comparing myself to those who had just graduated from college, and granted some of these folks are big bad and impressive, the reality is that most of the pre-allo threads are chalk full of students who are very similar to one another in life experiences, research and clinical experience and stats. So in their case, I do think it is a very valid point that stats matter/admission date matters. They are competing against a very similar group of people.

And although I do not know if admissions committees will look at someone like me differently than one of those students, I sure as heck hope they will. I hope that it will matter that I have done some really unique things research-wise and clinically---and not only that, but I hope they can see that I have poured my soul into each and every thing on my application, not just for the sake of the application, but because medicine is my passion and I am dedicated to it before/during/after admission and/or enrollment in medical school. And I hope to heck it matters that I stuck with it for many years post-undergrad. I hope that makes it so I am "unique/different" from the majority of pre-allo SDNers.

To do what @QofQuimica very wisely suggested, I should have stayed off the pre-allo and school-specific threads the first time around. I shouldn't have gotten sucked up into the comparison game. Because even if its valid, it did me no favors in putting my best foot forward.

So basically....there is a large percent chance that I may be kidding myself completely, but it helps me get through the periods of self-doubt. And hey, whatever works, right?

Oh, yes, the giant pool. Swimming in it now. Getting out though. Can't seem to figure out how I always end up back in it, however....

 

[sammiesings]

Oh, yes, the giant pool. Swimming in it now. Getting out though. Can't seem to figure out how I always end up back in it, however....

Comes with the whole process, I think. Hang in there!

 

[Nasrudin]

For anyone who has to break a mold. Or defy a statistic. Or overcome considerable ground against your competition. The mental toughness it takes to keep at it, is what will make the difference. Sdn averages and norms can be daunting. But so is what you're trying to do.

The wrong dose at the wrong time might be too much. So take a break. Otherwise use it as motivation. I can remember using anger and frustration with conjured and imagined and perhaps occasionally real sdn enemies to get me up in the morning before dawn to study before work. Take their Lizzy M score and shove it up their @sses.

To this end, I love to read ganster @ss God quotes: To (you) belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste--Deuteronomy 32:35. See God knows how to motivate. Revenge tastes sweet as honey. People who rob themselves of a well constructed revenge theme that is years in the making and comprises a large portion of their lives are f'n missing out.

As far as the practical aspects. I learned everything about how to apply here. Literally everything. Such that the only mentors I needed were those who would endorse me for the next level of applications.

 

[Goro]

I am very pro-non-trad, and have pointed out repeatedly that there are med schools that reward reinvention, But the numbers below either belong to URMs, people with really compelling stories, legacies, or people with a very large donation check in hand. Successful applicants whose GPAs fall into the <10th %ile for MD schools tend to be either the above, or, more importantly, non-trads who have rescued their GPAs with a strong rising trend, or post-bac, but who still couldn't get their cGPAs much higher due to earlier damage.



Last year 2 students with sub 3.0 gpa's one 8-9 average mcat and the other 10-11 average MCAT were admitted. 7 people 3.0-3.25 were admitted, and 30 3.25-3.5. So people with lower GPA's do get in; Then thing is, the acceptance rate vs applicant in each of those ranges, is actually about the same across the grading curve. For example, in the 3.0 to 3.25, the applicant to accepted rate is 25%. For people with a >3.75 and >42 MCAT, the acceptance rate is 28%.

 

[sammiesings]

I am very pro-non-trad, and have pointed out repeatedly that there are med schools that reward reinvention, But the numbers below either belong to URMs, people with really compelling stories, legacies, or people with a very large donation check in hand. Successful applicants whose GPAs fall into the <10th %ile for MD schools tend to be either the above, or, more importantly, non-trads who have rescued their GPAs with a strong rising trend, or post-bac, but who still couldn't get their cGPAs much higher due to earlier damage.



Last year 2 students with sub 3.0 gpa's one 8-9 average mcat and the other 10-11 average MCAT were admitted. 7 people 3.0-3.25 were admitted, and 30 3.25-3.5. So people with lower GPA's do get in; Then thing is, the acceptance rate vs applicant in each of those ranges, is actually about the same across the grading curve. For example, in the 3.0 to 3.25, the applicant to accepted rate is 25%. For people with a >3.75 and >42 MCAT, the acceptance rate is 28%.

Bolded= there is hope!!

 

[ImmunoLove]

Bolded= there is hope!!

agreed! @Goro, or anyone else who would know, would you mind listing/elucidating which schools value "reinvention", so to speak? I know they've been listed before, but I can't recall where to find that thread!

 

[Goro]

High post-bac GPA + Good MCAT (>33) can buy love at: SUNY-Upstate, Case, U Miami, Drexel, Rosy Franklin, Duke, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Albany, BU Tufts, NYMC, and possibly Wayne State.

I believe that many state schools will also go for this, as well as all DO programs, and the MCAT just needs to be in the high 20s.

agreed! @Goro, or anyone else who would know, would you mind listing/elucidating which schools value "reinvention", so to speak? I know they've been listed before, but I can't recall where to find that thread!

 

[ImmunoLove]

High post-bac GPA + Good MCAT (>33) can buy love at: SUNY-Upstate, Case, U Miami, Drexel, Rosy Franklin, Duke, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Albany, BU Tufts, NYMC, and possibly Wayne State.

I believe that many state schools will also go for this, as well as all DO programs, and the MCAT just needs to be in the high 20s.

Thanks Goro! Now to figure out a way around the 3.0 screen at some of those school, lol...

In my professional experience, I've not seen any difference between DO or MD in the practical sense: they're all doctors or surgeons or researchers or whatever. That being said, I don't actually know much (or anything) about DO programs, or how the differ in any major way from MD programs etc. I'm looking into them hard now, though, that's for sure. I don't really care what initials come after my name, so long as I can do what I love.

 

[ridethecliche]

I don't think there's any harm in working hard towards a goal, but it's important to remember that some of the people that got in with stats on the lower end of the spectrum had exceptional apps. The exceptions don't make the norm, and while things worked out for them it's silly to act like it will work out for everyone. What I'm trying to say is that it's important to be realistic during the process.

Someone commented earlier about SDN wisdom re:applying early. I'm not sure, but this can essentially move the application cycle up 1-2 months for many people. How would you feel if you got atleast one acceptance by november or so? For the people that interview in august/sept, this is a real possibility. For those whose applications are complete at the end of august (like me), this is probably going to be rare.

 

[Nasrudin]

I don't think there's any harm in working hard towards a goal, but it's important to remember that some of the people that got in with stats on the lower end of the spectrum had exceptional apps. The exceptions don't make the norm, and while things worked out for them it's silly to act like it will work out for everyone. What I'm trying to say is that it's important to be realistic during the process.

Someone commented earlier about SDN wisdom re:applying early. I'm not sure, but this can essentially move the application cycle up 1-2 months for many people. How would you feel if you got atleast one acceptance by november or so? For the people that interview in august/sept, this is a real possibility. For those whose applications are complete at the end of august (like me), this is probably going to be rare.

Well, idk what you mean by lower end, but I was and I don't think being "exceptional" is like having some mysterious power.

Like Goro indicated, reinvention is real. Someone who can teach themselves algebra in their late 20's so that they can take a science class and then put together years of this with near straight A's and get a decent MCAT (as I did) can survive medical school. Even if their sum total is not great.

Working exceptionally hard can make you exceptional in more cases than not.

Within reason. You really have to prove it. And still be within reasonable range of the competition.

But this is what makes giving advice a faulty venture. The person who will get up before dawn and burn the midnight lamp to pursue a goal will do it despite your discouragement. Whereas people who need tons of encouragement should go into an allied health field. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[ridethecliche]

My point is that the exception doesn't make the rule and the people that actually turn themselves around to become attractive candidate are few and far between.

 

[Nasrudin]

true.