Should I finish my PhD before going to medical school?

[Hippocratic Oaf]

I am a 28-year old PhD student in Environmental Studies who decided two years ago to switch it up and go to med school. I have all pre-reqs out of the way now, 35 MCAT, 3.8 uGPA, 3.9 gGPA, and plenty of EC's. I plan to enroll Fall 2016, and am currently on track to finish my PhD just before that. But should I?

I earned my M.S. in Agroecology 1.5 years ago and started the PhD knowing I'd be applying to medical school. I figured it would look good on my application even though it's in an unrelated field; my research is on trans-disciplinary research approaches to "wicked" sustainability problems (broad and abstract - can you see why I feel the need to pursue an actual career?).

I was recently offered a research assistant position for three months this summer to be part of a clinical study on an herbal treatment for diabetes in Palau - a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that would look great on my med application. My PhD advisor is concerned (and rightfully so) about this taking me away from my research, but I can't pass it up. It will be tough, but not impossible, to convince him to let me go AND THEN try to finish my dissertation in less than a year. I am supposed to have a qualifier exam before I leave and then a prelim exam sometime in the Fall, so you could see how the timing is not so good.

So, my question to the group is, is it worth trying to crank out the PhD before I go to medical school? And, if I don't, what would it look like to AdComs if I drop out at this point? Would it show that I'm committed to med school, or that I'm not committed to finishing what I start? And, if I drop out, what should I try to do in the interim, starting in August when my Palau gig ends?

Thanks in advance.

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[TheTao]

I'd pass on the Palau experience, and wrap up the PhD. I think it would tough to explain why you dropped out when you're so close to finishing. Plus, I seriously doubt your PI will give you a good recc which med schools will be expecting.

You could always try again for the Palau experience or something else similar as Dr. Oaf the med student, which I imagine will be MUCH better received.

 

[gyngyn]

Get your degree.

 

[clausewitz2]

As someone who was in a similar position (not super hard-science PhD student applying to medical school) several years ago, I have to echo the sentiments saying you ought to finish the degree. It would be one thing if you were dropping out of the program after a year or two or leaving with a Master's - you can spin that fairly easily in a number of directions. Dropping out in the later stages looks very bad, however. Consider how this conversation will go at interviews:

"So I see you left your PhD program just as you were gearing up for your dissertation and final qualifying exams. Tell me more about that."

"Oh, see, this opportunity came up to go to a tropical island in the South Pacific, so I figured that was better than finishing what I had spent years working on."

"...."

"But I totally won't bail from this, which is frequently hard, boring, and significantly inferior to exotic travel!"

This is no doubt a deeply unfair characterization and not a good reflection of your thought process in considering this RA gig. But unfortunately medical culture is, um, quick to judgment, and I can guarantee at least some admissions people are going to see it this way.

This isn't even taking into consideration the number of programs that explicitly made acceptance contingent on PhD completion. You will have opportunities to dip back into global health during your training or after. Many of them will be more awesome because you will be able to do more. Delayed gratification is a critical skill for enduring the road you are starting down.

 

[Hippocratic Oaf]

Thank you all for the responses so far.. Actually not what I was expecting, but good to hear.

Allow me to clarify just a bit... I am actually not that far into my PhD, despite trying to finish in a little over a year from now. Aside from having the coursework finished, I would not say I have made significant progress on the dissertation. It's a very atypical PhD in that my advisor is not really qualified to advise me in this area (he's a milk machine engineer) and I am sort of making it up as I go along (I know, I know, all PhD students feel that way and that's the nature of research, but I REALLY am, trust me). Also, I've tried in vain to shift my PhD focus (at least in the applied portion) to something health-related (including using this field experience in Palau), and my advisor has resisted because it's totally out of his area - even more so than my original topic of transdisciplinarity.

Basically, my PhD process so far has been an awkward and unproductive dance, and it's not clear that that's changing any time soon. What is clear is that I want to go to medical school. Given that I am not exactly on the cusp of earning the PhD, perhaps the fact that my interests shifted, my advisor made me make a choice, and I chose medical school, would be a reasonable explanation to AdComs?

Still no?

 

[QofQuimica]

If you're only a year out from finishing, buckle down and just finish. Adcoms are full of PhDs, and no one likes a last minute quitter.

 

[clausewitz2]

Is your advisor aware of your plan to go to med school and generally okay with it? If he/she is good with it, it is maybe time to have a talk about how you can finish your program honorably and the scale of the required Least Dissertation-able Unit they want from you. If the advisor understands you are not interested at all in staying in this field, expectations may shift a bit.

If your advisor does not know about this plan or is not on board, do anything you can to fix that. Not having a letter from your PI, as noted by others, will be a serious liability.

 

[j4pac]

One of my best friends was in your shoes years ago. All he had to do was do his dissertation. He came to the conclusion that he didn't care if he was a PhD and that he wanted to be a physician. He got his acceptance letter and never looked back. How has it affected him? Academic fellowships didn't care that he didn't complete his PhD and welcomed him with open arms.

The truth is that you do NOT need the PhD initials in the back of your name once you become a physician. You may think that it will help you down the road...but it probably won't. If you want to be involved in non-medical research, your PhD may help you. But if you want to be involved in medical research...and PhD is NOT necessary.

 

[j4pac]

If you're only a year out from finishing, buckle down and just finish. Adcoms are full of PhDs, and no one likes a last minute quitter.

It's not quitting. That's a horrible way of thinking about it. He wants to get into clinical medicine...and the only way to do that is to go to medical school. I HIGHLY doubt that any adcom will hold it against him for leaving a PhD to enter medical school.

 

[ridethecliche]

It's not quitting. That's a horrible way of thinking about it. He wants to get into clinical medicine...and the only way to do that is to go to medical school. I HIGHLY doubt that any adcom will hold it against him for leaving a PhD to enter medical school.

The why the eff did the OP start a PhD if they knew they wanted to do clinical medicine? What a waste of time.

 

[clausewitz2]

It's not quitting. That's a horrible way of thinking about it. He wants to get into clinical medicine...and the only way to do that is to go to medical school. I HIGHLY doubt that any adcom will hold it against him for leaving a PhD to enter medical school.

I can tell you as a PhD who went through the med school admissions process within the last few years that every single one of my interviewers were very concerned to establish that I was planning to finish my PhD and both of the acceptances I got were explicitly contingent on my defending prior to matriculation. The other person in my class who also did a PhD prior to matriculation had the same condition imposed on him. These are obviously anecdotes in some sense, but it suggests that it is going to hurt not to finish with a non-zero number of programs.

It should also be noted that PhDs appear to be an advantage for matching into certain specialties.

 

[j4pac]

I can tell you as a PhD who went through the med school admissions process within the last few years that every single one of my interviewers were very concerned to establish that I was planning to finish my PhD and both of the acceptances I got were explicitly contingent on my defending prior to matriculation. The other person in my class who also did a PhD prior to matriculation had the same condition imposed on him. These are obviously anecdotes in some sense, but it suggests that it is going to hurt not to finish with a non-zero number of programs.

It should also be noted that PhDs appear to be an advantage for matching into certain specialties.

Again...I'm working with a sample size of one. You are working with a sample size of two. Who knows. It should also be noted that my buddy went DO...maybe it matters more for MD. He had no problem getting an elite academic fellowship without finishing his PhD.

There is some downside of finishing your PhD. Work...time...money.

 

[j4pac]

Whether or not it is justified, it is the reality. It is highly likely that every adcom will indeed hold it against him.

In my 10+ years of being in advising, where I deal primarily with nontrad students (and PhD candidates are most certainly nontrads), I have always heard from admissions staff, directors and deans, that PhD and Master's candidates need to be on track to complete their degree as well as strongly discuss their reason in considering clinical medicine. It has been described to me by one dean as a "moral" obligation to ensure that the medical school seat being offered is occupied by a highly motivated, committed and qualified candidate who will complete the training to be a doctor. Failure for an applicant to complete an PhD or other academic programs raises the question if this student will be committed to complete medical school and PGY training.

If you get your residency seat...how does their opinion matter? I don't see the issue in getting a medical school acceptance and focus his time, effort, and money at what he wants to do with his career...clinical medicine. Now if he is not getting medical school acceptances...then yeah...it could be a reason why he is being overlooked because otherwise the guy's stats are stellar.

 

[clausewitz2]

OP, do you have an acceptance in hand? If so, then sure, it probably doesn't matter if you quit or not. J4pac's point that it matters much less for residency is probably right on, but that is putting the cart several miles before the post if I parse your post correctly.

 

[Hippocratic Oaf]

Clause, your parsing is correct - I do NOT have acceptances in hand. And to answer the earlier question, yes he knows I plan to go straight to medical school and yes he is OK with it. We are actually quite close on a personal level.

It sounds like the wise thing to do is just buck up and finish. I may be able to pare down the Palau experience to a length that my advisor would be OK with, and still finish. I have also been getting more and more of an impression that the people in Palau don't have their shizz together and it might not be worth my time, anyway.

Also good to have your dissenting opinion, j4pac. My initial instinct was similar; in a way you'd think some AdComs would almost expect me to drop out once I realized I was in the wrong field and knew I wanted to be in medicine instead.

Thanks all.

 

[clausewitz2]

Having your advisor on side is a very valuable thing. Whatever you end up doing, try and make sure that doesn't change.

 

[Areopagus]

My $0.02...

You'll illicit more negative reactions than positives during your admissions cycle if you leave your Ph.D.

There's a politics of solidarity between MD admissions and Ph.D programs/faculty. The physician is a scientist too. Don't forget that. If there wasn't this quasi-unwritten agreement that students have to finish whatever graduate programs they're in, thousands of MD hopefuls would be backing up with Ph.D programs, only to leave when they received their MD acceptances. This wastes huge amounts of research $$$$ and time. The "finish whatever grad program you started" rule is a way to ensure that stuff like this doesn't happen too often.

My great friend, and the smartest woman I personally know, knew she hated research within a year of her Ph.D in medicinal chemistry. She was told by various admissions committee members that her applications to medical school would not be considered if she had no intention of finishing out her Ph.D. She listed, finished up her Ph.D, and applied 4 years later.

I hope you don't learn this lesson the hard way.

Cheers

 

[QofQuimica]

It's not quitting. That's a horrible way of thinking about it. He wants to get into clinical medicine...and the only way to do that is to go to medical school. I HIGHLY doubt that any adcom will hold it against him for leaving a PhD to enter medical school.

With all respect, I suspect you are not familiar with how things work in academia. You think adcoms and other academic colleagues would not hold it against the OP for quitting his/her PhD a year out from finishing? Well, I will go on record as saying that I sure would. And so would many of my colleagues, both MDs and PhDs. Most importantly, if the OP's PI would hold it against him/her, that would not bode well for the OPs future in science or medicine. Pissing off one's PI would be a poorly chosen bridge to burn.

FWIW, I've been on both sides (I'm a PhD-to-MD myself), and you reach a point where, really, there is nothing to gain and much to lose by not finishing. The hardest part of getting a PhD is making it through quals, which the OP has presumably done. While grad school attrition is high early on, most people who make it that far in their program make it through to the end. So yes, the OP will stand out if s/he is one of the smaller group who does not graduate with a degree after passing quals.

On a more practical note, does the OP have med school acceptance in hand, ready to start in August? No. S/he will need to apply this summer and take a gap year regardless. Why not finish the PhD during that time, avoid burning bridges, and have something to show for his/her time in grad school? While the PhD may never be of huge help for a medical career, dropping out at the last minute may be of harm. And it's not like finishing the degree will prevent, or even delay, the OP from going to med school.

 

[Hippocratic Oaf]

Does anyone have an idea how likely it is that schools will make my acceptance contingent on completion of my PhD? Is it common to make conditional acceptances like this? Will some do it and not others? Anyone have experiences with this?

I do plan to finish, but you just never know.

 

[Annaleise]

I finished my PhD and even did a fellowship to try to save up some money before medical school.
If you're within one or even two years of finishing, I say go for it.
Dropping out with a Master's is only worth it within the first year or year and a half.

After that, there's NO way I would accept anything less than a PhD for all that work and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

 

[Annaleise]

Does anyone have an idea how likely it is that schools will make my acceptance contingent on completion of my PhD? Is it common to make conditional acceptances like this? Will some do it and not others? Anyone have experiences with this?

I do plan to finish, but you just never know.

Most likely, they would like a letter from your PI along the lines of "yes, (s)he is in the process of preparing to defend and will be done in time to enroll in your program." Without that letter they probably won't even advance your application and it's doubtful you would even get to the point of an acceptance without it.
I was told I need that kind of letter from the NIH fellowship committee since they're in control of my funding/my life for this year.

 

[lovesfall]

But for a PhD I'd finish, if you're that close to the end.

 

[atomi]

Screw your phd. Academicians tend to be uptight and jealous and want people to suffer the same torture they themselves endured. If you want to be a doctor (for monetary reasons or whatever), then your phd is agriculture is essentially worthless. If you are 100% committed to this, then leave now and go have your fun in palau (which, despite the feels of the phds of the world, there is nothing wrong with). Adcoms are academicians and will judge you for this (whereas if you had selected a place in africa, you would be fine, but you selected a place with a beach and beach = vacation, which = lazy and probably entitled or independently not poor), but if your numbers are there you'll get in somewhere. After this, your past largely doesn't matter any more and it becomes about what you do in med school. If you get the PhD, you can put that on your white coat (MD PhD), but it's not going to get you any points because it's a non-medical degree.

Your plan to go to the south pacific for a summer on a diabetes project makes no sense in the context of a phd in agriculture. I think you're kidding yourself if you think your program is going to let you do this and fluff your way through the rest of the degree just so you can get their credential and pursue a far more lucrative career path than they themselves have chosen. More likely, they're going to try to sink you and make your life miserable. Since this thread is full of nothing of opinions of strangers that mean nothing, I figured I might as well add mine.

 

[Dral]

As another PhD to MD I'll chime in. I can't even believe this even being asked. Imo, you should finish it...especially if you end up wanting to go into a competitive field.

One thinks a PhD is a good advantage to getting into medschool and beyond. Not always. I think it actually hindered me sometimes. Everyone thinks you finish the PhD, then realize academia is too rough, so time for medical school. You have to explain and convince why that is not the case. I applied to a competitive specialty and I wished so badly I didn't have to get into my PhD stuff at every single interview. Explain it all, try to convince them I didn't switch to medicine just for a more lucrative and stable career.

Based on my experience:
MD/PhD: genuinely wanted the PhD to apply to medicine. Fabulous.
PhD to MD: realized academics was too tough, now wants the 'easy' money route.

Now you're thinking, "why have a PhD if there could be negatives?" In your case, here is why:

Now someone who gets within striking distance of a PhD and ditches? Wow, now that really looks like you are jumping ship for greener pastures, and don't even have the resolve to stick it out.

You will have to explain to ad coms and residency interviews what you were doing with those years. Either you were too inept to finish a masters in 2 years, or you ditched on a PhD. Both look bad, and worse than sticking out the PhD...it's not like finishing will likely push back starting med school.

Opinion +1

Listen to what the PhDs to MDs are saying...we've been through it.

 

[Petypet]

Another Phd to med school here. I too had my school say you must complete your degree prior to matriculation. That said, several other schools didn't seem to care, and just liked me for my grades/scores. At the end of the day, having a PhD has greatly helped me with every stage; talking points on applications, familiar with research and got a few more pubs in med school, also on a different level of maturity as compared to other students. So if you are 100% committed to med school, put your self in the best position to graduate quickly because the med school road is every bit of strenuous and PITA as everyone says it is (which means not doing something to enhance your med school app and doing what you want to do to get in). When I applied my advisor 100% knew I was starting med school and ensured me that he would do everything he could to ensure graduation. That said, I ended up deferring a year for a post-doctoral fellowship which ended up not adding anything more than the PhD. Biggest $300000 mistake because it is a year less of attending salary and I am not going into pediatric heme/onc.

That said as a previous poster mentioned you would get in next year if you apply, but in my n = 1 experience, having the PhD is a plus, and not having would have had some implications in what I plan do.

 

[CBSstalker]

Here is what I was told by a medical school admissions officer: medical schools know that graduate programs spend tons of money on PhD and Masters degree students. So, medical schools do not want to be "responsible" for graduate programs wasting money on students who up and quit for medical school. To them it feels like they are almost "stealing" students from their grad programs.