MD & DO sGPA 3.3, cGPA 3.4, MCAT 28

[Rogert]

I'm a non-trad and I've really been struggling with this whole med school application process. I'm aware I'm not super competitive but it would be helpful to know what I can improve for next year if I don't get in anywhere this year.

I'm a first generation Colombian, resident of NY. I did my first two years at the Unites States Military Academy. My grades weren't straight A's but were respectable for West Point and I transferred with a 3.26 GPA. I finished up my Psychology degree at a state school where I was almost straight As except for a slump my last semester.

Stats:
-3.4 GPA (I've been told by at least one adcom that West Point GPAs are calculated differently so I'm not sure how to interpret this)
-28 MCAT (8/11/9)
-30 hours shadowing a pathologist and hopefully some more shadowing an internist later this year.
-4 months doing student research in a neuropsychology lab where I designed and got approval for an experiment of my own design. Never got off the ground due to ethical differences between me and the professor.
-8 months working in medical billing
-Obviously lots of leadership experience from West Point plus more from being in charge of some local gaming groups

MD Schools:
George Washington U
Howard
New York University
SUNY Upstate
The Commonwealth
U of Vermont
USUHS

DO Schools:
LECOM
PNWU-COM
UNECOM
WU-COM
Touro-NY

Edit: Removed North Dakota

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[gyngyn]

Use the AMCAS gpa calculator to estimate the gpa we will see.
Colombianos are not generally considered under-represented in medicine, though you might want to check with individual schools.
No clinical experience? Are you applying this cycle or next?
Delete ND from your list (geocentric).
Delete NYU (stats).
Howard will be a stretch.

 

[Rogert]

West Point uses a traditional 4.0 system. The GPA calc gives me what I posted which is why I'm not sure what they mean.
I'm aware ND is geocentric, but they still matriculate a higher percentage of people from out of state than a lot of schools. Given the number schools I feel that are in my reach, I believe to be in my best interests to at least attempt it. It's a 0% shot if you never take it, etc.
By NYU, I meant to say New York Medical College. I'm definitely aware NYU is out of reach.

From my understanding, the purpose of clinical experience was to give students an idea of what it is that doctors do and make sure that they want to be doctors. I observe the work of over 180 physicians every single day. If that doesn't give you an idea of what a doctor does than I am very confused as to what the purpose of clinical experience is. Additionally, the money is a very ugly side of medicine. I've been here 8 months and I still want to be doctor, so I don't think my determination is in question. My experience may be nontraditional but, unless I'm missing something, I feel that I'm still meeting its goals.

Any comments in regards to DO schools?

 

[user3]

West Point uses a traditional 4.0 system. The GPA calc gives me what I posted which is why I'm not sure what they mean.
I'm aware ND is geocentric, but they still matriculate a higher percentage of people from out of state than a lot of schools. Given the number schools I feel that are in my reach, I believe to be in my best interests to at least attempt it. It's a 0% shot if you never take it, etc.
By NYU, I meant to say New York Medical College. I'm definitely aware NYU is out of reach.

From my understanding, the purpose of clinical experience was to give students an idea of what it is that doctors do and make sure that they want to be doctors. I observe the work of over 180 physicians every single day. If that doesn't give you an idea of what a doctor does than I am very confused as to what the purpose of clinical experience is. Additionally, the money is a very ugly side of medicine. I've been here 8 months and I still want to be doctor, so I don't think my determination is in question. My experience may be nontraditional but, unless I'm missing something, I feel that I'm still meeting its goals.

Any comments in regards to DO schools?

Competitive for most DO schools, but add a little more. Suggest PCOM and NYIT.

 

[WillburCobb]

I'm aware ND is geocentric, but they still matriculate a higher percentage of people from out of state than a lot of schools.

The OOS students at UND are comprised of 11 MN/WICHE students, a few OOS Native American students who are admitted through the INMED program, and OCCASSIONALLY 1 maybe 2 OOS state students who have both VERY STRONG stats AND ties to ND. The "higher" appearing OOS % also has to do with the relatively small class size compared to many other schools.

 

[gyngyn]

From my understanding, the purpose of clinical experience was to give students an idea of what it is that doctors do and make sure that they want to be doctors. I observe the work of over 180 physicians every single day. If that doesn't give you an idea of what a doctor does than I am very confused as to what the purpose of clinical experience is.

Their billing?!

 

[Rogert]

Yes? Doctors write notes for a reason and, given the behavior of the doctors in my system, it certainly isn't because they want to. The people in billing read those notes and try and figure out what exactly they did so they can get a paycheck. If you don't understand what the doctors are doing, they don't get paid, and that makes them very angry.

If I'm misunderstanding something about this application process, please inform me. I have no family ties to medicine, I wasn't premed in college, and I have no access to any sort of group that can help me learn about medical school beyond this site, which I wish I had found earlier. I'm positive I'm in the dark about a number of things but unless I screw up or preemptively learn, there's no way for me to find out.

Also, Wilbur, thank you for that explanation and saving me a little bit of money.

 

[gyngyn]

Yes? Doctors write notes for a reason and, given the behavior of the doctors in my system, it certainly isn't because they want to. The people in billing read those notes and try and figure out what exactly they did so they can get a paycheck. If you don't understand what the doctors are doing, they don't get paid, and that makes them very angry.

If I'm misunderstanding something about this application process, please inform me. I have no family ties to medicine, I wasn't premed in college, and I have no access to any sort of group that can help me learn about medical school beyond this site, which I wish I had found earlier. I'm positive I'm in the dark about a number of things but unless I screw up or preemptively learn, there's no way for me to find out.

Also, Wilbur, thank you for that explanation and saving me a little bit of money.

If you submit your billing work as "clinical experience" you run a strong risk of being considered disingenuous.

 

[ciestar]

Clinical experience involves actually working with patients, not doctors.

Shadowing in general gives you an idea of what a doctor's day is like. This is passive clinical experience, you follow around the doctor all day and watch them examine patients. I don't think billing counts as this.

 

[Rogert]

Gyngyn, I submitted it as Paid Employment - Medical. Given your reaction, I can see that adcoms would be skeptical as well, but given how I've described the experience I still don't know why.

Ciestar, the page on the AAMC website describing clinical experience specifically says "you are not expected to provide a clinical service" and "you may only be required to observe physicians." (https://www.aamc.org/students/aspiring/experience/284864/summer6.html)

 

[Faha]

You should also apply to the other 3 SUNY schools. Newer MD schools such as Quinnipiac, Oakland Beaumont and Western Michigan would also be worth considering.

 

[gyngyn]

Gyngyn, I submitted it as Paid Employment - Medical. Given your reaction, I can see that adcoms would be skeptical as well, but given how I've described the experience I still don't know why.

Ciestar, the page on the AAMC website describing clinical experience specifically says "you are not expected to provide a clinical service" and "you may only be required to observe physicians." (https://www.aamc.org/students/aspiring/experience/284864/summer6.html)

This EC designation is fine for this activity. That still leaves the lack of clinical experience.
You asked about what you could do to improve your application. This would be my suggestion.

 

[MackandBlues]

Gyngyn, I submitted it as Paid Employment - Medical. Given your reaction, I can see that adcoms would be skeptical as well, but given how I've described the experience I still don't know why.

Ciestar, the page on the AAMC website describing clinical experience specifically says "you are not expected to provide a clinical service" and "you may only be required to observe physicians." (https://www.aamc.org/students/aspiring/experience/284864/summer6.html)

Take gyngyn's advice!! you need to be observing physicians in person! doing their billing does not count at all. period. plus you need to see the patients because they are who you will be interacting with during a career as a physician. LizzyM always says something like 'if you can smell the patients then it is clinical experience'.

 

[MackandBlues]

I also agree about adding in more DO schools because I don't think your numbers are high enough for MD

 

[mspeedwagon]

Do you have strong ties to North Dakota? The operate on a point system. You will be auto-screened out if you do not have enough points. Do the calculation and figure out if it is worth applying (basically, if you are not a resident of ND/MN or part of Native American tribe the answer will almost certainly be no). My sister attended (undergrad) there and still recalls the brutal winters of ND (and she now lives in New England (which she considers relatively warm in Feb!)).

Also, I don't see much in your background that makes you a good fit for Howard.

I also agree with adding some more D.O. schools to the mix.

 

[WillburCobb]

My sister attended (undergrad) there and still recalls the brutal winters of ND (and she now lives in New England (which she considers relatively warm in Feb!).

Noobs! -30° with a windchill of -75° isn't THAT brutal...

 

[ciestar]

Gyngyn, I submitted it as Paid Employment - Medical. Given your reaction, I can see that adcoms would be skeptical as well, but given how I've described the experience I still don't know why.

Ciestar, the page on the AAMC website describing clinical experience specifically says "you are not expected to provide a clinical service" and "you may only be required to observe physicians." (https://www.aamc.org/students/aspiring/experience/284864/summer6.html)

The clinical experience thing I go by what every ADCOM on here has to say. And every one of them says you must be interacting with patients. And who said in order for it to count you have to actually do clinical work? Being a hospice volunteer and spending the day talking to the patient counts as clinical volunteering. The observing the physician thing generally falls under shadowing, but @gyngyn is ultimately the authority on this one.

 

[gyngyn]

The clinical experience thing I go by what every ADCOM on here has to say. And every one of them says you must be interacting with patients. And who said in order for it to count you have to actually do clinical work? Being a hospice volunteer and spending the day talking to the patient counts as clinical volunteering. The observing the physician thing generally falls under shadowing, but @gyngyn is ultimately the authority on this one.

You are correct . When scanning OP's EC's, the screener will notice the lack of clinical experience. If there is some compelling reason to interview him that over-rides this deficit, he may still get an II. The problem then comes when the committee reviews the whole package. He will be compared to similar candidates judged to have validated their commitment. This makes for layers of potential for an undesired outcome.

 

[Rogert]

This EC designation is fine for this activity. That still leaves the lack of clinical experience.
You asked about what you could do to improve your application. This would be my suggestion.

If I do not get in anywhere this year, this is certainly an area I will be focusing on. I still feel like I need clarification on a number of things regarding clinical experience:

Given what everyone here is saying, the website seems to be full of misinformation. For example, "you may be required only to observe the physicians," "clinical experience typically refers to exposure to a setting where medical services are provided. For example, some students shadow a physician," "clinical experience isn't a requirement," and "having clinical experience before applying to medical school is not essential." And I misunderstanding what they're saying or what the purpose of this particular webpage is?

I still don't believe I fully understand what qualifies as clinical experience. Ciestar mentioned talking with hospice patients counted as clinical experience. To me, that just sounds like general community service as there is nothing medical really going on. However, I read on a different thread general hospital work did not count because it wasn't work done with a doctor.

Is the major issue that I just don't have anything in my ECs designated as clinical experience? I was an informal counselor throughout high school and college, and talk about it a lot in my personal statement, but didn't feel that it was proper to put in my activities because it wasn't associated with any organization.

I'm not trying seem foolish, it's simply that I am very confused. I will do my best to gain some clinical experience, but I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could help clarify these issues.

 

[gyngyn]

If I do not get in anywhere this year, this is certainly an area I will be focusing on. I still feel like I need clarification on a number of things regarding clinical experience:

Given what everyone here is saying, the website seems to be full of misinformation. For example, "you may be required only to observe the physicians," "clinical experience typically refers to exposure to a setting where medical services are provided. For example, some students shadow a physician," "clinical experience isn't a requirement," and "having clinical experience before applying to medical school is not essential." And I misunderstanding what they're saying or what the purpose of this particular webpage is?

I still don't believe I fully understand what qualifies as clinical experience. Ciestar mentioned talking with hospice patients counted as clinical experience. To me, that just sounds like general community service as there is nothing medical really going on. However, I read on a different thread general hospital work did not count because it wasn't work done with a doctor.

Is the major issue that I just don't have anything in my ECs designated as clinical experience? I was an informal counselor throughout high school and college, and talk about it a lot in my personal statement, but didn't feel that it was proper to put in my activities because it wasn't associated with any organization.

I'm not trying seem foolish, it's simply that I am very confused. I will do my best to gain some clinical experience, but I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could help clarify these issues.

Patient interaction for an applicant comes in two categories, shadowing is a passive activity in which you quietly observe what a physician does. Activities in which you participate in any way with people receiving medical care constitute "clinical experience." Volunteering in hospitals, hospice, SNF's, nursing homes, Planned Parenthood or "free clinics" (among others) is a normal, nay, expected part of the medical school application. The quote from AAMC is to let applicants know that skilled clinical care is not expected (in contrast to PA school, for example).

Non-clinical volunteering is also expected but can occur in many more settings as no medical care is being provided.

 

[Goro]

To follow up on what my learned colleague is saying, you have to demonstrate that you know what you are getting into, and that you really want to spend the next 30-40 years being around sick people and their families. You have yet to do so. At my school, you would likely get an interview, but then get rejected.

We, and others, have rejected 4.0 GPA/45 MCAT for precisely the same deficits in ECs that you have. A career in medicine isn't a reward for being a good student, it's a privilege.

So if you really wish to be a doctor, you're going to have to earn it.

Patient interaction for an applicant comes in two categories, shadowing is a passive activity in which you quietly observe what a physician does. Activities in which you participate in any way with people receiving medical care constitute "clinical experience." Volunteering in hospitals, hospice, SNF's, nursing homes, Planned Parenthood or "free clinics" (among others) is a normal, nay, expected part of the medical school application.

Non-clinical volunteering is also expected but can occur in many more settings as no medical care is being provided.

 

[Rogert]

To follow up on what my learned colleague is saying, you have to demonstrate that you know what you are getting into, and that you really want to spend the next 30-40 years being around sick people and their families. You have yet to do so. At my school, you would likely get an interview, but then get rejected.

We, and others, have rejected 4.0 GPA/45 MCAT for precisely the same deficits in ECs that you have. A career in medicine isn't a reward for being a good student, it's a privilege.

So if you really wish to be a doctor, you're going to have to earn it.

So if I'm understanding you properly, the actual purpose of this is to demonstrate a dedication to the desire to be a doctor?

 

[gyngyn]

So if I'm understanding you properly, the actual purpose of this is to demonstrate a dedication to the desire to be a doctor?

This is one way to see that you know what you are getting into and to validate that your personal qualities lend themselves to a lifetime of service in what can be a difficult field.

 

[user3]

For DO schools, I'm not sure active clinical experience is required. At my school, a number of my classmates got in with only shadowing.

 

[Goro]

They are at mine!

For DO schools, I'm not sure active clinical experience is required. At my school, a number of my classmates got in with only shadowing.