About the ads

Sleep and 500k

Discussion in 'Sleep Medicine' started by CaymanIslander, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. SDN is a nonprofit organization. Services are made possible through the generous support of SDN members and sponsors. Thank you.
  1. CaymanIslander

    CaymanIslander

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14
    SDN 2+ Year Member

    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    So, can a sleep guy make 500k - 1M owning his own clinic....a sleep neurologist say?
  2. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time SDN Advisor

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Memphis TN
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    A busy sleep physician can make $200,000-$300,000 (usually closer to $200,000) from the practice of sleep medicine. A sleep neurologist, I speculate, could make in the higher range of that spectrum if he read frequent EEG's.

    If a sleep doc owns a 6-8 bed sleep lab (either as extension of his practice or as an independent diagnostic and testing facility), he could make $500,000 or more per year. However, this involves significant capital investment (it would take 1 million to start such a sleep lab) and I wouldn't call the income from this part of a physician's salary.

    To answer your question Cayman Islander, as a sleep neurologist you could reasonably expect to make $250,000, and you would have some investment opportunities available to you that could allow you to double your total income (or drive you to bankruptcy, if the sleep lab failed).
  3. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time SDN Advisor

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Memphis TN
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    One last thing I should point out- you will pay ordinary income taxes (including the self-employment tax) on all of that "investment income" if you organize the sleep lab as a LLC, chap s, or partnership (because you are a material participant and therefore won't be elgible to have the investment income taxed at the longterm capital gains rate of 15%). If you organize it as a c corp, the corp will be taxed at the corp rate for the income and then you will pay the 15% long term capital gains rate on anything you take home as a dividend. You could also take some salary from the c corp and pay regular ordinary income taxes on that.
  4. yaah

    yaah Boring Administrator

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2003
    Messages:
    27,512
    Location:
    Fixing in 10% neutral buffered formalin
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Physician SDN 10+ Year Member
    So I guess your flirtation with pathology lasted about an hour?
  5. DOCTORSAIB

    DOCTORSAIB Ophtho or bust!

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Messages:
    1,660
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 10+ Year Member
    :laugh:
  6. BrainWorks

    BrainWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    44
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Just wanted to know is this the current average salary or taking into account the March decision? :D

    Also, from many internet sites about salaries for neurologists - I see salaries from 190K to 340K. So, if you're a sleep neurologist, wouldn't you add to the above range (for example 240K to 400K+ --without owning multiple sleep labs)? Just curious on you're thoughts! Thanks.
  7. HCE

    HCE

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2007
    Messages:
    519
    Status:
    Non-Student
    SDN 7+ Year Member

    DoctorSaib and Yaah...I like the new avatar looks
  8. neurologist

    neurologist Schussing Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,001
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Physician Faculty SDN 10+ Year Member

    Look, there are about a million variables involved here -- it's not a question of simply giving a number. Location (i.e., supply/demand for services), nature of practice (academic, hospital employed, private practice, group, solo), percentage of job that is actually sleep medicine (unusual to have 100%), number of studies read, how the practice determines salaries, practice ownership of ancillary services (lab, MRI, etc) and so forth.

    I can tell you from being on the interview trail that neurologists can make between $100K (if they are not particularly motivated/efficient) and about $350K if they stay busy and all the stars align correctly. A good average would be about $200K. $400K for a neurologist would be pretty darn amazing under any circumstances. Neurologists who do lots of procedures, whether sleep, EMG, interventional pain, or whatever, will make more than neurologists who see headache and stroke patients all day.
  9. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time SDN Advisor

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Memphis TN
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    In addition to the variables listed by neurologist, there is also the variable of which part of the country you live in. Although the CMS decision comes out in March, some regional Medicare carriers have already made a local coverage decision AGAINSt home testing, and home testing for osa will not be covered in many states.
  10. BrainWorks

    BrainWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    44
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    So this means, sleep studies will probably still be in demand vs. home testing at least for Medicare pts? Also, which regions have local Medicare carriers decided against it (Northeast vs. South, etc.)?

    Also, thanks everyone for your posts! :)
  11. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time SDN Advisor

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Memphis TN
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    States in which Medicare will not cover home testing for OSA:

    American Samoa, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Guam, Hawaii, Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Marina Islands, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nevada New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York (with the exception of Queens County), Ohio, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wisconsin.
  12. neurologist

    neurologist Schussing Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,001
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Physician Faculty SDN 10+ Year Member


    where are you getting this info from? do you have a link you could provide? I can't seem to find anything this specific . . . Thanks!
  13. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time SDN Advisor

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Memphis TN
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 5+ Year Member
  14. BrainWorks

    BrainWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    44
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 2+ Year Member
  15. neurologist

    neurologist Schussing Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,001
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Physician Faculty SDN 10+ Year Member
    Yes, but that's also the case for every other specialty as well. Thanks to our country's byzantine medical system, reimbursement varies from place to place.
  16. USIMGgrad

    USIMGgrad Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2003
    Messages:
    199
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Very interesting that Wisconsin is on the list, since the only ENT run sleep fellowship is located in Milwaukee.
  17. kumar28

    kumar28 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2002
    Messages:
    340
    Location:
    Boston
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 10+ Year Member
    what about psychiatry sleep medicine..what do they range??
  18. WallyWalrus

    WallyWalrus

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2008
    Messages:
    8
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=sleep neurologist&l1=

    You can type in various zipcodes to get an idea of how the salary differs from place to place.

    You can also type in other specialties to get an idea of how much they pay; however be careful not to type in something that could be misconstrued as a technician's job, e.g. "sleep" or "sleep medicine" is too broad. If a number looks abnormally low (or inflated), look below at 'related jobs' to get a better idea.

    :cool:
  19. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time SDN Advisor

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Memphis TN
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    $200-275,000.

    For a salaried position, you'd probably start off in the $200-225,000 range.
  20. Sleepygator

    Sleepygator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    24
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I practice full time sleep, although my primary residency is psychiatry. However, a few of my friends from psych residency, who did not do any fellowships, are getting paid more than me for doing straight psychiatry. One is child psych and the other two are general adult psych.

    I believe Dr. Rack has already explained that doing a sleep fellowship is not going to automatically lead to 500,000 per year....at least without getting a chunk of the technical component. If you were to do only the professional component, the only way to approach making 500,000 would be to spend all day doing PSG interps.
  21. critter jenkins

    critter jenkins

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    O.K. one more time. Estimated income enhancement for a clinical neurologist who is also boarded in sleep medicine? Without owning your own stand-alone lab.
  22. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time SDN Advisor

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Memphis TN
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    I would guess that neurologists who are boarded in sleep and spend 1/2 of the time doing general neurology and 1/2 of the time doing sleep could expect to typically make in the range of $200-$300K
  23. Faebinder

    Faebinder Slow Wave Smurf

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    3,557
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Seriously, if you dont like the field, don't waste the extra time.. you can make just as much reading EEGs and doing EMGs. Leave the field to someone who wants to expand it and is interested in it :)
  24. neurologist

    neurologist Schussing Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,001
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Physician Faculty SDN 10+ Year Member
    I'd second that.

    If you're looking for maximizing salary, go into rads, subspec surgery, or plastics.

    Pretty much anything involving neurology, while it is not totally bottom-of-the-barrel salary-wise, is also not anywhere near the top.
  25. Joanhabety

    Joanhabety

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    26
    Status:
    Non-Student
    Yes, I think so.

Share This Page


About the ads