Should physicians be armed?

[phikapdoctor]

Shoot him, remove the bullet and patch him up, shoot him, remove the bullet and patch him up, ext... I feel bad for the attacker.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling

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[45408]

4. Being armed can make anyone (including physicians) more aggressive in conflicts. You are much more likely to escalate a situation if you know you have a gun to protect you than if you did not.

What data do you have to support this claim?

 

[RomanTaylor]

What data do you have to support this claim?

Disagree. You are more likely to cower, run, or shoot yourself if you have a gun without weapon and combat training.

 

[ShenanigansMD]

Shoot him, remove the bullet and patch him up, shoot him, remove the bullet and patch him up, ext... I feel bad for the attacker.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling

And then charge him every time you remove a bullet.

 

[deleted480308]

Disagree. You are more likely to cower, run, or shoot yourself if you have a gun without weapon and combat training.

Concealed carriers and other gun owners stop criminals all the time

 

[RomanTaylor]

The majority of the time? Or in a handful of circumstances?

 

[deleted480308]

The majority of the time? Or in a handful of circumstances?

Enough that I hear news stories every week about it...I'm not trying to debate exact percentage, only refuting the implication that without combat training you will just roll into a ball and cry when danger presents itself

 

[Daneosaurus]

Enough that I hear news stories every week about it...I'm not trying to debate exact percentage, only refuting the implication that without combat training you will just roll into a ball and cry when danger presents itself

Again, I agree with Roman. The only times that EVER happens, it ends up on the news. I also speculate that your "every week" claim is hyperbole.

 

[deleted480308]

Again, I agree with Roman. The only times that EVER happens, it ends up on the news. I also speculate that your "every week" claim is hyperbole.

I'm on the nra email/mailing lists and actively pay attention to these stories on my own...Not really hyperbole

 

[Daneosaurus]

I'm on the nra email/mailing lists and actively pay attention to these stories on my own...Not really hyperbole

I stand corrected. As I said, it was speculation.

 

[Geebeejay]

Enough that I hear news stories every week about it...I'm not trying to debate exact percentage, only refuting the implication that without combat training you will just roll into a ball and cry when danger presents itself

I'm sure the media equally informs us of all of the times a gun owner tries to stop a crime with his gun, only to get the tables turned on him and 10 rounds pumped into his chest. Nothing like an over-dramatized feel-good story to make media-drones feel less helpless and nothing like some conveniently available propaganda for all of those entitled Americans who would carry AK-47s on their walk to 711 if the government let them.

 

[deleted480308]

I'm sure the media equally informs us of all of the times a gun owner tries to stop a crime with his gun, only to get the tables turned on him and 10 rounds pumped into his chest. Nothing like an over-dramatized feel-good story to make media-drones feel less helpless and nothing like some conveniently available propaganda for all of those entitled Americans who would carry AK-47s on their walk to 711 if the government let them.

Those entitlements that bother you so much are actually called rights

 

[H Y F R]

Those entitlements that bother you so much are actually called rights

Those same gentlemen who declared that bearing arms was a "G-d given right" were the same people who declared that some of us were less than complete human beings. Walking around with assault rifles with modified sights, 200 round drum magazines, etc etc, is not a right. It's absurd that potential physicians, and apparently some physicians in this thread, are so attached to killing machines. The sole purpose of a gun is to kill. I know, I'm gonna get the typical GOP/Fox News talking points that " I hunt and want to defend my family." Great. If you hunt, go use a crossbow, or even a hunting rifle. You don't need an AR-15 to hunt. If you want to defend your family, however, then push for gun control. The less guns floating around society, the less likely an assailant with a gun is going to try shooting you and your family with a gun. See how that works? If guns aren't around, then you won't be threatened with a gun by a criminal. Who would of thought.

 

[deleted480308]

Those same gentlemen who declared that bearing arms was a "G-d given right" were the same people who declared that some of us were less than complete human beings. Walking around with assault rifles with modified sights, 200 round drum magazines, etc etc, is not a right. It's absurd that potential physicians, and apparently some physicians in this thread, are so attached to killing machines. The sole purpose of a gun is to kill. I know, I'm gonna get the typical GOP/Fox News talking points that " I hunt and want to defend my family." Great. If you hunt, go use a crossbow, or even a hunting rifle. You don't need an AR-15 to hunt. If you want to defend your family, however, then push for gun control. The less guns floating around society, the less likely an assailant with a gun is going to try shooting you and your family with a gun. See how that works? If guns aren't around, then you won't be threatened with a gun by a criminal. Who would of thought.

Drum magazines are notoriously prone to glitching, that's why most people don't use them. http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/22/us/colorado-shooting-investigation/index.html

Also, I'll defend my family my way...you defend them yours. As soon as the police and military are ready to give up their guns because all the bad guys have been stopped....I'll give mine up too.

 

[H Y F R]

Drum magazines are notoriously prone to glitching, that's why most people don't use them. http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/22/us/colorado-shooting-investigation/index.html

Also, I'll defend my family my way...you defend them yours. As soon as the police and military are ready to give up their guns because all the bad guys have been stopped....I'll give mine up too.

hmmm. For someone who is espousing typical outdated GOP talking points, your desire to first see the police/military disarm before you do is completely in-congruent. I thought a bigger and more armed military at all costs would be part of your ethos? Being that you care about protecting your family and 'merica and all.

 

[deleted480308]

hmmm. For someone who is espousing typical outdated GOP talking points, your desire to first see the police/military disarm before you do is completely in-congruent. I thought a bigger and more armed military at all costs would be part of your ethos? Being that you care about protecting your family and 'merica and all.

I'm more of a Ron Paul libertarian. We send our troops into a bunch of places that we could simply leave alone. I prefer a foreign policy called non-intervention. It also works well on a personal level, I don't mess with your choices, you don't mess with mine.

 

[Geebeejay]

Those entitlements that bother you so much are actually called rights

Lol, uh oh....I've worked in health care/public sector for long enough to know better than to bark up this tree

 

[KnuxNole]

Enough that I hear news stories every week about it...I'm not trying to debate exact percentage, only refuting the implication that without combat training you will just roll into a ball and cry when danger presents itself

I would NOT feel safe with a concealed carrier of a gun protecting me if they didn't have intense training. If they do, I would be surprised that their little butt actually knows how to do something

 

[deleted480308]

Lol, uh oh....I've worked in health care/public sector for long enough to know better than to bark up this tree

haha, the difference between the right to be able to purchase and own something at a rate set by the seller is just a little different than the right to demand products and services without offering payment but you are right, maybe we shouldn't bark up that tree

 

[Geebeejay]

haha, the difference between the right to be able to purchase and own something at a rate set by the seller is just a little different than the right to demand products and services without offering payment but you are right, maybe we shouldn't bark up that tree

Haha at least we agree on that much, man.

I actually am in agreement with most of what you're saying, just hesitant on the extremism of your perspective. Either way, to each his own

 

[45408]

Those same gentlemen who declared that bearing arms was a "G-d given right" were the same people who declared that some of us were less than complete human beings.

No, the gentlemen who declared that bearing arms is a right are the same ones who wrote our Constitution, which is what our country was founded on. If you don't like it, by all means, amend the Constitution. It's been done before, but as our Bill of Rights was written and as the Supreme Court interprets it, the individual has a right to bear arms, and that right shall not be infringed.

 

[H Y F R]

No, the gentlemen who declared that bearing arms is a right are the same ones who wrote our Constitution, which is what our country was founded on. If you don't like it, by all means, amend the Constitution. It's been done before, but as our Bill of Rights was written and as the Supreme Court interprets it, the individual has a right to bear arms, and that right shall not be infringed.

Ummm, doc, your gentlemen stipulated that black people were only 2/3 as human as the founding fathers were. I highly doubt that men of such moral regard should be in a position to dictate what is a "right," especially so many years after the fact.

 

[Shenanigan]

Those same gentlemen who declared that bearing arms was a "G-d given right" were the same people who declared that some of us were less than complete human beings. Walking around with assault rifles with modified sights, 200 round drum magazines, etc etc, is not a right. It's absurd that potential physicians, and apparently some physicians in this thread, are so attached to killing machines. The sole purpose of a gun is to kill. I know, I'm gonna get the typical GOP/Fox News talking points that " I hunt and want to defend my family." Great. If you hunt, go use a crossbow, or even a hunting rifle. You don't need an AR-15 to hunt. If you want to defend your family, however, then push for gun control. The less guns floating around society, the less likely an assailant with a gun is going to try shooting you and your family with a gun. See how that works? If guns aren't around, then you won't be threatened with a gun by a criminal. Who would of thought.

How would you go about taking the 300 million+ guns from Americans? That's what you'd have to do to actually reduce gun crime (I sure hope you'd start with the criminals). The fact is that guns are already everywhere and nothing short of a door to door raid of every building in the country and search of every person to confiscate firearms will stop gun crime and that will never happen. Do you think criminals are going to say "Oh shoot, guns are illegal now. I guess I should turn mine in!" No. They'll say, "Oh awesome, now I can mug, burglarize, and kill as I please because no law-abiding citizen will be able to stop me."

The only thing to ever come out of faux news I have ever (edit) somewhat agreed with.

[youtube]fYL0yN110go[/youtube]

 

[Geebeejay]

How would you go about taking the 300 million+ guns from Americans? That's what you'd have to do to actually reduce gun crime (I sure hope you'd start with the criminals). The fact is that guns are already everywhere and nothing short of a door to door raid of every building in the country and search of every person to confiscate firearms will stop gun crime and that will never happen. Do you think criminals are going to say "Oh shoot, guns are illegal now. I guess I should turn mine in!" No. They'll say, "Oh awesome, now I can mug, burglarize, and kill as I please because no law-abiding citizen will be able to stop me."

The only thing to ever come out of faux news I have ever (edit) somewhat agreed with.

[youtube]fYL0yN110go[/youtube]

This is exactly the problem with an entirely anti-second amendment mindset. If a criminal can march into my house and threaten my family with an illegally acquired gun, the second amendment protects my ability to defend myself and my family with one that I have legally acquired. If I choose not to exercise this right to bear arms, it is no one's fault but my own if I am defenseless should my house be burglarized or my family attacked. Furthermore, it is my own responsibility (and not the tax-payer's) to ensure that I am adequately trained and prepared for use of this legally acquired firearm should a burglary occur.

I truly believe that "gun-control" needs to establish a middle ground between the ability to defend one's property when attacked, and walking around main street with an M-15, or carrying a loaded weapon when rounding on your patients, which, at this point, I believe encourages violence more than discouraging it. I also live in a state with strict gun-laws, so I really haven't been exposed to very many people walking around with holstered weapons, so I guess I'm biased in this respect based on my lack of experience.

 

[H Y F R]

Look at the UK. Check out their stats since restricting firearms. And please, do better than the FOX news talking point that numbers dropped before gun restrictions. At least try.

 

[Geebeejay]

Look at the UK. Check out their stats since restricting firearms. And please, do better than the FOX news talking point that numbers dropped before gun restrictions. At least try.

Unsure which point you're trying to make....are you citing that the UK has a very low incidence of fire-arm related homicide? Or are you citing that this very low rate of fire-arm related homicide has actually more than doubled in the last 10 years?

 

[H Y F R]

Unsure which point you're trying to make....are you citing that the UK has a very low incidence of fire-arm related homicide? Or are you citing that this very low rate of fire-arm related homicide has actually more than doubled in the last 10 years?

That's cute bro. I think you know the point I was trying to make.

 

[Geebeejay]

Double post my bad

 

[Shenanigan]

Look at the UK. Check out their stats since restricting firearms. And please, do better than the FOX news talking point that numbers dropped before gun restrictions. At least try.

0/10 for ineffective rebuttal.

I had no fox news talking points, just a skit that happened to air on fox news to demonstrate a point. I posed a legitimate question that you failed to answer. What can the US do about the millions of guns already on the street?

I support the idea of new gun laws, but I won't actually support laws keeping law abiding citizens from acquiring reasonable firearms that can be used to defend themselves unless there is a real way of taking guns off the street.


Geebeejay I agree. If you get a firearm you should learn how to use it properly and learn the laws and situations surrounding appropriate use.

 

[H Y F R]

0/10 for ineffective rebuttal.

This isn't a talk show, so save your scoring for your COD campaign or your Halo binge.

Guns kill. That's really all that matters. But please, cling on to your guns. It's obvious self-respect isn't that important, so by all means, hold on to yer rifles y'all.

 

[Geebeejay]

That's cute bro. I think you know the point I was trying to make.

It was actually an honest question, and I stand by it. I can backcheck your posts and see what your opinion is (edit: seems like you are anti-firearm?), but I don't want to simply guess what your position is. Both of these statistics are a factual spin of real data, so I honestly do not know which one you are referencing. No need to get defensive...

I guess I'll mention before you post what your opinion is - I only ever take these statistics with a grain of salt because A. They can be easily spun in many directions, and B. Many factors besides just firearm access restriction determine the homicide rate. I.E. the UK has very different policies regarding mental health and institutionalization (the last few highly publicized mass murderers in the US [Connecticut, Batman] had previously document psych histories) than the US does, and they are also less affected by the violence surrounding the drug trade than we are (just to name a few).

 

[Geebeejay]

This isn't a talk show, so save your scoring for your COD campaign or your Halo binge.

Guns kill. That's really all that matters. But please, cling on to your guns. It's obvious self-respect isn't that important, so by all means, hold on to yer rifles y'all.

This was highly unnecessary.

 

[H Y F R]

It was actually an honest question, and I stand by it. I can backcheck your posts and see what your opinion is, but I don't want to simply guess what your position is. Both are a true spin of factual data, so I honestly do not know which one you are referencing. No need to get defensive...

I guess I'll mention before you post what your opinion is - I only ever take these statistics with a grain of salt because A. They can be easily spun in many directions, and B. Many factors besides just firearm access restriction determine the homicide rate. I.E. the UK has very different policies regarding mental health and institutionalization (the last few highly publicized mass murderers in the US [Conneticut, Batman] were previously document psych histories) than the US does, and they are also less affected by the violence surrounding the drug trade than we are (just to name a few).

Of all the things spewed on this thread, I must say you made some valid point here. But let me counter with this- as an aspiring physician, you will be presented with data, tests, charts, etc... You will have to make sense of them in the most reasonable way. As colleagues, we may differ from time to time, but our training as physicians will dictate that we SHOULD agree on most objective diagnoses, and such. Accordingly, I am blown away that data that clearly shows the effectiveness of gun control can be spun into Right-leaning arguments the way they are. Guns kill. Gun control will help innocent lives. It isn't harder than what you are making it.

 

[Geebeejay]

Of all the things spewed on this thread, I must say you made some valid point here. But let me counter with this- as an aspiring physician, you will be presented with data, tests, charts, etc... You will have to make sense of them in the most reasonable way. As colleagues, we may differ from time to time, but our training as physicians will dictate that we SHOULD agree on most objective diagnoses, and such. Accordingly, I am blown away that data that clearly shows the effectiveness of gun control can be spun into Right-leaning arguments the way they are. Guns kill. Gun control will help innocent lives. It isn't harder than what you are making it.

This is why being a doctor can oftentimes be so complicated and why you and I are both looking forward to it I would imagine.

I'll counter your point by saying that gun control will help some lives of innocent people, but people who acquire them illegally will still do so....especially considering our proximity to a certain country that is currently enduring a very active, very violent drug war where illegal weapons are surely VERY available to criminals.

If we all gave up our guns (in some way....I have no idea how), then yes - I bet there will be less firearm related homicides....but there will also be way more people exposed to random acts of violence than before, and completely and utterly defenseless, and that is way more scary to me.

 

[H Y F R]

This is why being a doctor can oftentimes be so complicated and why you and I are both looking forward to it I would imagine.

I'll counter your point by saying that gun control will help some lives of innocent people, but people who acquire them illegally will still do so....especially considering our proximity to a certain country that is currently enduring a very active, very violent drug war where illegal weapons are surely VERY available to criminals.

If we all gave up our guns (in some way....I have no idea how), then yes - I bet there will be less firearm related homicides....but there will also be way more people exposed to random acts of violence than before, and completely and utterly defenseless, and that is way more scary to me.

Although I don't agree with everything, I must say I agree with a fair amount of what you have presented. Well said. Thanks for presenting the other side of a sensitive argument. Good luck in your future endeavors.

 

[Shenanigan]

This isn't a talk show, so save your scoring for your COD campaign or your Halo binge.

Guns kill. That's really all that matters. But please, cling on to your guns. It's obvious self-respect isn't that important, so by all means, hold on to yer rifles y'all.

It's a shame you have to resort to petty insults and sarcastic remarks when you're actually challenged, instead of intelligently defending your position. I guess I shouldn't have expected anything other than your post history filled with one-liners. I hope in medicine you'll be more open to other people's opinions and having real discussions instead of dismissing them. You'll close a lot of doors with that attitude.


In your words, peace my dude!

 

[Geebeejay]

Although I don't agree with everything, I must say I agree with a fair amount of what you have presented. Well said. Thanks for presenting the other side of a sensitive argument. Good luck in your future endeavors.

You too....Glad we were able to create some sort of civil discussion on this nearly god-forsaken thread

 

[RomanTaylor]

You too....Glad we were able to create some sort of civil discussion on this nearly god-forsaken thread

Yea, thank goodness, I was worried there for a second

 

[45408]

Ummm, doc, your gentlemen stipulated that black people were only 2/3 as human as the founding fathers were. I highly doubt that men of such moral regard should be in a position to dictate what is a "right," especially so many years after the fact.

I knew someone would try pulling out that argument. I'm not here to debate the moral fiber of the "founding fathers," because it's irrelevant to this discussion. Our Constitution, as currently written, does not regard any races to be more or less human, and it does consider bearing arms to be a right not to be infringed. Period. If you don't like it, you can try to amend it, but don't be devious and try to skirt the law of the land.

 

[45408]

Look at the UK. Check out their stats since restricting firearms. And please, do better than the FOX news talking point that numbers dropped before gun restrictions. At least try.

The UK has had a lower murder rate for the US for 200 years. It's not the gun control.

They're also about 5 times more likely to have someone break into their home while they're at home than in the US, because burglars know that if they break into a US home, they're gonna get shot.

 

[H Y F R]

1) I knew someone would try pulling out that argument. 2) I'm not here to debate the moral fiber of the "founding fathers," because it's irrelevant to this discussion. Our Constitution, as currently written, does not regard any races to be more or less human, and it does consider bearing arms to be a right not to be infringed. Period. 3) If you don't like it, you can try to amend it, but don't be devious and try to skirt the law of the land.

1) you knew it, because it is a valid argument, even if you disagree doctor

2) Of course you won't argue their moral fiber- they had none, and arguing for it would not further your point. thus, you abstain

3) Devious? hardly. My position is clear on this issue. I respect your positions doctor. But I don't respect your "I'm a holier than thou American so go amend the constitution" attitude. The constitution is not a perfect document. it was written by slave owners. SLAVE OWNERS. let that sink in for ya doc. they hardly possess the cache with me to convince me that guns are necessary. neither do you doc.

 

[45408]

1) you knew it, because it is a valid argument, even if you disagree doctor

2) Of course you won't argue their moral fiber- they had none, and arguing for it would not further your point. thus, you abstain

I knew it, because it's a worn-out trick.

3) Devious? hardly. My position is clear on this issue. I respect your positions doctor. But I don't respect your "I'm a holier than thou American so go amend the constitution" attitude. The constitution is not a perfect document. it was written by slave owners. SLAVE OWNERS. let that sink in for ya doc. they hardly possess the cache with me to convince me that guns are necessary. neither do you doc.

Don't be condescending with your "doc" comments. It really comes off like you think you're superior. I don't care who wrote the Constitution, because it doesn't matter now. It's the law, and we're all bound by it. Period.

 

[H Y F R]

Sounds like someone has maintained a position that you have no rebuttal for, short of "That's the law now, period."

Well done.

 

[MedicFL]

While I do not agree with Slavery it was a common and accepted practice at the time that these men lived. They were no worse or any better than anyone else in the world at that time. And before I open a huge can or worms, there were slaves of all races, creeds, and national origins. My short point to try and invalidate the US Constitution because the authors were slave owners is a little much. How about women? They were left out too and didnt get an equal vote until much later? But back to gun control....

 

[Geebeejay]

While I do not agree with Slavery it was a common and accepted practice at the time that these men lived. They were no worse or any better than anyone else in the world at that time. And before I open a huge can or worms, there were slaves of all races, creeds, and national origins. My short point to try and invalidate the US Constitution because the authors were slave owners is a little much. How about women? They were left out too and didnt get an equal vote until much later? But back to gun control....

Oh my....why.....eugh...why did you?....err ma gewd, the worms! They're everywhere! So many worms! God help us all! Is this how the world ends?

 

[plauto]

I know I am reviving a somewhat old thread,but I thought it would be fun....

I routinely carry to and from work, often also at work. I have an ankle holster and a small semi and you'd never know I am carrying, even in scrubs. I carry for my personal protection.
It is reserved strictly for the protection of myself or my loved ones. Nothing else.
Walking away and de-escalating is always the 1st rule. Don't even know whether my hospital allows it or not as state law here rules and says I can carry anywhere I want except for federal buildings, airports, and a few secure areas like courts and sections of prisons.

I would never open carry or carry concealed in an easy to access location while at work. You might upset some patients and the crazies might reach for it.

As mentioned above, the best thing is to have security take care of it. However, you know the saying, "the cops are only 3 minutes away when you need them," and I do not feel like entrusting 100% of my protection to someone else. Therefore I believe that we should have the freedom to carry-concealed while at work.

 

[rangerdad]

I will conceal carry at school, hospital, work, vehicle, and everywhere with or without permission. Criminal and crazy people are killing innocent victims more and more everyday. It is my right and responsibility to safeguard my family and myself. My wife and I are trained and proficient with weapons (both of us are combat vets) and when the time is right we will train our daughter. I don't understand why people refuse to exercise their 2nd Amendment and then complain when a crazy person burst in to a campus/office and murders 20. Imagine if all the students/employees carried personal weapons and where trained to used them. That criminal would be stop in seconds, maybe after only killing 1 person or hopefully none.

 

[pre med 2014]

"Let me just get my pager excuse me... Oh wait **** that's my glock!"

They could even add it to the clinical training "when examining the patient make sure not to bend over in such a way to expose your glock as it could startle the patient"

 

[NontradCA]

I will conceal carry at school, hospital, work, vehicle, and everywhere with or without permission. Criminal and crazy people are killing innocent victims more and more everyday. It is my right and responsibility to safeguard my family and myself. My wife and I are trained and proficient with weapons (both of us are combat vets) and when the time is right we will train our daughter. I don't understand why people refuse to exercise their 2nd Amendment and then complain when a crazy person burst in to a campus/office and murders 20. Imagine if all the students/employees carried personal weapons and where trained to used them. That criminal would be stop in seconds, maybe after only killing 1 person or hopefully none.

Good luck fitting your burner in your scrub outfit.

 

[deleted407021]

My hands are registered under conceal carry laws...