Sexual harassment by preceptor

[Roden]

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[SouthernSurgeon]

This 100% needs to be reported.

The first person to talk to is the dean of student affairs, and the clerkship director for her current rotation.

The next person to talk to...well...it depends on the first conversation. Probably the hospital HR.

She should absolutely not let this go.

This should not have any negative impact on her career.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

This sort of thing isn't as uncommon as one would think. My female classmates and I dealt with it constantly third year. Here's the thing -- if she felt truly uncomfortable, she should say something after the rotation is over to her school. Start there. Let the school deal with it. They'll get rid of the guy as a potential preceptor, hopefully, and if necessary, they will go to the hospital. Or, there's a possibility they'll ignore it and move on. If they do ignore it, then she can re-assess and decided what to do. But keep in mind that going to the hospital will mean the involvement of lawyers and I doubt your wife wants that at this stage of her career. If it's necessary (i.e. if the school ignores it), then it's necessary, but I wouldn't start there.

But yes, it should definitely be reported.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

This sort of thing isn't as uncommon as one would think. My female classmates and I dealt with it constantly third year. Here's the thing -- if she felt truly uncomfortable, she should say something after the rotation is over to her school. Start there. Let the school deal with it. They'll get rid of the guy as a potential preceptor, hopefully, and if necessary, they will go to the hospital. Or, there's a possibility they'll ignore it and move on. If they do ignore it, then she can re-assess and decided what to do. But keep in mind that going to the hospital will mean the involvement of lawyers and I doubt your wife wants that at this stage of her career. If it's necessary (i.e. if the school ignores it), then it's necessary, but I wouldn't start there.

But yes, it should definitely be reported.

I disagree.

An attending walking a student out of the hospital and explicitly stating (verbatim?) that they want to kiss/fondle/hug them...that's far above and beyond any usual degree of flirtation that is "constantly" dealt with during third year.

She needs to (a) immediately start documenting every encounter with this attending and (b) report it immediately...not waiting until the rotation is over.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I disagree.

An attending walking a student out of the hospital and explicitly stating (verbatim?) that they want to kiss/fondle/hug them...that's far above and beyond any usual degree of flirtation that is "constantly" dealt with during third year

You'd be surprised. A senior resident gave me an x-rated birthday card on my birthday that said something much more suggestive than a hug. An attending who was having problems with his sex life, once asked me to explain why women don't want to have sex every day, saying "as the woman, all you have to do is lie there. What's so hard about that?" Another attending was sleeping with one of the other students and made it clear that he had enough energy for two women, so on and so forth. In only one case did I feel the need to report it immediately. My rotation was changed and it messed up my schedule because of some stupid rule about consecutive days. Most of the time, I let it go and found another resident/attending to spend the majority of the day with as I never felt threatened or anything like that. I was just disgusted by the pigs.

She needs to (a) immediately start documenting every encounter with this attending and (b) report it immediately...not waiting until the rotation is over.

Yeah, maybe you're right. If she was shaking on the way home and she feels so uncomfortable, then maybe she should report it now. I was thinking that there would be other attendings/residents on the service and she wouldn't have to be alone with this guy, so it could wait until the rotation is over (BEFORE evals are in though so it doesn't look like retaliation should she not honor the rotation), but if she's one-on-one with the guy, then the best thing would be to remove herself from the situation. He's definitely been out of line.

 

[boogaloo]

My wife is a 3rd year med student and currently near the end of a surgical rotation. Her preceptor has been full of compliments and jokes since she started. On multiple occasions it even made her wonder if it was flirtation. For example, she showed him a picture of our 8-month-old daughter and he said "she's very beautiful like her mom". Another example, she was carrying a box out for him and he said "you're just so cute". Also he texts her constantly, even late into the evening, witch she would often show me as if to ask if I thought that was a bit odd.

Earlier this evening he also asked if he could take a full body picture of her on his phone.

Well she just told me they were walking to their cars after dark and talking about how the rotation will end soon. He said "every time I see you, it's all I can do not to hug you". Then he said "it's all I can do not to kiss you right now". My wife was in shock to say the least, so she shook her head no and said "no, that's prob not a good idea". Then she walked away to her car.

This sort of thing isn't as uncommon as one would think. My female classmates and I dealt with it constantly third year.

You'd be surprised. A senior resident gave me an x-rated birthday card on my birthday that said something much more suggestive than a hug. An attending who was having problems with his sex life, once asked me to explain why women don't want to have sex every day, saying "as the woman, all you have to do is lie there. What's so hard about that?" Another attending was sleeping with one of the other students and made it clear that he had enough energy for two women, so on and so forth. In only one case did I feel the need to report it immediately. My rotation was changed and it messed up my schedule because of some stupid rule about consecutive days. Most of the time, I let it go and found another resident/attending to spend the majority of the day with as I never felt threatened or anything like that. I was just disgusted by the pigs.

Jesus. This kind of crap makes me so mad, and it's definitely not uncommon. Even as a guy, I've seen certain residents and attendings hit on my female classmates (who are often engaged or married), and there's such a power differential that it's hard for any of us to speak up. I make it a point to stick around and never let my classmates feel like they've been left alone, and I've been thanked more than once for it. There was one instance where an attending called one of my friends into his office alone, and he started to say some weird crap about her being a "once in a lifetime" girl. He was married with a couple of young kids. I really wanted to hurt the f***ing guy, and I told her to report him. He was fired shortly thereafter, but things were kept hush-hush. I've seen the way some of their eyes light up when they interact with my classmates. I guess a part of it is human nature, but some of these "men" need to learn how to keep it in their fcking pants.

 

[DermViser]

My wife is a 3rd year med student and currently near the end of a surgical rotation. Her preceptor has been full of compliments and jokes since she started. On multiple occasions it even made her wonder if it was flirtation. For example, she showed him a picture of our 8-month-old daughter and he said "she's very beautiful like her mom". Another example, she was carrying a box out for him and he said "you're just so cute". Also he texts her constantly, even late into the evening, witch she would often show me as if to ask if I thought that was a bit odd.

Earlier this evening he also asked if he could take a full body picture of her on his phone.

Well she just told me they were walking to their cars after dark and talking about how the rotation will end soon. He said "every time I see you, it's all I can do not to hug you". Then he said "it's all I can do not to kiss you right now". My wife was in shock to say the least, so she shook her head no and said "no, that's prob not a good idea". Then she walked away to her car.

My wife's heart was pounding and she was shaking the whole way home. I'm looking for advice on how she should handle this. Report it to the hospital? Report it to the school? Go straight to the legal department of the hospital? Or talk to a lawyer? Also, would reporting this end her career before it starts?

Thank you, any advice is appreciated.

No, more like report to the Dean of Student Affairs and Clerkship director, bc now that she has shunned his advances, he may take retributive action on her grade.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

There was one instance where an attending called one of my friends into his office alone, and he started to say some weird crap about her being a "once in a lifetime" girl. He was married with a couple of young kids.

Haha. Not even kidding, I think I might know that guy...

I guess a part of it is human nature, but some of these "men" need to learn how to keep it in their fcking pants.

This is unfortunately not exclusively a medicine thing. Women have had to deal with behavior like this forever in the workplace.

You'd be surprised.

There is very little that can surprise me.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

No, more like report to the Dean of Student Affairs and Clerkship director, bc now that she has shunned his advances, he may take retributive action on her grade.

This is absolutely correct.

It's sad that you have to worry about your grades in a situation like this...but you do.

Which is why early reporting and accurate documentation are crucial - you don't want to get into a situation where this gets spun as a student seeking retribution for a bad grade after the fact, or a he-said she-said argument.

 

[DermViser]

This is absolutely correct.

It's sad that you have to worry about your grades in a situation like this...but you do.

Which is why early reporting and accurate documentation are crucial - you don't want to get into a situation where this gets spun as a student seeking retribution for a bad grade after the fact, or a he-said she-said argument.

I 100% agree. If she goes AFTER the rotation is over, she will have absolutely no recourse. Both the Student Affairs dean and clerkship director will say she's now whining after the fact, now that she's received a bad grade and bad evaluation comments. And any grade appeal (which she'll have to do while she's on the next rotation) will fall flat.

It's imperative that she be proactive with this now and be one step ahead. Document, document, document with cc: of emails, as this attending can destroy you in your Dean's letter.

 

[tco]

I know this sounds silly, but look in the student handbook. Let your wife know that she isn't alone, and the handbook can provide proof of this. There is probably a set procedure for dealing with this sort of thing. If it's not in the handbook, start with reporting the incident to your dean of student services (or dean of student affairs, whatever they call them).

 

[DrCharlemagne]

Jesus. This kind of crap makes me so mad, and it's definitely not uncommon. Even as a guy, I've seen certain residents and attendings hit on my female classmates (who are often engaged or married), and there's such a power differential that it's hard for any of us to speak up. I make it a point to stick around and never let my classmates feel like they've been left alone, and I've been thanked more than once for it. There was one instance where an attending called one of my friends into his office alone, and he started to say some weird crap about her being a "once in a lifetime" girl. He was married with a couple of young kids. I really wanted to hurt the f***ing guy, and I told her to report him. He was fired shortly thereafter, but things were kept hush-hush. I've seen the way some of their eyes light up when they interact with my classmates. I guess a part of it is human nature, but some of these "men" need to learn how to keep it in their fcking pants.

You know, one thing you could do, only if you're comfortable, is to note this behavior on the anonymous feedback forms you get at the end of rotations. Or, and again only if you feel comfortable, you could report is to Student Affairs or whichever office you feel appropriate. Since these jerks frequently make their overt moves when no one is watching, the offense can fall into the domain of he-said she-said. It makes her case easier if there is some prior documented evidence of other people noting skeezy behavior, even if your specific evaluation or account doesn't go anywhere.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Jesus. This kind of crap makes me so mad, and it's definitely not uncommon. Even as a guy, I've seen certain residents and attendings hit on my female classmates (who are often engaged or married), and there's such a power differential that it's hard for any of us to speak up. I make it a point to stick around and never let my classmates feel like they've been left alone, and I've been thanked more than once for it. There was one instance where an attending called one of my friends into his office alone, and he started to say some weird crap about her being a "once in a lifetime" girl. He was married with a couple of young kids. I really wanted to hurt the f***ing guy, and I told her to report him. He was fired shortly thereafter, but things were kept hush-hush. I've seen the way some of their eyes light up when they interact with my classmates. I guess a part of it is human nature, but some of these "men" need to learn how to keep it in their fcking pants.

You're a stand-up guy. Thank you for this post and for being a good man.

No, more like report to the Dean of Student Affairs and Clerkship director, bc now that she has shunned his advances, he may take retributive action on her grade.

In my case, I simply played the ignorant card and worked with others until the rotation was over. I then reported (last day of rotation, BEFORE grades/evals were in so that it wouldn't be seen as retaliation). You do have to play the timing game. If you report it after he completes your evaluation and he gives you a bad one, you might as well pack it up because everyone will think you're doing it because of the eval. What happened with me was that I reported it and by the time the school notified the attending of my complaints, he had already written my eval and given me glowing comments that were in my Dean's letter, despite the fact that I never once flirted back or crossed the line. In my opinion, a lot of these guys do it to see who responds, which girls have loose enough morals to sleep with them, but they don't hold it against the ones who ignore the comments and do their job. Notice I said "a lot," not all. I have no doubt that some of them are sleazy enough to take that as a personal insult/rejection and respond accordingly.

I 100% agree. If she goes AFTER the rotation is over, she will have absolutely no recourse

No, she will have recourse if she does it before eval is in, but I do think you guys are right. She's obviously feeling very uncomfortable and maybe even scared, so she should report it now.

 

[DermViser]

You're a stand-up guy. Thank you for this post and for being a good man.

In my case, I simply played the ignorant card and worked with others until the rotation was over. I then reported (last day of rotation, BEFORE grades/evals were in so that it wouldn't be seen as retaliation). You do have to play the timing game. If you report it after he completes your evaluation and he gives you a bad one, you might as well pack it up because everyone will think you're doing it because of the eval. What happened with me was that I reported it and by the time the school notified the attending of my complaints, he had already written my eval and given me glowing comments that were in my Dean's letter, despite the fact that I never once flirted back or crossed the line. In my opinion, a lot of these guys do it to see who responds, which girls have loose enough morals to sleep with them, but they don't hold it against the ones who ignore the comments and do their job. Notice I said "a lot," not all. I have no doubt that some of them are sleazy enough to take that as a personal insult/rejection and respond accordingly.

No, she will have recourse if she does it before eval is in, but I do think you guys are right. She's obviously feeling very uncomfortable and maybe even scared, so she should report it now.

The problem is you, as a student, have no idea when an evaluation will be turned in by the faculty member. Our faculty evaluations were electronically filled online.
As a student you have no way of knowing how a faculty member or resident will respond. The power differential is too great, hence the saying, "They can hurt you a lot more than you can hurt them."

Edit: The quote is actually, "They can always hurt you more" from House of God.

 

[boogaloo]

Haha. Not even kidding, I think I might know that guy..

This is unfortunately not exclusively a medicine thing. Women have had to deal with behavior like this forever in the workplace.

Agreed about the workplace thing. I didn't think my anecdote would be identifiable, but I think I gave away too much info haha.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

The problem is you, as a student, have no idea when an evaluation will be turned in by the faculty member. Our faculty evaluations were electronically filled online.
As a student you have no way of knowing how a faculty member or resident will respond. The power differential is too great, hence the saying, "They can hurt you a lot more than you can hurt them."

Edit: The quote is actually, "They can always hurt you more" from House of God.

You're right, but it depends on the school. For instance, at my school, the clerkship coordinator receives my eval on the last day of the rotation. He/she then gives it to the attending or resident. So when I report the attending on the last day, I know for a fact it's before he's filled it out.

 

[boogaloo]

You know, one thing you could do, only if you're comfortable, is to note this behavior on the anonymous feedback forms you get at the end of rotations. Or, and again only if you feel comfortable, you could report is to Student Affairs or whichever office you feel appropriate. Since these jerks frequently make their overt moves when no one is watching, the offense can fall into the domain of he-said she-said. It makes her case easier if there is some prior documented evidence of other people noting skeezy behavior, even if your specific evaluation or account doesn't go anywhere.

It's a difficult position for me, especially since thinking that somebody is flirting with a student is different than having objective evidence of it. That plus their position and role in the hospital heavily favors them. Hell, we have an attending who thinks all women belong in the kitchen; he's been reported by nearly every female student who has rotated with him over the years, and he is able to do or say whatever he wants to this day with no repercussions whatsoever. Hell of a system.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

It's a difficult position for me, especially since thinking that somebody is flirting with a student is different than having objective evidence of it. That plus their position and role in the hospital heavily favors them. Hell, we have an attending who thinks all women belong in the kitchen; he's been reported by nearly every female student who has rotated with him over the years, and he is able to do or say whatever he wants to this day with no repercussions whatsoever. Hell of a system.

Believe me, I understand how the institution and power dynamics play into the hand of the aggressor here, but you do have a gut feeling for what seems like "harmless" flirting and what seems to be crossing a line. You can also check with the recipient of a superior's attention and see if your perception is correct, which I believe you already said you were doing. Just be aware how helpful your voice might be to a situation since you are a (male) outsider, especially if you recognize something that's toeing the boundary of acceptable. Imagine how much easier it would be for OPs wife if another student were able to corroborate her account of previous minor transgressions, or if there were already a paper trail that others had noticed inappropriate attention directed her way. Obviously no one can ask you to imperil yourself, but if you wanted to do something more helpful than beat the superior senseless, documenting what you've seen might be another way to help combat this.

 

[boogaloo]

Believe me, I understand how the institution and power dynamics play into the hand of the aggressor here, but you do have a gut feeling for what seems like "harmless" flirting and what seems to be crossing a line. You can also check with the recipient of a superior's attention and see if your perception is correct, which I believe you already said you were doing. Just be aware how helpful your voice might be to a situation since you are a (male) outsider, especially if you recognize something that's toeing the boundary of acceptable. Imagine how much easier it would be for OPs wife if another student were able to corroborate her account of previous minor transgressions, or if there were already a paper trail that others had noticed inappropriate attention directed her way. Obviously no one can ask you to imperil yourself, but if you wanted to do something more helpful than beat the superior senseless, documenting what you've seen might be another way to help combat this.

I agree with you. Besides the incident where the attending got fired, the other instances haven't been big issues for my classmates, at least on the surface or nothing that they would admit to me about. I think a lot of them have grown so accustomed to this type of behavior that they'd rather just ignore it than jump through the hurdles. It doesn't make it okay, but it's a tough situation to be in. In any case, I always try to do the right thing. It's gotten me far in life.

 

[cabinbuilder]

1. I agree this happens ALL THE TIME TO WOMEN in the workplace especially in medicine
2. Why does the guy have her cell number to text?
3. Need to get her rotation changed NOW, talk to the rotations office and get it changed.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

2. Why does the guy have her cell number to text?.

At places that don't use pagers, students communicate with residents and attendings via text. Even places that do use pagers sometimes ask for cell numbers.

 

[evilbooyaa]

At places that don't use pagers, students communicate with residents and attendings via text. Even places that do use pagers sometimes ask for cell numbers.

I generally didn't text with my attending, but I always had my resident's cell phone numbers as well as their pager numbers. I'd always try a text/call before I blew up their pager. I imagine if there are no residents, it would be generally appropriate for the student and the attending to have each other's cell numbers.