Shandong district in China to ban dogs?

[dyachei]

see the story below. seems like it may be a good story for those looking at current events for interview questions and raises certain ethical questions.

http://shanghaiist.com/2015/09/11/shandong-village-issues-ban-dogs.php

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[pinkpuppy9]

see the story below. seems like it may be a good story for those looking at current events for interview questions and raises certain ethical questions.

http://shanghaiist.com/2015/09/11/shandong-village-issues-ban-dogs.php

I did a quick Google search, and couldn't find anything describing this village and its dog problems. You'd think they must have a pretty severe stray problem to establish this kind of ruling. It's entirely possible that it's just not making headlines, I guess. Maybe establish a law that pets must be spayed/neutered, all pets must be leashed/within a fence, etc.? They don't need to just go and kill family dogs at least, especially if those dogs aren't causing the problem. I'm not sure what the animal shelters would be like over there for the strays, if there are any.

 

[dyachei]

a large part has to do with the culture and how they view dogs over there.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

a large part has to do with the culture and how they view dogs over there.

I imagine they wouldn't have shelters then...

However, if someone is willing to fight for his dog, I imagine there's some group of people that would resist this as best as they can. I feel like China is known for extremist reactions like this, though. Hopefully people aren't watching their dogs getting slaughtered right now, that would be terrible.

 

[dyachei]

I imagine they wouldn't have shelters then...

However, if someone is willing to fight for his dog, I imagine there's some group of people that would resist this as best as they can. I feel like China is known for extremist reactions like this, though. Hopefully people aren't watching their dogs getting slaughtered right now, that would be terrible.

that's a leap to make. While dogs are part of families in this part of the world, they often aren't in others. However, there are still shelters. People still adopt dogs for a variety of reasons. Some families in those cultures still feel as if they are family.

 

[WildZoo]

Wish I knew more about China and how much pushback is possible with local government decrees like this. I would imagine that even people who don't quite see their dogs as family would be upset, since they have the proper licenses.

 

[dyachei]

Wish I knew more about China and how much pushback is possible with local government decrees like this. I would imagine that even people who don't quite see their dogs as family would be upset, since they have the proper licenses.

it's difficult to have pushback there. People will be upset, but if the government truly believes public health is at risk, there won't be much to do about it. I mean, we're talking about a place where human rights are still often violated.

 

[WildZoo]

it's difficult to have pushback there. People will be upset, but if the government truly believes public health is at risk, there won't be much to do about it. I mean, we're talking about a place where human rights are still often violated.

That's what I figured.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

that's a leap to make. While dogs are part of families in this part of the world, they often aren't in others. However, there are still shelters. People still adopt dogs for a variety of reasons. Some families in those cultures still feel as if they are family.

What's a leap, saying they've acting in extreme fashions before? Idk, I disagree. This is the same country that bans Google and Christmas and dictates how many children you can legally have. I know it's always going to seem shocking in comparison to what we're used to over here, but still.

I just think there might be some form of resistance (even if that form is hiding your dog) just based off of the quote they have in the article. I'd like to think I'd resist that, but I've also never been in such a tough country. I just never am one to underestimate the human animal bond, that's all.

Wish I knew more about China and how much pushback is possible with local government decrees like this. I would imagine that even people who don't quite see their dogs as family would be upset, since they have the proper licenses.

It's my understanding that there isn't a lot of room to push....see how Google was banned so the citizens couldn't look up the Tiananmen Square massacre or literally anything about their own government. Their legal system is quite sad...people are imprisoned without trial, and anyone who is identified as part of any sort of resistance movement is arrested.

 

[WildZoo]

What's a leap, saying they've acting in extreme fashions before? Idk, I disagree. This is the same country that bans Google and Christmas and dictates how many children you can legally have. I know it's always going to seem shocking in comparison to what we're used to over here, but still.

I just think there might be some form of resistance (even if that form is hiding your dog) just based off of the quote they have in the article. I'd like to think I'd resist that, but I've also never been in such a tough country. I just never am one to underestimate the human animal bond, that's all.

It's my understanding that there isn't a lot of room to push....see how Google was banned so the citizens couldn't look up the Tiananmen Square massacre or literally anything about their own government. Their legal system is quite sad...people are imprisoned without trial, and anyone who is identified as part of any sort of resistance movement is arrested.

I think the leap was assuming they don't have shelters because they don't view dogs quite the same way as we do over here.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Rabies risk is also another thing to consider as well. Unlike the US which only has a few human rabies cases (Almost never from dogs), China has on average 2000 cases per year, more of those from dogs than wildlife (guessing based on the fact that across the world, people rabies cases come 90% from unvaccinated dogs which is crazy and hard for me to wrap my head around but is apparently true). It takes 70%+ dogs being vaccinated to curb rabies transmission. Extermination I guess would be another solution... Not one I would personally choose, but then that's easy for me to say as a person of western culture.

 

[WildZoo]

Maybe people would hide their dogs but I don't know how well they could really do that - the government knows who holds an animal license. They can easily check up on those people. What are they going to do? Keep the dog in a basement for the rest of its life, and hope their house isn't searched?

If left with no other options I would actually hope that people would take their dogs to be humanely euthanized if possible, rather than trying to hide the dog and risking that the dog ends up bludgeoned to death.

 

[dyachei]

What's a leap, saying they've acting in extreme fashions before? Idk, I disagree. This is the same country that bans Google and Christmas and dictates how many children you can legally have. I know it's always going to seem shocking in comparison to what we're used to over here, but still.

I just think there might be some form of resistance (even if that form is hiding your dog) just based off of the quote they have in the article. I'd like to think I'd resist that, but I've also never been in such a tough country. I just never am one to underestimate the human animal bond, that's all.

It's my understanding that there isn't a lot of room to push....see how Google was banned so the citizens couldn't look up the Tiananmen Square massacre or literally anything about their own government. Their legal system is quite sad...people are imprisoned without trial, and anyone who is identified as part of any sort of resistance movement is arrested.

the leap was making assumptions about shelters.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I think the leap was assuming they don't have shelters because they don't view dogs quite the same way as we do over here.

I know they have a lot of 'associations' and animal activists that place strays into foster homes and whatnot, but according to Dr. Google, there really aren't any legitimate shelters except in Beijing. Please share if you find different info, though. I'm not sure how animal activism is more acceptable than human rights activism....

Maybe people would hide their dogs but I don't know how well they could really do that - the government knows who holds an animal license. They can easily check up on those people. What are they going to do? Keep the dog in a basement for the rest of its life, and hope their house isn't searched?

If left with no other options I would actually hope that people would take their dogs to be humanely euthanized if possible, rather than trying to hide the dog and risking that the dog ends up bludgeoned to death.

That's a good point, but if these people are that oppressed, how easily can they access euthanasia for their pets? If the government thinks it's appropriate to bludgeon the dogs to death to get rid of them, why would they give the people time to get to a vet? The town had a whopping 3 days to act. I would imagine there isn't a clinic on every street corner like we see here, but there still are other ways to euthanize. However, it is illegal for any chinese citizen to have a gun, so that might be hard to come by, too. It sounds like they could just move out of the district, but again, 3 days.

Rabies risk is also another thing to consider as well. Unlike the US which only has a few human rabies cases (Almost never from dogs), China has on average 2000 cases per year, more of those from dogs than wildlife (guessing based on the fact that across the world, people rabies cases come 90% from unvaccinated dogs which is crazy and hard for me to wrap my head around but is apparently true). It takes 70%+ dogs being vaccinated to curb rabies transmission. Extermination I guess would be another solution... Not one I would personally choose, but then that's easy for me to say as a person of western culture.

They do have a law mandating rabies vaccines and they require registration. I could see strays being a huge risk for rabies, but if a dog owner is following all of the rules, why kill that dog? (I'm not saying your advocating for that, it's rhetorical)

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think the leap was assuming they don't have shelters because they don't view dogs quite the same way as we do over here.

If you've ever paid attention to the size of that country, it is humongous. Partly because of that, it is also an extremely diverse country with pockets of populations that are essentially unrecognizable from what most westerners think of as "Chinese" people. Add to that how there is a huge population of destitute people, and a burgeoning group of extremely wealthy people of many influences with varying degrees of nationalism, you really can't think of it as a monolithic entity. It's not like the country as a whole is this backwards barbaric state that our media likes to portray it as.

Think about how different animal shelter might be in Boulder CO, vs a Podunk pound down somewhere in Arkansas where dogs and cats together are gassed down in the same chamber, and how populations in those counties might respond to different pet legislations. Now take that gradient and make it even greater.

As Dyachei pointed out, there are certainly many Chinese people who consider their pets part of their family. And there are plenty of Chinese people who volunteer their time/money to help animals in need.

That being said, the influence of the government and how much say the people have in their decisions, is another issue altogether.

 

[dyachei]

If you've ever paid attention to the size of that country, it is humongous. Partly because of that, it is also an extremely diverse country with pockets of populations that are essentially unrecognizable from what most westerners think of as "Chinese" people. Add to that how there is a huge population of destitute people, and a burgeoning group of extremely wealthy people of many influences with varying degrees of nationalism, you really can't think of it as a monolithic entity. It's not like the country as a whole is this backwards barbaric state that our media likes to portray it as.

This.

Even living in a fairly well off population in Asia, there were a lot of thoughts about dogs and cats that would not be tolerated here. But many people were very involved in the care of their animals. The issue is the governmental interference. And I would doubt that google would get you anywhere on their public health concerns. The government there is pretty tight-lipped about any potential negatives.

 

[WildZoo]

I know they have a lot of 'associations' and animal activists that place strays into foster homes and whatnot, but according to Dr. Google, there really aren't any legitimate shelters except in Beijing. Please share if you find different info, though. I'm not sure how animal activism is more acceptable than human rights activism....

I mean, Dy lived there and said there are shelters so I'll take her word for it. Granted like Minnerbelle said there is going to be huge variation between different parts of the country so there may not be any shelters near this particular village, but they exist in China. And what we see as a legitimate shelter here would probably be different than what would be seen as a legitimate shelter there, you'd have to define your terms there. I wouldn't be surprised about the internet not having much info on things like what exactly an animal shelter looks like in various parts of China.

If you've ever paid attention to the size of that country, it is humongous. Partly because of that, it is also an extremely diverse country with pockets of populations that are essentially unrecognizable from what most westerners think of as "Chinese" people. Add to that how there is a huge population of destitute people, and a burgeoning group of extremely wealthy people of many influences with varying degrees of nationalism, you really can't think of it as a monolithic entity. It's not like the country as a whole is this backwards barbaric state that our media likes to portray it as.

Think about how different animal shelter might be in Boulder CO, vs a Podunk pound down somewhere in Arkansas where dogs and cats together are gassed down in the same chamber, and how populations in those counties might respond to different pet legislations. Now take that gradient and make it even greater.

As Dyachei pointed out, there are certainly many Chinese people who consider their pets part of their family. And there are plenty of Chinese people who volunteer their time/money to help animals in need.

That being said, the influence of the government and how much say the people have in their decisions, is another issue altogether.

Oh no, I get that the way dogs are viewed is going to vary, I was just clarifying to pinkpuppy that when dy said she made a leap she was referring to the assumption that there wouldn't be shelters. I imagine their existence and how they operate depends greatly on what area you're in and what the local culture is like in terms of how animals are viewed, just like it varies in the US as you said.

 

[WildZoo]

That's a good point, but if these people are that oppressed, how easily can they access euthanasia for their pets? If the government thinks it's appropriate to bludgeon the dogs to death to get rid of them, why would they give the people time to get to a vet? The town had a whopping 3 days to act. I would imagine there isn't a clinic on every street corner like we see here, but there still are other ways to euthanize. However, it is illegal for any chinese citizen to have a gun, so that might be hard to come by, too. It sounds like they could just move out of the district, but again, 3 days.

I honestly don't know, that's why I said "if possible". If that's not an option, then fine (I'm wondering what exactly their options are for getting the dog out of the district in that case, besides just packing up and moving), but if it's available I'm just saying I think it would be better given the circumstances.

 

[WildZoo]

Of course the deadline was September 10th so presumably whatever was going to be done already has been done.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

What are the shelters like then, @dyachei?

 

[dyachei]

I mean, Dy lived there and said there are shelters so I'll take her word for it.

To be clear, I lived outside of China. But I have no doubt that they have shelters.

A quick google search turned up
Zibo Wangwangmiao Stray Animal Rescue Center

 

[pinkpuppy9]

That's interesting, the shelter you found is in the same district that is presumably killing a whole ton of dogs right now. I wonder if they were able to take some dogs in or if they were already too packed.

I wasn't stating that all of China is without shelters. I wondered what they were like if they were any, and then said I could imagine there not being any if the culture doesn't appreciate pets the same way we do. There was a bit of disconnect between my thoughts in relation to dy's post, sorry to be unclear.

http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/03/10/fourShelters10.03.html Not the best source, but it sounds like the organizations that do exist basically have to do so without ruffling government feathers. Sounds pretty intimidating.

 

[dyachei]

That's interesting, the shelter you found is in the same district that is presumably killing a whole ton of dogs right now. I wonder if they were able to take some dogs in or if they were already too packed.

That was on purpose.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

That was on purpose.

okay

 

[WildZoo]

That's interesting, the shelter you found is in the same district that is presumably killing a whole ton of dogs right now. I wonder if they were able to take some dogs in or if they were already too packed.

I wasn't stating that all of China is without shelters. I wondered what they were like if they were any, and then said I could imagine there not being any if the culture doesn't appreciate pets the same way we do. There was a bit of disconnect between my thoughts in relation to dy's post, sorry to be unclear.

http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/03/10/fourShelters10.03.html Not the best source, but it sounds like the organizations that do exist basically have to do so without ruffling government feathers. Sounds pretty intimidating.

I imagine any business or organization there has to try not to ruffle government feathers. I've been looking at the Facebook page for the shelter dy mentioned and it looks like they're doing really good work with what they've got. Plus getting donations from people in the community. So there's a good answer for what at least one shelter is like.

Someone donated these huge purple massaging recliners, the dogs were climbing all over them, it's adorable.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I imagine any business or organization there has to try not to ruffle government feathers. I've been looking at the Facebook page for the shelter dy mentioned and it looks like they're doing really good work with what they've got. Plus getting donations from people in the community. So there's a good answer for what at least one shelter is like.

Someone donated these huge purple massaging recliners, the dogs were climbing all over them, it's adorable.

A dog hasn't lived until they've plopped down into a good recliner!

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Maybe people would hide their dogs but I don't know how well they could really do that - the government knows who holds an animal license. They can easily check up on those people. What are they going to do? Keep the dog in a basement for the rest of its life, and hope their house isn't searched?

If left with no other options I would actually hope that people would take their dogs to be humanely euthanized if possible, rather than trying to hide the dog and risking that the dog ends up bludgeoned to death.

There are many in China who have hidden their "extra" illegal children for decades - they're sometimes called "black children" or "ghost children" because they officially don't exist.....growing up without formal education, health care, or jobs. There are millions of them across the country (of course, if parents pay astronomical "fines", the extra children could be registered, but those fines can often equal 5 or 10 x their yearly salary).

 

[WildZoo]

There are many in China who have hidden their "extra" illegal children for decades - they're sometimes called "black children" or "ghost children" because they officially don't exist.....growing up without formal education, health care, or jobs. There are millions of them across the country (of course, if parents pay astronomical "fines", the extra children could be registered, but those fines can often equal 5 or 10 x their yearly salary).

I realize that, but I would think it's a little different since it's not like they had a license to have an illegal child. In this case the government already knows who has an animal license, so it would be easy to single out the people who had dogs.

I also don't know what the punishment was for an illegal child that was found out. I would hope it wasn't being bludgeoned to death.

 

[Jess Monster]

I'm more than a little skeptical that they could actually eradicate the entire dog population. I would assume that whoever was behind this order is aware of that and is likely just engaging in scare tactics to manipulate people into compliance - with the law, with the local authorities, with cultural customs, etc. There may be serious public health and sanitation issues underlying the order, but I doubt that those are the only reasons or even the main reason. Rabies has been an issue for years so have strays and overpopulation. Why eliminate the dog population now? Why threaten potentially responsible pet owners who have vaccinated and licensed their dogs? Is this some kind of admission that local government is corrupt and incapable of accurate record keeping or that the use of fake vaccines is rampant? Maybe.

It's also a very public threat. Very showy. It reminds me of the kind of austere grandstanding a newly appointed/elected official would do to assert authority. Make a name for himself. Tell the public, " I mean business."