School Psychology (MA vs PhD/PsyD)

[Aestheticism]

Back Again
Quick Question:

Is a school psychologist an actual licensed psychologist or a licensed counselor at the master's level?

I know you need a doctorate to be considered a doctor but some of the programs I research are giving false hope about this. They make it seem as though you will be a psychologist after the masters. But I read in some states you can practice as a psychologist with a masters? Very confused.

And also, how different are combined School/Clinical programs from a regular School Psychology program?

Thank you.

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[deleted343839]

Yes, there is a sort of loophole that allows a person with a master's degree in school psychology to hold the title of "school psychologist." In this case, you would not be able call yourself a psychologist outside the school setting. And, not that it really matters, but you would not be addressed as "doctor" in or out of the school since you would not hold a doctoral degree.

Otherwise, in most states the term "psychologist" is reserved for people who hold a doctoral degree from an appropriate training program in clinical, counseling, or educational psychology.

 

[Aestheticism]

Yes, there is a sort of loophole that allows a person with a master's degree in school psychology to hold the title of "school psychologist." In this case, you would not be able call yourself a psychologist outside the school setting. And, not that it really matters, but you would not be addressed as "doctor" in or out of the school since you would not hold a doctoral degree.

Otherwise, in most states the term "psychologist" is reserved for people who hold a doctoral degree from an appropriate training program in clinical, counseling, or educational psychology.

Okay so basically I can't tell my classmates at the high school reunion that I am a doctor? Lol but yes I understand now. I heard the salaries kind of are the same for MA and PhD Level SPs, is that accurate? I'm entering my BA program in January and I am debating on whether to get a masters or head straight to a PhD for School Psychology.

 

[deleted343839]

Okay so basically I can't tell my classmates at the high school reunion that I am a doctor? Lol but yes I understand now. I heard the salaries kind of are the same for MA and PhD Level SPs, is that accurate? I'm entering my BA program in January and I am debating on whether to get a masters or head straight to a PhD for School Psychology.

Well, if you can get into a funded program (more likely for PhD), that's where I'd aim, frankly. I'm not very familiar with school settings so I couldn't say whether there is a salary difference. I'm sure it depends on a lot of factors.

If you have a master's then no, you can't tell people you're a doctor. But if you are doing what you love and have the appropriate training to do it, who cares?

 

[Aestheticism]

Well, if you can get into a funded program (more likely for PhD), that's where I'd aim, frankly. I'm not very familiar with school settings so I couldn't say whether there is a salary difference. I'm sure it depends on a lot of factors.

If you have a master's then no, you can't tell people you're a doctor. But if you are doing what you love and have the appropriate training to do it, who cares?

Yes I was aiming for fully funded phd, I saw some programs have tuition waived and give stipends, which seemed very great.

and yea, understandable

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There is also a specialist degree, which is in between an MS and Ph.D. My bias is to recommend the Ph.D. bc it offers the most comprehensive training of the three. In some/many states there is a push to squeeze our MS-level, so check up wherever you are hoping to practice.

 

[FadedC]

I work in NYC, most school psychologists here are specialist degree. There is a significant salary difference between specialist degree school psychs and MA school psychs. However, there is a very minor salary difference between specialist degree school psychs and PhD level school psychs. However, one of the big financial advantages of school psych is that you have a lot of time off to do fee for service work. A licensed psychologist will have many more options for doing that type of outside work.

I haven't heard of any effort within the schools to squeeze out lower degree practitioners, I personally wouldn't worry about that so much. I suspect that having a PhD may give you a very mild benefit in the job search though, as some employers may think it sounds impressive. Depending on the state where you work though, you may not need much help finding work. Although New York is definitely not one of those states....

 

[ClinicalABA]

Back Again
Quick Question:

Is a school psychologist an actual licensed psychologist or a licensed counselor at the master's level?

Varies by state, but generally a "School Psychologist" is licensed as a school- or educational psychologist, which is a different license and process- with different requirements- than for a "Licensed Psychologist." I am a licensed psychologist who works in schools, but I am not- and don't meet the educational requirement to be- a licensed "Educational Psychologist," as i do not have a masters, CAGS, or Doctorate degree is school psychology from an accredited program.

I know you need a doctorate to be considered a doctor but some of the programs I research are giving false hope about this. They make it seem as though you will be a psychologist after the masters. But I read in some states you can practice as a psychologist with a masters? Very confused.

Again, varies by state. As I mentioned earlier, in my state you can be licensed as a school psychologist with a masters, CAGS, or doctoral degree. School Psychologists can call themselves "school psychologists." They can't call themselves "psychologist" (i.e., without the "school") unless they also are licensed psychologists (which requires a doctoral degree). In the context of offering clinical services to the public, you can generally call yourself a doctor if you have a doctoral degree in the field in which you are licensed and your license requires or allows for a doctoral degree in the as part of the license. If you have a MA level only license (e.g. LMHC), but also refer to yourself as a "doctor of psychology" in the context of offering LMHC services- even if you have a doctorate in psychology, your local board of registration of psychologist might consider this as being deceptive and have a position against it. Generally, if you are licensed at the doctoral level you can call yourself doctor in relation to services provided under that license. However, if you are licensed at the Masters level, you need to check with the boards of registration in you jurisdiction for positions/regulations regarding the use of the term.

You can refer to yourself as "doctor" in areas non-related to clinical services, even if you don't have a doctoral degree, as long as there is no doctoral level licensure in that area. Go ahead, call yourself Dr. Love if you want.

And also, how different are combined School/Clinical programs from a regular School Psychology program?

Thank you.

Combined programs are doctoral level. "Regular" school psych programs may be Master level (or CAGS), and thus be shorter and not include course or clinical work meeting requirement for licensure as a psychologist.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There are also differences between licensed and certified (or whatever the school district uses).

 

[Aestheticism]

There is also a specialist degree, which is in between an MS and Ph.D. My bias is to recommend the Ph.D. bc it offers the most comprehensive training of the three. In some/many states there is a push to squeeze our MS-level, so check up wherever you are hoping to practice.

I was looking at Nova Southeastern University for their PsyD in School Psychology and University of Virginia for their combined PhD Clinical/School Psychology.
Are these good options? or do you know any schools?

 

[Aestheticism]

I work in NYC, most school psychologists here are specialist degree. There is a significant salary difference between specialist degree school psychs and MA school psychs. However, there is a very minor salary difference between specialist degree school psychs and PhD level school psychs. However, one of the big financial advantages of school psych is that you have a lot of time off to do fee for service work. A licensed psychologist will have many more options for doing that type of outside work.

I haven't heard of any effort within the schools to squeeze out lower degree practitioners, I personally wouldn't worry about that so much. I suspect that having a PhD may give you a very mild benefit in the job search though, as some employers may think it sounds impressive. Depending on the state where you work though, you may not need much help finding work. Although New York is definitely not one of those states....

I would be fine getting the specialist degree but I wouldn't want to get turned down because I don't have a PhD. I've heard stories of psychologist switching their clients from children to adults, and I guess I want the flexibility. But I really do not feel that I would switch. I enjoy working with children, teens, and college students in that academic setting and also being able to deal with emotional/psychological issues.

I currently live in Florida (South), but I do plan to move to Central Florida, Texas or Georgia.

 

[Aestheticism]

Varies by state, but generally a "School Psychologist" is licensed as a school- or educational psychologist, which is a different license and process- with different requirements- than for a "Licensed Psychologist." I am a licensed psychologist who works in schools, but I am not- and don't meet the educational requirement to be- a licensed "Educational Psychologist," as i do not have a masters, CAGS, or Doctorate degree is school psychology from an accredited program.



Again, varies by state. As I mentioned earlier, in my state you can be licensed as a school psychologist with a masters, CAGS, or doctoral degree. School Psychologists can call themselves "school psychologists." They can't call themselves "psychologist" (i.e., without the "school") unless they also are licensed psychologists (which requires a doctoral degree). In the context of offering clinical services to the public, you can generally call yourself a doctor if you have a doctoral degree in the field in which you are licensed and your license requires or allows for a doctoral degree in the as part of the license. If you have a MA level only license (e.g. LMHC), but also refer to yourself as a "doctor of psychology" in the context of offering LMHC services- even if you have a doctorate in psychology, your local board of registration of psychologist might consider this as being deceptive and have a position against it. Generally, if you are licensed at the doctoral level you can call yourself doctor in relation to services provided under that license. However, if you are licensed at the Masters level, you need to check with the boards of registration in you jurisdiction for positions/regulations regarding the use of the term.

You can refer to yourself as "doctor" in areas non-related to clinical services, even if you don't have a doctoral degree, as long as there is no doctoral level licensure in that area. Go ahead, call yourself Dr. Love if you want.




Combined programs are doctoral level. "Regular" school psych programs may be Master level (or CAGS), and thus be shorter and not include course or clinical work meeting requirement for licensure as a psychologist.

Hm. So considering your position right now, would you go back and get a EdS in School Psychology, or would you still get the PhD/PsyD in same degree now? (Not sure what you received).

Tbh, I wouldn't mind getting the specialist degree if I am classified as a school psychologist, and if the salaries aren't too far apart with specialist and doctorate (in some states). I wouldn't go around bragging about being a "dcotor" but I would gladly just say School Psychologist and let their mind wander.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Hm. So considering your position right now, would you go back and get a EdS in School Psychology, or would you still get the PhD/PsyD in same degree now? (Not sure what you received).

Tbh, I wouldn't mind getting the specialist degree if I am classified as a school psychologist, and if the salaries aren't too far apart with specialist and doctorate (in some states). I wouldn't go around bragging about being a "dcotor" but I would gladly just say School Psychologist and let their mind wander.

I have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and am a licensed psychologist health service provider, as well as a board certified/licensed behavior analyst. That training and certification gives my WAY more options than I would have had with masters level training and licensure as a school psychologist in my area (plus something like double the salary). Masters level school psychs, in my experience, focus primarily on intelligence and achievement testing, with some involvement in behavioral programming and social skills training. I really don't like the testing aspect, and find that they are often not appropriately trained to do the other parts, so I am pretty happy with my degree and credentials.

I have colleagues who have the same licensure and credentialling as me, but went to programs that also qualified them for school psychologist licensure. We did the same pre- and post-doc stuff, and held the same jobs at the places we worked. None of them have worked as school-psychologists. Where they have had a potential advantage over me, is that some states may require school psychologist licensure for certain positions. For example, I was a lead administrator for a private special education school in my state. A similar position in a neighboring state requires licensure as a school psychologist, so I wouldn't be eligible without additional training (or waivers). Doesn't come up much, but it could. In general, I thing the more GOOD, COMPREHENSIVE training you get that leads to as many "real" credentials that you can get, the more marketable you are. For example, if you can graduate from one program and be eligible for licensure as both a psychologist HSP and a school psychologist (or psychologist HSP and BCBA), the better off you'll be. If you want to work in educational settings. It just gives you more options.

 

[SchoolPsycho]

In school psych, the decision for Ed.S. (or equivalent masters level degree depending on state) vs. Ph.D. really comes down to what you want to do with your degree. An Ed.S. is sufficient if your sole goal is to work in a school providing psychoeducational assessments, behavioral consultation, and managing RTI/PBIS or other systems level stuff. It also probably makes the most sense financially because the program is 2-3 years shorter. In the school setting, the extra education to get a Ph.D. certainly helps, but won't increase your salary much.

If you want to do anything else, like research, work in hospitals, do evaluations in a private clinic, work with other populations, etc., then a Ph.D. is the way to go. Clinical, counseling, or school could all be good fits depending on what you are hoping your specific niche would be.

I also noticed that you said you were just starting your BA. If that is the case, then rest easy knowing you have several years to decide! Don't narrow your search too much at this point. Get some experience with research and clinical work and see what you like.

 

[elpsych]

I would agree with SchoolPsycho. I have an Ed.S.-level degree and worked as a school psychologist in Illinois before deciding I wanted to further broaden my career opportunities (e.g., I wanted to be able to be a LP and potentially be a professor or a hospital-based psychologist). In Illinois, your job title is "school psychologist" without the Ph.D/Psy./D. Other states (e.g., Texas), you would be referred to as something like an "educational diagnostician" because the title of "psychologist" is reserved for individuals with a Ph.D/Psy.D. If you know you want to be a school-based practitioner forever, I would recommend the Ed.S. (also be aware that if you just get your M.A., some states require the Ed.S. to be a school psychologist. The difference is more semester hours - I believe it's 60 hours for MA vs. around 72 hours for Ed.S.). If you want more career options, shoot for the Ph.D.

Some SP programs actually have dual degree programs where you have the option of getting your Ed.S. or continuing on for the Ph.D. These options are usually great because you can decide to terminate at the Ed.S. level if needed and still be able to work in schools. Also, sometimes you can work as a school psychologist after obtaining the Ed.S. while still working on your doctorate (translation: more $$$).

I was able to be funded at both levels, so haven't needed to pay for my graduate career. I always recommend trying to find grants or assistantships at the graduate level - it should be one of the factors that you ask for during your interviews.

Also, one other point that I don't think has come up - licenses/certifications for school psychologists come out of the state Department of Education. Licensed Psychologist comes from the Department of Human Services (typically) and can only be applied for after you attain a doctorate degree and pass the EPPP (in most states).

Like SchoolPsycho mentioned, you luckily have a lot of time to decide, so don't necessarily need to limit yourself now. During your BA, I would strongly recommend getting experience working with children, as well as doing research if you can....it will make you more appealing to graduate programs.

 

[Aestheticism]

So to clarify again, in some states, I can be a licensed school psychologist with a specialist degree?

In school psych, the decision for Ed.S. (or equivalent masters level degree depending on state) vs. Ph.D. really comes down to what you want to do with your degree. An Ed.S. is sufficient if your sole goal is to work in a school providing psychoeducational assessments, behavioral consultation, and managing RTI/PBIS or other systems level stuff. It also probably makes the most sense financially because the program is 2-3 years shorter. In the school setting, the extra education to get a Ph.D. certainly helps, but won't increase your salary much.

If you want to do anything else, like research, work in hospitals, do evaluations in a private clinic, work with other populations, etc., then a Ph.D. is the way to go. Clinical, counseling, or school could all be good fits depending on what you are hoping your specific niche would be.

I also noticed that you said you were just starting your BA. If that is the case, then rest easy knowing you have several years to decide! Don't narrow your search too much at this point. Get some experience with research and clinical work and see what you like.

My goal in the long run would be to open a learning center for disability students/kids of all ages (k-12 & college) while having my own private practice inside (office). I'm not into working in hospitals or doing conducting research, I am more into the academics, behavioral, emotional, physical disabilities, giving test on knowledge and etc. So schools, daycares, learning centers, universities are more of my style.

& yes I am just starting my BA in January so I have enough time. I guess the reason I am trying to really narrow choices down is because I know I can apply to PhD programs straight from my BA and I rather save 2-3 years getting an EdS while I can put those years into a 4-6 years PhD. I currently work in the disability services office on campus so I have experience working with disability students in college, and I plan to work as a research assistant in a lab on campus in January as well. So I'll kind of get a feel for what I really like to do.

 

[Aestheticism]

I would agree with SchoolPsycho. I have an Ed.S.-level degree and worked as a school psychologist in Illinois before deciding I wanted to further broaden my career opportunities (e.g., I wanted to be able to be a LP and potentially be a professor or a hospital-based psychologist). In Illinois, your job title is "school psychologist" without the Ph.D/Psy./D. Other states (e.g., Texas), you would be referred to as something like an "educational diagnostician" because the title of "psychologist" is reserved for individuals with a Ph.D/Psy.D. If you know you want to be a school-based practitioner forever, I would recommend the Ed.S. (also be aware that if you just get your M.A., some states require the Ed.S. to be a school psychologist. The difference is more semester hours - I believe it's 60 hours for MA vs. around 72 hours for Ed.S.). If you want more career options, shoot for the Ph.D.

Some SP programs actually have dual degree programs where you have the option of getting your Ed.S. or continuing on for the Ph.D. These options are usually great because you can decide to terminate at the Ed.S. level if needed and still be able to work in schools. Also, sometimes you can work as a school psychologist after obtaining the Ed.S. while still working on your doctorate (translation: more $$$).

I was able to be funded at both levels, so haven't needed to pay for my graduate career. I always recommend trying to find grants or assistantships at the graduate level - it should be one of the factors that you ask for during your interviews.

Also, one other point that I don't think has come up - licenses/certifications for school psychologists come out of the state Department of Education. Licensed Psychologist comes from the Department of Human Services (typically) and can only be applied for after you attain a doctorate degree and pass the EPPP (in most states).

Like SchoolPsycho mentioned, you luckily have a lot of time to decide, so don't necessarily need to limit yourself now. During your BA, I would strongly recommend getting experience working with children, as well as doing research if you can....it will make you more appealing to graduate programs.

Oh okay. I would love to be a professor as well, or at least have the option to. I don't think I would want to stay in a school setting forever as above I said my goal was to open a learning center for people with disabilities while having my own practice inside. Now that I am thinking and typing it, I do believe a PhD is better because sometimes I am not stable in one thing (Pro and Con) and I like to try new things. I know one day I may enjoy working in elementary schools then 3 years later I want to work in couple therapy. I think a combined Clinical/School or Counseling/School PhD program is right for me.

------ So say I decide to get a PhD, I should jump straight into without the EdS? If my GPA, resume, experience and GKE scores are great.

 

[Aestheticism]

I have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and am a licensed psychologist health service provider, as well as a board certified/licensed behavior analyst. That training and certification gives my WAY more options than I would have had with masters level training and licensure as a school psychologist in my area (plus something like double the salary). Masters level school psychs, in my experience, focus primarily on intelligence and achievement testing, with some involvement in behavioral programming and social skills training. I really don't like the testing aspect, and find that they are often not appropriately trained to do the other parts, so I am pretty happy with my degree and credentials.

I have colleagues who have the same licensure and credentialling as me, but went to programs that also qualified them for school psychologist licensure. We did the same pre- and post-doc stuff, and held the same jobs at the places we worked. None of them have worked as school-psychologists. Where they have had a potential advantage over me, is that some states may require school psychologist licensure for certain positions. For example, I was a lead administrator for a private special education school in my state. A similar position in a neighboring state requires licensure as a school psychologist, so I wouldn't be eligible without additional training (or waivers). Doesn't come up much, but it could. In general, I thing the more GOOD, COMPREHENSIVE training you get that leads to as many "real" credentials that you can get, the more marketable you are. For example, if you can graduate from one program and be eligible for licensure as both a psychologist HSP and a school psychologist (or psychologist HSP and BCBA), the better off you'll be. If you want to work in educational settings. It just gives you more options.

I have been looking at combined PhD programs in Clinical and School Psychology. I think it is the best choice because I do want the flexibility of more options if I wanted to switch to something else, and also the salary. Universities in Florida do not pay their school psychologist a reasonable salary even with a doctorate. So I think I should do a combined program and get those licenses and credentials.

 

[psych844]

The fact that you are so interested in Psychology, so early on in your schooling, is a good sign. I think it's clear you enjoy schooling, and I think it's also clear you aren't 100% sure what you want, and it's clear you want your options open..so certainly do a combined Phd program. The fact is, as long as you keep your marks high, get a strong GRE score, and get the necessary research experience..you can choose a good school and have little or no debt.

You can DEF go straight from undergrad to Phd as long as you get at least a couple years research experience at your University/College psychology labs. But def try to be very involved (ie posters, or preferably publish papers)

 

[Aestheticism]

The fact that you are so interested in Psychology, so early on in your schooling, is a good sign. I think it's clear you enjoy schooling, and I think it's also clear you aren't 100% sure what you want, and it's clear you want your options open..so certainly do a combined Phd program. The fact is, as long as you keep your marks high, get a strong GRE score, and get the necessary research experience..you can choose a good school and have little or no debt.

You can DEF go straight from undergrad to Phd as long as you get at least a couple years research experience at your University/College psychology labs. But def try to be very involved (ie posters, or preferably publish papers)

Thank you very much. I research online a lot and I try to do things right now so I can have a good resume by the time I apply to a graduate program.

and great! I will def try to get experience in all those you listed. Do the programs look at leadership positions in psychology organizations on campus or no?

 

[psych844]

and great! I will def try to get experience in all those you listed. Do the programs look at leadership positions in psychology organizations on campus or no?

It could be an additional plus..but honestly that won't carry that much weight. Research experience is key for Phd programs (particularly posters + publishing).

 

[Aestheticism]

It could be an additional plus..but honestly that won't carry that much weight. Research experience is key for Phd programs (particularly posters + publishing).

Okay thank you very much

 

[DrMikeP]

Back Again
Quick Question:

Is a school psychologist an actual licensed psychologist or a licensed counselor at the master's level?

I know you need a doctorate to be considered a doctor but some of the programs I research are giving false hope about this. They make it seem as though you will be a psychologist after the masters. But I read in some states you can practice as a psychologist with a masters? Very confused.

And also, how different are combined School/Clinical programs from a regular School Psychology program?

Thank you.

Standards vary per state and some are licensed doctoral level practitioners and some have a masters or specialist degree only. That said, what a school psychologist is allowed in regards to scope of practice is less than that of a licensed clinical psychologist.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Back Again
Quick Question:

Is a school psychologist an actual licensed psychologist or a licensed counselor at the master's level?

In most states, the answer to these questions would be no.
Becoming a licensed clinical psychologist is going to provide the most options to work in the most settings both in and out of schools. During doctoral training in clinical psychology, we do a variety of clinical rotations during our practicums and internship that help us decide through experience on what types of settings we prefer. During my training, I did neuropsychology, inpatient adolescent individual and group therapy, day treatment program with SPMI, PTSD individual and group with vets, inpatient adult treatment, early intervention with at-risk teens, forensic evaluations, and a bunch of other stuff. I worked in several different hospitals, law enforcement, schools, private practice, and community mental health. To me, there is no comparison between the background, training, and experience that a licensed clinical psychologist has and the master's level degrees. It just isn't even close.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

To me, there is no comparison between the background, training, and experience that a licensed clinical psychologist has and the master's level degrees. It just isn't even close.

Agreed. I've lectured in MHC (MS), School Psych (Specialist), Clinical Psych (Psy.D & Ph.D), and the training, content, and scopes are vastly different.

The analogy I usually give is the difference between a mechanic technician and the mechanic. The technician learns a set of skills and applies them, while the mechanic has to have a broader view and deeper knowledge about the car in addition to the technical skills to troubleshoot, particularly when the first fix or two don't work. Oil changes and rotor changes are pretty straight forward, but rebuilding an engine or transmission takes a lot more knowledge and experience.

 

[FadedC]

Just for clarification, it is worth noting that you become a licensed psychologist, not a licensed clinical psychologist. Doctoral degrees in clincal psychology, counseling psychology, and school psychology are all license preparation programs and the license you get is the same for all 3. Although I believe Texas does not allow school psych PhDs to become licensed.

On the flip side, in many states it is difficult or impossible for someone with a non school psych degree to become certified as a school psychologist. Because there are generally school based externnship requirements, if you finish your PhD without completing them, there is often no way to complete the requirements short of returning to school for a new degree. Many states are even more restrictive and will never allow someone without a school psych degree to obtain certification.

In most states, the answer to these questions would be no.
Becoming a licensed clinical psychologist is going to provide the most options to work in the most settings both in and out of schools. During doctoral training in clinical psychology, we do a variety of clinical rotations during our practicums and internship that help us decide through experience on what types of settings we prefer. During my training, I did neuropsychology, inpatient adolescent individual and group therapy, day treatment program with SPMI, PTSD individual and group with vets, inpatient adult treatment, early intervention with at-risk teens, forensic evaluations, and a bunch of other stuff. I worked in several different hospitals, law enforcement, schools, private practice, and community mental health. To me, there is no comparison between the background, training, and experience that a licensed clinical psychologist has and the master's level degrees. It just isn't even close.