Should physicians be armed?

[Gene Parmesan]

I strongly believe doctors should be two armed, especially in the ER. This may be controversial, but I don't think a person with no arms can effectively treat patients with traumatic injuries.

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[gettheleadout]

I don't understand why people refuse to exercise their 2nd Amendment and then complain when a crazy person burst in to a campus/office and murders 20.

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[SouthernSurgeon]

I will conceal carry at school, hospital, work, vehicle, and everywhere with or without permission. Criminal and crazy people are killing innocent victims more and more everyday. It is my right and responsibility to safeguard my family and myself. My wife and I are trained and proficient with weapons (both of us are combat vets) and when the time is right we will train our daughter. I don't understand why people refuse to exercise their 2nd Amendment and then complain when a crazy person burst in to a campus/office and murders 20. Imagine if all the students/employees carried personal weapons and where trained to used them. That criminal would be stop in seconds, maybe after only killing 1 person or hopefully none.

Cool story brah.

Enjoy getting fired, expelled, and/or having your license revoked (medical that is...well, and probably concealed carry too) for bringing a gun into the hospital and/or med school.

 

[basketcase0a0]

I strongly believe doctors should be two armed, especially in the ER. This may be controversial, but I don't think a person with no arms can effectively treat patients with traumatic injuries.

But what if a doctor has bear arms? Not having thumbs will make gripping instruments pretty hard. Though you'd be a pro at amputation with those claws

 

[darkjedi]

Well this just happened today...

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20140725_Reports__Three_shot_at_Darby_hospital.html

A hospital caseworker is dead and a psychiatrist injured after a gunman opened fire inside Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital in Delaware County on Thursday afternoon, police said.

Officials believe the gunman opened fire in a small office, then the doctor then drew his own weapon and shot the assailant, hitting him three times and critically injuring him, said Delaware County District Attorney Jack Whelan.

 

[Lamel]

Well this just happened today...

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20140725_Reports__Three_shot_at_Darby_hospital.html

Can be interpreted in two ways.

1: Doctor saves day with personal firearm. One dead, two injured.
2: Psychiatric patient ruins the day with personal firearm. One dead, two injured.

 

[gettheleadout]

Can be interpreted in two ways.

1: Doctor saves day with personal firearm. One dead, two injured.
2: Psychiatric patient ruins the day with personal firearm. One dead, two injured.

Sadly I notice the conclusion is the same in each case.


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[deleted480308]

Cool story brah.

Enjoy getting fired, expelled, and/or having your license revoked (medical that is...well, and probably concealed carry too) for bringing a gun into the hospital and/or med school.

while I agree with the majority of your post here (I carry everywhere it isn't a crime) in many states, it's not a crime to carry in a hospital. It's just that hospital is a private business that has the right to tell you not to carry and you can be told to leave or get fired if you get caught.

I'm curious after the PA incident if the doc will be punished or if the gun rule there will be relaxed.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

while I agree with the majority of your post here (I carry everywhere it isn't a crime) in many states, it's not a crime to carry in a hospital. It's just that hospital is a private business that has the right to tell you not to carry and you can be told to leave or get fired if you get caught.

I'm curious after the PA incident if the doc will be punished or if the gun rule there will be relaxed.

I didn't say it was a crime

 

[deleted480308]

I didn't say it was a crime

i'm sorry for the assumption. if you didn't think it was a crime, why would a medical license or carry permit be at risk? were those penalties mentioned solely for the school (which is definitely a crime in most states)

 

[Mad Jack]

I will conceal carry at school, hospital, work, vehicle, and everywhere with or without permission. Criminal and crazy people are killing innocent victims more and more everyday. It is my right and responsibility to safeguard my family and myself. My wife and I are trained and proficient with weapons (both of us are combat vets) and when the time is right we will train our daughter. I don't understand why people refuse to exercise their 2nd Amendment and then complain when a crazy person burst in to a campus/office and murders 20. Imagine if all the students/employees carried personal weapons and where trained to used them. That criminal would be stop in seconds, maybe after only killing 1 person or hopefully none.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...es-in-the-us-drop-approach-historic-lows?lite
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/youthviolence/stats_at-a_glance/vca_temp-trends.html
http://johnjayresearch.org/rec/files/2013/10/databit201304.pdf

Yeah, violent crime is totally out of control.

 

[jvquarterback]

So a few years ago one of my partners got mugged on his way to his car from our clinic. He got a CCW but then one of the other docs got mugged so all of us got CCWs. A month later someone tried to mug the first doc. He pulled and we haven't had another incident in five years.

 

[Mad Jack]

Inexperienced physicians with guns in the ED would be a disaster. Patients that are mentally unstable, under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or in police custody being within arm's reach of a weapon wielded by a person without extensive training is absolutely foolish and provides a greater risk than benefit. My hospital hired only sworn officers that were properly trained in the use of firearms as security, and equipped them with pistols, tasers, handcuffs, OC spray, and the like. Everything they needed to deal with an errant gangbanger or two, irate family member, or what have you. They were also employed in pretty substantial numbers, so we had several armed guards present in any pavilion of the hospital at any given moment, minimizing response time.

 

[deleted480308]

Inexperienced physicians with guns in the ED would be a disaster. Patients that are mentally unstable, under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or in police custody being within arm's reach of a weapon wielded by a person without extensive training is absolutely foolish and provides a greater risk than benefit. My hospital hired only sworn officers that were properly trained in the use of firearms as security, and equipped them with pistols, tasers, handcuffs, OC spray, and the like. Everything they needed to deal with an errant gangbanger or two, irate family member, or what have you. They were also employed in pretty substantial numbers, so we had several armed guards present in any pavilion of the hospital at any given moment, minimizing response time.

the point of.concealed carry is that no one knows there is a gun within reach.

 

[Mad Jack]

the point of.concealed carry is that no one knows there is a gun within reach.

It's pretty hard to hide a gun under scrubs in a way that is both comfortable and easy to access.

A place with white coats it might be easier I guess.

 

[mysdnhandle]

This thread, brought to you by the NRA.

 

[deleted407021]

http://www.people.com/article/armed-doctor-gun-philadelphia-hospital-shooting

 

[allantois]

Doctors shouldn't carry guns on themselves but hospitals should have adequate security (although the hospital where I volunteer doesn't have armed security as it's an extremely safe area with no gangs around). Doctors in private practices should be able to have a gun in their office (preferably secured in a safe).

Here's a story about a perpetrator psychiatrist:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

 

[deleted480308]

Doctors shouldn't carry guns on themselves but hospitals should have adequate security (although the hospital where I volunteer doesn't have armed security as it's an extremely safe area with no gangs around). Doctors in private practices should be able to have a gun in their office (preferably secured in a safe).

Here's a story about a perpetrator psychiatrist:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

secured in a safe adds some very dangerous time to how long you have to respond and then you have to be in the right room.

i'm unsure what the point of your fort hood reference is...because a doc went violent, docs shouldn't be trusted? the reason he got so many people is all the law abiders were unarmed.

 

[knv2u]

Inexperienced physicians with guns in the ED would be a disaster. Patients that are mentally unstable, under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or in police custody being within arm's reach of a weapon wielded by a person without extensive training is absolutely foolish and provides a greater risk than benefit. My hospital hired only sworn officers that were properly trained in the use of firearms as security, and equipped them with pistols, tasers, handcuffs, OC spray, and the like. Everything they needed to deal with an errant gangbanger or two, irate family member, or what have you. They were also employed in pretty substantial numbers, so we had several armed guards present in any pavilion of the hospital at any given moment, minimizing response time.

Moreover, with all of the fast paced work and in making the rounds, I could easily see someone pulling off the physician's side arm. I think armed security guards would be preferable to actually having physicians carry side arms.

 

[deleted480308]

Moreover, with all of the fast paced work and in making the rounds, I could easily see someone pulling off the physician's side arm. I think armed security guards would be preferable to actually having physicians carry side arms.

I'm going to repeat that this is an imaginary scenario. You wouldn't know there was a gun to grab if they were carrying concealed. And if they were open carrying, most people would use some sort of retention holster. I don't know if you have ever tried to wrestle a gun out of someone's retention holster (I have in training) but it's near friggin' impossible.

 

[knv2u]

I'm going to repeat that this is an imaginary scenario. You wouldn't know there was a gun to grab if they were carrying concealed. And if they were open carrying, most people would use some sort of retention holster. I don't know if you have ever tried to wrestle a gun out of someone's retention holster (I have in training) but it's near friggin' impossible.

My original concern or reservation is that the weapon might not be effectively concealed, but in fairness, that depends on the type and size of weapon. I am not opposed to physicians having firearms personally so as long as caution is used, and that's why I suggested the security guards. The physicians could focus more on their rounds and not worrying about a patient discovering or reaching for their side arm. This is imperative in an environment where there are potential psychiatric patients. That's all I was saying. And my comments also weren't meant to address the issue of physicians walking to their vehicles.

Edit: You might be well versed in holsters, but I would venture to say that many physicians are not.

 

[deleted480308]

My original concern or reservation is that the weapon might not effectively concealed, but in fairness, that depends on the type and size of weapon. I am not opposed to physicians having firearms personally so as long as caution is used, and that's why I suggested the security guards. The physicians could focus more on their rounds and not worrying about a patient discovering or reaching for their side arm. This is imperative in an environment where there are potential psychiatric patients. That's all I was saying. And my comments also weren't meant to address the issue of physicians walking to their vehicles.

I think it's a pretty common concern that you have and to be completely honest, I had that concern myself prior to starting to carry. I know this will be very anecdotal as it's just my personal experience, but after carrying for awhile (in a good holster, trust me there are some that are horrible) you really don't think about it in the sense that you are distracted. I did active work and was constantly in tight spaces with lots of people in my personal life and it never came up as an issue.

For the record I agree with having armed guards around for a visual deterrent and to handle the rowdies when they appear. I'm not trying to wrestle a guy who wants to yell and cause a scene. I'm not drawing on him and I'm not touching him. I don't want to get involved if it isn't required for someone's safety. I was actually attacked by a dog on a run the other and didn't draw because it was a small dog, the owner got ticked that I kicked at it (of course he appears after I finally defend myself a bit) and swung at me....still didn't draw because I never was convinced that he intended to keep swinging. I know if someone isn't familiar with carrying, it can seem like authorizing wild west saloon shootouts but in reality it is far more boring than that...

 

[NTheo91]

.

 

[theseeker4]

I have been in ER's in Philadelphia in which you had to walk through metal detectors. Maybe more of those? Or security with a wand to scan each visitor.

Call me liberal, but I don't think the answer to the gun issue is more guns.

That is great for being in the ED, but how about going to and from the hospital? Who is protecting people there? I would bet money a lot more people are mugged/attacked outside the hospital than inside (excluding the psychotic/high/randomly violent patient who wouldn't be in the hospital if the cops/EMS hadn't brought him/her in). Metal detectors and guards don't do much to protect you out there...

 

[LMBLBM]

Oh great.... Do we need to add a military training section on our MCAT?

 

[NTheo91]

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[slopes23]

I have been in ER's in Philadelphia in which you had to walk through metal detectors. Maybe more of those? Or security with a wand to scan each visitor.

Call me liberal, but I don't think the answer to the gun issue is more guns.

Liberal

 

[slopes23]

It's pretty hard to hide a gun under scrubs in a way that is both comfortable and easy to access.

A place with white coats it might be easier I guess.

There are a lot of pretty small CCW's out there. You would be surprised.

 

[theseeker4]

That's a great point. It really does depend on the location of the hospital. If you work in Baltimore/Philadelphia/Newark (NJ) or other not so safe cities, more outside security is probably for the best. Maybe security patrols in the parking lot or a fenced in staff parking lot would do the trick. That of course would cost more money which I don't think hospitals would be willing to spend. At my local hospital here in NJ, security does regular patrols in the parking lot. They aren't armed and probably won't be able to help much in the event of an attack, but its the presence that deters dangerous attackers.

If any staff member doesn't feel safe, I'm sure security is obligated to escort that staff member to their car. I feel like security issues is about using current resources more wisely rather than beefing up security by hiring more personnel.

Anytime you go outside you risk someone attacking you. If someone with a concealed gun is waiting for you across the street from the hospital, there is little anyone can do to stop them. Its a good reason to treat everyone around you with kindness and respect (not that it will save you from the crazies).


edit: I assumed you meant outside the hospital = outside the physical building but still on hospital property. The only way to get protection from home to the hospital would be to live in a full blown police state, which is an entirely other argument.

A full-blown police state is not necessary to provide people the means to defend themselves.....allowing them to carry their own means of protection is perfectly reasonable.

 

[NTheo91]

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[allantois]

Are doctors actually more likely to be assaulted than an average person? Why? If it is because of offended patients, then be nice to all of your patients. Is it because you are driving a convertible Ferrari? Then drive a simpler car to and from work. Leave the hospital with other people as shifts usually end at the same time for many hospital employees. Carry a pepper spray for self defense, put 911 on speed dial. Why do you need a gun?

 

[theseeker4]

I feel allowing everyone to carry a gun with them is a policy nightmare. Can everyone carry a gun or just those trained? Who provides the training? Are schools, churches, court houses, jails, etc gun free zones? Where do the guns go when you enter a gun free zone? Do you really think your gun will save you if someone is waiting in the bushes already pointing a gun at you?

I do see your point. When both sensible people have a gun, it acts as a deterrent to violence. I think its the insensible people, who are in the minority, that we have to worry about. Frankly, those people won't care if you have a gun on you or not. I just don't see how guns for all can actually solve the issue and can be implemented realistically.

It is pretty easy to Google the requirements for each state regarding who can carry what, when, and where. It most certainly is NOT a policy nightmare, nor does it lead to an increase in violence. There will always be the rare individual who does commit a crime with a legal gun, but the number of those situations is so small compared to the number of times someone uses a gun to defend themselves, I don't see it as a reason to stop everyone from carrying.

Of course a gun is no magic shield that makes you bullet proof, but there are many cases, above is posted one recent example, where a law-abiding individual carrying a gun saved lives. Obviously if someone walks up behind you and shoots you in the back, the fact that you are carrying a gun will do little to protect you, but how about being mugged but seeing the individual coming with a weapon toward you? Or witnessing someone opening fire on other people? Or a road rage incident where someone goes nuts over thinking you cut him off? The examples of where being able to defend yourself are many, so the fact that carrying a gun wouldn't help you in every possible situation is a poor argument against being able to carry.

Every school shooting is an example of a disarmed group of people being unable to defend themselves when someone who is nuts decides not to follow the "gun ban" in place. Unless there is some magic solution to make people stop robbing, raping, and murdering others, my vote is to allow non-criminals the means to defend themselves.

 

[sundancing]

It is pretty easy to Google the requirements for each state regarding who can carry what, when, and where. It most certainly is NOT a policy nightmare, nor does it lead to an increase in violence. There will always be the rare individual who does commit a crime with a legal gun, but the number of those situations is so small compared to the number of times someone uses a gun to defend themselves, I don't see it as a reason to stop everyone from carrying.

Of course a gun is no magic shield that makes you bullet proof, but there are many cases, above is posted one recent example, where a law-abiding individual carrying a gun saved lives. Obviously if someone walks up behind you and shoots you in the back, the fact that you are carrying a gun will do little to protect you, but how about being mugged but seeing the individual coming with a weapon toward you? Or witnessing someone opening fire on other people? Or a road rage incident where someone goes nuts over thinking you cut him off? The examples of where being able to defend yourself are many, so the fact that carrying a gun wouldn't help you in every possible situation is a poor argument against being able to carry.

Every school shooting is an example of a disarmed group of people being unable to defend themselves when someone who is nuts decides not to follow the "gun ban" in place. Unless there is some magic solution to make people stop robbing, raping, and murdering others, my vote is to allow non-criminals the means to defend themselves.

The thing is, as of right now non-criminals already have the right to defend themselves in the U.S. - at least more so than in other developed nations. And yet the United States is fourth in the world for firearm-related deaths - it is only surpassed by South Africa, Colombia, and Thailand. Other first world nations that have much stricter gun regulations are much further down the list. So clearly lax gun regulations aren't the answer to reducing violent crime...I don't see how arming civilians even more than they already are would help reduce gun deaths.

Edit: A study showing the correlation between number of guns per capita versus number of gun deaths per capita: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/09/19/u-s-has-more-guns-and-gun-deaths-than-any-other-country-study-finds/

 

[deleted480308]

Are doctors actually more likely to be assaulted than an average person? Why? If it is because of offended patients, then be nice to all of your patients. Is it because you are driving a convertible Ferrari? Then drive a simpler car to and from work. Leave the hospital with other people as shifts usually end at the same time for many hospital employees. Carry a pepper spray for self defense, put 911 on speed dial. Why do you need a gun?

If I'm in a situation where I need to use pepper spray, I'm in a situation where a gun would be very useful. Avg 911 response time in my home town is almost 10minutes...the attackers don't wait for the police, the victims shouldn't have to either

The thing is, as of right now non-criminals already have the right to defend themselves in the U.S. - at least more so than in other developed nations. And yet the United States is fourth in the world for firearm-related deaths - it is only surpassed by South Africa, Colombia, and Thailand. Other first world nations that have much stricter gun regulations are much further down the list. So clearly lax gun regulations aren't the answer to reducing violent crime...I don't see how arming civilians even more than they already are would help reduce gun deaths.

most of the stats that aimed to show guns don't protect lives only mention gun deaths compared to places where guns are outlawed. There are 2 reasons this is not relevant. First, those studies add shootings by officers and suicides in the stats. Second, the problem isn't just gun deaths...but violent crime in general. In areas with more freedom for citizens to carry, violent crime overall is lower.

 

[NTheo91]

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[allantois]

If I'm in a situation where I need to use pepper spray, I'm in a situation where a gun would be very useful. Avg 911 response time in my home town is almost 10minutes...the attackers don't wait for the police, the victims shouldn't have to either

This issue no longer applies to just physicians. I don't believe in federal ban on the use of guns; I think the issue of establishing who can carry what should be left up to the states as there are certainly areas in the country that are more dangerous than others. The US has way too many guns to de-arm everyone who owns them and even then people just won't give up their guns.

But as for physicians on duty, I don't think that ER doctors should have guns. It is the responsibility of a hospital to create a secure environment for its employees which may involve hiring trained guards. Even police make mistakes when they open fire on wrong individuals, doctors under the stress of ER should not have to worry about defending themselves.

 

[deleted480308]

This issue no longer applies to just physicians. I don't believe in federal ban on the use of guns; I think the issue of establishing who can carry what should be left up to the states as there are certainly areas in the country that are more dangerous than others. The US has way too many guns to de-arm everyone who owns them and even then people just won't give up their guns.

But as for physicians on duty, I don't think that ER doctors should have guns. It is the responsibility of a hospital to create a secure environment for its employees which may involve hiring trained guards. Even police make mistakes when they open fire on wrong individuals, doctors under the stress of ER should not have to worry about defending themselves.

I agree that it's the hospitals call as they own the property. But, I'd suggest that even if there is an officer at every door we are all responsible for our own defense. The supreme court has even stated that police don't have a responsibility to protect us...they certainly didn't protect that case worker or that psych doc

 

[rangerdad]

The idea of an area or place being EXTREMELY SAFE is naive! Elementary schools are or should be the safest place for our kids and you seen what has happened in recent years.

You guys do what you want!!!! At the end of the day I have car insurance, home insurance, life insurance, alarm system and above all a CONCEALED WEAPON!!!!

I hope I don't need any of them, but when time comes I'll be ready. If I die or I get kill at least I did something about it rather than just be a HELPLESS VICTIM!

I survived two wars in six deployments, I'll be damn if some PSYCHO in my country tries to take advantage of me without me having a fighting chance! BOOM

 

[NontradCA]

There's always this false argument about how carrying a gun makes you safer. This naively assumes that the carrier would be able to put down someone. The casualty rate in a firefight for trained US marine, non-ambush is 50% the first combat incident. Think about that for a second.

Also keep in mind that when you pull a gun on someone you escalate a situation that could potentially be non lethal to one that is.

That being said, I am considering piecing up just to protect myself from all these other idiots buying guns.

 

[NontradCA]

The idea of an area or place being EXTREMELY SAFE is naive! Elementary schools are or should be the safest place for our kids and you seen what has happened in recent years.

You guys do what you want!!!! At the end of the day I have car insurance, home insurance, life insurance, alarm system and above all a CONCEALED WEAPON!!!!

I hope I don't need any of them, but when time comes I'll be ready. If I die or I get kill at least I did something about it rather than just be a HELPLESS VICTIM!

I survived two wars in six deployments, I'll be damn if some PSYCHO in my country tries to take advantage of me without me having a fighting chance! BOOM

Why are you yelling on the internet?

 

[rangerdad]

YELLING IN THE INTERNET?! LOL!!!

Think about what you just wrote: 50% casualty rate in a first combat incident? Does that mean that in every firefight 50% of the personnel gets kill? I think there is a 50% chance of each individual dying (YOU VS THEM), but 50% casualty rate....?!?! HA!

I suddenly lost the desire to debate or read any of your comments in this thread!!!!

Never bring out a weapon unless you are shooting to kill!!! (TRAINING IS PARAMOUNT)

Now I am heading to the funeral of 50% of my Marines and Soldiers that died in combat without my knowledge! (WHISPERING!)

 

[allantois]

YELLING IN THE INTERNET?! LOL!!!

Think about what you just wrote: 50% casualty rate in a first combat incident? Does that mean that in every firefight 50% of the personnel gets kill? I think there is a 50% chance of each individual dying (YOU VS THEM), but 50% casualty rate....?!?! HA!

I suddenly lost the desire to debate or read any of your comments in this thread!!!!

Never bring out a weapon unless you are shooting to kill!!! (TRAINING IS PARAMOUNT)

Now I am heading to the funeral of 50% of my Marines and Soldiers that died in combat without my knowledge! (WHISPERING!)

I can't possibly imagine what country we would live in if each time a cop was to bring out a weapon, it would result in a homicide. Most police officers actually never get to kill anyone in their careers.

 

[rangerdad]

We are not talking about cops. We talking about a civilian with a concealed weapon. The only time you should have the necessity to pull out your weapon is when you are in imminent danger and your life is at stake. Contrary to popular beliefs you shouldn't shoot to injure, or in the air to scare the perpetrator. You shoot to kill, and keep shooting until there is not more threat.

 

[IL Pre Med]

I'm going to chime in here and say that physician's shouldn't be armed. Considering the medical field is all about the preservation of human life I don't find it appropriate. Also, I've never heard of physicians getting seriously injured by armed patients, and if it's happened it definitely isn't prevalent enough to warrant the issuance of weapons to physicians. Just my 2 cents.

 

[rangerdad]

I'm going to chime in here and say that physician's shouldn't be armed. Considering the medical field is all about the preservation of human life I don't find it appropriate. Also, I've never heard of physicians getting seriously injured by armed patients, and if it's happened it definitely isn't prevalent enough to warrant the issuance of weapons to physicians. Just my 2 cents.

http://www.people.com/article/armed-doctor-gun-philadelphia-hospital-shooting

WOW! My head hurts reading this thread. LOL Nothing I can say without insulting your right to have an opinion. So I just will continue in this path of becoming a doctor fully knowing that there is job security with individuals like you in the World.

 

[deleted480308]

I'm going to chime in here and say that physician's shouldn't be armed. Considering the medical field is all about the preservation of human life I don't find it appropriate. Also, I've never heard of physicians getting seriously injured by armed patients, and if it's happened it definitely isn't prevalent enough to warrant the issuance of weapons to physicians. Just my 2 cents.

as a clarification, no one is talking about issuing guns to doctors, the question is if doctors should be denied their right to self-defense just because they are a doctor

 

[goft20]

Well yeah everyone needs arms.