Should physicians be armed?

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Should physicians be allowed to arm themselves?

  • Yes

    Votes: 92 27.1%
  • No

    Votes: 92 27.1%
  • There should be armed security instead

    Votes: 156 45.9%

  • Total voters
    340
Actually being in reasonable fear for your loss of life or serious bodily harm with no avenue of retreat....does give you the right to shoot in Florida

Pursuant to the "A man's home is his castle" law, all a person has to do is put 2/3rds of his body into your home to become a legal target. Gotta love the south.

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Much like public health classes, drivers ed, and Medicaid paying for vaccinations I think it is reasonble for the public to pay for training that benifts the public beyond the individual. I think that making sure that gun owner know how to be gun users is part of that.


I think it is far more reasonable for prospective gun owners to be mandated to take gun safety training courses as well as undergo a character evaluation before being allowed to purchase a gun, and they must pay for the training and evaluation out of their own pocket.
 
Actually being in reasonable fear for your loss of life or serious bodily harm with no avenue of retreat....does give you the right to shoot in Florida

Then you may have to face consequences....maybe you'll be okay in the eyes of the law, but I've seen employees fired/lose their liscense for simply striking a patient. I've seen it happen when patients attack an employee and other employees strike them (never seen it when an employee pushes away or strikes simply as a means to escape). You're supposed to safely restrain him not punch him in the face (according to policy). Now imagine if a patient were to be shot by the employee/doctor. Maybe you would face no jail time (true case of self defense), but you can probably kiss your job/practice goodbye.
 
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Said the guy that presumably never had a pistol pointed in his face (I am assuming).

Experience has a funny way of changing such hardened opinions.

But by the by, I am all for giving someone on the support staff (nurses, etc) tasers. Let's face it, doctors aren't interacting with the public enough to be an effective deterrent anyway, hahahaha.

You assume wrong. And having gone through that experience I know that more guns don't solve problems with guns...

You disgust me dude. Good luck being a physician, or getting in for that matter.
 
You assume wrong. And having gone through that experience I know that more guns don't solve problems with guns...

You disgust me dude. Good luck being a physician, or getting in for that matter.

Such hatred over an opinion. Wow, if you could dial it back a notch, that would be great, thanks!
 
You assume wrong. And having gone through that experience I know that more guns don't solve problems with guns

That's how every police dept and military in the world solves them with very few exceptions
 
Pursuant to the "A man's home is his castle" law, all a person has to do is put 2/3rds of his body into your home to become a legal target. Gotta love the south.

Still have to be in reasonable fear,( i.e. can't shoot someone in the back as they are leaving)
 
That's how every police dept and military in the world solves them with very few exceptions

As a physician, in a hospital, you abdicate this position you speak of.

Wake up kids, you guys want to be physicians. Behave accordingly. Or fake it till you make it then spew your "genius" ideas afterwards.
 
Legal and right are different things, I grasp the legality in certain places and I fully back an employers right to disallow carry on their property. But it should never be a legal requirement for a lawful citizen to not carry anywhere (shy of the mentioned property owner not allowing it)
 
Armed security. Some patients will be uncomfortable with an armed doctor, but all patients will be comfortable with an unarmed doctor.
 
Pursuant to the "A man's home is his castle" law, all a person has to do is put 2/3rds of his body into your home to become a legal target. Gotta love the south.

And my home state of PA. I love that we have this law on the books. Its ridiculous that you should have to retreat out of your own home if someone busts through your front door with violent intent.
 
Legal and right are different things, I grasp the legality in certain places and I fully back an employers right to disallow carry on their property. But it should never be a legal requirement for a lawful citizen to not carry anywhere (shy of the mentioned property owner not allowing it)

You're splitting hairs.

If people like you were committed to helping the people around them as you are devoted to your outdated and arcane love for the 2nd amendment and guns then our society would be a far different place.

Living a long and healthy life is a G-d given right, not the 2nd amendment that was fabricated by men for a far different purpose that what it is interpreted to be today.
 
You're splitting hairs.

If people like you were committed to helping the people around them as you are devoted to your outdated and arcane love for the 2nd amendment and guns then our society would be a far different place.

Living a long and healthy life is a G-d given right, not the 2nd amendment that was fabricated by men for a far different purpose that what it is interpreted to be today.

You act as if caring about people and wanting the caring about the ability to defend myself and my family are mutually exclusive.....I have enough caring to accomplish both just fine
 
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You act as if caring about people and wanting the caring about the ability to defend myself and my family are mutually exclusive.....I have enough caring to accomplish both just fine

Says the guy who has gone on a gun-posting binge in the past few days.

Good luck dude. You and your potential patients will need it. If you ever get that far.
 
Says the guy who has gone on a gun-posting binge in the past few days.

Good luck dude. You and your potential patients will need it. If you ever get that far.

I've only responded to those wishing to restrict my rights. You seem upset though, a few deep breaths might be in order.
 
You're splitting hairs.

If people like you were committed to helping the people around them as you are devoted to your outdated and arcane love for the 2nd amendment and guns then our society would be a far different place.

Living a long and healthy life is a G-d given right, not the 2nd amendment that was fabricated by men for a far different purpose that what it is interpreted to be today.

Oh boy, so you are an anti-gun guy. Hey, I don't fault you for it, I am a pretty progressive guy. But I think there are certain realities you are choosing to ignore here.

One, just because you are a physician, you are not going to be exempt from violence. In many circles of this country, you would be considered a prime target, because you're just a rich guy that has WAY more than the guy with a weapon. You do not think that there are not people out there that want to follow you to your car at the end of your shift and take EVERYTHING? Wake up, sir. You are going to become part of the 1%. Perhaps you should consider this.

Two, I agree with your thinking that the spirit of the 2nd Amendment is not as applicable as a lot would make it out to be. I would imagine that that bit was put in there because back in colonial times, if you weren't part of her Majesty's military, you couldn't have a weapon, making you a sitting duck for English aggression. With you there. But not every physician is going to work in a posh neighborhood with friendly people and a devil-may-care atmosphere. There are going to be physicians working in inner cities, deep country, or in war zones, where there are aggressive people that want your stuff, and you're just a nerd with a fat wallet and a nice car.

All of your high-mindedness will get you NO where there. You can't reason with a wanna-be gangsta or a hungry homeless man. I applaud your tenacity in this...but if you find yourself in that unfortunate situation where someone has kicked down your door and started firing, it's going to be too late to change your mind.

And by the way...we are a country of DIVERSE culture. In some areas, carrying a weapon is no different than carrying a fork at a picnic. (shrug)
 
You're splitting hairs.

If people like you were committed to helping the people around them as you are devoted to your outdated and arcane love for the 2nd amendment and guns then our society would be a far different place.

Living a long and healthy life is a G-d given right, not the 2nd amendment that was fabricated by men for a far different purpose that what it is interpreted to be today.

If you were cornered by a patient in a room and he assaulted you, would you just curl up in a ball and take it, since you took an oath to "do no harm?"

The patient-doctor relationship is a two way street. If they willingly and knowingly threaten or endanger you, that relationship is broken, and you should respond accordingly. Guy in the ED verbally threatening you? Tell him he's free to leave at any time but you're unwilling to treat him if he behaves that way. He takes a swing at you? Try to escape, but if you can't, you do what you have to in order to protect yourself. He poses a real threat to your life (possessing a gun, knife, or something else)? I'm fine with whatever level of force it takes to come out alive, just as if it was a stranger on the street threatening me. Because that's what they are at that point: they've broken the patient-doctor relationship.
 
Says the guy who has gone on a gun-posting binge in the past few days.

Good luck dude. You and your potential patients will need it. If you ever get that far.

And please, sir, enough with the "if you don't agree with me, you are not getting into medical school" insinuations. It makes you seem petty.
 
If I hear gunshots or see lives in imminent danger, training kicks in. It wouldn't be my job to let the guy kill me, oath or no oath, sorry.

You and I come from the same mentality. I was not a Corpsmen, but you were clearly were attached to a Marine Infantry unit. I never saw any combat action, but I know what to do if a "situation" were to arise.
 
You and I come from the same mentality. I was not a Corpsmen, but you were clearly were attached to a Marine Infantry unit. I never saw any combat action, but I know what to do if a "situation" were to arise.

You didn't miss much, sir. Combat sucks, and I wasn't able to save everyone.

And hey, once a Marine... :)
 
Couldn't it be argued that a doctor defending multiple patients, by thwarting (killing even) a dangerous patient that is armed and threatening an ER full of people, IS, in fact, living up to the hippocratic oath? I'd say that I took care of this pathogen (metaphor, obviously) that threatened all these people.
 
And please, sir, enough with the "if you don't agree with me, you are not getting into medical school" insinuations. It makes you seem petty.

+1. I was going to say something about this, but you already did.

We get it, you're in medical school. Get over yourself, it doesn't give you badge that says you're right about everything, or anything at all.
 
I did some research too, and there have been a few (VERY FEW) physician victims over the past few years, and it seems like most happen during the walk from the hospital/office to the garage/your car. Either way, if someone approaches you with the intent to assassinate you, concealing a gun isn't gonna do well to thwart this. I'd say the best strategy would be to try your best to not make people want to assassinate you. Or work on that BJJ training.

These attacks are gruesome...maybe you haven't done your ED rotation yet :). My point was that car "attacks" are certainly less frequent than gun attacks.
Honestly, while I would advocate some people work on self-defense classes, I would rather not. You do sparring and drills, and I value my hands at a few bucks apiece as a surgeon. I'm not going to risk them on punching bags. I'd much rather carry a firearm.

I've done two rotations in the ED, seen hundreds of car crash victims, a few dozen GSWs, and not a single hammer incident.

All of this doesn't give us the Okay to SHOOT a patient with our concealed firearm if we feel threatened. A dead patient is a dead patient is a dead patient. And you would be right in the hot seat by both the public and the board. Maybe you'd get away scotfree, but maybe not...it would be really out of your hands at that point, and....well....sometimes life just isn't fair.
Yes, actually, it does. In my state, if I were cornered and had good reason to believe that I were in imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm, then I can use deadly force.

You're going to tell me that I should be okay with a patient killing me while I remain defenseless, because life isn't fair? No, no and no. I'm going to tell you that it is legal for me to use deadly force against someone who is trying to kill me or cause severe bodily harm. This is not "out of my hands" or "in the hot seat." This is me knowing the laws of my state and knowing what I am able to do in a given situation.

Then you may have to face consequences....maybe you'll be okay in the eyes of the law, but I've seen employees fired/lose their liscense for simply striking a patient. I've seen it happen when patients attack an employee and other employees strike them (never seen it when an employee pushes away or strikes simply as a means to escape). You're supposed to safely restrain him not punch him in the face (according to policy). Now imagine if a patient were to be shot by the employee/doctor. Maybe you would face no jail time (true case of self defense), but you can probably kiss your job/practice goodbye.
I'd love to see the headline "Surgeon fired after shooting assailant." Then they show the picture of you in a tie with your white coat, and they show one of the assailant's last twelve mug shots.

If you had good reason to believe you should restrain him, but you didn't, and then you let the situation escalate until he was hitting you, then you probably will be found somewhat liable. If you didn't realize the guy had been doing PCP prior to coming in with chest pain, and you walk in the door as he lunges for your throat, then I'm not going to focus on "safely restraining him" until I'm safe.

As a physician, in a hospital, you abdicate this position you speak of.
No, I didn't.

The patient-doctor relationship is a two way street. If they willingly and knowingly threaten or endanger you, that relationship is broken, and you should respond accordingly. Guy in the ED verbally threatening you? Tell him he's free to leave at any time but you're unwilling to treat him if he behaves that way. He takes a swing at you? Try to escape, but if you can't, you do what you have to in order to protect yourself. He poses a real threat to your life (possessing a gun, knife, or something else)? I'm fine with whatever level of force it takes to come out alive, just as if it was a stranger on the street threatening me. Because that's what they are at that point: they've broken the patient-doctor relationship.
Exactly. I would absolutely try to the utter best of my ability to de-escalate a situation. I'd get out of the room as soon as I were actually concerned, call security, maybe the police, get more people in the room, try to be reasonable, etc. I understand that patients/family get extremely stressed in some of these situations, but just because someone does a line of coke and drinks a handle of vodka doesn't mean I'm willing to believe that "sometimes life isn't fair," and I should be willing to give up my life and hope my children don't miss their father too much.


Again, I don't think physicians should be armed in the hospital.
The risk:benefit ratio is extremely high. I don't think physicians are in any significant danger in the vast, vast majority of situations, and I think that 99.99% of situations can be resolved by calling in more staff, security, or even the police. But I don't believe that a weapon-wielding patient deserves to be treated any differently than a weapon-wielding street thug. You should take every precaution necessary as soon as you realize that someone may be acting abnormally to prevent a situation from getting out of hand though. I have had patients threaten to hit me, so I stood across the room, had 4-5 other people in there to talk the guy down, and repeated myself over and over again.
 
If you were cornered by a patient in a room and he assaulted you, would you just curl up in a ball and take it, since you took an oath to "do no harm?"

The patient-doctor relationship is a two way street. If they willingly and knowingly threaten or endanger you, that relationship is broken, and you should respond accordingly. Guy in the ED verbally threatening you? Tell him he's free to leave at any time but you're unwilling to treat him if he behaves that way. He takes a swing at you? Try to escape, but if you can't, you do what you have to in order to protect yourself. He poses a real threat to your life (possessing a gun, knife, or something else)? I'm fine with whatever level of force it takes to come out alive, just as if it was a stranger on the street threatening me. Because that's what they are at that point: they've broken the patient-doctor relationship.

A fair idea, but this just doesn't happen. No you don't curl in a ball....you push him back and escape, and that's it! If he keeps coming at you, call for help and restrain him with some colleagues! Most patients will not chase you out and will realize they are vastly outnumbered.

An agitated patient shouldn't be close enough to take a swing, and you should always be between him and the door. The patient should never be between you and the exit to the room! He shouldn't have a weapon: That's why patients all change into a hospital gown and bag their clothes! If you get a bad feeling, tell them to change! If you still have a bad feeling, enter with another nurse/doctor or with a guard! I never enter an agitated patient's room alone until I've already introduced myself, and feel comfortable I will be safe! If you see a weapon, get out! Call people who can handle it! (security, police). Communicate with your patients! Communicate with your coworkers! Communicate with security!

Common sense people! Let's use some of that intelligence that is supposed to be getting us into medical school.

I don't know where you get the idea that hospitals are places where patients enter a room and come out blasting with weapons at physicians completely unprovoked. This is not TV!

There should never be any reason to draw a weapon...it will ruin the confidence of patients in their physicians if doctors were armed and clearly didn't trust their patients. That is NOT how you build a relationship, and if this were to start happening....I guarantee patients will also arm up before they come to see you!
 
What about those of us who are trained to handle such situations, and then try to become physicians? Not busting your chops, but curious to your opinions. I do agree that most physicians, and civilians in general, do not have the requisite training to handle these situations, and if they tried any sort of "hero" tactic, they would more often than not make matters much worse.

I said before that I feel a lot better if a veteran was carrying than an average citizen. You hit the nail on the head. It's not that I just hate guns (I don't love them, but that's not the thing that bothers me most). What bothers me is that everyone thinks that they will be able to defend themselves without making the situation worse for them as well as for innocent people around.

I don't believe most people should be armed in general but arming ER physicians would be significantly worse. Even with proper training, I would be hesitant to say any physician should carry. The chance of actually needing to use the weapon is extremely rare, and when are busy in a crowded ER, I don't think guns should even be used at all unless it is really necessary. There should be security around to worry about that sort of thing.
 
You're going to tell me that I should be okay with a patient killing me while I remain defenseless, because life isn't fair? No, no and no. I'm going to tell you that it is legal for me to use deadly force against someone who is trying to kill me or cause severe bodily harm. This is not "out of my hands" or "in the hot seat." This is me knowing the laws of my state and knowing what I am able to do in a given situation.


I'd love to see the headline "Surgeon fired after shooting assailant." Then they show the picture of you in a tie with your white coat, and they show one of the assailant's last twelve mug shots.

If you had good reason to believe you should restrain him, but you didn't, and then you let the situation escalate until he was hitting you, then you probably will be found somewhat liable. If you didn't realize the guy had been doing PCP prior to coming in with chest pain, and you walk in the door as he lunges for your throat, then I'm not going to focus on "safely restraining him" until I'm safe.

At the bolded statement....for realz?:eek:

I understand what you're saying, I truly do, but I don't think we're seeing eye-to-eye and fully understanding one another. I'm not saying doctors should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of a bunch of anti-physician gun-wielding lunatics. I just don't think there would ever be a situation where it is okay to shoot a patient. If someone opens fire on an entire ED, then sure....but there will already be armed security response....they can shoot him. That should not be on the doctor's shoulders. Like I said....if you happen to have a loaded gun in some locked cabinet, then sure, whatever, use "deadly force"....you'll probably be considered a hero, and you will have saved lives for sure. Hopefully you won't misfire and hit an innocent, or draw fire on yourself for arming up, but I dunno....this situation is so rare (yet possible) it's almost inconcievable.

Other than that above situation, there is zero reason why you should shoot a patient. If he as a gun pointed at you? at someone else? You're really going to risk drawing your own to shoot him? He will FIRE!

He has a knife? GET OUT.

He lunges at your throat? Unless your name is QuickDraw, how is a gun going to save you!?

I don't mean to attack your points specifically, but some of the scenarios being postulated on this thread in general are absolutely ridiculous! And your license is not protected by any laws, so whatever the law is in your state is irrelevant. I'm saying that once you shoot your patient, it is out of your hands and you WILL be in the hot seat. Hospitals do not want to endorse physicians shooting patients, and much of the public won't either.

I understand that you don't think physicians should be armed....we agree here.
 
An agitated patient shouldn't be close enough to take a swing, and you should always be between him and the door. The patient should never be between you and the exit to the room! He shouldn't have a weapon: That's why patients all change into a hospital gown and bag their clothes! If you get a bad feeling, tell them to change! If you still have a bad feeling, enter with another nurse/doctor or with a guard! I never enter an agitated patient's room alone until I've already introduced myself, and feel comfortable I will be safe! If you see a weapon, get out! Call people who can handle it! (security, police). Communicate with your patients! Communicate with your coworkers! Communicate with security!

Aren't you the same guy who said all of your coworkers have been assaulted at least once?

You can't always predict human behavior. I'm fully aware that I should try to keep a clear route of egress and that there's strength in numbers. But sometimes there are no signs that there's trouble until it's too late to back out.


I don't know where you get the idea that hospitals are places where patients enter a room and come out blasting with weapons at physicians completely unprovoked. This is not TV!

There should never be any reason to draw a weapon...it will ruin the confidence of patients in their physicians if doctors were armed and clearly didn't trust their patients. That is NOT how you build a relationship, and if this were to start happening....I guarantee patients will also arm up before they come to see you!

I didn't know elementary schools were places where people enter a room and come out blasting completely unprovoked either, but it happened. And I had a coworker who was on disability for a few months after being attacked with a piece of medical equipment that a patient re-purposed as a weapon. She was knocked unconscious and still had lingering neurological symptoms when she quit another month or two after coming back to the job. That patient was also unprovoked, and he came out of his room with a vengeance.

I'm not advocating armed doctors either, but this idea that it's never okay to defend yourself against an assault in the hospital if you're a physician is insanity.
 
Aren't you the same guy who said all of your coworkers have been assaulted at least once?

You can't always predict human behavior. I'm fully aware that I should try to keep a clear route of egress and that there's strength in numbers. But sometimes there are no signs that there's trouble until it's too late to back out.




I didn't know elementary schools were places where people enter a room and come out blasting completely unprovoked either, but it happened. And I had a coworker who was on disability for a few months after being attacked with a piece of medical equipment that a patient re-purposed as a weapon. She was knocked unconscious and still had lingering neurological symptoms when she quit another month or two after coming back to the job. That patient was also unprovoked, and he came out of his room with a vengeance.

I'm not advocating armed doctors either, but this idea that it's never okay to defend yourself against an assault in the hospital if you're a physician is insanity.

Again, this is fine. Defending yourself =/= using deadly force. Ya most ED workers have been assaulted. We escaped with our fat lips and black eyes, and we did just fine. It happens. Does not mean we can start killing our patients. Have any of you guys been in a fight before? Unless you're going toe-to-toe with mike tyson it's not going to be "2 hits: my fist hittin yo face and yo face hittin the flooh!" There is plenty of room for escape and defense before you're killing another person.
 
Again, this is fine. Defending yourself =/= using deadly force. Ya most ED workers have been assaulted. We escaped with our fat lips and black eyes, and we did just fine. It happens. Does not mean we can start killing our patients. Have any of you guys been in a fight before? Unless you're going toe-to-toe with mike tyson it's not going to be "2 hits: my fist hittin yo face and yo face hittin the flooh!" There is plenty of room for escape and defense before you're killing another person.

You place a lot of responisbility on medical staff to be skilled at physical altercations and evasions, medical staff are there to heal and not to spar.

If a patient decides to start endangering the lives of others and a person, even a doctor, does not think they can be subdued with out further risk to innocents...deadly force is a real option. It is a serious and sober option, but pretending like it isn't there is dangerous.
 
You place a lot of responisbility on medical staff to be skilled at physical altercations and evasions, medical staff are there to heal and not to spar.

If a patient decides to start endangering the lives of others and a person, even a doctor, does not think they can be subdued with out further risk to innocents...deadly force is a real option. It is a serious and sober option, but pretending like it isn't there is dangerous.

and not to shoot either!
 
I understand what you're saying, I truly do, but I don't think we're seeing eye-to-eye and fully understanding one another. I'm not saying doctors should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of a bunch of anti-physician gun-wielding lunatics. I just don't think there would ever be a situation where it is okay to shoot a patient. If someone opens fire on an entire ED, then sure....but there will already be armed security response....they can shoot him. That should not be on the doctor's shoulders. Like I said....if you happen to have a loaded gun in some locked cabinet, then sure, whatever, use "deadly force"....you'll probably be considered a hero, and you will have saved lives for sure. Hopefully you won't misfire and hit an innocent, or draw fire on yourself for arming up, but I dunno....this situation is so rare (yet possible) it's almost inconcievable.

Other than that above situation, there is zero reason why you should shoot a patient. If he as a gun pointed at you? at someone else? You're really going to risk drawing your own to shoot him? He will FIRE!

He has a knife? GET OUT.

He lunges at your throat? Unless your name is QuickDraw, how is a gun going to save you!?
There's never a situation. It's almost inconceivable. And then you posted an example in which you think it would be justified. Okay.

I don't know what else you want me to say, because I wasn't just talking about shooting someone. You mentioned punching them in the face or "simply striking" them, both of which seem like pretty reasonable methods to defend yourself, but you said they're forbidden. I don't carry a gun, nor do I plan to at the hospital, so I'm not sure how relevant my quickdraw technique is.

I don't mean to attack your points specifically, but some of the scenarios being postulated on this thread in general are absolutely ridiculous! And your license is not protected by any laws, so whatever the law is in your state is irrelevant. I'm saying that once you shoot your patient, it is out of your hands and you WILL be in the hot seat. Hospitals do not want to endorse physicians shooting patients, and much of the public won't either.
My state law is irrelevant? What are you talking about? In my state, the state law is relevant to everyone at every time. It governs my medical license. I would know, because I've read the laws regarding medical licensure. I also know that the public would endorse protecting yourself from an unprovoked attack, because it doesn't matter who you are - it matters who the assailant is.
 
There's never a situation. It's almost inconceivable. And then you posted an example in which you think it would be justified. Okay.

Yes. ALMOST inconceivable. As far as I know, the scenario that I gave, the one which would MAYBE justify a physician shooting someone with his own concealed weapon while in a hospital, has never occurred in all the history of hospitals. No precedent = unprecedented = ?? I dunno what would happen to the parties involved, and neither do you.

You place a lot of responisbility on medical staff to be skilled at physical altercations and evasions, medical staff are there to heal and not to spar.

If a patient decides to start endangering the lives of others and a person, even a doctor, does not think they can be subdued with out further risk to innocents...deadly force is a real option. It is a serious and sober option, but pretending like it isn't there is dangerous.

and not to shoot either!

And the police are just here to keep the peace and hand out baseball cards.

:confused: Please read the context of what I'm saying before you attack me.

I think I've made my opinion about arming physicians pretty articulated, as you have yours, (and they aren't really in disagreement!) so I'll just leave it at that and avoid further argument.
 
Really? You're telling me your hospital employs swat to protect the ED? I gotta side with the other guy - every hospital security guard I've ever met strikes fear in the heart of appx 0 potential criminals.

Exactly.

Also, I'd look to Switzerland as a model country for gun laws. They require all males to complete compulsory military service for 2 years. With that kind of training, there's no surprise that they have some of the lowest levels of violent crime in the world.
 
Really? You're telling me your hospital employs swat to protect the ED? I gotta side with the other guy - every hospital security guard I've ever met strikes fear in the heart of appx 0 potential criminals.
Ours as well. It's mostly 55+ year-old men and women who *might* be able to run the length of the hallway.
 
Exactly.

Also, I'd look to Switzerland as a model country for gun laws. They require all males to complete compulsory military service for 2 years. With that kind of training, there's no surprise that they have some of the lowest levels of violent crime in the world.

I'm actually for conscription. I think it would be very good for the attitude of our youth, and would instill a sense of nationalism in all citizens.
 
I'm actually for conscription. I think it would be very good for the attitude of our youth, and would instill a sense of nationalism in all citizens.

This could make for an interesting situation. I wonder if the economy could handle the burden of training its entire population (much larger than Switzerland's), and I wonder how it will work when we are training refugees to potentially fight against their native countries where they may or may not have family. Makes me skeptical that conscription could work in a country like the U.S., though I have to agree that the country could use a little nationalism.
 
Love this debate!

I live close to where the shootings occurred. I have friends who live in the neighborhood, and friends who work at the neighboring Easton Country Day School. This issue is close to my home and heart.

OK, let's face it: the tragedy that unfolded at Sandy Hook Elementary Schools has left all of us indignant. This sort of thing should not happen. All of the ensuing debate is just due to conflicting personalities speaking their mind on the very same sentiment: a strong desire to protect others, and to feel protected. Let's remember that guys- we want the same end, but have different means to achieve it in mind.

In my family, we generally "pack heat" (some of us are licensed to conceal firearms, others are not- I will not reveal which category I fall under) I believe that concealed firearms have the potential to save lives in many situations. They also have the potential, as some of you pointed out, to escalate situations and do more harm than good. If you would like to come forward to make a strong case that one situation occurs more frequently than the other, I will read patiently as you make a fool out of yourself. It is not as simple as citing a few instances of either case. There is no proof by example.

I know one thing: in some states, and in some hospitals, physicians may legally carry a handgun. It is reasonable to assume, I think, that some do. Why would a physician want to conceal a weapon in a hospital? The same reason they would want to conceal a weapon anywhere else: to protect themselves. For those of us who chose to exercise our constitutional right (and you may argue that the constitution should be amended,) the exclamation "but it just makes things worse!" is like telling a person that he or she should always take a taxi, since it is safer than driving. Yes, there are people trained to protect us, but in their absence or failure, there absolutely must be an alternative to being killed.

I say more handguns in good hands, fewer handguns in bad hands.

I will admit, though, that I have heard very convincing counter arguments. For example, following the shootings, someone compulsively suggested arming teachers with handguns. I have met teachers for whom this mandate would be well suited. Then I looked up "crazy teachers" on YouTube, and saw footage of a 6th grade teacher physically assaulting a student in the hallway. What if a firearm had been in the room? The situation could have been disastrous.

This is a really, really, tough question. Still, I support those who exercise their right to protect themselves and other effectively defenseless individuals in their home, place of work, or community. Carrying a legally owned and concealed handgun entails huge responsibility, and the proper training to ensure that an opportunity to save a life never becomes more dangerous due to its presence.
 
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Next question: Would surgeons have better aim than other docs? I mean, surgeons need steady hands.
 
We pay for policemen to patrol the freeways to make sure that other people are responsible in using the cars that they chose to procure.


I help people who want my help or would want my help if they were thinking clearly. People who are thinking clearly, don't want my help, and are threatening me do not get my help.


You can turn a car into a deadly weapon.

Perrotfish is arguing that people will be safer if we decrease gun mishaps. I don't think we necessarily need marksmanship classes, but if you don't know the difference between a magazine and a clip, an automatic or a semi-automatic, a safety or an action or a hammer, or a shotgun vs a rifle, then I think teaching people the basic rules of firearm safety is a good idea.


And if you stumble across one? Almost half of the households in the country have one.


Finally someone who actually knows what he is talking about
 
And please, sir, enough with the "if you don't agree with me, you are not getting into medical school" insinuations. It makes you seem petty.

Never insinuated the such. In fact, I'll root for your chances to get in, despite our differences. Don't trip home slice. You can hold on to your 2nd amendment as it exists now, and enjoy it while you do. 4 more years baby.
 
Next question: Would surgeons have better aim than other docs? I mean, surgeons need steady hands.

They would be good snipers...just don't get them angry!

If I do stumble upon one, I wouldn't touch it. I know the general rule of "Guns are loaded until proven otherwise". Other than that, I don't see myself ever touching a gun. If they force physicians to carry weapons, I would feel horrible if they force me to learn how to use something like that :(
 
Never insinuated the such. In fact, I'll root for your chances to get in, despite our differences. Don't trip home slice. You can hold on to your 2nd amendment as it exists now, and enjoy it while you do. 4 more years baby.
To RomanTaylor:
"You disgust me dude, good luck being a physician, or even getting in for that matter"
To me: (after basically saying I care more about guns than people)
"Good luck dude, you and your potential patients will need it, if you ever get that far"


You might want to look up what it means to "root" for someone.
 
Yesterday's unfortunate tragedy has definitely brought up a lot of discussion regarding gun control/laws. A lot of people don't usually think about physicians arming themselves with weapons, but the school shooting in Connecticut made me think back to an episode of "Untold Stories of the ER" that I saw a while back.

In this episode, a group of armed gang members rushed one of their members who was seriously wounded to the ER. They held the staff hostage and told them that they would kill them if they could not save their friend. The ER physician calmly pleaded with them telling them that they did everything they could to save him, and made them understand that nothing could be done... The gang members never ended up hurting any of the hospital staff.

Since some physicians, especially ED doctors in urban areas, come into contact with people from all forms of life, do you think that they should arm themselves in case of a situation like above or some other deranged individual trying to harm others with a weapon?

I'm of the opinion that physicians should not be armed. In the case you listed, I would recommend armed security as many hospitals already have. Here are my reasons for not allowing physicians to be armed:

1. Having an armed physician is very off-putting to some patients.
2. You are more likely to accidentally shoot yourself than save lives in the 0.0001% that someone with a gun does burst through your door trying to kill everyone.
3. Physicians aren't trained to use guns and prepare for such situations as police and security are
4. Being armed can make anyone (including physicians) more aggressive in conflicts. You are much more likely to escalate a situation if you know you have a gun to protect you than if you did not.
 
Also, a lot of laypeople don't seem to be the type of people I would expect to handle guns effectively. I.e. I would be shocked/not believe them if they told me they actually know how to shoot a firearm.
 
"Ohh, a crazy gunman is running towards us. Let's shoot him. Ohh crap, now he's bleeding, quick, we gotta save him," any doctor ever if physicians were allowed to carry a concealed weapon.
 
Guns create far too much risk for little gain in this case. Doctors are unlikely to use them effectively, and deranged/criminal patients are likely to wrest the weapon from a doctor. Furthermore, since you are in a densely occupied area, help is never far away be it from security guards, other personell, or even other patients and their families.

If you are really concerned about your safety, learn a martial art like jujitsu, wrestling, or grappling. Using them, one can easily incapacitate the dangerous person (especially in the tight quarters of a hospital) while causing little if any harm. Learning them doesn't endanger your hands (no punches) or, for that matter, any other part of your body. You don't even need to be particularly strong or skilled for this application, since it is unlikely that the threatening patient has any skill in martial arts of fine body and balance control.
 
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