Sexual past matters for women, but not men

[deleted480308]

Do you reject effeminate men for feminine women?

100% of the time ...excuse the intrusion to your conversation with mercapto but I couldn't resist this one

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[WildZoo]

We discussed the peacock tail in our behavioral ecology class. The signalling theory explanation for the evolution of peafowl tails makes sense intuitively, but isn't backed by good data. This guy explains the issues with the science and problems with exploring questions through the lens of evolutionary biology.

He seems to be more focused on predation, whereas I was referring to energy costs of maintaining plumage in good condition. I don't know how you can possibly argue that it doesn't take more energy to maintain more plumage.

 

[WildZoo]

There is more recent evidence that bigger tail doesn't always mean more reproduction, which is to be expected as sexual systems are rarely that simple
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110418/full/news.2011.245.html#B3

ETA: It's from a book so I can't quote it, but the display behaviors also play a part - display rate, total time spent displaying, vocalizations, and even other physical characteristics like the size of crest feathers all come together...just as in humans, mate selection is very complex.

I don't really know where I'm going with this anymore, I feel like I'm back in my animal behavior and communication classes, down the rabbit hole of reading too many scientific articles

 

[touchpause13]

100% of the time ...excuse the intrusion to your conversation with mercapto but I couldn't resist this one

Well nobody asked you!

 

[deleted480308]

Well nobody asked you!

 

[touchpause13]

 

[Promethean]

You assume that masculine = male, feminine = female. That isn't how everyone else sees it. Again, it isn't that your way is wrong, just that you are blind to even the possibility that others have a different perspective. So, it seems "odd" to you to encounter something outside your view. Could it possibly be that not everyone divides up the world into the same categories, based upon the same criteria, that you do?

Masculinity is hot. So is femininity. So is androgyny. The gender/biological sex of the person expressing themselves in one of those modalities is irrelevant to me, or certainly less relevant than other aspects of their person and personality. Those traits are like flavors to me. It would be like saying that only cake can be chocolate, only ice cream can be vanilla, and that vanilla cake with chocolate ice cream is weird and unacceptable, a joke substitute for the flavor/substrate combination that I prefer. I don't mind that you are a vanilla ice cream purist. That is fine, so long as you aren't trying to force your preferences on everyone else, insisting that what you like is the only way dessert should be served.

I like exotic flavors. They aren't joke substitutes for vanilla.

 

[studentdoct69]

Woah where did this thread go....

The whole point of this forum was to point out that having more previous partners negatively afffects 'pair bonding' (moreso with females than males). I'm not even sure why the OP posted this.

 

[touchpause13]

Woah where did this thread go....

The whole point of this forum was to point out that having more previous partners negatively afffects 'pair bonding' (moreso with females than males). I'm not even sure why the OP posted this.

You keep saying these things like they are facts. They aren't facts.

 

[studentdoct69]

Well there are studies and real-life observations that support them. I could care less about the answer to this topic of discussion--I'm just telling you that people have questioned and done studies on it in the past and this is what they found

 

[Hustler101]

I don't think that dude is a quasimodo, either. He could stand to lose the creeperstache, but he isn't remotely unattractive.

As for looksmatched... I think you are attributing imprecisely, and confusing cause and effect.

People do tend to seek mates who are like them, but I don't think that it is purely a matter of where they fall on your scale of attractiveness. I think that people who are into the same things, live the same lifestyle, are more likely to meet each other and be attracted to one another. People who are into physical fitness are going to pair up. People who hang out in attics playing D&D are going to pair up. Physiques of people who go running for fun are going to be different from those of people who roll dice for fun.

If you are basing attractiveness on a scale that has athletic builds at one end and couch potatoes at the other, then yes, you are going to find that people tend to date within their activity levels.

Being looksmatched is basically someone going for a person that he knows in the back of his mind he has a chance with. The girl ultimately settles for the guy because she knows this is the ideal level of attractiveness for her. If she aims for a hotter guy then the guy will leave after having sex with her OR if he isn't that type he will leave her/cheat on her etc. This works both ways as well.

Having an athletic build doesn't make you more attractive. It only prevents you from looking unattractive. It's entirely based on your face and I'll agree that having a top tier physique (which is very difficult to obtain) will give you 1 point on the 1-10 scale. The vast majority of guys in the gym gain 0 points. Girls however have it easier since makeup, tight pants etc. make it fairly easy to become a 6-7/10.

 

[Hustler101]

gonna throw it out there.....the bikini shots of girls that look like teenagers feels creepy

uh why??

 

[jl lin]

That is the thing. It isn't about the physical at all, unless you are just really into the superficial, in which case you might as well get turned on by Real Dolls and save the trouble of dealing with a live human being, with all their faults.

Sexiness is about so much more to me. It is about thoughts and feelings, about the entity operating the controls behind the eyes. So, a pretty face is meaningless if the person behind it is not appealing. A face/body is just a communication device. It can convey information about a person's health and well-being, just on appearances alone. But to find out about other dimensions of the person, what matters is how they use it, not just how it looks in a photo.

Sexy means a kind, open expression. It means smiling often and laughing easily. It means listening and being responsive. It means taking actions that demonstrate confidence, generosity, curiosity, patience. One dimensional adherence to physical ideals can be nice if all you want to do is look and maybe touch, but it is just one facet, and not remotely the most important.

Yes, and in the case of touching something that seems appealing to look at, well, I think that a pretty and symmetrical mannequin will definitely not be the same.

 

[WildZoo]

Yes, and in the case of touching something that seems appealing to look at, well, I think that a pretty and symmetrical mannequin will definitely not be the same.

 

[touchpause13]

uh why??

Idk about you but I'm 24 and those girls look about 17. Inapprops.

 

[jl lin]

Those are outlier cases. As long as you can hold a basic convo then you're good to go... which the vast majority of guys can. The average guy making her laugh will get friendzoned if he's out of her league.
Also it depends on the level as well...

This guy:

Won't need anything beyond very basic social skills. Even a 7/10 with supreme social skills can't compete with him. Much less an average guy.

Well, besides the variations in what this would mean from person to person, at best physical attractiveness initially may just be hooking the bait; but you may well lose the fish if you don't know how to fish.

Human relationships are way more complex than you are even considering. If you are just worried about hooking up, well, there are enough women that want to feel that they have a temporary fix for their gross insecurity (mostly bolstered by cultural/societal influences over time) by easily hooking up with guys.

If you care about something more substantial than hook ups, then you are really missing the boat, as far as I am concerned; b/c once more, human beings and relationships are way more complex than what goes into a casual hook up.

And I can give plenty examples of guys that have hooked up with dozens or more of girls---that are, in our culture at least, considered on the "high end" in the looks department. These guys, however, end up losing out in relationship after relationship. The girls ultimately lose interest in them, b/c beyond the pretty face and the well kept build, there is not much else to them--or they are not in touch with the "necessary else" within them. They don't understand the necessity of moving beyond themselves in order to develop a long-term bond and growing relationship. Looks are powerless when it comes to developing lasting bonds and growing a relationship.

 

[Hustler101]

Idk about you but I'm 24 and those girls look about 17. Inapprops.

How did you determine that they're 17 and not 18? Not that it matters because they are undoubtedly 16 or higher which is the age of consent in most states.
Nothing wrong with being attracted to a physically developed female who is within a legal age range... I hate how people make it seem like it's politically incorrect for a male who's over something like 21-22 to be attracted to a female who isn't older and losing her looks.

 

[Hustler101]

Well, besides the variations in what this would mean from person to person, at best physical attractiveness initially may just be hooking the bait; but you may well lose the fish if you don't know how to fish.

Human relationships are way more complex than you are even considering. If you are just worried about hooking up, well, there are enough women that what to feel that they have a temporary fix for their gross insecurity by easily hooking up with guys.
If you care about something more substantial than hook ups, then you are really missing the boat, as far as I am concerned; b/c once more, human beings and relationships are way more complex than what goes into a casual hook up.

And I can give plenty examples of guys that have hooked up with dozens or more of girls---that are, in our culture at least, considered on the "high end" in the looks department. These guys, however, end up losing out in relationship after relationship. The girls ultimately lose interest in them, b/c beyond the pretty face and the well kept build, there is not much else to them--or they are not in touch with the "else" within them. They don't understand the necessity of moving beyond themselves in order to develop a long-term bond and growing relationship. Looks are powerless when it comes to developing lasting bonds and growing a relationship.

I agree with this except your last statement wasn't worded correctly. Looks inspire the initial feelings, then everything else allows it to develop further.

I think what you're missing out on though is the fact that not having good looks makes the dating scene extremely difficult for men. Hookups will be with overweight women and any relationship you develop will be with someone you settle for and face a large risk of divorcing/cheating/being unhappy with. Why do we have a lot of sexless marriages? Cause of a lack of attraction. Who doesn't want sex with someone they think is hot?

Now I'm not really proposing a solution. I'm just saying that we have to be honest about the reality of things and stop trying to be politically correct about everything. Same goes for topics like talent and hard work.

 

[deleted480308]

How did you determine that they're 17 and not 18? Not that it matters because they are undoubtedly 16 or higher which is the age of consent in most states.
Nothing wrong with being attracted to a physically developed female who is within a legal age range... I hate how people make it seem like it's politically incorrect for a male who's over something like 21-22 to be attracted to a female who isn't older and losing her looks.

legality has nothing to do with creepy

what you posted is both legal and creepy

 

[touchpause13]

How did you determine that they're 17 and not 18? Not that it matters because they are undoubtedly 16 or higher which is the age of consent in most states.
Nothing wrong with being attracted to a physically developed female who is within a legal age range... I hate how people make it seem like it's politically incorrect for a male who's over something like 21-22 to be attracted to a female who isn't older and losing her looks.

Haha ok if you think 20 year olds are "losing their looks"

I think it's creepy. If I can't tell if someone is 18 or 17 or 16 that's a huge red flag IMO.

 

[Hustler101]

legality has nothing to do with creepy

what you posted is both legal and creepy

There is absolutely nothing creepy about that.

 

[Hustler101]

Haha ok if you think 20 year olds are "losing their looks"

I think it's creepy. If I can't tell if someone is 18 or 17 or 16 that's a huge red flag IMO.

I see nothing wrong with a 28 year old for example having sex with a 16 year old. The legal system for the most part doesn't either.

And yes a lot of girls in their mid 20s are losing their looks compared to when they were younger. For men it comes on late 20s.

 

[jl lin]

I agree with this except your last statement wasn't worded correctly. Looks inspire the initial feelings, then everything else allows it to develop further.

I think what you're missing out on though is the fact that not having good looks makes the dating scene extremely difficult for men. Hookups will be with overweight women and any relationship you develop will be with someone you settle for and face a large risk of divorcing/cheating/being unhappy with. Why do we have a lot of sexless marriages? Cause of a lack of attraction. Who doesn't want sex with someone they think is hot?

Now I'm not really proposing a solution. I'm just saying that we have to be honest about the reality of things and stop trying to be politically correct about everything. Same goes for topics like talent and hard work.

No, looks + chemistry + communication (verbal and nonverbal) inspire certain feelings that may or may not allow things to move further. People have certain, IDK what you want to call them--I'll say core energies--for lack of any other word that I will find that fits. That energy--that spirit of confidence, caring, which is demonstrated in the verbal and nonverbal behavior--that core sense of who you are comes out after the initial eye-lock or eye-catches that go back and forth. Even in those exchanges, it is the energy from the other person that will actually engage the other person. It's more than facial appreciation. It's about communication, and we communicate with more than words. The eyes and facial muscle responses--and whether the flow of that energy is genuine or not--these things will often set the tone for what happens after the "eye flash." Smart girls will definitely be on the cagey side. You can bet your last dollar, the confident and intelligent ones are looking for sincerity--a truth as it were in the "tells" and nonverbal and well as verbal communication of the other person.

Hustler101, I want to say this as kindly as possible, but I feel that you may not really understand women and how they work. Beyond that, every person has aspects of their personality that is both, feminine and masculine, b/c we are complex like that, and more than likely, we have been socially influenced by both men (fathers or father substitutes) and women (mothers or mother substitutes).

Anyway, this is a fun thread.

 

[touchpause13]

I see nothing wrong with a 28 year old for example having sex with a 16 year old. The legal system for the most part doesn't either.

And yes a lot of girls in their mid 20s are losing their looks compared to when they were younger. For men it comes on late 20s.

Hope you like prison, bro.

Have you talked to a 16 year old recently? They are kids. What you are describing is a situation ripe for exploitation. What does someone who's almost 30 even have in common with a high schooler? Ugh.

 

[studentdoct69]

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[The_Sunny_Doc]

I see nothing wrong with a 28 year old for example having sex with a 16 year old. The legal system for the most part doesn't either.

And yes a lot of girls in their mid 20s are losing their looks compared to when they were younger. For men it comes on late 20s.

This is the kind of nonsense found on manosphere blogs. My cousin, a head turner (more importantly, a compassionate human being) who is 35 and married to a 30 year old man, would laugh at this.

We're all going to get old and ugly. It's inevitable. Best find someone who you can still tolerate when you're no longer young and supple.

 

[Mad Jack]

Oh, I just find it odd that you desire masculinity in men but then on the other hand you also like to have sex with women. I would think that someone bisexual would have the most fluid sensibilities about sexuality and would embrace the panoply of sexualities distributed among the two sexes (yes, I am modeling liberalspeak here). Do you similarly expect your women to be very feminine, or do you want them, too, to be masculine?

Everybody has preferences. I'm not getting how this is so hard to understand.

 

[Hustler101]

Hope you like prison, bro.

Have you talked to a 16 year old recently? They are kids. What you are describing is a situation ripe for exploitation. What does someone who's almost 30 even have in common with a high schooler? Ugh.

Why would I go to prison? I don't come across 16 year olds I'm just saying there isn't anything wrong with it. Good luck convicting someone who had sex with someone of legal age in court... They'd never even be charged to begin with even if they were 35.

 

[studentdoct69]

.

 

[Hustler101]

No, looks + chemistry + communication (verbal and nonverbal) inspire certain feelings that may or may not allow things to move further. People have certain, IDK what you want to call them--I'll say core energies--for lack of any other word that I will find that fits. That energy--that spirit of confidence, caring, which is demonstrated in the verbal and nonverbal behavior--that core sense of who you are comes out after the initial eye-lock or eye-catches that go back and forth. Even in those exchanges, it is the energy from the other person that will actually engage the other person. It's more than facial appreciation. It's about communication, and we communicate with more than words. The eyes and facial muscle responses--and whether the flow of that energy is genuine or not--these things will often set the tone for what happens after the "eye flash." Smart girls will definitely be on the cagey side. You can bet your last dollar, the confident and intelligent ones are looking for sincerity--a truth as it were in the "tells" and nonverbal and well as verbal communication of the other person.

Hustler101, I want to say this as kindly as possible, but I feel that you may not really understand women and how they work. Beyond that, every person has aspects of their personality that is both, feminine and masculine, b/c we are complex like that, and more than likely, we have been socially influenced by both men (fathers or father substitutes) and women (mothers or mother substitutes).

Anyway, this is a fun thread.

You're over thinking this. Every good looking girl I see has a good looking boyfriend. Every average girl has an average boyfriend. What happens is that an 8/10 girl will be approached by a variety of 7-8/10 guys which she then makes her pick based on the other factors you described. An 8/10 will never go with a 5/10 when she could have a 7-8/10 guy that had just as good of a personality.

 

[Hustler101]

A lot of the manosphere is very jaded towards females unfortunately. But, you can't deny certain points if science, stats and research back them up. I'm sure your cousin's husband finds 25 yr old girls more attractive, but does that mean he's going to act on it? No! Probably b/c he loves your cousin....

Mad Jack says: "Everybody has preferences. I'm not getting how this is so hard to understand."

Sure everyone has preferences. But there's a reason why all guys think Victoria Secret models are hot and want them. Just like there's a reason why most girls talk about and swoon for say an NFL quarterback (he doesn't have to look like a male model lol).

Like I said, for the most part, beauty is objective (golden ratio, hip:waist ratio for girls etc) No one is perfect, and if you are then there's negatives to being perfect (like tons of divorces b/c you can't make up your mind with all the options).

At least we can have that beauty is objective. I could post pics of guys or girls I consider 9/10s and no one in this thread will rate them below an 8. I can post pics of a 5 and no one will rate them above a 6. Hence proving that attractiveness is very objective. Beyond what you're saying though the eye area is extremely important. It's what separates a 6 and a 7-8 for guys especially.

 

[studentdoct69]

.

 

[deleted480308]

Why would I go to prison? I don't come across 16 year olds I'm just saying there isn't anything wrong with it. Good luck convicting someone who had sex with someone of legal age in court... They'd never even be charged to begin with even if they were 35.

you keep focusing on the criminality and not the "being a crappy person" aspect of this discussion

 

[Hustler101]

Hustler101, you are looking at this through a *male* attraction lens--where you value looks and base 90% of value in the sexual market on looks. It doesn't make sense to us b/c our brains are wired differently, but *looks* are just one factor in the equation. There has been studies that show parts of the brain light up for males moreso than females when visual stimuli is presented.

Yes they are just one factor but they are the most important factor. I regularly see hot girls reject all guys who aren't good looking - not sure what relevance studies have in this.

 

[Hustler101]

you keep focusing on the criminality and not the "being a crappy person" aspect of this discussion

2 of my female friends have sex with a few guys in their late 20s when they were 16. They lied to the guys about their age to make it happen.
You should reevaluate just how "dumb" you think a 16 year old girl is... Most lose their virginity at that age. If they want to sleep around they will and some of those guys will be much older than ones in their own age range. It makes little difference if the guy is 17 or 25.

 

[Mad Jack]

Why would I go to prison? I don't come across 16 year olds I'm just saying there isn't anything wrong with it. Good luck convicting someone who had sex with someone of legal age in court... They'd never even be charged to begin with even if they were 35.

In most states, 16 is not the legal age of consent. They are legally considered children, as they lack judgement in regard to life decisions, of which sex with an older adult is one. Can't believe you think having sex with children is totally fine, I guys it just goes a long way toward demonstrating how warped your world views are.

 

[Mad Jack]

2 of my female friends have sex with a few guys in their late 20s when they were 16. They lied to the guys about their age to make it happen.
You should reevaluate just how "dumb" you think a 16 year old girl is... Most lose their virginity at that age. If they want to sleep around they will and some of those guys will be much older than ones in their own age range. It makes little difference if the guy is 17 or 25.

The difference between a 17 year old and a 25 year old is huge, both in how easily an adult can manipulate a teenager and how the age difference affects the power dynamics of the relationship.

 

[jl lin]

I see nothing wrong with a 28 year old for example having sex with a 16 year old. The legal system for the most part doesn't either.

And yes a lot of girls in their mid 20s are losing their looks compared to when they were younger. For men it comes on late 20s.

OK, this is very dependent on various factors. This will vary based on genetics, lifestyle, exposure to and acquiring of illness and/or treatments for illness--even a large amount and degree of stress can negatively affect people. I know people in their 20's and 30's that really started looking very different and older b/c of these things. I mean, there are people that go way overboard with the tanning and partying and they really start to lose it big time. OTOH, some of us have been carded (genuine carding--not bogus, "I want a nice tip carding") at 40. Sure genetics is a part of it, but I also think clean living and not being exposed so much to ionizing radiation and being more wellness and health conscious plays a part. Kids that have always had exercise or sports or dance in their lives all the way up to teen years usually have a better sense of keeping in shape--have better muscle development and less obesity, which starts to take its tool in 20's. There are so many kids and teens w/ obesity and lack of muscle definition just from lack of the right kinds of disciplined physical activity. Throw in cigarettes, drugs, ETOH use, premature or hyper-sexual activity, less than optimal nutrition, and all the other crap, no wonder why there is premature aging.

 

[studentdoct69]

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[Mad Jack]

You're over thinking this. Every good looking girl I see has a good looking boyfriend. Every average girl has an average boyfriend. What happens is that an 8/10 girl will be approached by a variety of 7-8/10 guys which she then makes her pick based on the other factors you described. An 8/10 will never go with a 5/10 when she could have a 7-8/10 guy that had just as good of a personality.

You've got a view that is quite skewed by youth and likely your social circles. Come back to me when you're 30 and we'll see if your observations still hold up. They won't.

 

[jl lin]

In most states, 16 is not the legal age of consent. They are legally considered children, as they lack judgement in regard to life decisions, of which sex with an older adult is one. Can't believe you think having sex with children is totally fine, I guys it just goes a long way toward demonstrating how warped your world views are.

Some intriguing studies on incomplete frontal lobe development until being in one's 20's makes a case for this too; although there will be variations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/


My point is that in general, less than 20 for most may well mean premature/incomplete frontal lobe development, and thus affect balanced decision-making in the teen; hence, an argument can be made for the ability of giving true validity to sexual consent in a person < than say, 20 y.o.a.

So yea, that's what makes the bikini post on the creepy side. If Hustler was a 16 y.o. male, OK, understandable and not so creepy. As an adult male closer t0 25 or 30, undoubtedly he will find them attractive; but it's kind of creepy to post here, given most are probably adults and see the bikini girls closer to children than adult women, which, really, they kind of are. Those girls in fact may be 13 or so. Yea, that's a child.

 

[jl lin]

Hope you like prison, bro.

Have you talked to a 16 year old recently? They are kids. What you are describing is a situation ripe for exploitation. What does someone who's almost 30 even have in common with a high schooler? Ugh.

LOL

 

[Hustler101]

In most states, 16 is not the legal age of consent. They are legally considered children, as they lack judgement in regard to life decisions, of which sex with an older adult is one. Can't believe you think having sex with children is totally fine, I guys it just goes a long way toward demonstrating how warped your world views are.

False

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summary.shtml

Keep in mind there's a world outside USA and 16 is what most of the world follows as well (ex. Canada, Europe, etc.)

 

[Hustler101]

The difference between a 17 year old and a 25 year old is huge, both in how easily an adult can manipulate a teenager and how the age difference affects the power dynamics of the relationship.

You can't manipulate a 16 year old into having sex with you lol. That's such a myth... Most 16 year olds are repulsed by guys who are older with the exception of highly attractive ones.

False. You need to do some more observing.
For starters:
Fame/power >>>>>>>>> looks

Yes but who has considerable fame and power? Celebrities.... who else? No one. Therefore it is an irrelevant factor.

Some intriguing studies on incomplete frontal lobe development until being in one's 20's makes a case for this too; although there will be variations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/


My point is that in general, less than 20 for most may well mean premature/incomplete frontal lobe development, and thus affect balanced decision-making in the teen; hence, an argument can be made for the ability of giving true validity to sexual consent in a person < than say, 20 y.o.a.

So yea, that's what makes the bikini post on the creepy side. If Hustler was a 16 y.o. male, OK, understandable and not so creepy. As an adult male closer t0 25 or 30, undoubtedly he will find them attractive; but it's kind of creepy to post here, given most are probably adults and see the bikini girls closer to children than adult women, which, really, they kind of are. Those girls in fact may be 13 or so. Yea, that's a child.

No heterosexual single male with a normal sex drive would reject sex from any of those girls I posted.

 

[jl lin]

This is the kind of nonsense found on manosphere blogs. My cousin, a head turner (more importantly, a compassionate human being) who is 35 and married to a 30 year old man, would laugh at this.

We're all going to get old and ugly. It's inevitable. Best find someone who you can still tolerate when you're no longer young and supple.

Yea, but I am trying my best to avoid the old and ugly part. LOL This thread just gets better and better.

 

[Rogert]

False

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summary.shtml

Keep in mind there's a world outside USA and 16 is what most of the world follows as well (ex. Canada, Europe, etc.)

You keep missing that part where the legality is irrelevant.

 

[Rogert]

No heterosexual single male with a normal sex drive would reject sex from any of those girls I posted.

I would. They look like kids.

 

[studentdoct69]

.

 

[Hustler101]

You keep missing that part where the legality is irrelevant.

It's not though. Anyone who is physically developed is sexually desirable. The law draws the line.

I would. They look like kids.

On the internet everyone acts like a perfect idealist with excellent morals. Statistics always prove otherwise.

Yeah celebrities, professional athletes etc. But it goes farther than that (i.e. positions of power such as the fraternity president compared to the regular guys). I'm done with this topic, I've laid out plenty of examples to get my point across.

And those guys make up such a tiny percentage of the male population that it becomes irrelevant. Status matters a lot but the kind you're thinking of is insanely hard to acquire.

 

[studentdoct69]

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