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Should URM classification be continued?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Allopathic [ MD ]' started by Dr Rob, 04.02.12.

?

Should URM classification be continued?

  1. Yes

    145 vote(s)
    43.5%
  2. No

    188 vote(s)
    56.5%
  1. Dr Rob

    Dr Rob

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    I am sick of hearing stories of perfectly qualified white/asian applicants with 3.8/32 stats getting rejected from every single medical school while underqualified URM blacks/latinos with significantly lower stats get into top tiers. :mad: This affirmative action crap has to end. This is racism in its purest form. We need to take a stand against this injustice and fight for our spots in the medical school class. Who's with me?
  2. SU1989

    SU1989 bro doctor

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    in b4 :lock:

    It's not April Fool's Day anymore.
  3. theseeker4

    theseeker4 MS 3

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    If you are rejected with a 3.8 and a 32, your problem isn't your skin color.... What do you expect to get out of this thread that hasn't come out of the, oh, 20 previous threads over the past couple months with this same subject?
  4. wilberforce72

    wilberforce72

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    How exactly do you know that that person is qualified based on numbers? Remember, admissions is about WHO you are. Numbers are only a part of it. At my school, 80% of the application score is interview/EC/etc, while only 20% is numbers. And how exactly should we fight for spots? Boycott the med schools? How bout make yourself a better applicant?
  5. jippyslim

    jippyslim

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    Dude, this has been hashed and re-hashed so many times. First, you're wrong on a few points 1. Significantly lower stats wont get you into top-tiers regardless of race. 2. Schools will continue to form a diverse class even if affirmative action were to end. Stop crying and try to get the best gpa/MCAT you can.
    Last edited: 04.02.12
  6. plumazul

    plumazul ☮, ♥, & ♫ Gold Donor

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  7. Nymphicus

    Nymphicus kane o ke kai Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor

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  8. Neurosis

    Neurosis

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    Again with another URM thread...well at least this time it's a poll, right? :rolleyes:
  9. ppfizenm

    ppfizenm

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    That's enough OP, that's enough.
  10. ElleWoodsMD

    ElleWoodsMD

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    I'm always amused when someone who I assume is a member of the majority ( and gets most, if not all the benefits that come with it) complains about the "unfair advantages" affirmative action allegedly affords we fair minorities. To quote Chris Rock, "you had a 400-year head start, MF-er."
  11. flatearth22

    flatearth22

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    The OP is racist and everyone who voted "No" is also racist. You should all feel ashamed of yourselves.
  12. colombianguy

    colombianguy

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    im latino, i have a 30 on my MCAT 13 B 10 P and 7 in V, with a 3.85 gpa and i got interview at 5 schools and i only got accepted to 1 of my instate schools(got waitlisted to 2). I think i could have done a lot better on my MCAT if it wasnt because i have only been here in US for 6 years. I dont think its 100 percent fair that urm get an advantage, but u also have to consider that we have to go through different things in our life. i have worked since the moment i got to this country, i have had to mantain a job while going to school, i had to learn a new language which i still have a lot of difficulties with. For example, one of my interviews was at drexel (which i got rejected from), the school has an mcat average of 30 and a gpa average of 3.6. i am above the average for the school and i couldnt write the stupid essay that they give us at the begining of the interview cause i usually need a computer to correct all the mistakes that i make when i write. Still i am sure that i was better at science that half of the people at my interview day. In conclusion, it might not be fair to you, but it helps people that will make excellent doctor to at least have a chance to prove that they are just as good as any asian or white person.
  13. MayoorBust

    MayoorBust

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    Haters gonna hate.
  14. maybemed2013

    maybemed2013

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    I am sick of people complaining about URM 'taken' their spots.
  15. Ignatius M.D.

    Ignatius M.D.

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    ^A low verbal-high BS score for ESL students is quite different.

    OP, you seem really mad...

    [​IMG]
  16. ElleWoodsMD

    ElleWoodsMD

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    IDK if you're aware, but Puerto Ricans and Mexicans are the Latinos who get a significant URM boost. Everyone else is just...meh. Might explain your results.
  17. EnergyDrink

    EnergyDrink

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    Think of it from the point of view from admissions. Medical school admissions wants a strong class, not necessarily a class consisting of 32/3.8s, because they won't be able to draw on certain experiences. Medicine, like pretty much everything else in life, is about teamwork, and teamwork thrives when the team is diverse, so members can draw off more experiences and situations they've had in life to solve a problem. If every medical student story started with "One time I was studying Orgo in the library..." we'd have a very weak community.

    Yes, diversity can be comprised of more than race, but somethings can't. Do you think a class of 80% white, 15% Asian, and 5% Indian isn't racist? Get a grip.

    The downsides to this are that disadvantaged non-URMs go overlooked because of their race. But in my experience, admissions tend to look at the whole applicant, and disadvantaged people will be looked upon favorably.

    And I can't believe I have to say this for it to have the same effect, but I'm white.
  18. ppfizenm

    ppfizenm

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    Yes my ancestors who owned no slaves and came to this country poor as dirt after the slaves had been freed had every advantage right? Quite the 400 year head start.

    I am always amused when someone who I assume doesn't know anything about URM complains about others not recognizing affirmative action when the two aren't really connected. To quote George Bush "I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."
  19. Chir0nex

    Chir0nex

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    I'll preface this by saying that I am an URM.

    Personally I think that the classification should be stopped. Presumably the goal of the admissions office is to put together a class where each individual's scores and personal stories fits with what the school is looking for. Therefore, they should only be looking at the numbers and personal statement of each applicant (and interview) with no knowledge of race or other status.

    Now, if an URM feels that their personal experience has had an impact on their qualifications then this should be included in the personal statements. I find it absurd that some people can check the URM box and then never mention it in the context of the their life experience or how it bears on their application.

    Basically rather than make URM status a simple box to check the applicant should have to show how their experience has shaped their life and made it relevant.
  20. ElleWoodsMD

    ElleWoodsMD

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    I'm amused that you don't realize that descendants of certain immigrant groups benefit from a privilege that shall not be named here.
  21. ElleWoodsMD

    ElleWoodsMD

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    It's funny that people think minorities should be held to an egalitarian standard when just about everything is slanted against them overall.
  22. LondonBridge

    LondonBridge

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    I don't understand why everyone makes such a big deal about this...to the sour ORM's: nobody is taking your spots....if you want to get into medical school, work hard and get the highest scores you can. Don't knock the system for trying to make medicine a more diverse field.
  23. LondonBridge

    LondonBridge

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    :thumbup:
  24. AZOOZOO

    AZOOZOO

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    I think in a couple of decades, URM status would be not be considered anymore because of one reason: Miscegenation
  25. ppfizenm

    ppfizenm

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    I'm amused you don't realize that not all descendants of certain immigrant groups do. I am also amused at the way you don't recognize that there are poor white people in this country who are just disadvantaged as their minority counterparts and will never see the inside of a college except to clean it. I am amused at how you defend a policy that was meant to fix a situation decades ago but has so far failed to do much. I find it amusing that you ignore other groups not recognized as minorities but have there own problems to contend with that affect their admissions chances. I am amused at the way you brushed past the fact that you didn't know URM and affirmative action are meant to do two different things.
  26. colombianguy

    colombianguy

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    maybe u are the one that doesnt know or is not aware, i really dislike people like you making a comment like the one you just made, but its cool im going to post the new clasification for you so that next time you might want to post or make a comment, research a little bit more. its mostly anyone whi is underrepresented in medicine.

    On March 19, 2004, the AAMC Executive Committee adopted a clarification to its definition of "underrepresented in medicine" following the Supreme Court's decision in Grutter.

    The AAMC definition of underrepresented in medicine is:

    "Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."

    Adopted by the AAMC's Executive Council on June 26, 2003, the definition helps medical schools accomplish three important objectives:

    • a shift in focus from a fixed aggregation of four racial and ethnic groups to a continually evolving underlying reality. The definition accommodates including and removing underrepresented groups on the basis of changing demographics of society and the profession,
    • a shift in focus from a national perspective to a regional or local perspective on underrepresentation, and
    • stimulate data collection and reporting on the broad range of racial and ethnic self-descriptions.
    Before June 26, 2003, the AAMC used the term "underrepresented minority (URM)," which consisted of Blacks, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans (that is, American Indians, Alaska Natives, and Native Hawaiians), and mainland Puerto Ricans. The AAMC remains committed to ensuring access to medical education and medicine-related careers for individuals from these four historically underrepresented racial/ethnic groups.
  27. ElleWoodsMD

    ElleWoodsMD

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    :/

    I was trying to offer some insight, but you missed my point entirely. Full disclosure: I was working from knowledge of LSAC's policies (switching from legal focus to medicine), which don't really differ all that much from AAMC's. Maybe it's because you've only been in the US for six years and just don't know how it works, but certain minorities and their sub-groups get a higher preference over others. For example, Native Americans and African-Americans get the biggest boosts in law and medical school admissions because they have the lowest numbers of physicians. Puerto Ricans and Mexicans get the highest considerations among Latino applicants because their numbers are lowest among Latino physicians. Hope you understand now, and realize that I wasn't out to offend you. In short, all URM boosts aren't created equal. Congrats on your acceptance.
  28. Elevencents

    Elevencents

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    I concur.
  29. colombianguy

    colombianguy

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    :( i did miss your point. and thanks.:)
  30. plumazul

    plumazul ☮, ♥, & ♫ Gold Donor

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    :confused::confused: I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Let's compare it to my family's experiences. My abuelo (grandfather) served in WWII. He was in the army air corps; flew in a B-26. He had a purple heart and a "before Pearl Harbor" ribbon when he was discharged after the war ended. He decided to enter university on the GI bill, but the University of Texas wouldn't accept him, he was the wrong color. So he instead tried a local private where he was the victim of terrible discrimination. (one professor threw him out of the class because he was using shorthand to take notes, wtf?) Is this the kind of "disadvantaged" you are talking about? My father once took a standardized test while in an inner city public school in south Texas. He scored in the 99th percentile. Was he congratulated? Did he win an award? No, he was called to the office and questioned by three administrators about HOW he did it. They wanted to know what his "trick" was, since Hispanics just don't get scores like that without a "trick". Is this the kind of "disadvantaged" you are talking about? Do you really think this kind of mindset was changed in just the last 30 years??

    I've got a hundred more stories if you'd care to hear them. :D
  31. jippyslim

    jippyslim

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    I do believe an overall narrative, in context, is important, but i'm afraid this only window dressing. Schools take a range of factors, including race, into consideration in order to make a class that resembles the broader society (i'm sure you know this).

    While I don't subscribe to under/sub par performance, having a diverse class is wise policy. Whether you do it by checking a box or incorporating it into your narrative or both.
  32. ElleWoodsMD

    ElleWoodsMD

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    I know the difference between URM status and affirmative action. Don't really see how you arrived at the conclusion that I didn't. Being a black female who studied race and gender politics in undergrad, I think I get it, but thanks for the convoluted and uninformed lecture. I find it absolutely hilarious that you're comfortable with discussing affirmative action so condescendingly, despite not knowing that it's not a single policy, but rather, a set of them that have given minorities and women opportunities they wouldn't have been afforded otherwise. Title IX, anyone? Also, I find it hilarious that you've completely ignored one of the biggest affirmative action practices (for lack of a better word): legacy admissions. And I guess you're really going to make me say it, but I guess I have no choice. I'm referring to white privilege, and no, I'm not starting a debate on it. Just my opinion. I don't want to be that black girl who complains about it, but if we're going to hold things that benefit minorities under a microscope, we might as well take care of that, too.
    Last edited: 04.02.12
  33. Stumpyman

    Stumpyman

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    It's kind of sad that people get angry at the URM applicants.
  34. Finches

    Finches

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    Can you both please stop being amused at each other? Thanks.
  35. ElleWoodsMD

    ElleWoodsMD

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    Hey, now. I switched it to hilarious, since that kid decided to mock me.
  36. SunsFun

    SunsFun VICE president

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    [​IMG]

    Wow. I am pretty surprised so many (supposedly) intelligent people said no.
  37. Vesh

    Vesh

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    Just because your grandfather was subjected to terrible injustices doesn't mean he was the only one. One of my close friends is Hmong and his parents immigrated here a few decades ago from Cambodia/Laos during the Vietnam war because they were hours away from being killed. They moved here, worked numerous jobs, and still barely managed to support their children. I grew up in an extremely white suburban community and the Hmong people were constantly ridiculed and discriminated against. Fast forward to today; do you think that he gets a URM boost in his application? He has to write down Asian and suffer through the so called "ORM disadvantage". His cultural and racial background is just as unfortunate if not more so than other URM's in this country but he instead is a part of the ORM group and thus will have to compete with kids who had far greater opportunities.

    The point is that firstly you can't take anecdotes and use them as evidence. I'm sorry for what your grandfather went through, but I don't see how his struggles translate to and advantage for you? Yes there is obviously still racism in society today, but I don't think its so pronounced that AdComs across the country are seeing latino names on applications and just throwing them in the trash. Second, if you are going to offer this advantage to students, make sure it is inclusive. Offer it to all student who suffered disadvantages growing up and not only to student based on the color of their skin. I think what ppfizenm was trying to indicate was that there are plenty of white kids who have lived through extremely tough childhoods and suffer from many of the same obstacles as URM, but are limited to check Caucasian on their application.
  38. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Avoid Arrogance Lifetime Donor

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    Interesting. From my perspective, I'm shocked so many intelligent people support AA.
  39. SunsFun

    SunsFun VICE president

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    Because if you look at the aggregate data, statistically minorities face much greater hardship to get to the point where they can be successful even if comparing to majority applicants starting at the same socioeconomic level. There are tons of studies done that clearly show it. One that I can give you from the top of my head. Same exact resume with black-sounding and white-sounding names were sent out to different companies. White sounding names on average got several times more interview invites than black. And this is just a small tip of an iceberg.
  40. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Avoid Arrogance Lifetime Donor

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    Yes this is true--blacks also pay more in general for various products. The reasons you listed still do not justify AA. Each person has an individual struggle. No single group should receive a benefit
  41. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    Racism is what minorities are submitted to by society and people like you. If black people had a cushy life like many of the "qualified" applicants you speak of, they'd have identical stats. URM simply helps to level the playing field and not enough if you ask me. Medical schools should be required to have representation of each major race by the population % of each race.
    Last edited: 04.02.12
  42. mcloaf

    mcloaf SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    As long as there are lazy white people who'd rather make excuses than take responsibility for why they didn't perform better the URM hate will continue.
  43. flatearth22

    flatearth22

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    :laugh: at the idea of lowering %Asians in med school from 22 to 5 percent. The equilibrium of AA vs. Asian academic success is at a stable equilibrium right now....no need to change.
  44. Stumpyman

    Stumpyman

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    This would cause some serious chaos. Having some races get in with low-ish stats, and then lowering the Asian group to represent the population would cause a massive skewing of the averages (Asians will have 34+ MCATs, 3.7+ gpas, etc., and be rejected on a regular basis).
  45. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    Why not look at each person individually? Many black people do have cushy lives... it's ignorant to say that they don't. Yet it doesn't really matter, black people still get an affirmative action advantage even if they are billionaires. All while a poor white trash guy gets no real advantage. The real reason for AA is because medical schools and society value diversity in future doctors. So while it may not be entirely fair, I think it's here to stay (atleast in our lifetimes).
  46. flatearth22

    flatearth22

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    The silver lining of AA in medicine is that it doesn't really exist much after med school. Residencies and fellowships value merit and fit before they even consider diversity (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=465799). So if AA didn't exist then it would be theoretically tougher for med students to land competitive residencies because you'd be competing with 35% Asians or something crazy like that. More AA (like limiting each race to their respective representation in the US census) would actually make it easier to land competitive residencies because there would only be 5% Asians in med school. Of course, you would still have to get into med school (easier said than done).

    I think the idea of having more URM's in medicine is the hope that they will end up practicing primary care in undeserved areas treating their own race/ethnic group because non-URM's don't want to do that. So in a weird way, AA actually makes it easier for non-URM's to get that plastics/derm/ortho residency.
  47. NickNaylor

    NickNaylor Daisy the Dog

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    That and the oft-repeated idea that people tend to return to their communities to practice and work. For many minorities, those communities are highly underserved. URM, in a way, attempts to kill two birds with one stone.
  48. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    Because policies aren't made for individuals but rather groups. Schools can choose to reject black billionaires (as if there were that many). Schools don't have a gun against their head making them blindly accept black applicants. But as a matter of policy, it makes sense to have URM for black and hispanics. URM status targets BOTH socioeconomics AND race, which many people fail to acknowledge. And we do have the disadvantaged status for "white trash" that you speak of. Why don't we get threads about getting rid of disadvantaged status? After all, the white trash is less qualified than the 3.7/40 Asian, right? Only reason we don't get people gung-ho about it here is because it's easy to blame minorities, even if they make a fraction in most medical schools and the bulk are in HBCs.
  49. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    If you look at the statistics. Minorities aren't dramatically more likely to drop out of medical school (saw that it's 1% higher last time I checked) or perform much more poorly than their peers. Most of the older generation of doctors you see got in with stats below what the average D.O. student today has, so this fetishism for 40+ MCATs is really ludicrous.
  50. sliceofbread136

    sliceofbread136

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    The disadvantaged status should be put awhole lot higher than URM status if your reasoning is based on socioeconomics. But the only place disadvantaged status rly matters is for financial aid.

    I really think there should be more "affirmative action" for poor people than there is now.

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