Sexual harassment from interviewer

[breezy16]

My second WTF? of this thread.

I've been WTFing way too often when reading this. Parts of me wish I never opened the thread; the numerous face palms can't be good for me.

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[Glazedonutlove]

I've been WTFing way too often when reading this. Parts of me wish I never opened the thread; the numerous face palms can't be good for me.

that and the "logic" of some people on this thread is actually pretty disturbing

 

[breezy16]

that and the "logic" of some people on this thread is actually pretty disturbing

I wouldn't be surprised if I heard this from my co-workers (heavily saturated area of masochistic attitudes and females are only useful for babies-beliefs), but the fact these opinions and beliefs are coming from potential healthcare providers...
People wonder why there is social injustice and disparity in medicine.

 

[Halcyon32]

who's they? When did op talk about ruining anyone's life? I think you are the one facing moral ambiguity here. Clearly you can't see why his actions were wrong which is pathetic

Hi SDN,

So I have an issue, and I am mainly looking for the input of Adcom members, though I suppose advice from anyone is welcome. About a year ago I was at a party and was the victim of sexual harassment. A friend of my brother kept grabbing my boobs and groin and followed me around the whole night while making lewd comments about what he wanted to do to me. Later that night, when almost everyone had left, he cornered me in the garage and tried to force me to kiss him. I struck him hard in the face and that seemed to snap him out of it. He kind of laughed and slapped me on the butt, but he left the house after that. The whole incident left me upset and angry, but I didn't report it to anyone.
Fast forward to the present where I saw him again, this time as one of my student interviewers...I am really torn about what I should do. Should I report him to the school? I had no idea this individual was a medical student, and I am very concerned that he may abuse patients one day. On the other hand, I don't want to create such a ruckus that I am denied from the school. On the other other hand, who am I to ruin a young man's life for one night of stupid behavior? I would especially appreciate the input of @gyngyn @Goro @LizzyM @mimelim

Thank you

 

[Glazedonutlove]

doesn't make the rest of my statement false

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I wouldn't be surprised if I heard this from my co-workers (heavily saturated area of masochistic attitudes and females are only useful for babies-beliefs), but the fact these opinions and beliefs are coming from potential healthcare providers...
People wonder why there is social injustice and disparity in medicine.

lol and these kids wouldn't have the balls to say this stuff if it wasn't anonymous. Wish adcoms could recognize who they are

 

[WingedOx]

What strikes me is that this doesn't seem like a pattern. A mistake sure. I guess this is my fraternity background talking, but if someone makes a drunk mistake one time and no one is hurt, it really isn't that big of a deal. Im sure this was an unpleasant experience for her, but a "pattern of unethical and disturbing behavior" is not the same as "drunkenly attempted to make out at a house party once."

Sorry, but my own fraternity background plus a decade after college has let me know that this isn't going to be the only time this person has been or will be a creep.

Your post is even creepier than most. What kind of "drunk mistakes" are you and your friends making?

 

[Halcyon32]

doesn't make the rest of my statement false

Hey man, you asked. Just helping out

 

[wasteofspace323]

Hey, I'm just curious what some of you guys think. Consider the situation the dean of this school finds himself in, or a member of the subcommittee assigned to investigate. Imagine that is you.

You perform the investigation. You get "optimal" results: a few vague eyewitnesses who are friends of the accuser who observed this over a year ago while intoxicated. Do you think this is a sufficient amount of evidence from your ethical perspective, and what do you think should happen?

Some would say an "indictment" under this level of, uh, proof is unethical in and of itself. It's demonstrative of kangaroo court.

 

[WingedOx]

The fact is schools are still struggling with how to best handle these cases. Look at University of Michigan, which has gotten itself in trouble on BOTH sides of the pendulum of this in the last couple years.

But schools do have a right to expel students on a much lower burden of proof than law enforcement would need for a prosecution. They are private independent institutions.
......

and every few months we see a thread pop up on SDN about sexual assault and it's filled with "bro-anxiety" about false accusations. I always find myself wondering what kinds of situations people are putting themselves to worry about someone "crying rape*" at them. Seeing posts from the likes of @md-2020 and @Not A Troll, I think I have my answer.

*their words, not mine.

 

[C02232934]

Hey, I'm just curious what some of you guys think. Consider the situation the dean of this school finds himself in, or a member of the subcommittee assigned to investigate. Imagine that is you.

You perform the investigation. You get "optimal" results: a few vague eyewitnesses who are friends of the accuser who observed this over a year ago while intoxicated. Do you think this is a sufficient amount of evidence from your ethical perspective, and what do you think should happen?

Some would say an "indictment" under this level of, uh, proof is unethical in and of itself. It's demonstrative of kangaroo court.

Exactly, there are too many questions here. Did op drink herself? Did op say anything beforehand to the perp? If the experience was so awful, why didn't she report it right away? When it comes to rape, people become so emotional that the burden of proof is severely lowered.

 

[deleted480308]

The fact is schools are still struggling with how to best handle these cases. Look at University of Michigan, which has gotten itself in trouble on BOTH sides of the pendulum of this in the last couple years.

But schools do have a right to expel students on a much lower burden of proof than law enforcement would need for a prosecution. They are private independent institutions.
......

and every few months we see a thread pop up on SDN about sexual assault and it's filled with "bro-anxiety" about false accusations. I always find myself wondering what kinds of situations people are putting themselves to worry about someone "crying rape*" at them. Seeing posts from the likes of @md-2020 and @Not A Troll, I think I have my answer.

*their words, not mine.

When a great deal of the high profile assault cases turning out to be false....(tawana brawley, duke lacross, the mattress girl, lena dunham) concerns about false accusations have some validity and a great argument for leaving these issues to the courts where both sides have legal protections and innocent until proven guilty is the standard. If you can prove someone is a rapist, I'm fine with the death penalty and am cool with flipping the switch myself. I'm not cool with an unqualified private entity labeling someone a rapist without affording that person the legal protections and due process we would expect for them in a criminal proceeding.

 

[SteveRope123]

You're welcome! It was clearly not a post meant to be taken seriously. Not sure why you got so worked about it.

And yet here I am teaching you what a paradox is. Nice try with the ad hominem, though.

Sigh....

I wonder what you all would say to your sister/female friend if this happened to her.

Because if you'd pit the blame on someone you love in a state of complete vulnerability, you're an asswipe.

My sisters already know how I feel about it. Wouldn't change the fact that they made an idiot choice by attending a party. With that said, my eyes are everywhere and I wouldn't even let them attend a party even if they wanted to.

He'll do excellent in MMI

I suggest you take an ethics class. You'll be surprised how basic your responses are to MMI. You're the type of person to prioritize the victim of a robbery when it comes to health care over the robber instead of looking at both as humans that deserve equal quality health care.

Nice opinions, friend. Unfortunately, whatever image of me that you have concocted in your brain is likely wrong. I am by no means a party girl. I joined a sorority in my junior year whose philanthropy is Domestic Violence Awareness and advocates against hazing, as it is a form of abuse. My University generally does not hold fraternities and sororities in high regard, but we are a fairly liberal school whose focus is on positivity and change. Many of my fraternity friends are kind, intellectual, accepting individuals with healthy views of women, although some fraternities are definitely not this way. My belief is that all women (and men) should be safe and free to do what they want, in a healthy, consensual manner. I believe that unhealthy behaviors and negative mentalities can be changed, and the way things are now does not have to be how they are indefinitely. If you think I am naive or an idealist, you are wrong. The world will never become an ideal place, but that does not mean that causes are completely lost and not worth fighting for. That is why I am here. What are you here for?

Edit: Also the fact that you think going to a party means a girl is inviting herself to be sexually assaulted or raped is WRONG. She should be able to go wherever she wants dressed however she likes without any fear of unwanted advances or sexual harassment. Yes. That is the "ideal world." But, a man not able to control himself or keep his hands to himself is NOT HER FAULT, and the sooner you realize that men should be responsible for his own actions and behaviors, the better.

Ah yes, the 21st century liberal. Fun. I couldn't care less about your story or your belief in freedom. History has proven you wrong countless times and I don't feel the need to do it again. I'll just watch it happen.

 

[C02232934]

who's they? When did op talk about ruining anyone's life? I think you are the one facing moral ambiguity here. Clearly you can't see why his actions were wrong which is pathetic

His actions were definitely wrong, I said as much. What is in question is whether or not the punishment fits the crime.

 

[wasteofspace323]

Exactly, there are too many questions here. Did op drink herself? Did op say anything beforehand to the perp? If the experience was so awful, why didn't she report it right away? When it comes to rape, people become so emotional that the burden of proof is severely lowered.

First off, no one's been raped. Secondly I'm asking what you feel is ethical, primarily regarding the quality of proof presented. I don't really care about the ethics of the act. This is a matter of justice.

@WingedOx, if that last reply was directed at my post, which it might not have been, I'm only interested in your take on the situation. I don't want some cop out about how it's difficult and universities struggle making the decision. You didn't quote me but contextually it seemed like a reply.

 

[Affiche]

I suggest you take an ethics class. You'll be surprised how basic your responses are to MMI. You're the type of person to prioritize the victim of a robbery when it comes to health care over the robber instead of looking at both as humans that deserve equal quality health care.

I'm the type of person? You don't know a single thing about me or my background in ethics. Dude, have you even done an MMI yet?

 

[SteveRope123]

I'm the type of person? You don't know a single thing about me or my background in ethics. Dude, have you even done an MMI yet?

It's clear the type of person you are based on your posts. These short interactions do paint pictures of the inner depths of your personality. Same applies to my comments.

I can make an assumption on your viewpoint with regards to ethics based off of that. Sorry not Sorry.

 

[DokterMom]

Hey, I'm just curious what some of you guys think. Consider the situation the dean of this school finds himself in, or a member of the subcommittee assigned to investigate. Imagine that is you.

You perform the investigation. You get "optimal" results: a few vague eyewitnesses who are friends of the accuser who observed this over a year ago while intoxicated. Do you think this is a sufficient amount of evidence from your ethical perspective, and what do you think should happen?

Some would say an "indictment" under this level of, uh, proof is unethical in and of itself. It's demonstrative of kangaroo court.

"Optimal results?" Oh - I see. You mean "Optimal" for HIM.

Considering that the witnesses are more likely to be frat brothers than her friends, and that they may well have seen that scenario played out several times at several parties (if this behavior is part of a larger pattern) -- then yeah, I'd take it seriously. A vague "yeah some creepy drunk guy was bothering her" but I was pretty drunk myself and didn't see anything specific -- well, that's not much to base such a serious decision on. But a statement from someone who actually intervened -- much more credible.

If I were investigating myself, I'd also want to ask the female members of the accused's circle of friends if they believe that the alleged behavior reflects how the accused acts when drunk.

 

[WingedOx]

When a great deal of the high profile assault cases turning out to be false....(tawana brawley, duke lacross, the mattress girl, lena dunham) concerns about false accusations have some validity and a great argument for leaving these issues to the courts where both sides have legal protections and innocent until proven guilty is the standard. If you can prove someone is a rapist, I'm fine with the death penalty and am cool with flipping the switch myself. I'm not cool with an unqualified private entity labeling someone a rapist without affording that person the legal protections and due process we would expect for them in a criminal proceeding.

Unfortunately for every one of those, you have even more Brandon Gibbons type situations. FWIW the pendulum is swinging in a direction of schools making judgments in cases where there may or may not be a preponderance of evidence because of other high-profile mishandlings of allegations in the recent past. Large institutions are sadly going to have to dedicate more resources to investigation of said allegations given that failure to act will run them afoul of Title IX. Large schools that already possesses large-scale police forces (public or private) have the capability to do that. It's smaller schools like my alma mater that I worry about.

But as said, if we make the assumption that the schools have put together a sufficient investigation, I don't have a problem with expulsion/discipline based on preponderance of evidence. Even that's a very difficult standard to meet in a sexual assault allegation.

 

[KatniP]

Sigh....


My sisters already know how I feel about it. Wouldn't change the fact that they made an idiot choice by attending a party. With that said, my eyes are everywhere and I wouldn't even let them attend a party even if they wanted to.


I suggest you take an ethics class. You'll be surprised how basic your responses are to MMI. You're the type of person to prioritize the victim of a robbery when it comes to health care over the robber instead of looking at both as humans that deserve equal quality health care.



Ah yes, the 21st century liberal. Fun. I couldn't care less about your story or your belief in freedom. History has proven you wrong countless times and I don't feel the need to do it again. I'll just watch it happen.

I'm sorry, what century are you from? Lmao.

I can tell you couldn't care less, seems like a great trait that you refuse to learn about other people and instead hold onto your deep-set, harmful beliefs.

History has proven me wrong countless times? Yeah, maybe for the current situation, but the fact that I'm not typing this from a kitchen proves you wrong.

 

[deleted480308]

Unfortunately for every one of those, you have even more Brandon Gibbons type situations. FWIW the pendulum is swinging in a direction of schools making judgments in cases where there may or may not be a preponderance of evidence because of other high-profile mishandlings of allegations in the recent past. Large institutions are sadly going to have to dedicate more resources to investigation of said allegations given that failure to act will run them afoul of Title IX. Large schools that already possesses large-scale police forces (public or private) have the capability to do that. It's smaller schools like my alma mater that I worry about.

But as said, if we make the assumption that the schools have put together a sufficient investigation, I don't have a problem with expulsion/discipline based on preponderance of evidence. Even that's a very difficult standard to meet in a sexual assault allegation.

I understand your point. I'm of the opinion that colleges should not have their own police depts and that they shouldn't be conducting criminal investigations. Leave that to municipal/state/federal law enforcement.

 

[wasteofspace323]

"Optimal results?" Oh - I see. You mean "Optimal" for HIM.

Considering that the witnesses are more likely to be frat brothers than her friends, and that they may well have seen that scenario played out several times at several parties (if this behavior is part of a larger pattern) -- then yeah, I'd take it seriously. A vague "yeah some creepy drunk guy was bothering her" but I was pretty drunk myself and didn't see anything specific -- well, that's not much to base such a serious decision on. But a statement from someone who actually intervened -- much more credible.

If I were investigating myself, I'd also want to ask the female members of the accused's circle of friends if they believe that the alleged behavior reflects how the accused acts when drunk.

To be honest, I meant for her. I err very heavily in favor of decisive evidence. Witness testimony of an event a year ago while inebriated, of an event they unlikely felt was extremely significant and memorable is, in my opinion insubstantial garbage. I'm legitimately curious about what level of evidence people on this forum feel is significant. I understand that universities have a much lower bar than the justice system, but some would consider that bar might be unethical if too low.

Edit: I also err very heavily in favor of guilty/innocent. Using the alleged friends as a character testimony about the likelihood of the alleged act is one think. If you're thinking about evaluating his character in a subcommittee which should be designated solely for claim investigation... I find that a bit self important.

 

[WingedOx]

I understand your point. I'm of the opinion that colleges should not have their own police depts and that they shouldn't be conducting criminal investigations. Leave that to municipal/state/federal law enforcement.

The horse it out of the barn on that one. I agree with you when it comes to private schools, particularly when they give themselves jurisdiction to make arrests x miles form campus and aren't subject to open records laws regarding police data.

Some of the larger public schools may as well be small state municipalities as is. I have a hard time faulting my old institution for having its own police force when our city cops are so woefully understaffed and poorly managed.

 

[Winged Scapula]

The numerous WTFs, face palms and user complaints have led us to decide to close the thread. Apologies to the OP if you did not find the help you sought.